House of Commons Hansard #12 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was farmers.

Topics

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

10:10 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

All those opposed will please say nay.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

10:10 a.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

10:10 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

10:10 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Call in the members.

(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the following division:)

Division No. 4Government Orders

10:55 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I declare the motion carried.

PrivilegeGovernment Orders

10:55 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Chuck Strahl Canadian Alliance Fraser Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege arising from the motion brought forward by the government House leader in relation to Bill C-2. The government brought forward that notice of motion yesterday and we have now dealt with it in the House.

This is the second parliament in a row where the very first bill introduced by the government has been time allocated. A restriction on debate has already been brought forward by the minister in a very inappropriate way. I would like to explain what I think should happen in the follow up to this.

The use of closure and time allocation under this government has reached, I would argue, a disturbing and critical point of frequency. In the last parliament Bill C-2, the CPP legislation, the very first bill debated by parliament, was time allocated after only a few hours of debate. In this parliament the very first bill, the pro forma Bill C-2, again has been time allocated after a few hours of debate.

It is the same government, the same minister, and I would argue the same misuse of authority by using time allocation in this extremely unorthodox way.

On October 8, 1997, the hon. member for Winnipeg—Transcona raised a question of privilege regarding the closing off of debate on Bill C-2 in the last parliament. The member argued that our right to adequately debate was increasingly being violated by the government's rush to judge how much time was needed to debate a particular piece of legislation.

Beauchesne's sixth edition, citation 3, outlines some elements of the Constitution Act and our system of government which I believe are relevant to this very point. It states:

More tentative are such traditional features as respect for the rights of the minority, which precludes a Government from using to excess the extensive powers that it has to limit debate or to proceed in what the public and the Opposition might interpret as unorthodox ways.

Going back to the argument presented on October 8, 1997, by the member for Winnipeg—Transcona, he suggested that the Chair intervene on behalf of the collective rights of parliamentarians to ensure that the traditional features as outlined in the citation I just read are upheld.

While the Speaker ruled not to intervene at that time, I would argue that since then and since we are embarking on the 69th record time allocation motion by the government, the moment has arrived to declare the measures imposed by the government today as excessive and unorthodox as described by citation 3 of Beauchesne's.

The case has been made that the Chair possesses no discretionary authority to refuse to put a motion of time allocation. I do not agree with this claim. I will prove, I believe, that the Speaker does possess the authority to refuse to accept this motion.

On May 2, 2000, during a discussion of the rule of time allocation with the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, the then Clerk of the House of Commons, Robert Marleau, responded to a question regarding the Speaker's authority to protect the minority in the manner described earlier. The Clerk said:

—it exists intrinsically in the role of the Speakership all the time—where there could be the tyranny of either side. It could be the tyranny of the majority or the tyranny of the minority.

At a subsequent meeting on May 4, 2000, the Clerk suggested that with time allocation the Speaker is less likely to intervene. There is a reference to this on page 570 of the House of Commons Procedure and Practice . However, the Clerk stopped short of suggesting that the Speaker would never intervene. He used as an extreme example that if the government time allocated every bill at every stage the Speaker might intervene, quite properly.

My interpretation of what the Clerk has said is that there exists a limit to what a majority government can do with respect to time allocation. The interpretation is supported by the citation I mentioned earlier from Beauchesne's, which states that a government is precluded from using to excess the extensive powers it has to limit debate.

The Clerk used the extreme example in his response because he knows it is not up to the Clerk to establish the limit to this unorthodox behaviour. We know, for example, that the 68 times the government has used time allocation apparently was not too many times. How many is enough?

Yesterday the government House leader gave notice of his intention to move the 69th motion, and now we have a new parliament and a new Speaker. I would argue we are at an epiphanal moment here for this new parliament.

I would suggest to the Speaker that 69 motions moved within seven years for the sole purpose of muzzling the opposition on controversial legislation is excessive. It is unorthodox and it should not be tolerated.

On page 369 of Marleau and Montpetit there is a reference to an intervention by the Speaker on a time allocation related tactic used by the government. It describes how Speaker Fraser ruled on the government tactic of skipping over routine proceedings in order to go to orders of the day. As we are all aware, that tactic, if it had been allowed, would secure for the government the opportunity to move time allocation at will.

