House of Commons Hansard #9 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was opposition.

Topics

Questions On The Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

10:15 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

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10:15 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Stockwell Day Canadian Alliance Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

moved:

That this House adopt the following policy from Liberal Redbook 1 and call for its implementation by the government: “A Liberal Government will appoint an independent Ethics Counsellor to advise both public officials and lobbyists in the day-to-day application of the Code of Conduct for Public Officials. The Ethics Counsellor will be appointed after consultation with the leaders of all parties in the House of Commons and will report directly to Parliament.”

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10:15 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

John Reynolds Canadian Alliance West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, BC

Mr. Speaker, I believe you would find consent for the following motion:

That at the conclusion of the present debate on today's Opposition Motion, all questions necessary to dispose of this motion be deemed put, a recorded division deemed requested and deferred to the expiry of the time provided for Government Orders on Tuesday, February 13, 2001.

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10:15 a.m.

The Speaker

The House has heard the terms of the motion. Is there unanimous consent to adopt the motion?

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10:15 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to)

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10:15 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

John Reynolds Canadian Alliance West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, BC

Mr. Speaker, all members of the Canadian Alliance will be splitting their time.

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10:15 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Stockwell Day Canadian Alliance Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member for Fraser Valley.

We find the motion fascinating because it is a motion that was brought forward by the Liberals in their so-called red book one. I have indicated that it is our honour to support the government on initiatives that we feel are positive and that will serve the country well. We are here to help members opposite recognize that this is a good motion.

We do not mind giving the Liberals full credit for their idea. It is contained in their red book one. I have it in front of me and it is fabulous.

This motion was part of the first red book in 1993. It was part of the Liberal election platform. Here is a description of the remarks of the Prime Minister during the 1993 election campaign.

During the election campaign the Prime Minister said, and it was picked up by the Canadian Press, “It's time to elect politicians that serve the public rather than serve themselves.” We agree with that.

I think Liberal members will remember the months leading up to the 1993 election, but if not I hope to refresh their memories in about three or four years from now. However, on February 17, 1993, when the Liberals were in opposition, the present House Leader, the hon. member for Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, tabled the following motion:

That this House condemns the government for its continued failure to establish and to adhere to a clear and high standard of public sector ethics, for its incessant inability to function within the framework of existing legislation, guidelines and standards, and for its reluctance to bring forward strict new codes and legislation with regard to conflicts and other public ethic matters.

Again we hear a wonderful motion coming from the Liberals. Motions and words are one thing, but we are looking for action.

During the 1993 election the present House leader went on to quote the promises of the then Prime Minister, Mr. Mulroney. He denigrated the Conservatives as the “orgy of patronage”, as he called it, and demanded other things. He demanded an independent commission to scrutinize the contracting process. He demanded that a member of parliament be excluded from involvement in the awarding of contracts. Today they are allowed to award grants. He also demanded a non-partisan process of review of cabinet appointments. These were Liberal motions from seven years ago.

Eight months later the Liberals actually ran their campaign on the image of being squeaky clean compared with the then Mulroney government.

Canadians at the time put their trust in today's Prime Minister thinking that the Liberals would “scrap, kill and abolish the GST”. The Liberals were also opposed to free trade at the time. The historic reality is that before an election the Liberals will say one thing and after an election they will say almost anything.

Another forgotten promise was the appointment of an ethics counsellor who would report to parliament. We are reminding the Liberals of that promise with their own motion. The Liberals refused to deliver the very legislation that they called for while they were in opposition. The hypocrisy is astounding. It has resulted in a situation where we have an ethics counsellor who actually has no powers of investigation.

Any comments that I am making today related to the present ethics counsellor are in no way a reflection on the integrity of that gentleman. However, the straitjacket within which he operates keeps him from doing what the people of Canada would like him to do and what the Liberals at one time said they wanted him to do. He is appointed by the Prime Minister, has no powers of investigation and, amazingly, reports directly to the Prime Minister not to the House.

When someone hires me, gives me a job and a salary and then tells me to report to him and to let him know if I like him, human nature kicks in. I am not questioning the ethics counsellor's abilities but he has been put in a straitjacket. We are asking for that straitjacket to be removed.

The Liberals say that they have ethical guidelines for ministers. We have never even seen them. The Prime Minister can call the ethics counsellor any time to say hello and to remind him that he is the guy who hired him and who pays his salary. He can ask him to read the secret list of guidelines, which nobody knows about, because he has been accused of some bad behaviour, and to let him know that everything he has done is okay. That is presently how it works and it is just not acceptable. We need a public servant who reports to the House, not one who defends the Prime Minister at every turn no matter how outrageous the incident.

During the election, there was an experience that demonstrated the restrictions that are placed on the ethics counsellor. It was brought to our attention, through some very significant investigations, that there was in place a secret and parallel political process for the granting of HRDC grants. It was brought out, accepted and realized by the Liberals. They admitted it and did not challenge it.

