House of Commons Hansard #15 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was companies.

Topics

Eldorado Nuclear Limited Reorganization And Divestiture ActGovernment Orders

12:30 p.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to enter the debate on Bill C-3. Most of the country is seized with the issue of energy as we speak. Many homeowners and small businesses are reeling with the shock and the horror of the rising, out of control, skyrocketing fuel prices, so it is timely that we are having this debate now.

It is timely but maybe not fitting, given the content of the bill. We see Bill C-3 as the death rattle of a national dream. There was a time when Canadians believed that the federal government had some role to play in looking after the interests of ordinary Canadians in terms of access to energy.

In 1975, the minority Trudeau government, held up by the David Lewis NDP, saw fit to enter into the energy industry with some presence, whether it was as a watchdog or a producer. It saw that the whole oil and gas industry was owned by offshore interests.

We really did not know if Canadians were getting gouged. We did not know if we were paying a fair market price or a grossly inflated price. Given that Canada is, first, geographically challenged in that it is huge and, second, that it has a cold northern climate, this was no small issue.

However, in 1975 people had the vision and forethought to try to do something about it. They still believed in the nation state of Canada that we could do something to control our own future and destiny.

When we raise the subject, people look at us as if it is heresy to even recommend that the federal government might be able to do something to help Canadians. Government shrugs its shoulders and says that it actually traded that away in the last free trade agreement it signed, that it used to be able to influence and dictate domestic market prices for our energy resources but it traded that away and cannot help us any more.

Frankly that is why I think it is sad today that we are dealing with the death rattle of a national dream, when people with vision actually had some idea and some awareness of how critical access to reasonably priced energy resources would be to the economic stability of the country.

It is even more galling to Canadians when they realize that our energy resources are part of our common wealth. There is that old term. We used to use that word that in the name of our party, the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation. Our natural resources are part of our birthright as Canadians. They are in the ground. They are under our feet. They are something we all need and we all should be able to share.

We believe some things should be regulated. We all know that capital has no conscience as such, so it is government's role to introduce regulation on the free market to make sure that it meets ordinary people's needs. We could certainly argue that the absence of any national energy strategy is not serving Canadians well. We could ask any homeowner in this country what he or she thinks about the way the free market has served the interests of Canadians when it comes to energy supply. We could ask any small business person or any trucking company representative how he or she likes waking up in the morning not knowing if the price of fuel has arbitrarily fluctuated by six, seven or ten cents.

What really annoys Canadians most is this seemingly arbitrary nature of the wild price fluctuations. That is what really galls people. That is why, when we did have Petro-Canada, when we did actually own a piece of the action, we knew what the real cost of production was. Then we could tell if we were paying the real cost or if we were being gouged like most Canadians feel they are being gouged now.

I am not at all impressed with Bill C-3. It is a huge step backward. It is the end of an era in terms of the nation state of Canada being able to dictate its own domestic price for energy strategy.

There is a growing interest, of course, in the whole issue of energy resources. As prices skyrocket there is a growing realization that we have to do something about energy conservation. We have to get more involved in the demand side of our resources rather than the supply side.

I am a carpenter by trade. I used to build hydro dams and oil refineries. I worked on megaprojects of that nature. It used to be heresy for a tradesperson to advocate demand side management because we wanted the jobs. We wanted to build hydro dams to put people to work.

In actual fact, the more people dig into the subject, we are pleased to be able to say that there are far more job opportunities in demand side management in terms of energy retrofitting buildings like schools and hospitals than there are in building a hydro dam. We have to start considering that a unit of energy harvested from the existing system by demand side management measures is indistinguishable from a unit of energy generated at a generating station except for a number of key things: it is available at about one-quarter of the cost; it creates as much as seven times the number of person years or jobs; it is available and online immediately instead of the 10 year lag time there is to build a new generating station; and it does not degrade the environment, but in fact rehabilitates the environment by reducing harmful greenhouse gas emissions.

That is the type of message we should be getting from our federal government as we enter into an era of energy supply crisis. Instead of throwing money at it with a dysfunctional rebate system, why are we not hearing about a progressive approach to serving the needs of Canadians by demand side management energy conservation? If I heard the government say that even once, it would be of some comfort. Instead we have a token gesture.

