House of Commons Hansard #29 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was quebec.

Topics

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1:10 p.m.

Liberal

Pierre Pettigrew Liberal Papineau—Saint-Denis, QC

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member's question is an extremely pertinent one. That is why I expressed a degree of impatience after my discussions with the new representative of the Bush administration, Bob Zoelleck.

There are people who insist on repeating false statements, even when they know they are wrong. This is the situation as far as the softwood lumber industry in the United States is concerned.

The parliamentary secretary, whom I thank for his speech this morning, has clearly demonstrated that this is an issue of market share. When the Americans see us with 30% of the market, that is okay, but the minute we start to pull ahead, because of the highly competitive nature of our industry with its modernized mills that are highly productive and therefore highly competitive, they try to rein us in.

Now the international systems and tribunals provide us with recourse and the rule of law applies. In fact, their stubbornness leads them to use certain tactics, which are regrettable but which are part and parcel of the legal systems under which we live.

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1:10 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Preston Manning Canadian Alliance Calgary Southwest, AB

Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for his remarks and I wish him well in the fight against American protectionism and the fight for free trade in this sector.

I would like to ask the minister a somewhat technical question, but one that is very important in terms of jobs and the Canadian interest in this question. As the minister will know, the lumber industry includes not just the primary sector but a secondary sector that is involved in remanufacturing of wood products, many of which are directed toward the United States.

The minister will also know that this sector is very large. It includes, I think, 300 independent producers in B.C., Alberta, Manitoba, Ontario and Quebec. It employs over 40,000 Canadians annually. Its production is about $4 billion annually in sales. The sector accounts for about 10% to 15% of Canada's exports to the U.S. under the current SLA.

The minister will also know that group is actively working on the development of a transparent and enforceable process through which Canada's secondary sector can be, from an administrative perspective, effectively excluded from any countervailing duties or from any other restrictions imposed on Canadian softwood lumber exports to the U.S. either now or in the future.

My question is, does the minister recognize the concerns of the secondary lumber sector and support its efforts to avoid injury when the current SLA comes to an end?

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1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Pierre Pettigrew Liberal Papineau—Saint-Denis, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for Calgary Southwest for his good wishes in this very difficult and complex file. I trust that we will all be able to work together on it, opposition and government.

Yes, we are very much aware of the differences between the primary producers and the secondary remanufacturing of wood. In the last agreement a great deal of secondary re-manufactured products were included. In our view, it is very important that American producers, when they act the way they are announcing they will act, have the same mentality and the same refinement in distinguishing it. We will monitor that very closely.

Obviously it will be up to U.S. producers, but n my view they should not have countervailing duties on any of the softwood, neither primary nor secondary groups. We will demonstrate that such measures are not legitimate because we are not subsidizing any part of our sector.

However, it will be important to monitor closely what products the Americans attack or put under investigation in early April if they decide to go that route. We will be able to demonstrate that we are not subsidizing either group, and we will do everything we can to protect both sides of the softwood lumber industry.

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1:15 p.m.

NDP

Svend Robinson NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

Mr. Speaker, as the minister will know, we strongly agree that the current softwood lumber agreement should not in any way be renewed and should be allowed to expire at the end of this month.

I have two very brief questions for the minister. As the minister knows, I represent British Columbia. One of the very serious concerns there is the dramatic increase in the volume of raw log exports from British Columbia. In 1997 the amount was a little over 100,000 cubic metres. Last year it was perhaps as much two million cubic metres.

The minister and the government are under pressure from some forest companies to reduce current restrictions on raw log exports. Will the minister make it clear to the House, to the people of Canada and particularly to the people of British Columbia that he will not in any way reduce restrictions on raw log exports and that in fact he will take steps to ensure there are even fewer raw logs exported?

Second, what is the response of the minister to the proposal by the B.C. minister of forests that he attempt to seek the appointment of a special envoy to negotiate a fair trade agreement with the United States so that we will not be into this destructive cycle of countervail, tariff and anti-dumping procedures after March 31?

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1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Pierre Pettigrew Liberal Papineau—Saint-Denis, QC

Mr. Speaker, I assure the member that whatever we do about the log exports from British Columbia it will not be done under pressure from the United States. Either the provinces or, as in the case of export control, the Government of Canada makes all the decisions for Canadian forestry practices. However, whatever we do it will never be because of pressure from the United States on this file on which we feel very strongly.

We thank the House for its support on this complex and difficult file.

In terms of the envoy, I had a conversation this morning with the British Columbia forest minister. The envoy idea was put forward by our government. It was not a suggestion the B.C. minister put forward but a suggestion our government put forward. I raised it with Bob Zoellick, the United States trade representative of the Bush administration. He sounded skeptical at first but has not rejected the idea. It could certainly allow us to have a calmer dialogue on facts, as I have tried to put in my own remarks. It is a suggestion our government supports because we initiated it.

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1:20 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Bill Casey Progressive Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Mr. Speaker, I too acknowledge how complex the situation is. It has tremendous potential to be divisive for the country and may pit four of the provinces against the other six. However we will work with the department if we are kept in the loop.