We found out about that grant two years ago when we had asked the ethics counsellor for documents regarding Pierre Corbeil and his conviction for influence peddling related to the HRDC grants. In that particular process, the ethics counsellor had conducted an investigation but refused to give us the information. We then had to appeal to the information commissioner. We could not get the documents because the ethics counsellor was in a straitjacket.

The information commissioner had to fight the office of the ethics counsellor for two years in order to get the documents. The few pages that were finally released to us just before the election were the very pages that showed that there was a highly unethical parallel political process in the approving of these grants. That is not acceptable and it must change. We demand the Liberals live up to their word and make these changes.

Further to that, and a subject of much attention to Canadians, when it became public during the election that the Prime Minister had demanded loans from the president of the Business Development Bank and possibly even forced the president to resign when he wanted to call those loans, I wrote to the ethics counsellor and asked him eight very straight questions.

He replied to me, and I appreciate the reply only took two days. Whether that was a reflection of the gravity of my letter or the straitjacket that the counsellor was in, I am not sure. However he did reply and I appreciated that. He said that there was no rule preventing a minister, including the Prime Minister, from having direct contact on behalf of a constituent with a crown corporation.

To support that, he quoted as his authority the independent B.C. conflict of interest commissioner. The ethics counsellor had replied in terms of protecting the Prime Minister from any wrongdoing, saying that there had been no wrongdoing. The B.C. conflict of interest commissioner concluded that constituency assistance in a minister's office could give advocacy assistance to constituents, provided it was not before a commission, board, agency or other tribunal within the sphere of the minister's responsibility.

He quoted from that to say he thought the Prime Minister was okay. However in quoting from the report he neglected to quote the preceding paragraph, and that was a very significant omission, which indicated that the B.C. conflict of interest commissioner had ruled that a minister must not make personal representation on behalf of a constituent in such a forum, commission, board, agency or other tribunal established by the government, regardless of the ministry under which the commission, board, agency or other tribunal operated.

It went on to say that a minister acting in such a way would always be seen as a minister of government, which is a position of responsibility that he or she cannot shed at will, and that it would be improper to appear in an advocacy role of this kind. Those were the words in the preceding paragraph. If he is going to quote this citation, let us have the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

The Business Development Bank of Canada is a crown corporation as we know. The BDC president is a cabinet appointee. These things need to be dealt with. He also did not refer to the Ontario integrity commissioner who said that parliamentary convention prohibits all ministers from personally appearing or advocating on behalf of a private party with an agency, board or commission.

Since coming to the House, I have heard Liberal members say from time to time that they think provincial legislatures are the minor leagues and that this is the major league. That is not true. In many provinces, the standards are higher than those of the federal government.

That is simply the case that has to be recognized. We want to look at this issue. We recognize that one of the most important ways of ensuring that politicians serve the public rather than themselves is by ensuring the integrity and independence of the ethics counsellor's office.

One of the main ways of making sure that politicians serve public interest and not their own interest is by ensuring the integrity and the autonomy of the office of the counsellor, who is in charge of these standards.

This is absolutely necessary. I close by quoting the Prime Minister's own words, as we now give the Liberals the great opportunity to clear their name. People are suggesting that they are being less than honest, less than straightforward. I would like to help the Liberals clear their name by getting them to support their own motion. In the 1993 campaign the Prime Minister said “It is time to elect politicians that serve the public rather than serve themselves”.

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10:25 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Chuck Strahl Canadian Alliance Fraser Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, the question on most people's mind is: Will the Liberals vote in favour of a motion that is lifted verbatim out of the Liberal red book?

There will be other tangential questions that will be debated today. They will be kind of interesting, but the essence of today's debate and the subsequent vote that will be held on Tuesday of next week is the agonizing political question that the Liberals must face head on. Will the Liberals vote in favour of today's motion that will create an independent ethics counsellor answerable not to the Prime Minister but to parliament itself?

It should be an easy answer. How could they say no? Surely they would want to support a motion which they in essence drafted themselves. Let us hope that it is the case. Let us hope they will follow through on an old promise and vote in favour of an independent ethics counsellor. All MPs from all political parties should support the motion. I suggest four reasons why we should do so.

We should support it because it will rebuild our reputation as a people who ensure a fair process for all Canadians. That is one of our primary purposes as members of parliament. We are to safeguard the sanctity of fair and equitable process for all Canadians.

Earlier this week the auditor general described the abysmal track record of the Liberal government, especially in the area of patronage appointments. He said that the government's failure to appoint the best people to positions of authority, instead of the people with the best political connections, was weakening our institutions and tainting the political process. He said that the Liberals had failed to protect the process.

Nobody likes to see patronage misused in this way, including the government House leader, who actually called on the Mulroney government to create a committee to review and disallow obvious partisan political patronage appointments.

It is strange that the government House leader rejected that idea when I proposed exactly the same thing just last month. The reason he proposed that idea back in 1993, the reason the Liberals originally campaigned on the promise to put in place an independent ethics counsellor, and the reason we have the motion before us today is obvious. Members of parliament have an obligation to make sure that the process is fair, not just for friends of the government, but fair and open and accessible for all Canadians. We are the keepers of the process. That process can be fixed today by supporting the creation of an independent ethics commissioner.