Let us start with the federal government itself as a demonstration pilot project. The federal government owns 68,000 buildings in Canada, many of which are absolute energy pigs because they were built in an era when people did not worry about energy conservation. These buildings waste energy like crazy.

All the empirical evidence now shows that we can reduce the operating costs of those 68,000 buildings by as much as 40% by working on the building envelope. I am talking about new insulation, smart thermostat controls, basic caulking and sealing of windows, and smart lighting systems that dim and light up as the day brightens and darkens. All of these measures are easily done and would serve as a demonstration project to the private sector that it too can reduce its fuel consumption and operating costs. We all have to realize that our energy resources are extremely finite and that Canada is the most wasteful country in the world when it comes to energy consumption.

David Suzuki was quoted recently as saying that for the rest of the world to live in the same manner we do or use the same level of energy we do, seven more plants would be required to provide the raw resources. There are not enough energy resources in the world for every man, woman and child in developing nations to live the lifestyle that we enjoy with our energy use.

Let us face it. Essentially the jig is up as far as our cheap access to unlimited energy use is concerned. Conservation is going to be the key and will ultimately save the planet. Sooner or later we are going to have to wean ourselves off fossil fuels altogether.

In regard to the demand side management I described, possibly there would be some optimism and hope on the part of Canadians if they heard our government make visionary statements like that. Frankly, we could show the world how to do it. We could be a centre of excellence for energy retrofitting technology because we are a harsh northern climate and we have challenges in terms of energy supply now. We could develop and export the technology and become world leaders in the sensible use of energy resources instead of showing the world just how wasteful we can be, which is our practice, frankly.

I started by saying that there was a time within living memory when Canadians still believed that we were not impotent as a government, but now as we sign more and more trade agreements we are locking ourselves in deeper and deeper, to the point where we can no longer dictate our own domestic energy strategy. We cannot give preferential pricing to our own customers, our own citizens, our own kids. We are not allowed to because somebody traded it all away. I call it economic treason to trade away our birthright and our ability.

In the 1980s and 1990s in the private sector, in the Business Council on National Issues and the Canadian Manufacturers' Association, everybody wanted to deregulate everything. The idea was to let the free market prevail and get government out of business because it was tying up the free hand of the marketplace. The government sold Petro-Canada. It sold the goose that laid the golden egg. Why did we want to get out of the energy sector just at a time when world prices were going through the ceiling? We sold it off.

Last year, $800 million in profit would have been in the coffers of the federal government, but no, we had to let the free market handle things: all things private, good, and all things public, bad, and the public sector could not organize a peanut stand. Although frankly, with the way the government has managed its energy rebate system there is not much room for confidence in its ability to run anything else.

However, the really galling thing is that we used to own it. We used to have a piece of it. It was called Petro-Canada. Bill C-3 puts to bed any idea of ever getting involved in that kind of thing again because the powers that be simply will not tolerate it.

We are not being served well. Ask Californians with their energy problems how much they like deregulation. They are trying to re-regulate as fast as they can to save their bacon, to save their industries, to save their economic base. Ask Albertans how much they like deregulation. They always say they do, until the price of natural gas goes up 125% in one year. Thanks a million. The free market is really servicing them well. These outrageous gouging costs have to be offset by energy rebates to Albertans every month.

However, we never get to the root of the problem. Rebates are just offsetting the profits of the oil companies. If we are in fact being gouged—and we do not know if we are being gouged or not—rather than the government intervening to try to put some semblance of order into the industry, it is telling us that if we are being charged too much it will help us by giving us a little bit of money, a $125 lump sum payment.

That does not even heat one house for a week in Cambridge Bay, Nunavut. I had phone calls from people in Cambridge Bay, Nunavut—I spoke about it in question period today—who were complaining that the fuel oil delivery guy will not deliver now unless customers have cash up front. Many people are defaulting on their monthly bills. They have to pay cash in advance to get oil to heat their homes. That is a desperate situation when it is 40 degrees below zero or worse in Nunavut.

We are not being well served with what is our common wealth, with what we used to consider our birthright and our property. We are not being well served when we cannot even afford to heat our homes or we are paying $500 or $600 a month for an 800 square foot house in Nunavut. The $125 rebate will not even heat that house for a week. One cannot be without heat for more than an hour in that part of the world.