While Speaker Fraser had ruled such a motion in order on April 13, 1987, page 369 references another ruling where the Speaker ruled out of order a similar motion only a few months before. In other words, Speaker Fraser used his judgment on each and every situation and ruled accordingly.

In other words, an activity that might be completely in order today would be completely out of order in another set of circumstances. The Speaker has to use his or her judgment in the chair to rule these motions appropriate, out of order, unorthodox, or in excess. It is within the power of the Speaker to make that ruling and I would appeal again to the Speaker today on that basis. As Speaker Fraser demonstrated, a Speaker can intervene and should intervene when a government abuses its power and the rules of the House.

The rule governing time allocation can be found in Standing Order 78. Standing Order 78 provides for more than one day of allocated debate if the government never exercises this option, even on time allocation.

The government, by only allocating the minimum amount of time to debate each stage of a controversial bill, prevents the opposition from doing its job in the House of Commons. It prevents the opposition from enlisting public support for its point of view.

The right of an opposition to raise the profile of an issue in debate is one of the indispensable principles that make up parliamentary law and parliamentary procedure. These principles are described in Beauchesne's sixth edition:

To protect a minority and restrain the improvidence or tyranny of a majority; to secure the transaction of public business in an orderly manner; to enable every Member to express opinions within limits necessary to preserve decorum and prevent an unnecessary waste of time; to give abundant opportunity for the consideration of every measure, and to prevent any legislative action being taken upon sudden impulse.

Parliament is fundamentally about debate. It is also about the right to dissent in a civilized manner. Genuine political opposition is a necessary attribute of democracy, of tolerance and of trust in the ability of citizens to resolve differences by peaceful means. That is why we come here to debate issues. The existence and the tolerance of an opposing point of view are essential to the functioning of parliament and to the functioning of a modern democracy. Speaker Fraser put it this way:

It is essential to our democratic system that controversial issues should be debated at reasonable length so that every reasonable opportunity shall be available to hear the arguments, pro and con, and that reasonable delaying tactics should be permissible to enable opponents of a measure to enlist public support for their point of view.

The Right Hon. John Diefenbaker, in an address to the Empire Club in Toronto in 1949, had this to say:

If parliament is to be preserved as a living institution, His Majesty's Loyal Opposition must fearlessly perform its functions. The reading of history proves that freedom always dies when criticism ends.

In 1967 a distinguished parliamentarian, the late Stanley Knowles, added this comment to the debate:

I submit, therefore, that you do not have full political democracy let alone the economic as well as political democracy unless you include a full and unquestioned recognition of the rights and functions of the opposition to the government of the day. Only in this way can you protect the rights of minorities. Only in this way can you make sure that the force of public opinion will be brought to bear on the legislative process.

One of the reasons an opposition exists is to some day replace the government. The opposition should conduct itself in parliament, so as to persuade the people of the country that it could be an improvement on the government of the day.

Our system of government works best when there is a change of government at reasonable intervals. However, if the government continues to silence the opposition at every turn, the opposition will never be able to use parliamentary debate to persuade the people of Canada. While the rights of the opposition are immediately and most visibly at stake here in this debate, ultimately the threat is to democratic rights and freedoms generally.

I would like to make a couple of suggestions to the Chair. First, perhaps it is time for the Chair to seriously consider the amount of authority and the amount of discretion that is available to him while he sits in that important position. The next time a motion to cut off debate is introduced prematurely in the House, I would argue it is time for the Speaker to look the other way, to not recognize the government House leader, and to say it is inappropriate, too early, not right, to stop the debate so early in this parliament.

I hope you consider that as an option, Mr. Speaker. If it does not happen soon, early in this parliament, we will get set in a pattern, as we have already seen, where the very first bill is time allocated and where we are restricted in debate on the opposition's side. Again we are unable to do our jobs in proposing alternate forms of government to the people of Canada.

My second suggestion is that the government should seriously consider reforming the House in a meaningful way. The Prime Minister should stop referring to members as voting machines, as stone statues doing his bidding in the House of Commons.

I would argue from this point forward that maybe the best you could do for the opposition, Mr. Speaker, is to delay the moving of a motion on time allocation, at least to use your discretion to delay it for another day.