The second reason for supporting the motion is that it will enhance the reputation of the House of Commons. Public opinion polls suggest that Canadians simply do not hold members of parliament in very high esteem. Members of parliament contribute to that image problem by the way we sometimes act during question period and the manner in which we treat one another, or by the very public airings of our foibles and weaknesses. Heaven knows, we are not perfect and we have all made mistakes. In some ways one can understand why people come up with jokes like the one about how many politicians it takes to grease a combine. The answer is only one if you feed him in really, really slowly.

It is not just voters who are convinced that something is out of whack in the House of Commons. A recent poll published in Maclean's magazine concluded that only 7% of business people believe that members of parliament have a significant impact on the actions of the government. Only 7% think that we make a difference by our actions in the House.

More and more often, businesses and special interest groups simply bypass parliamentarians and go directly to the real power brokers. The real power brokers are those people who are close to the Prime Minister in his office, those who are close to the Prime Minister because they have been appointed by him to important positions, and those who have the ear of the Prime Minister because they are political friends and allies.

Let us think of how an independent ethics commissioner, with powers to investigate the improprieties of lobbyists and public officials, would change the way Canadians view their members of parliament. Instead of viewing members of parliament as, in that famous quote of Mr. Trudeau, nobodies when they are 50 feet away from this place, they would proudly say that their members of parliament have a published code of ethics; that they are accountable for their actions in a fair, transparent and open process; and that people would no longer able to bypass the Parliament of Canada simply because they have access to a coterie of unelected yet incredibly powerful and influential friends of the Prime Minister.

There is a third compelling reason to support the motion to establish an independent ethics commissioner. Establishing this commissioner would complete a circle of accountability that would have within the circle the following: a financial watchdog called the auditor general; a privacy commissioner who reports regularly to all Canadians, sounding the alarm whenever the government intrudes improperly into their private lives; an access to information commissioner, who has done so much to open up the closed door mentality of big businesses and big bureaucracies; and the long promised but yet to be delivered ethics commissioner, a watchdog who would report regularly to parliament on the ethics of those who have the honour and privilege to serve in high office.

This circle of independent, professional and skilled advocates, reporting regularly to parliament, with their advice, admonitions and observations available to all Canadians, would finally establish a complete system of checks and balances on the absolute powers of a majority government. In this respect the creation of an independent ethics commissioner would raise accountability to a new level. It would raise the accountability of the House of Commons to a high level among all parliamentary democracies.

The fourth and final reason for members of parliament to vote in favour of an independent ethics counsellor who reports to parliament is this: an independent ethics counsellor would expose the inappropriate behaviour of public officials and lobbyists but would also offer the best protection an honest, hardworking, ethical member of parliament, cabinet minister or prime minister could ever have.

Let us imagine the powerful, positive impact that this counsellor would have upon the reputation of those in public life. Let us imagine the leader cleared of wrongdoing by an independent ethics counsellor who could stand proudly in his or her place and deliver the leadership that Canadians applaud, deserve and admire.

Let us imagine the condemnation of frivolous, politically motivated witch hunts, which would be ruled on as out of order and inappropriate by the ethics counsellor. Just as the other watchdogs in this circle can laud the government when it does its job well, an ethics counsellor could preserve the reputation and enhance the effectiveness of ethical leaders who have given themselves to public life.

There are four reasons to vote yes to this motion: to ensure that the process of government is fair and open, to enhance the effectiveness of parliament itself, to complete the circle of government accountability, and to protect ethical members of parliament from wrongful or politically motivated attacks while exposing improper behaviour for all to see.

It goes without saying that an independent ethics counsellor would from time to time ferret out improper actions committed by some in public life. Hopefully that would happen only rarely, but by voting in favour of the motion before us today members of the House would send a signal that would be received with joyous hearts from coast to coast.

There would be a standard by which we will be judged. It would be fair, open and transparent. It would transcend political parties because it would be based on principles that Canadians believe to be proper and self-evident. It would be a cornerstone in our collective efforts to build trust and confidence between elected officials and the voters who sent them to this place to represent all Canadians. I therefore move the following amendment:

That the motion be amended by inserting before the word “implementation” the word “immediate”.

It is with pleasure and pride that I support this motion. I urge all members of parliament to do the same.

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10:35 a.m.

The Speaker

Debate is on the amendment.

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10:35 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Grant Hill Canadian Alliance Macleod, AB

Mr. Speaker, if the official opposition House leader read the speech of the House leader who sits across the way today, he would probably be able to read to us most of the things that he has just finished saying.

In opposition it is pretty easy to say these things, and I imagine the House leader will stand and say something like that. What possible assurance would the Canadian public have that we in opposition would not just say these things but would actually carry them out when we form a government?