Deregulation has hurt ordinary people. The previous speaker from the Bloc Quebecois was saying that the average joe, the little guy, the working person, has suffered in all of this. People who own shares in the oil companies have benefited while the rest of us have suffered. Who will stand up for us? Who will be our champion, our advocate? Who will say on behalf of the Canadian people that enough is enough?

Who will say that they will find a way to produce and distribute energy resources in a way that is fair and equitable so that all Canadians can share in the benefit of what is ours, not theirs but ours collectively? That was the dream of Petro-Canada. The government is putting the final stake through the heart of that dream as we deal with Bill C-3. That is nothing to celebrate. I have heard other speakers saying it is great that we are moving forward with a whole new way of dealing with our energy resources. We are not. We are moving backward.

People cannot survive without energy. It is one of the fundamental basics. It gets to be an economic development issue because he who has the energy can attract the business. This is why in all the free trade agreements the Americans have been quite up front. They are after our energy resources and our water because without those two resources no country will move forward. They are two resources that we used to have in great abundance.

Now, frankly, that natural gas might as well be in the United States because we have to sell it to our own domestic customers at the same price we sell it to our export partners south of the border, who have an insatiable appetite for our resources. Even if we run short and are freezing in the dark, we are not allowed to turn off the tap once it is turned on. That is the miracle of NAFTA.

This is the frustration that Canadians are feeling. They feel that we are no longer in control and that their freely elected representatives, like us in the House of Commons, cannot even help them. They are right, because in my opinion somebody committed economic treason by signing away our economic sovereignty and giving it away for next to nothing in a trade agreement that we neither wanted nor voted for. It does not serve ordinary Canadians. It only serves the powerful and the elite or maybe those who have shares in oil companies.

We are worried that we have lost the ability to have any kind of national energy strategy. That is why I recently introduced a private member's bill calling on the government to create a national energy price commission. On energy issues the commission would at least be an advocate on behalf of ordinary Canadians. It would champion their issues, so that if the oil companies wanted to raise the price of gas or home heating fuel or whatever, they would have to come before this independent tribunal and justify why the increase is warranted. What is so wrong with that?

Granted, it would be a regulation, and maybe it would be the first tentative step toward a new national energy policy that would in fact set policy which would provide for ordinary Canadians. Maybe that same energy price commission would say that charging the GST on home heating fuel is not only wrong but amoral and fundamentally antithetical to anything Canadians should be standing for.

Maybe that energy price commission would say that we need to start investigating more sources of alternative energy. Maybe it would be the think tank that would actually set some energy policy. Perhaps it would say that the real value of a barrel of oil is not $25 or $27 but that the whole cost of a barrel of oil is about $150, because we have to factor in the price of the American military to keep supertankers in the Persian Gulf to get the oil out of there and then we have to factor in the environmental degradation and the cleanup afterward.

If we look at the whole cost of burning fossil fuels, all other sources of energy seem cheap in comparison. Even if solar energy and wind energy need some investment before we are ready for them, that seems like a bargain when we start really viewing what burning fossil fuels does to our planet and our environment and what the whole cost of that is.

We are ready to move on. We would hope that most Canadians are also ready to move on and into an era of progress and new maturity about our energy resources. That includes taking the bull by the horns and not saying that we cannot do it. We are always making excuses about why we cannot shape our domestic policy. There is a saying I heard that “there are no more prizes for predicting rain, that from now on we are only giving prizes for building arks”. There should be no more excuses.

The government should not tell us that it cannot help us. It must get creative and find a way to make sure there is a reliable supply of affordable energy so that Canadians can heat their homes without breaking the bank.

We do not want more repeat situations like Cambridge Bay where people have to go down to the fuel dealer with five gallon jerry cans and pay in advance to get ten gallons of fuel oil to heat their homes. That is a disgrace.

It is a complete abdication of responsibility by the federal government in not representing the interests of Canadians in this way. Bill C-3 takes us one step further from the complete abdication of responsibility by the government. It simply does not think it has a role in any kind of a national energy strategy, and we think that is wrong.