Every time the government House leader brings in a motion of time allocation, he brings in the minimum amount of debate. He closes off debate after one day. He could give more. He could give two. He could give three days and limit debate. He could allow for an ample discussion. However he uses the minimum amount of debate every time to stifle the opposition and stifle debate in the House.

I appeal to you in your position in the chair, Mr. Speaker, that you have the authority and the support of the House to use your discretion to give democracy a greater chance in the House. I would urge you to do it from this point forward.

PrivilegeGovernment Orders

11:05 a.m.

Glengarry—Prescott—Russell Ontario

Liberal

Don Boudria LiberalLeader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, I wish that the Leader of the Opposition would listen attentively to what I am about to say. I cannot refer to the presence or absence of anyone, but I really hope he listens.

I am responding to what has been said by the opposition House leader. I know that those who do not want the bill to pass and have so indicated wish for me to dispense with what I have to say. Perhaps this is a way of getting themselves out of the embarrassing situation in which they have placed themselves.

PrivilegeGovernment Orders

11:05 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Monte Solberg Canadian Alliance Medicine Hat, AB

Let us put closure on his speech.

PrivilegeGovernment Orders

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Don Boudria Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

I think I have just heard the answer to what I have alleged and it is definitely in the affirmative. It sounded a lot like a plea of guilt over there.

Today the opposition is saying that there is a question of privilege. Of course there is no such issue before the House. This would be at best a point of order if it were valid.

The Chair is asked today to rule on the so-called “unorthodox behaviour of the government in having used time allocation at second reading of a bill on the third day that it is being debated in the House of Commons”.

Need I remind the House that in the U.K. House, for instance, every bill is time allocated to one day by definition at second reading, time allocated to around an hour at third reading, and now under the new parliamentary reform in the U.K. every bill will be time allocated in committee under what is called programming.

If using time allocation is unorthodox then I say a number of parliaments must be unorthodox. I will give an example of another parliament, more particularly the legislative assembly of the province of Alberta.

This issue has occurred pursuant to our standing orders. This procedure exists in our standing orders and has existed for some time. Yesterday I gave notice of my intention to move this motion today. Not once was it challenged at the time that the notice was provided to the House.

Today the motion was moved, and only after the motion was voted on, only after the point became moot, did the hon. member actually raise it as an issue.

PrivilegeGovernment Orders

11:10 a.m.

An hon. member

So what.

PrivilegeGovernment Orders

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Don Boudria Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

The hon. member across argues so what, so what if the rules are being bypassed this way. I would like to tell the House about the precedence of time allocation. I ask all colleagues to listen attentively to the issue of Bill 19, the school amendment act in the province of Alberta where closure was used at second reading, at committee and at third reading. Do you know which House leader was doing this, Mr. Speaker?

What about the seniors benefit act in the province of Alberta where closure was used at second reading and at committee? This procedure has to be correct. Do you know who used it, Mr. Speaker?

What about the much despised bill 11 of the province of Alberta? Do you know who time allocated that bill at every stage, Mr. Speaker? You would be right in guessing that it is the same person, the person who is the leader of the party that is now raising this issue in the House of Commons.

In the province of Alberta closure was used at every stage to close down kindergarten in that province. Do you know who the house leader was who used that procedure, Mr. Speaker?

All these things have one element in common. The person who is the Leader of the Opposition today in this House moved those motions in 100% of the occasions. Surely the person across must have been democratically minded when he did all that. Heaven forbid that he was anything else.

There are three things I bring to the attention of the House. First, proper notice was given of the use of time allocation. Second, it was the third day of debate at second reading on the issue. Third, those today who are saying that time allocation should not be used should put a giant mirror in front of themselves.

PrivilegeGovernment Orders

11:10 a.m.

Bloc

Michel Gauthier Bloc Roberval, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to add my voice to that of my colleague from the Canadian Alliance. I am concerned that the arguments put forth by the government House leader relate to behaviours exhibited in the Alberta legislature, not here in the House of Commons.

The debate must be put back in its proper perspective. Let us look at what is going on here in the House of Commons.

Let me simply remind the government House leader that, before throwing stones in the neighbour's backyard, he should look at the figures for the sessions during which he has been in charge of the business of this House.