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10:35 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Chuck Strahl Canadian Alliance Fraser Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, this is not only something we campaigned on. We have put forward details in regard to how this would be implemented.

These details include the creation of a committee that would receive reports from the privacy commissioner, the access to information commissioner and the new ethics counsellor himself or herself. Not only do we have the theory. We have some of the flesh on the framework, the bones, as it were, of the process. Not only do we have all party consent on this side of the House for it. We also have the approval of the governing party. In other words, I think this is a unanimously approved concept.

When the government House leader was in opposition he asked for basically this sort of accountability. In fact he went further. He asked for a committee that would review government patronage appointments and would have the power to disallow those appointments if it thought they were too politically motivated.

It is one of the ideas I put forward earlier this year in a document called “Building Trust”. Sadly the government House leader said that it was unworkable and that we could not do it. He called my ideas half-baked, but it is interesting to note that the idea of having an ethics counsellor is not mine. It originally came from the Liberals. These were their exact words. The idea of accountability for patronage appointments is not my idea. It came from the government House leader. We are just putting it forward again.

There is also the idea of having secret ballot elections for committees, on which we will be voting in the procedure and House affairs committee on Monday, for those who are interested in seeing if the government follows through. That also is a Liberal Party idea which I hope the Liberals will support.

In other words, as we go through the list of things we can do to build trust in this place and in parliamentarians, the ideas have support from all political parties. It should not be hard for any political party to follow through on a promise that has unanimous support.

That is why this step today, something that Canadians have long looked forward to, is a step that will help to build trust not only between this party and the electorate but between the House and the electorate. Heaven knows we need to rebuild that trust as quickly as possible.

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10:40 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Gary Lunn Canadian Alliance Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the House leader of the official opposition who put forward a document called “Building Trust” a few weeks ago. It is about bringing back ethics, transparency and accountability to this institution.

The House leader for the government responded, at least in the media, that we would actually need constitutional change. I am wondering if he will come up with the same kind of argument now. I admit that I studied constitutional law at law school. I cannot see, for the life of me, how he could possibly see that any of those things would require constitutional change. It is absolutely ridiculous.

I would like the House leader to comment on this point, in the anticipation that the government House leader could stand and say that he actually loves this idea but we would have to change the constitution.

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10:40 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Chuck Strahl Canadian Alliance Fraser Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, none of the proposals that have come from our document “Building Trust” are constitutional in nature. I am not sure exactly what message the government House leader is trying to send, other than one that he just does not like the idea of that much transparency. There certainly is nothing constitutional in it.

There is a reason we are asking for the particular motion today on the ethics counsellor. I will quote Lawrence Martin, who talked about the ruling that the ethics counsellor made during the election campaign. He said that the ethics counsellor made a ruling without having made an investigation. Howard Wilson exonerated the Prime Minister in the hotel loan affair without interviewing those involved, without responding to the specific questions posed by our opposition leader, without delving into the suggestion of political interference raised by the principals in the affair.

The point he made is that he did not substantially research the matter before him, therefore the ethics counsellor had brought in a verdict that was both timely and, in terms of merit, worthless. He added that it was of great political benefit to the man who appointed him.

In other words, although I have a lot of respect for Mr. Wilson, he has been put in an intolerable position. He has been hired by someone and reports to that same someone. He is not allowed to release any reports publicly without that same someone's okay. If the ruling does not look good the first time, he can go back and rewrite it. He does not have to investigate. He does not have to interview. He does not have to report to parliament. It is a political sham.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:40 a.m.

Glengarry—Prescott—Russell Ontario

Liberal

Don Boudria LiberalLeader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to address today's motion from the official opposition, which reads as follows:

That this House adopt the following policy from Liberal Redbook 1 and call for its implementation by the government: A Liberal Government will appoint an independent Ethics Counsellor to advise both public officials and lobbyists in the day-to-day application of the Code of Conduct for Public Officials. The Ethics Counsellor will be appointed after consultation with the leaders of all parties in the House of Commons and will report directly to Parliament.

I am more than pleased to speak on this motion because as a government we know the importance of ethical behaviour. We have a Prime Minister who is personally accountable for the government's outstanding ethical behaviour. We have a record of taking action which I point to with pride. We have made sure that ethics reach all levels of government and are part of the everyday ongoing work. Gone are the days before 1993 when we had a government that had little if no concern for ethics at all.

After we were first elected in 1993 we introduced a tough ethics package with a fundamentally different approach to politics than the previous Conservative government. We restored public confidence in the decision making process and returned integrity to public life as we had promised in the 1993 election and the red book.

Let me remind all colleagues of the excellent record of this government on integrity. We know the importance of ethical behaviour. We have a good understanding on this side of the House that the most important asset a government can claim is the confidence it enjoys of the citizens to whom it is accountable. We know that if our government is to play a positive role in society, as it must, honesty and integrity must be maintained in our political institution. Public service is a trust. Canadians expect their government to serve the public interest with fairness and to manage public resources properly on a daily basis.