I look back fondly on the days when David Lewis had the official balance of power in a minority government. He could influence government and demand that government exercise its sovereign right to manage the affairs of the country in terms of energy supply. That was 1975. This is 2001. Bill C-3 will drive a stake through the heart of any national dream we might have in taking care of our own interests.

Eldorado Nuclear Limited Reorganization And Divestiture ActGovernment Orders

12:50 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Brian Fitzpatrick Canadian Alliance Prince Albert, SK

Mr. Speaker, this topic concerns me. I should like to address what I think is a deficiency in the bill, the 18% ownership by the Government of Canada of Petro-Canada.

I come from Saskatchewan. I should like to draw on the history of that province in dealing with this topic. In 1944 we elected a Baptist minister as the premier of that province who embarked on a different way of doing things. There was a lot of state intervention, state ownership and state control of the economy.

At the very same time in our sister province to the west we elected a Baptist minister who believed in self-reliance and the market system. At that time Saskatchewan had approximately one and a quarter million people. Saskatoon and Regina were far larger centres than Edmonton and Calgary. Alberta had approximately 600,000 people. At the end of the last century we now see which model has worked.

Saskatchewan has a million people. Many of the members sitting on this side of the House from Alberta are transplanted Saskatchewan people. Even some of the Ontario people are transplanted Saskatchewan people. We have been great at exporting people from our province. Alberta has three million people today.

This 18% ownership is a reminder of a flawed, failed policy in the seventies where the federal government decided to use the Saskatchewan model to embark in the economy in a major way. It cost the Canadian economy a lot of money. It created a lot of unity problems that are still lasting in the country.

I wish the Minister for Intergovernmental Affairs were here today so we could deal with some of the grievances out west which he says do not exist.

I think the 20th century was a contest among many things. One of the big contests was a contest between a free market driven economy and state controlled command style economies. The verdict came in loud and clear—

Eldorado Nuclear Limited Reorganization And Divestiture ActGovernment Orders

12:50 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Perhaps I did not make it clear, and I may be jumping in a little too early, but this is the question and comment period on the speech of the member who last intervened in the debate, the hon. member for Winnipeg Centre. I would ask the member for Prince Albert to wrap up his comments, and if he has a question to please deliver it.

Eldorado Nuclear Limited Reorganization And Divestiture ActGovernment Orders

12:50 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Brian Fitzpatrick Canadian Alliance Prince Albert, SK

Mr. Speaker, almost anyone who would look at the history of the 20th century would say that the market driven economy clearly is a superior model to a state command dictated type of economy. Why does my learned friend keep on bringing up a model that has obviously failed as an economic model for creating wealth, opportunity and jobs?

Eldorado Nuclear Limited Reorganization And Divestiture ActGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Mr. Speaker, what has actually failed Canadians is the free market in terms of not being able to ensure a regular supply of affordable energy. Some level of state intervention is necessary to regulate that market.

I think the hon. member, in his history lesson about the former premiers of the two provinces, should keep in mind that the most significant difference between those two provinces was the fact that in 1947 Leduc No. 1 struck oil. It is not rocket science to start showing a more balanced budget when there is gold coming out of the ground in Leduc, Alberta.

Tommy Douglas was elected premier in 1944. There were a number of things that the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation was known for, one of which was medicare. He was elected on a promise to create socialized medicine. Sometimes people forget that he was not able to do that until he had enough money. It took about 20 years to implement that promise. He did it to our collective benefit. It is inarguable that Canadians should thank Tommy Douglas for the single thing that we are most proud of.

Eldorado Nuclear Limited Reorganization And Divestiture ActGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Gerald Keddy Progressive Conservative South Shore, NS

Mr. Speaker, I would like to preface my remarks with a comment on the remarks from the member for Winnipeg Centre. He led us through an interesting discussion though I am not quite sure that he was completely on subject. Still, it was a very interesting discussion.

I think the question is not whether Canada wants to have a private crown corporation run oil firm, but how much that firm cost us. Is it responsible and reasonable to continue in that direction today? Is it time to get out from under that burden of debt?

I would like to see a tally sheet of what Petro-Canada has cost us on one side and the profits that we made on the other side. I expect to have that information before we finish the bill in committee. I think then we could get into a very interesting and hopefully enlightening debate on whether or not we should keep the company in Canada.