The hon. member is right on target when he stresses the importance of the bill before us, in this second day of debate. We have had one day of debate, one hour yesterday, in the afternoon, and this morning the government is moving time allocation.

So, the first argument to the effect that this is the third day of debate is completely inaccurate. In fact, there has been one day of debate, one hour at the end of the day yesterday and today the decision has been made to move time allocation.

This is totally unacceptable, because the bill before us more or less seeks to restore and review the employment insurance program which, in recent years, has aroused very strong criticism from people in all regions of Quebec and Canada.

Moreover, this bill follows a government commitment dating back to the last election campaign. People have a right to know that what triggered an extremely important debate in Quebec and a commitment by the Prime Minister and most of his big guns in Quebec is now being debated in the House of Commons for a few hours, because of a gag order.

Now we are being asked, after a few hours of debate, to put an end to the discussions. The government is in such a rush to get its hand officially on the $30 billion belonging to the taxpayers—

PrivilegeGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

An hon. member

That's the real reason.

PrivilegeGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

Bloc

Michel Gauthier Bloc Roberval, QC

—the government is in such a rush to legalize the holdup of the employment insurance fund—

PrivilegeGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

An hon. member

That's the real problem.

PrivilegeGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

Bloc

Michel Gauthier Bloc Roberval, QC

—the government is in such a rush to follow up on the commitments it made half-heartedly during the campaign that it wants to stop talking about them.

In certain cases, those promises have had the effect of misleading people in need of employment insurance. They were led to believe that the government would be open to bringing in changes to put an end to unfair treatment. The government claimed to be concerned about the unemployed and those with major social problems caused by government funding cuts. This is what people were promised during the campaign. Today, after one day of debate—could we say one day plus one hour—the government wants to end the discussion.

The people of all of Canada, and particularly the people of Quebec, to whom these commitments were made, have a right to know that today the government wants to muzzle the members of the House of Commons, prevent them from discussing these vital matters, prevent them from raising here the many cases in their ridings reported to them daily over the past few years by people who are suffering because of the government's appetite and never-ending desire to pocket money that belongs to someone else. That is reality.

I would remind hon. members, and I support my Canadian Alliance colleague on this, that the Liberal government has changed, but changed for the worse.

I would point out that, between 1968 and 1972, under the Trudeau government—and these figures are meant for you, Mr. Speaker, and I hope they will guide you in your ruling—during the 28th parliament, the ratio of time allocation motions to the number of sitting days was 0.3%. This means that, at the time, for 0.3% of sitting days, debate was held under a time allocation motion imposed by the government.

In the last parliament, for 7.7% of sitting days, there was a threat to cut off debate, which was held under a time allocation motion.

In the sessions under Mr. Trudeau, between 1968 and 1972 and between 1974 and 1979, time allocation was imposed in the case of 0.9% of the bills introduced, that is 4%. That is the percentage. In other words, time allocation, as we are facing now, was invoked in the case of 4% of the bills introduced under the Trudeau government.

In the last parliament, under this government, the figure was not 0.9% or 4%. Of all the bills tabled in this House, 21.6% were passed under time allocation.

PrivilegeGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

An hon. member

Shameful.

PrivilegeGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

Bloc

Michel Gauthier Bloc Roberval, QC

When my colleague speaks of a threat to democracy, when debate on 21% of the bills introduced in this House end in time allocation, we are entitled to ask where the government is headed with this.

The ratio of time allocation to bills receiving royal assent was 1.3% under Trudeau, 6.3% in his third mandate, 16% under the Conservative Prime Minister and 11% under Trudeau-Turner at the time. How many times was time allocation invoked under the Liberals in the last session? We are not talking about 1%, 3% or 6% but 30%. Thirty per cent of bills passed by this House were subject to time allocation.

Seriously, how can citizens be expected to respect the work we do in the House? How can they be expected to respect members who are fresh from an election campaign and have promised to review a bill which has such a negative impact on Quebecers and Canadians?

How can they be expected to take seriously a government that promised right and left that it would sort out the employment insurance issue and that said it had not done so before the election because the Bloc Quebecois had blocked the bill, when in fact it was introduced just before the end of the session?