When this government took office in November 1993, it was evident that Canadians had been losing faith in government. We know honesty, integrity and trust are important, not just for winning elections but because we have a responsibility to maintain the trust of Canadians in their political institutions and in the greatest institution that we have in the country, the House and parliament.

The Prime Minister told the House in 1994 that “trust in the institution of government is not a partisan issue.” I would like to remind my colleagues who just made their speeches of that point. I quote further “—but something all of us elected to public office had an obligation to restore.” The Prime Minister added that trust in institutions is as vital to a democracy as the air we breathe. For this trust we owe a duty of conduct to all Canadians.

We promised Canadians that they could count on an honest, transparent and responsible government. We truly want them to regain confidence in government institutions and we clearly stated that our actions and decisions, taken individually and collectively as members of the government, would be marked by integrity.

As members of the government we are accountable to a Prime Minister who is personally accountable to the House and to Canadians generally. The Prime Minister understands the importance of ethical behaviour and has himself said “setting high standards for the holders of public office is essential in renewing and maintaining the faith of Canadians in their public institution. In particular, ministers must remain above reproach.” That is a message that our Prime Minister gives to all of us in cabinet all the time. He reminds us constantly that is the guiding principle under which we operate.

The Prime Minister is responsible before Canadians and to the House for the conduct of ministers. That is the burden of his office. As ministers we all undergo daily scrutiny in the House. We are not exempted from that. Yet the burden to remain above all reproach at all times in all of our activities is one that we gladly accept because we want to be accountable and behave ethically, and we are.

It is the Prime Minister's prerogative to establish standards of conduct for ministers and to ensure that these standards are met. It is his prerogative and his personal responsibility both in a constitutional sense and to the House.

As signs of his commitment to this responsibility, in 1994 the Prime Minister announced the appointment of the first ethics counsellor we have had in the history of Canada. The role of the ethics counsellor with regard to ministers is clear. He is the Prime Minister's adviser on matters relating to conflict of interest and the ethical conduct of government officials, including ministers.

The ethics counsellor also has another job. He provides reports to parliament on his duties and investigations under the Lobbyists Registration Act. In that regard he already reports to the House of Commons. The Prime Minister bears responsibility for the conduct of ministers. He recommends the appointment of ministers to Her Excellency. He sets the standards of conduct which ministers follow, considers possible breaches of those standards should they occur and, should the need ever arise, would take the appropriate action.

The Prime Minister's responsibility for the ethics counsellor reflects his personal responsibility for establishing the standards of conduct for ministers. It is quite clear that the Prime Minister cannot answer members of the House, or anyone else for that matter, and say “I have an ethics counsellor, therefore nothing is my fault and nothing is my responsibility”. None of us would ever accept that kind of answer. He is personally accountable and, as he said, he will never abdicate that responsibility. He will never pass the buck, to use his words.

The ethics counsellor provides reports to parliament on his own duties regarding the Lobbyists Registration Act. To establish a similar reporting on his duties in advising the Prime Minister would undermine the Prime Minister's responsibility for ministerial conduct. The Prime Minister, and he alone, is responsible to parliament for the conduct of ministers, and he will not shirk this duty. The ethics counsellor advises the Prime Minister of course on the overall policies and in particular cases but in the end it is the Prime Minister who is accountable to the House, and I would not want it otherwise.

The Prime Minister is accountable for the public. The opposition may imagine that it carries out that responsibility but of course it does not. It is the responsibility of the House and all its members to question the government on its action, including ethics, if that is what it wants to do. We are pleased to answer these questions when they occur. That is the way parliament works.

We have an excellent track record, thanks to our Prime Minister. I give him full credit and I am very proud of that performance. The appointment of an ethics counsellor is but one of the measures that have been taken by our government and I am proud of it. I am proud to be part of a government that takes measures to ensure that public affairs in Canada are conducted with integrity.

Let me give some examples. In 1994, the Prime Minister reviewed and strengthened the code governing conflicts of interest. Since then, it is prohibited to grant preferential treatment to individuals or groups simply because go-betweens were hired to promote their interests.

The Prime Minister appointed the ethics counsellor to administer the code. He also provides reports to parliament under the Lobbyists Registration Act. That is a promise we made and a promise we kept. We gave the job real teeth. The job has strong investigative powers with the amendments to the Lobbyists Registration Act. When we amended the act we even incorporated amendments that I think were proposed by the hon. member for Elk Island who is sitting across the way. The government brought forward amendments strengthening that act, increasing transparency for lobbyists and so on.

The government took measures to reform the pension plan for members of parliament and senators to put an end to double dipping, for instance. In 1999 the government established guidelines on donations made by crown corporations to political parties. We have done that as well.

Our amendments to the Canada Elections Act also put very strict controls on third parties that were outside forces influencing the political process and who had no rules guiding them. We have put them on a level playing field with candidates. We have made sure that ethics are anchored in all levels of government.