Bill C-3, an act to amend the Eldorado Nuclear Limited Reorganization and Divestiture Act and the Petro-Canada Public Participation Act, will allow for greater foreign ownership of the two companies, Petro-Canada and Cameco. That is plain and simple.

As previous speakers have said, the proposed legislation would provide greater flexibility to both companies in their respective industries. It should allow them to continue as well-respected participants in the oil, gas and uranium fields. It should also provide them with increased opportunities for strategic management and positioning within those sectors.

I would like to repeat something that my colleague from St. John's West said when he spoke to the bill in its previous life as Bill C-39. Speaking as a member from Newfoundland, where Petro-Canada has a large involvement through its development of the Hibernia project and other potential oil and gas fields, he said “Even though we can appreciate, perhaps more in Newfoundland than anywhere else in the country, what Petro-Canada has done for oil and gas development in our province, we also must realize that to grow, companies need investment. We cannot restrict that investment or we are putting companies at a disadvantage.”

I could not agree more with my colleague. We all know that we operate in a global environment. Free trade agreements, technological advances and developing countries and markets require innovative and evolving responses to new challenges and opportunities. It is not in Canada's best interest to restrict any company from taking advantage of those opportunities or from moving into new and unexplored areas and markets.

However, there are other issues respecting the legislation that still need to be studied and examined as the legislative process continues.

First, Petro-Canada is an oil and gas company in a market where the price of crude oil has significantly increased over the past year. Petro-Canada has announced record earnings for the year 2000. In a press release the company says “Petro-Canada's performance reflects both an exceptional business environment and our success in capitalizing on that environment.”

No one would argue that if the government is going to take steps to get out of the oil and gas business, now could be one of the best possible times to do that. The industry is on a high and prices reflect that reality. With annual net earnings in 2000 of $893 million, the company far exceeded its previous high of $306 million in 1997.

We all know that the price of oil and gas has increased. We are reminded of that on an almost daily basis when we fill up our cars and pay our heating bills. While this points out the reason why companies like Petro-Canada are experiencing record highs, it also begs the question of what do Canadian taxpayers get out of this deal.

If the government has indicated that it is going to divest itself of the 18% stake it continues to hold in Petro-Canada, taxpayers who funded the purchase of this former crown corporation in 1975 need to benefit directly from the government's decision to get out of the energy sector. Many Canadians are ready to let Petro-Canada be privatized completely and have that money either paid on our national debt or invested in alternative and sustainable energy.

We can stipulate certain requirements in the privatization process, in this case the location of headquarters, Canadian directors and a limit on individual ownership.

The province of Nova Scotia recently announced that it is selling its share in Nova Scotia Resources Ltd., a company established in 1981 to allow the government to participate in the oil and gas industry. Over the course of time a debt of almost $800 million has been amassed. This is a debt that Nova Scotia taxpayers have had to assume. If the $425 million deal that the government announced goes through it will be one less burden on Nova Scotia taxpayers and the government will reduce its debt load. That deal allows the government to cut its losses.

I would suggest that now is a favourable time to get out, just as it is for the federal government with respect to its position in Petro-Canada. If we are going to privatize, now is the time to do it. It also shows that unless there are public policy reasons for direct involvement, the risk inherent in the oil and gas industry may outweigh the benefits for governmental involvement.

In both cases, Petro-Canada at the federal level and Nova Scotia Resources Ltd. at the provincial level, the decision to get directly involved in the oil and gas industry stemmed from global conditions of the day, namely the energy crisis. Petro-Canada was established as a crown corporation in 1975 by an act of parliament to allow Canada to have a stake in the oil and gas industry and improve exploration and development of new oil and gas sources within Canada. This is precisely what happened. Petro-Canada went on to make purchases that led to a share in the Hibernia project and the gas discoveries off Nova Scotia, as well as the tar sands in Alberta. These are still some of the company's primary areas.

However, the federal government divested its interest over time to the point that today it controls exactly 18.2% of the shares but it has no management involvement. With no public policy reasons for its continued participation in the company, the time is seen as appropriate for a complete divestiture. This bill is one more step toward that objective.

The bill deals with two companies, Petro-Canada and Cameco. While many of the points I have already made also apply to Cameco, their respective industries are significantly different. I would like to discuss those differences for a few moments.