How can members of the public be expected to respect a government that allows only one day of debate so that it can officially get its hands on $30 billion belonging to them? How can we be expected to respect a parliament in which 30% of the bills passed were subject to time allocation? How can we talk about democracy when the primary objective of the government opposite is to prevent members on this side of the House from expressing their views on something as fundamental as employment insurance?

I too ask the Chair to keep a critical eye on the government's behaviour in the future. It is too late now, because, once again, we have just voted. The government brought in a time allocation motion. We will no longer be able to debate employment insurance in the House because after one day the government has decided that it has heard enough.

This is a disgrace. I am asking the Chair to try to remind the government that it is engaged in an extremely dangerous exercise, which consists in gradually eliminating what is left of the democratic process in parliament.

The government is not only arrogant because of its strong majority, it also no longer tolerates, in a debate like this one, the diverging views expressed by the opposition. Electronic voting will soon be introduced in the House. Perhaps the whips will rise to vote on behalf of members of parliament. We will become mere pawns in this place and we will no longer be allowed to talk or to vote. We will no longer be able to remind the government that it made promises to people and that it is not fulfilling them.

I want to tell the government House leader that Quebecers will remember that, during the election campaign, the government promised to tone down the provisions of the Employment Insurance Act. Quebecers will remember that the House leader and his government took steps to ensure that the real issues would not be debated and solved, and that they have given official sanction to their holdup of the employment insurance fund. This is unacceptable.

PrivilegeGovernment Orders

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Bill Blaikie NDP Winnipeg—Transcona, MB

Mr. Speaker, I thought I might assist the Chair by reflecting on some of the arguments that have been made so far.

It is said that politics makes strange bedfellows. This is no less true of procedural arguments when we find the Alliance House leader citing myself, the Bloc House leader citing Pierre Trudeau, and finally, even more interestingly, the government House leader citing the Leader of the Opposition and seeking refuge in the actions of the Leader of the Opposition when he was in the Alberta legislature for what the government is doing today.

This is certainly the strangest of the arguments that we have heard, because it may well be the case that the Leader of the Opposition had an affinity for closure when he was in the Alberta legislature. When it comes to closure one could say of almost all governments that we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God when it comes to time allocation and closure, particularly those who have had the experience of government.

However, two wrongs do not make a right and a hundred wrongs do not make a right. Every introduction of time allocation and closure has to be judged on its merits That is what we are asking the Chair to do. There is time allocation that comes after lengthy debate and there is time allocation that comes after insignificant or insufficient debate.

I believe that what we have developed in this parliament, which I think is grounds for the frustration we find here today, is a tradition of introducing time allocation after insufficient debate. Major measures are introduced in the House but the government is very impatient. It would have been unthinkable at one time, as the House leader for the Bloc pointed out, for something as significant as this to be time allocated after only a day or two of debate.

Debate is not something to be avoided in this place. Some may have noticed that we have on the wall out there in the NDP part of the lobby a quote by the former dean of this House, the member for Winnipeg North Centre, Stanley Knowles, who said on December 10, 1968, probably in a debate about procedural reform or on a point of order:

Debate is not a sin, a mistake, an error or something to be put up with in parliament. Debate is the essence of parliament.

All the opposition asks is that when we deem it appropriate, we be allowed to debate things for a sufficient period of time. What we are asking for in this parliament is certainly not a pattern of obstruction.

I remind the Chair that yesterday a bill of 900 pages in length passed this House in one day of debate and went to committee, just as the government asked. So this is not a pattern of the opposition saying that the government cannot do its business, that we will tie up the house of Commons and nothing is going to happen. That is not what we are talking about here. We are talking about one bill, a very significant bill having to do with changes in employment insurance, and various opposition parties are saying that they want to debate it a little while longer, that they have some concerns they want to put on the table.

When another bill, a significant piece of legislation in anyone's judgment, Bill C-8, the financial services sector legislation or whatever it is called, which is, as I said, 900 pages long, is debated in this House for one day and sent to committee, there is no pattern of obstruction there.

I believe, as I have argued before, that the Chair does have and should exercise the power to restrain governments that are time allocation happy, shall we say, and this is certainly a government that falls into that category.