I have a couple of specific questions. First, as the minister knows, the maritime accord gives Atlantic Canada true free trade and the four Atlantic premiers have asked for the maritime accord to be extended. Will the minister assure the Atlantic provinces that any future agreement will assure the continuation of the free trade and protection from litigation that are provided under the maritime accord?

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1:20 p.m.

Liberal

Pierre Pettigrew Liberal Papineau—Saint-Denis, QC

Mr. Speaker, for the past 20 years the Atlantic provinces have been exempted from all quotas and any other restrictions the United States has imposed on the rest of our country. We would like all of Canada to benefit from free trade with the United States. We will fight very hard to maintain Atlantic Canada's complete access to the U.S. market. I want the same for British Columbia and every province.

We want free trade and we deserve free trade. We hope very much that the Americans will respect Atlantic Canada as they have for the past 20 years.

If the Americans move in early April I hope they will not target the Atlantic provinces. I hope they will recognize that the Atlantic provinces do not subsidize. I also hope they will recognize the great history we have had in the past 20 years. I would like the rest of the United States' producers to respect the rest of Canada as they have respected our Atlantic provinces in the last few years.

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1:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

At this point I see there are still members rising. I will put myself in the hands of the House as I believe I should, depending on the availability of the minister and the desire of the House to continue the questions to the minister. We have more than generously used the question and comment period.

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1:20 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Dick Harris Canadian Alliance Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Because this is such an incredibly important issue, and because the minister is here and has obviously said he would stay a little while, I would ask for unanimous consent of the House that we continue for as long as the minister may stay.

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1:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Is there unanimous consent?

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1:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

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1:20 p.m.

Bloc

Pierre Paquette Bloc Joliette, QC

Mr. Speaker, I have a very specific question for the minister.

Apparently many Americans and a minority of Canadians in some industrial sectors think that to avoid a trade war with the U.S., Canada should voluntarily impose an export tax on its lumber sold in the U.S.

I would like the minister to tell us if such an idea has been categorically rejected.

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1:20 p.m.

Liberal

Pierre Pettigrew Liberal Papineau—Saint-Denis, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to remain in the House a while longer. The only problem is that after question period, during which I will be available to answer questions from opposition members, I must appear before the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade. I do not think anyone could contend that the Minister for International Trade is not making himself totally available to his colleagues in parliament.

In response to the question of the hon. member for Joliette, who is the seconder of today's motion, I will say that this was the solution Bob Zoellick suggested when I met him. He asked me if we would consider that.

I can assure the House that there is absolutely no consensus that we should limit our access to the U.S. market through an export tax or any other means. There is absolutely no consensus in Canada for such a tax, which could be construed as an admission that we are subsidizing our industry, which, of course, we are not.

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1:25 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Dick Harris Canadian Alliance Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the minister's seeming support for this motion, but I have some questions to ask him about the fact that the government appears to have come considerably late to this party.

As far back as three years ago in the softwood lumber agreement the signs and evidence of market distortion, the harm it was causing our industry and indeed the creation of the have and have not quota holders were becoming quite prominent. It is only within the last several weeks that the minister and the government have been talking about this issue in a public fashion. The minister may well have been talking to industry leaders over the last year but it has only been in the last several weeks that he has talked about it publicly.

As a result, the Americans have beaten us to the punch and have come out with their sabre rattling. We have had lots of time to work on this. We have had as much as two or three years to try to drum up support south of the border for our position with the coalition of senators.

Why has the minister and the government come so late to the party in a public way?

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1:25 p.m.

Liberal

Pierre Pettigrew Liberal Papineau—Saint-Denis, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am flabbergasted by the question because we have been working very hard at it for quite a few years. If the opposition failed to ask me questions on the issue over the last few months and years, it is certainly not my fault.

We have been working in Washington through our embassy and through the lobbyists we have hired. We have also been working with industry from all regions of Canada and with the provinces. We have helped build a coalition in Washington of home builders and consumers. We have built strong arguments and cases that we have put forward time and again. I can tell the member that our government is ready.

Why would we have come to the House if an agreement that would be terminated March 31 was the wish of everyone? I do not know how I could have come to the House without having done exactly what we have been doing.

There is a consensus that we let the agreement terminate. I can tell the member that we have mustered all the support we could in Washington. We have consulted and maintained a united front on the Canadian industry both with the provinces and the industries themselves. We are in much better shape to meet the challenges that are awaiting us.

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1:25 p.m.

NDP

Bev Desjarlais NDP Churchill, MB

Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague from the Bloc, the member for Joliette, asked the minister what his and the government's position was on the export tax. The minister acknowledged that there was no consensus.

The question was not whether there was consensus. We recognize that there is not consensus. I believe the question, certainly from my perspective, was whether the minister and the government supported an export tax and whether they would support an export tax as another way of buckling to U.S. pressure?

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1:25 p.m.