Cameco is involved in the uranium business. In fact, it is the world's largest uranium company. As I mentioned, the similarity with Petro-Canada is that this legislation will increase the percentage of foreign ownership on both an individual and aggregate basis, again stipulating that the head office remain in Canada, in this case Saskatchewan, and with Canadian directors. However, the nuclear industry is quite different from the oil and gas industry and Canadians remain skeptical about the safety issues surrounding nuclear power, perhaps with good reason. The auditor general recently reported to parliament and he highlighted some concerns respecting risk assessments at Canada's nuclear power generators. As well, the issue of disposal of radioactive waste remains largely unanswered.

I have been told that the legislation in no way affects the non-proliferation policy and uranium will continue to be sold only to those countries that are signatory to the non-proliferation agreement.

World markets are changing dramatically, and by loosening rules on foreign ownership, it is anticipated that this will provide Cameco with increased opportunity to take advantage of new opportunities and new market conditions.

What both of these companies highlight is Canada's and the world's dependence on energy sources, whether those sources be oil and gas or nuclear. There are a lot of exciting developments taking place in both of these sectors. The Mackenzie Delta pipeline looks like it could soon become a reality and new nuclear reactors have increased safeguards.

Canada needs to be in a position to take advantage of these new prospects and new technologies. I look forward to studying the legislation more closely at committee to see whether the legislation will benefit Canadian taxpayers and be one step toward helping these companies position themselves for future growth and productivity.

In closing, the issue here is exactly that. Does the legislation benefit Canadian taxpayers? It would be my position that the legislation does benefit Canadian taxpayers. There is a significant difference between developments in the petrochemical and petroleum industry energy sector and the nuclear and uranium industry sector.

That is what we have to take a look at in committee. This is only the first time the bill has been debated. We will have an opportunity to discuss it further, and we plan to have some more numbers to look at when we come back to parliament the next time.

Eldorado Nuclear Limited Reorganization And Divestiture ActGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Mr. Speaker, the last intervention was quite thoughtful. I will comment on the ownership later.

The previous speaker, my colleague from the NDP, was a little off topic when he was talked about things in NAFTA only going to the elite. That precludes all the workers who have got thousands upon thousands of jobs because of NAFTA. They are not elite, they are every day working people. It also precludes the lowering of prices because those poor people do not have to pay tariffs that they artificially had to pay before the agreement. I find it difficult that the NDP would call those poor people and the workers who have benefited from that elite.

He also said that he would like to hear this side of the House just say once that demand management is good. I will say that I think demand management is good. In fact, if he would like to be positive on this point, perhaps he should consider making an enumeration of the hundreds of initiatives of provincial and federal governments that are helping save energy across this country. They have for decades.

Both he and the previous speaker were back on the topic of the energy program, which has been mentioned numerous times. They talked about some examples where it may not have gone to the most appropriate person. This is getting a bit tedious. We got the message. I do not think there has been any program in history dealing with millions of people that has always been right. The bottom line is millions of poor people benefited from that program, which is good. In fact, the argument by the member from the Bloc got so circuitous at one point when he complained about children having money to buy clothes.

He also said there should be a more in-depth discussion on globalization. He was referring to poverty again, which is great, admirable and a good topic to discuss. However, maybe he missed my remarks yesterday when I talked about the in-depth analysis which showed that globalization reduces the tariff barriers and the customs that poor people would have to pay. It reduces the control of companies that are hiding behind tariff barriers. It opens up markets for those poor and undeveloped countries. Poorer people can now market their goods more easily because they do not have to cross a huge tariff barrier.

My last comment is related to the point about the ownership of Petro-Canada, which has been raised by most of the Alliance members. We live in a free market economy in the western world. We believe basically that the market in appropriate circumstances should work freely and bring lower prices. Therefore, we can all have those lower prices. However, the market does not always work perfectly by itself. There are times when there needs to be government intervention.

I personally believe that the effort of this bill to maintain Petro-Canada's 18% in government control is a good safeguard in the event that we need to be involved in this industry when it is in a oligopoly position. When there are only a few large companies involved, it is good to have a player from the government to keep track of what is going on and to be on the ground in the day to day involvement of pricing and operations. That way we get a true picture of the on the ground situation.