It makes it all the more ironic that the government House leader should cite what happens in Westminster. Westminster is an entirely different situation, but if the government wants to talk about Westminster, then let us talk about the power that the Speaker has at Westminster when it comes to time allocation. We only got one side of the story from the government House leader. I do not think we should get too much into citing Westminster. We have our own traditions in this place, but I think we can learn from Westminster in the same way that we can learn from other parliaments.

We have our own traditions here. We had a tradition in the House that where there was a desire for lengthy debate on a particular bill, that kind of debate was permitted. That tradition has been allowed to erode over several parliaments. This government takes it for granted that it has the right to exercise its perceived right to bring in time allocation after only a day or two of debate and it does not expect to even receive any trouble for doing so.

So, Mr. Speaker, you do have something to consider here. Unfortunately, I think the point is well taken that you cannot do anything about time allocation on this particular bill because the point of privilege was introduced after the vote. Perhaps it should have been introduced before so that you would have had the opportunity to rule on this particular time allocation, because you really cannot rule on time allocation in general. You do have to rule on time allocation specifically. This will, I think, make it difficult for the Chair in this particular circumstance.

However, I have every confidence that we will be here again. Perhaps we will be here before a vote is taken or at the moment at which a motion for time allocation is introduced, which would give the Chair more opportunity to say, depending on the circumstances, that it is a motion he is not going to hear at that particular time because he does not believe the House has been given sufficient time for debate on that particular matter.

Finally, it does not surprise me that the government does not want to have a great deal of debate on this. Maybe it does not want Canadians to know in any great detail, thanks to the speeches by opposition members, just what is in the bill and what is not in the bill. Maybe it is embarrassed by the fact that it has been literally robbing the unemployed for years and years to pay for its surplus. It has been on the backs of the unemployed and at the expense of the benefits that once would have gone to unemployed people that the government has achieved its so-called fiscal successes. Perhaps that is something that it would rather not talk about. In that context, we fully understand the guilt that has driven the government to this procedural extreme.

PrivilegeGovernment Orders

11:30 a.m.

Progressive Conservative

Peter MacKay Progressive Conservative Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS

Mr. Speaker, having listened to all of the participants in this particular question of privilege, there is much wisdom in what has been said on this side of the House, the opposition side of the House.

The greatest irony of all is that the government House leader made many if not all of the same submissions when he was a member of the opposition. I want to refer to a document that was made public on January 19, 1993. It reads as follows:

Canadians, including those who are elected to serve in Parliament, expect the House of Commons not merely to discuss openly the problems of the nation, but also to advance solutions. They expect the Commons to explore Canada's problems rationally and to establish policies for resolving them. These expectations are not being met.

The document further states:

As a result, debate on controversial legislation is usually characterized by negativism, unnecessary repetitiveness and even destructive oratorical pyrotechnics. This is the inevitable result of depriving Members of the meaningful role for which they were elected.

The final quote reads:

At present, reports to the House and debates are at the whim of the Government leading to a lack of coherence and public involvement in the discussion of these important issues.

This document, which bears on its cover, the distinguished name of the government House leader, was entitled “Reviving Parliamentary Democracy: The Liberal Plan for House of Commons and Electoral Reform”.

The words of the government House leader have completely reversed his position of not so many years ago. Obviously there was a time in his life when he had greater respect for democracy and for this institution, which Canadians are looking to at this critical time to become relevant, an institution that would allow all members of parliament to take part in meaningful debate.

To suggest that the bill that is now before the House is not important enough to extend by a few hours the debate that is to take place, is ludicrous. It is insulting to Canadians.

This legislation, which the government now diminishes by bringing in time allocation, was important enough to dangle in front of the electorate just prior to the election call. Let the record show that the bill, had it been so important then, could have passed through the House of Commons before the election. There was significant support for that legislation. There still is support for the legislation with some possible changes that might take place at committee.

The excessive use of time allocation, which members on the opposition side find tremendously offensive, is again something that the government House leader used to rail against while in opposition. He has gone to great lengths to point out what other members and, in particular, the Alliance leader did while he was a house leader in the provincial legislature. It struck me that he was almost jealous that the Alliance House leader had taken the use of time allocation to a new level that he has not yet achieved.