Under the leadership and direction of the Prime Minister, departments and agencies have taken greater steps on values and ethics than under any previous government. In 1996 a report was produced on public sector values and ethics. It has helped forge a consensus on such issues. Fair and reliable public services inspire public trust and create favourable environment for business.

The opposition likes to quote the auditor general. Just last fall, the auditor general told the House that there was a strong foundation of values and ethics in the federal public sector. We have put in place those rules governing that.

The auditor general also said that the government is taking steps to maintain some values and ethics. I wonder why the opposition is not quoting that part of the auditor general's statement. He also pointed out at the time that a prerequisite for the success of ongoing measures is the leadership of parliamentarians, ministers and senior officials. It is thanks to that leadership that we have that high set of ethics not only for ministers, indeed I hope for all of us in the House, but also for our public servants.

While I cannot speak for the leaders of other parties, I can guarantee that under the leadership of our Prime Minister, Canadians will be able to go on depending on the federal public service to provide fair and reliable services to Canadians.

In 1998 the Government of Canada established the office of values and ethics to promote values and ethics in the public service. The head of the public service has been a driving force behind value initiatives across the government. Public servants have access to training and publications to promote awareness on ethical issues and to assist employees in developing skills for handling ethical situations.

It is quite obvious that the government believes that ensuring sound values and ethics is a vital part of good government which supports and respects fundamental democratic values. We also believe that understanding ethics involves not only knowing the difference between right and wrong but also making a commitment to do the right thing.

On June 16, 1994, the Prime Minister stood here and pledged to the House and to all Canadians that the government would guard its good name with all that it can. That is what it has been doing.

The public's political expectations and values have undergone enormous changes over the years. On this side of the House, we have taken the steps to help raise those standards and expectations. Through the standards we have met and kept, we have retained the trust of Canadians.

The opposition day motion suggests that the government is not accountable to parliament for its ethical policies. Our government is accountable to parliament. Our Prime Minister is in the House all the time.

Parliament has considered and passed the Lobbyists Registration Act. The auditor general can now report to parliament up to four times a year. A strengthened conduct code has been tabled in parliament. The ethics counsellor reports to parliament on his duties on the Lobbyists Registration Act. The Prime Minister and ministers continue to be accountable to parliament for their policies and ethical behaviour. In other words, we have not only met our red book commitments, we have exceeded those commitments.

An independent ethics counsellor has been established to advise the Prime Minister on ministerial ethics issues. The ethics counsellor is independent and reports to the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister reports to parliament. The opposition members were consulted and agreed with the selection of the ethics counsellor. They even spoke glowingly about the individual earlier this day. The ethics counsellor can be asked to appear before parliamentary committees. He has done so in the context of estimates and otherwise.

We will not apologize for our record on integrity. We will not apologize for meeting or exceeding our red book commitment. We will not apologize for having an independent ethics counsellor, whose selection was done after consultation with the opposition, who reports to parliament directly for the Lobbyist Registration Act and who reports to the Prime Minister who, in turn, is accountable to parliament regarding the issue of ministerial ethics.

This government's record on ethics is clear to all members of the House, and it is second to none. It is part of a record of achievement, of improving the quality of life for Canadians, of creating jobs, of putting the fiscal house in order, of strengthening Canada's health care system and of making our communities safe and governing with integrity.

These things are all part of the record of this government. That is why, last November 27, the people of Canada chose to re-elect our Prime Minister and our government with a third successive majority.

Today's opposition motion is simply an attempt to distract members of parliament and Canadians from this government's excellent record, and perhaps to distract Canadians from the terrible situation that the Leader of the Opposition finds himself in. Therefore I would move the following amendment:

That the amendment be amended by deleting the word “immediate” and by substituting therefore the word “continued”.

SupplyGovernment Orders

11 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Chuck Strahl Canadian Alliance Fraser Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I think all people can appreciate what the government House leader is attempting to do here, which is to not only amend the supply day motion but to actually amend the amendment.

I would argue that the amendment is completely out of order in that it changes, and not in a small way, but completely changes the intent of the amendment to the supply day motion.

We are talking about an immediate implementation of a certain course of action. To try to amend it in this manner would completely change the intent of the motion. I would ask you, Mr. Speaker, to rule it out of order.

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11 a.m.

NDP

Bill Blaikie NDP Winnipeg—Transcona, MB

Mr. Speaker, I rise on the same point of order. I would say to the Chair that accepting this amendment would certainly be in contravention of what has come to be the established practice with respect to the acceptance of amendments.

It is unfortunate that we have developed the habit whereby the same party that moves the motion immediately moves to amend it. However that practice developed, as you know, because without it the government had a tendency to amend the motion into something it could support. In doing so it could vitiate the purpose of motions moved by opposition parties and render opposition days useless.

The purpose of opposition days is to allow opposition parties to put forward a motion, have it debated and have the House decide on it or divide on it if necessary, and most likely, or it may even pass. However to permit this kind of practice would eviscerate the politics from opposition day and give the government the hammer, so to speak, to use its majority to amend motions. In theory, all opposition day motions would pass but they would, ultimately, all be motions designed by the government and not by the opposition.