That would help the concerns of every member in the House with things like prices of energy, which we are all concerned about. A closer attachment to the operation of what is going on, such as the partial control of Petro-Canada, would be a benefit to us all.

Eldorado Nuclear Limited Reorganization And Divestiture ActGovernment Orders

1:10 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Gerald Keddy Progressive Conservative South Shore, NS

Mr. Speaker, I realize the member is a new member of parliament and I welcome him to the House. I understand he spoke here before, but it is the first time I have had an opportunity to reply to one of his questions. We look forward to many more.

He made several points but I would like to respond to two of them. First, the member for Yukon made reference to the oil rebate and said that it helped millions of people. Imagine how many people it could have helped had it been applied fairly and with any sense of conscience whatsoever? I mean this was child simple.

The government had $1.4 billion. It wanted to give an energy rebate to Canadians who needed it most. The Liberals decided that the venue they would use to choose those Canadians was the GST rebate. It made good sense. All they had to do to make that work was ask for an energy receipt showing that people had paid their oil or electrical bill or bought fuel wood. Lots of provinces have done it. It is not complicated.

I would guess, and I do not think I am too far wrong but we will never get the real numbers out of this crowd, that 50% of the $1.4 billion or $1.3 billion, or whatever it was, was wasted. There were double cheques, triple cheques, quadruple cheques to one household. We could have a widow living on one side of the street in a two bedroom bungalow who received $125. On the other side of the street there could be a married couple who received $250. Explain to me how that got money to Canadians who needed it. Explain to me how that is fair.

It is hopeless. The government cannot even give away $1.4 billion and do a good job at it. It is scandalous. Do not try to defend that, it is not worth it. He made some good points but he should not defend the oil rebate.

The other issue is the Petro-Canada position. Now is the time to get out of Petro-Canada. Do not delay. Sell the shares. There is lots of money out there. Its shares are at a premium price. The government does not have any managerial position in Petro-Canada. It holds 18.2% of the shares. It does not make decisions any longer on Petro-Canada.

We are going to put a board and a director in place. All of those people will have stipends. All of those people will get per diems. All or some of those people will be on salary. We are going to create a bureaucracy where there is no need to create one. We have a good opportunity to sell our shares and get out from under a burden of debt. Now is the time to do it. We can get the most money for our investment. Let us move on.

Eldorado Nuclear Limited Reorganization And Divestiture ActGovernment Orders

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Mr. Speaker, who owns more than 18% in Petro-Canada?

Eldorado Nuclear Limited Reorganization And Divestiture ActGovernment Orders

1:10 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Gerald Keddy Progressive Conservative South Shore, NS

Mr. Speaker, I did not hear the exact question but it was something about who owns more than 18% in Petro-Canada. We own 18.2% of the shares. The rest of the shares are owned throughout the country. This will open them up to foreign ownership as well.

The 18.2% is a non-managerial position. We do not make the decisions regarding Petro-Canada, nor should we make them.

Petro-Canada had its place. Petro-Canada helped start the Hibernia field. It helped develop Panuke and Cohasset off Sable Island. I worked in those oilfields for eight years as a driller. Petro-Canada was needed then. It was a wildcat operation with high pressure and deep wells. It had some of the iffiest wells being drilled in the world at the time.

However those days are gone. We found the gas and oil. We have better technology. We can drill faster and cheaper and can find gas and oil better than we ever could before. We no longer have the high risk in the energy sector that used to be there. It is time to move on and sell the shares.

Eldorado Nuclear Limited Reorganization And Divestiture ActGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Deepak Obhrai Canadian Alliance Calgary East, AB

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to rise on behalf of the constituents of Calgary East to talk about Bill C-3 pertaining to Eldorado Nuclear Limited Reorganization and also to Petro-Canada Public Participation Act, Bill C-39.

Basically the bill allows both companies greater access to sell themselves and to get more outside shares.

The Canadian Alliance has no problem with the bill as such. Our natural resources critic will allay whatever fears he has when the bill goes to committee. We will be supporting the bill as it now stands.

The bill also talks about Petro-Canada and the attempt by the government to increase individual share ownership and remove non-resident ownership. I wish to draw attention to the oil sector as we are talking about Petro-Canada.