Using time allocation 69 times obviously indicates that the government House leader is a bit trigger happy. He has done this at the earliest possible opportunity on this important legislation. My colleague from Winnipeg—Transcona said that 100 wrongs do not make a right but certainly 69 wrongs do not make a right. We should look at each and every case on its merits and on its individual aspects when it comes to the legislation itself.

I would urge you, Mr. Speaker, to take the following question into consideration in your learned deliberations of the issue. What is the rush in this particular instance? What is the presiding urgency of getting this issue through the House at breakneck speed?

PrivilegeGovernment Orders

11:35 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Chuck Strahl Canadian Alliance Fraser Valley, BC

They don't have a committee to send it to.

PrivilegeGovernment Orders

11:35 a.m.

Progressive Conservative

Peter MacKay Progressive Conservative Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS

The opposition House leader makes a very valid point. The committee, which would receive this particular bill, has not even been comprised. It is absolutely perverse that we would rush the bill through so that it would be held in abeyance. It would be nebulously floating out there somewhere in never-never land waiting for the committee to be comprised.

I think we have to look at all the factual circumstances here. The government House leader has jumped the gun. He has brought in time allocation, and I will not use a vulgar analogy about why dogs do certain things to themselves, but he is doing it simply because he can. It makes one wonder if in fact the time that he spent in opposition has left him with some deep psychological sense of insecurity or maybe he spent a lot of time hanging around in a gym locker when he was a kid because he is bullying the House of Commons. That is what is happening.

In simple terms, the government House leader is taking advantage of the rules because he can. There is no need whatsoever for the government House leader to bring in time allocation on this bill and in many other instances where he has exercised that discretion.

Mr. Speaker, I do not want to prolong this. I understand that you will consider the arguments that have been presented. I believe that it was quoted by the Bloc House leader that 30% of the bills that we have seen passed over the past seven years have been time allocated. I would suggest that the percentage is an outrageous proportion when one considers that the importance of these bills are discussed in this place.

The role of each and every individual in the Chamber is to have an opportunity to stand up and debate legislation. If we want Canadians to have faith in this institution and in the relevance of parliament, we must be able to debate intelligently and to make suggestions, not just to take a wrecking ball approach but to put forward thoughtful suggestions and thoughtful input into legislation.

It is a pre-emptive strike by the government to bring in time allocation on the bill when there is ample time to discuss it. There is obviously no urgency for the government to have the bill passed through the House in this instance.

PrivilegeGovernment Orders

11:35 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I have listened attentively, as all of you have, to this question of privilege raised by the member for Fraser Valley, and subsequently followed by the government House leader, the hon. member for Roberval, the member for Winnipeg—Transcona, and finally the member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough. I know you would all recognize that in each instance those members who spoke were all House leaders of our respective five political parties in this 37th parliament.

I believe the issue has been made quite clear through the interventions of the various points of view, the arguments and the suggestions put forward to the Chair for deliberation. I would suggest that unless members have some new element to bring to the attention of the House, I would like to take this matter under advisement at this time.

PrivilegeGovernment Orders

11:40 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Chuck Strahl Canadian Alliance Fraser Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, the reason this issue was brought up today was that we were caught in a catch 22 in the last parliament. We asked to raise the issue of time allocation when the government had given notice of motion to bring it forward. The Chair ruled that we could not raise it at that time because the government had not followed through on its intention. In other words, we were told to wait until the motion was introduced and voted on and then we could deal with it. However, once it had been voted on, the House had expressed its opinion and therefore the Chair could not rule on it.

The reason the issue has been raised today in this manner is so the Speaker will be able to get his head around it for the next time. I know this was ruled on today, but you can understand the dilemma that we in the opposition end up in. A motion is put forward by the government but we are not allowed to speculate on anticipated actions of the government, therefore the Chair will not receive concerns about time allocation because the government has not moved it. Once it has moved it, it is too late.

Mr. Speaker, this issue is for the next time. This whole discussion today is about asking the Speaker to use his discretion for the next time.

PrivilegeGovernment Orders

11:40 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The Chair has tried to demonstrate some patience and some generosity with regard to the interventions. I do recognize the seriousness of this question of privilege. The fact that we are so early into this new parliament, and for all the reasons and those mentioned previously, I will take this matter under advisement.