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11:05 a.m.

Glengarry—Prescott—Russell Ontario

Liberal

Don Boudria LiberalLeader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, I rise on the same point of order. The opposition is arguing that it has a right to amend the motion but that the rest of the House does not have a similar right. I suggest that is not at all how motions are supposed to be dealt with in the House.

Need I remind the Speaker that for a political party to move a motion and amend it itself is a rather recent innovation of the House that is only two or three old. Prior to that motions were routinely amended.

Further, in the amendment of the hon. member across the way he is arguing that the program in question, the subject of the debate, is the immediate implementation of a particular initiative as opposed to the implementation of the same subject. I am arguing that if he can amend the main motion by referring to it as immediate, I can also propose an amendment to the amendment by substituting the word and making it a continued implementation.

I am not changing the sense of the original motion at all. We are arguing the implementation. The matter of whether the issue is continued or is immediate or started or otherwise is a matter of debate, not a matter of whether the amendment should be in order.

I submit that the amendment to the amendment is in order because it in no way damages the intent of the proposition that is on the order paper today, which is the implementation that the opposition is calling for. Therefore the amendment to the amendment is in order.

I draw the attention of the Chair to Erskine May and to the practices in effect in the House of Commons in the United Kingdom and say that the amendment to the amendment is perfectly in order.

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11:05 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Chuck Strahl Canadian Alliance Fraser Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, it is a pity that we are taking up valuable time in this regard. If the amendment to the amendment were allowed to stand in the government's name, it would be unprecedented in my time as House leader and in my memory here in eight years, in that the government is trying to eviscerate an opposition day motion by so doing.

If you allow this to take place, Mr. Speaker, opposition day motions will become a lark. For example, if we put forward a motion that condemns the government for its lack of action on paying out aid to farmers in crisis, it could be changed by the government to congratulate itself for its fine work in the farm crisis area.

You cannot allow the government to do this. If you allow it, the government House leader will never again allow a motion to reach the floor of the House of Commons because he will just amend it to one that is favourable to the government. He will simply change the motion to one which congratulates the government for its implementation of an ongoing program.

It would completely eviscerate opposition day motions. To allow a subamendment like this one is contrary to the letter of the standing orders, as I mentioned earlier, because it completely changes the motion.

I ask the government House leader to reconsider. This is the first time in the eight years I have been here that he has ever tried a stunt like this one, and I consider it a stunt. I ask him to withdraw it in the spirit of co-operation we had when working on other issues and to understand what he is doing by putting this subamendment forward.

If he continues with it, he is throwing down the gauntlet, saying that he will run the House with an iron hand and will not allow opposition members of parliament to bring forward anything that contradicts the government agenda.

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11:05 a.m.

Progressive Conservative

Peter MacKay Progressive Conservative Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS

Mr. Speaker, it is with some amusement that I join the discussion. The newfound friendliness and fondness that the opposition House leader had for the government House leader just a few short days ago seem to be crumbling.

With that aside, I find that what is taking place here is obviously an attempt by the government to hijack an opposition motion that is very legitimate in its intent and has opened up a discussion which is very fruitful and favourable to democracy.

The government House leader, as has been stated by the previous speaker, is very much trying to change the entire intent and spirit of what is being discussed in the motion.

As a long time defender of adhering to the rules of procedure, Mr. Speaker, you will know that is not supposed to take place on a supply day amendment. We are not to change the entire spirit and intent of the motion as the government is doing in the self-congratulatory way to which we are accustomed.

The motion is very serious. It once again raises the ire of the government because of its sensitivity of the particular subject matter. This day we have embarked upon will be very important and very interesting as we delve into discussions of the Prime Minister's activities in the Auberge Grand-Mère situation.

On a broader scale it is a discussion of the credibility of offices like the ethics counsellor, and the importance of what we say prior to elections and what we do after elections, which is a lesson for all of us. It is a lesson that Canadians are waiting for us to listen to.

I strongly urge you, Mr. Speaker, in your discretion not to allow the subamendment. I urge you to accept the submissions that other members have put forward in opposition to what the government House leader has suggested, which is obviously an attempt to hijack and reverse the intent of the motion before the House.

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11:10 a.m.

Bloc

Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to join my opposition colleagues in condemning this outrageous attempt by the government to denature—for that is exactly what it is, and I emphasize this for the benefit of the government House leader—the very idea of opposition days and the very essence of the Canadian Alliance motion.

When the government House leader attempts to play down the introduction of this practice in the House by saying that opposition motions have only been amended, or amendments brought to these amendments, for the past two or three years, I would remind him that this practice has been around much longer than that.

It first began when the Bloc Quebecois was the official opposition in this House, in other words just after the 1993 election. This has been an established practice in the House for almost seven years now.

This is why I would agree with those who say that we have never seen or gone along with the government introducing amendments to amendments introduced by the opposition parties on allotted days since, if memory services, we first came to this House, in 1993.