Sometime last summer the Calgary caucus, the members of parliament from Calgary, showed through calculations how much money the federal government was taking from Canadians through taxes on gasoline. It was interesting. We highlighted that there was a tax on a tax. The GST on gasoline was a tax on a tax. The government levied the excise tax and whatever the other taxes were, and then the GST came in on top of every other tax.

We came out and said that it was double taxation and it should be removed. We called on the federal government to reduce taxes on gasoline. This was a cry that went out when gas prices went up.

When gas prices went up the government resisted reducing taxes, despite what we showed them. It did so because it was reaping benefits from the tax on gasoline prices. Who was benefiting from increasing gas prices? The federal government. It benefited because of the way the tax structure is set up on gasoline. As prices and the excise tax went up, the 7% GST on top of that started to reap windfall profits.

At no time did the government think it necessary to return the money it was getting, the windfall profits, back to the taxpayer by reducing taxes. No, the government kept the money.

Then the government tried to offer what I will call a band-aid solution to the rise in heating oil prices. My colleague from the Conservative Party indicated to the government that it was a very ill-conceived program.

Let me give an example. I got over 50 calls to my office from Canadians talking about their heating bills and how unfair they were. People say that when the government wants money from them, it takes the money right away through Revenue Canada with no questions asked. However when it comes time to give the money back the government brings in a stupid, ill thought program

Here is what happened. The government decided that those eligible for the GST refund would receive the rebate. Just for a second let us think about the GST refund. It is the goods and services tax imposed uniformly across the country. That is fine. We can understand the government giving GST rebates across the country.

The government is now trying to give money to homeowners, a segment which is not uniform across the country, but which needs money to pay for heating costs. Suddenly people who did not pay heating costs and had no heating bills were receiving the cheques. Those who paid heating costs were not receiving the cheques. Children were receiving the cheques while parents, who paid the heating bills, were not. Naturally they phoned our offices to say it was unfair.

Another point is that the GST rebate is based on the previous year's income. In this case it was based upon income from 1999. The heating oil crisis is in the year 2001, not 1999. Why is the government basing the rebate on the year 1999? There were changes in 2000 where people were not earning the same amount of money and needed help. However they did not qualify because their income from 1999 was slightly higher than it was in 2000.

The government in its haste, without thinking, brought in the plan. We have heard the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance say that the government has given money to 11 million Canadians. It may have given money to 11 million Canadians, but were they the 11 million who needed the relief? Were they the ones paying the heating bills? No, they were not. That is why even prisoners were getting cheques. Does the government think prisoners pay heating bills in penitentiaries?

We now have an ill conceived program, as is normal. Half the programs coming from that side are like that. All my colleagues here have received numerous calls from their constituents on this foolhardy program.

The government gave back $1.2 billion to the Canadian public without thinking. What an idiotic program. If it wanted to really help there were ways it could have done so. It has a huge bureaucracy. Could all those bureaucrats and mandarins not have thought up a plan where those who were paying would get a cheque? No, they did not. They used a quick solution without thinking about it.

The government has wasted $1.2 billion. Canadians notice the unfairness of the system, the unfairness of the high taxes they pay. The government has stated that it will reduce taxes, but the way taxes are being reduced is not uniform.

On behalf of my constituents I needed to bring up the point of the heating oil and let the government and those mandarins know that this is a wrong and ill thought out program that is wasting $1.2 billion.

Eldorado Nuclear Limited Reorganization And Divestiture ActGovernment Orders

1:25 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Is the House ready for the question?

Eldorado Nuclear Limited Reorganization And Divestiture ActGovernment Orders

1:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Question.

Eldorado Nuclear Limited Reorganization And Divestiture ActGovernment Orders

1:25 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Eldorado Nuclear Limited Reorganization And Divestiture ActGovernment Orders

1:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Eldorado Nuclear Limited Reorganization And Divestiture ActGovernment Orders

1:25 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I declare the motion carried. Accordingly, the bill stands referred to the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs, Northern Development and Natural Resources.

(Bill read the second time and referred to a committee)

Eldorado Nuclear Limited Reorganization And Divestiture ActGovernment Orders

1:25 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

It being 1.27 p.m. the House stands adjourned until Monday next at 11 a.m. pursuant to Standing Order 24.

(The House adjourned at 1.27 p.m.)