Clearly this practice of the opposition parties amending their own motion has become established practice in the House. Why? The simple answer, as the leader of the New Democratic Party points out, is that the government has taken to amending the opposition motion in order to vitiate its very purpose.

I would respectfully submit to you that what is going on right now has no other purpose than to vitiate the Canadian Alliance motion.

Not only is the government's outrageous attempt contrary to established practice in this House but, if you read the government's motion to amend the amendment, it vitiates, or denatures the very essence of, the motion.

I urge you strongly, Mr. Speaker, to reject this government motion to amend the amendment and to rule it out of order.

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11:15 a.m.

Scarborough—Rouge River Ontario

Liberal

Derek Lee LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, I will briefly speak to the procedural issue. I hope I can be helpful to the Chair.

The purpose of an amendment is to make an item under consideration more acceptable to the House. I submit that is what is intended by the subamendment. I would not view it as a wrecking amendment, and I hope the Chair would not view it as such.

The opposition has suggested that some political stuntery is involved in the subamendment. The opposition has proposed its own amendment by inserting an adverb or putting a new definition into the motion. The subamendment proposed by the government House leader merely changes the adverbial definer that was inserted in the amendment.

Standing Order 85 specifically authorizes and speaks to the issue of an amendment and subamendment to supply day motions. It is specifically authorized in Standing Order 85.

In terms of whether or not the government has done this before I regret I do not have a specific citation, but I am advised that the government has been offering amendments to supply day motions since the days of Prime Minister Louis St. Laurent back in the fifties. I am advised as well that it has occurred since 1993. In the next few moments a citation may find its way to the Chair. If I am wrong in that regard I apologize and stand corrected, but this is what I am informed.

I suggest the subamendment is certainly in order. It does not reverse, undermine, negate or denature the opposition motion dealing with a particular subject matter. I submit that it is in order. Some members in the House may find the subamendment refreshingly appropriate.

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11:15 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Gary Lunn Canadian Alliance Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Mr. Speaker, I rise on the same point of order. I am referring to the House of Commons Procedure and Practice , page 727, which states:

Amendments which have the effect of providing the basis for an entirely different debate are not in order. When a party has been allocated an allotted day and a subject has been proposed for debate by way of an opposition motion, the day should not be taken away by way of an amendment.

I would argue that when the government changes the words to “continuing to implement”, it is deliberately misleading the House. It is changing the entire context of the motion, as we are asking for immediate implementation. It is 180 degree diametrically different from the motion we have put forward.

If you follow what was written by the very astute former clerk of the House, Mr. Speaker, I would argue that there is no way you could possibly accept this subamendment.

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11:15 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Grant McNally Canadian Alliance Dewdney—Alouette, BC

Mr. Speaker, obviously the government House leader and the government are setting the tone right off the bat. We saw that in the response to the Speech from the Throne when the new member poked the Bloc in the eye. We are now seeing this procedural wrangling. We know the government House leader is an expert at this because he has had many years of practice in opposition. Perhaps he is time warping to those days.

The subamendment proposed by the government House leader is inconsistent with the main motion. I would direct you, Mr. Speaker, to Beauchesne's citation 580(2) which says:

A subamendment must attempt to explain the substance of the amendment and may not substitute an entirely new proposal.

The amendment by logical thought processes would indicate that the motion we are bringing forward is not currently in place and is not happening. That is why we are asking for it to be immediately put into place.

The government House leader's subamendment, by logical processes, would infer that this process is in place and should just keep going. The two are logically inconsistent with each other. It is a substantive change to the motion and should be ruled directly out of order.

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11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Stan Keyes Liberal Hamilton West, ON

Mr. Speaker, for clarification, for your consideration and for members opposite, I do not understand what would be more immediate than continued.

That aside, let us talk about the political stuntery that went on here. It is common knowledge that the opposition wants to put forward a motion in the House of Commons for consideration and for all to vote. In a procedural vote on an issue that may have been of interest to constituents watching, it is about now that constituents will change over to their favourite game show on the television set. This is the kind of thing that bores them to death.

The opposition refers to political stuntery and who brought it up. If the constituents are still watching, they might want to take this into consideration. The opposition leader made his speech. Then, for the benefit of the folks at home, members of the opposition decided to split their leader's time.

Why did they do that? They did that because the second opposition speaker, and this is directly related to this issue, will move an amendment to the motion. What that does is kill the opportunity for any other party in the House to move an amendment to the motion.

Where is the political stuntery in that? The opposition is claiming that we are politically—

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11:20 a.m.

The Speaker

With great respect, I know the hon. member for Hamilton West is trying to be helpful, but the Chair is looking for assistance on the admissibility, and only the question of the admissibility of the subamendment, not on what may have happened in the House for the benefit of the folks at home.

We are taking up time from the debate and I am concerned that it is going on a little long. Unless members have something that is directly relevant to the admissibility of the subamendment, I would prefer to bring this to a conclusion very quickly. If the hon. member for Hamilton West has something else on that point I will hear him.