Liberal

Pierre Pettigrew Liberal Papineau—Saint-Denis, QC

Mr. Speaker, I think my answer to the earlier question was quite clear. There is no such consensus in the country and the government reflects the consensus we have been building and working on. We will not admit that we are subsidizing our industry.

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1:25 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Gerald Keddy Progressive Conservative South Shore, NS

Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for staying to take questions because it is an extremely important issue.

I have not been able to participate in the debate, but there was a comment made about the have and have not provinces for quota holding. The member who made that comment should take a look at some of the facts before us.

Six provinces in Canada now enjoy free trade with the United States in softwood lumber. In Atlantic Canada that goes back to the Webster-Ashburton treaty of 1842. There is a lot of history in reciprocity of softwood lumber products between Maine and Atlantic Canada.

Because we have six out of ten provinces that enjoy free trade now it is the position of the Conservative Party that we should not be encompassing all six provinces with the other four that are suffering under a softwood lumber agreement. We should be seeking free trade for those four provinces directly. We could support that from our position. I would like to hear the minister's position on that.

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1:30 p.m.

Liberal

Pierre Pettigrew Liberal Papineau—Saint-Denis, QC

Mr. Speaker, the government stands for Canada, for the Canadian forestry industry. We do not want the six provinces that have free trade right now to be subjected to quotas. It is the last thing I would ever want. I want to free the rest of the country from the restrictions and the quotas we have right now. I want to free British Columbians, Albertans and Quebecers from the self-restrictions to which they have been subjected. I want to keep our country united.

I do not want to affect the Atlantic provinces and the privileged position they have had in the last five years. I am glad for them. It has served them well. I am glad for the Atlantic provinces, but I want to fight to maintain a Canadian position and not play east against west or any other division. I want Canada as a country to be united behind all our softwood lumber producers. They deserve a free and total access to the United States market. This is what American consumers want.

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1:30 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Philip Mayfield Canadian Alliance Cariboo—Chilcotin, BC

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. It is my understanding that the House had agreed that we could ask short questions of the minister as long as he cared to stay. I come from an area that would be devastated by this and I would very much like to ask a short question under the rules that we established.

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1:30 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The rules were established as indicated by the hon. member but, as he has also mentioned, at the availability of the minister. In one intervention not long ago he mentioned that he had to prepare for question period and that he had to testify as a witness at committee. The minister will be available all afternoon in these other forums, so I think we will have to resume debate.

With the greatest of respect, I know the hon. member for Cariboo—Chilcotin has been a very active participant in the debate since I have been in the chair and I suppose all day on this very important issue. It is my understanding that the minister is not able to stay right now, so I will have to resume debate.

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1:30 p.m.

Liberal

Stephen Owen Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

Mr. Speaker, I join the Minister for International Trade in supporting the motion. I also commend the Bloc Quebecois for the admirable dedication to the cause of Canadian unity that the resolution exemplifies.

The issue of subsidies in the free trade of softwood lumber to the United States is one that is dear to the hearts of all British Columbians. It is an essential aspect of our economy and our social fabric.

When we look at the difference between forest practices in the United States and Canada, which is at the heart of any claim to subsidization, it is a matter of whether we have private land or public land logging. In Canada, as has been noted, 90% of logging is done on public land, with 10% on private land. In the United States it is the other way around, with private logging making up 90% of its logging practices.

The sustainability which the public demands in Canada of those logging practices is absolutely critical to the question of whether or not there are subsidies. It is also critical to the health of the economy, society and environment of Canada. Sustainability depends on a balance among those things. We simply will not have economic strength if we do not have social stability. We will not have social stability unless we have environmental integrity. We must keep those in balance.

In listening to the debate as I have with great interest today, I have been taken by the amount of unity across the country that has been expressed by many hon. members from different parties. In that spirit I want to make my next statement very gently. I simply observe that sometimes the failure from the left is that it believes government can do everything. Of course it cannot. Sometimes there could be a failure of the right as well while properly mistrusting big labour and big government but not sufficiently mistrusting big business.

That is particularly ironic given the fact that so much faith is put in the marketplace. The greatest threat to the marketplace and the cause of market failure is often uncompetitive practices and large monopolies. In the spirit of what we are saying in the House, I should like to touch on those two points.

In terms of the economic issues, we have heard of the large importance to Canada as a whole of softwood lumber exports to the United States. That is of particular interest and importance to British Columbia, making up approximately 47% of those exports, totalling almost $11 billion.

My hon. colleagues from Prince George—Bulkley Valley and Cariboo—Chilcotin have properly recognized the importance to their communities and resource based communities around British Columbia of sustainable support of this industry.

The forest industry in British Columbia has contributed greatly over the last decade to the forest management practices that we enjoy in British Columbia and demonstrate across Canada and around the world. These are not subsidized. Stumpage rates have been significantly increased, as well as forest practices over the past decade.

With the forest industry agreement in British Columbia, those extra stumpage charges have been dedicated to forest renewal, restoration of stream beds and replanting, new research in forest sensitive forest practices, retraining of forest workers into different jobs, and more sustainable practices. They are also dedicated toward value added manufacturing which is to be the lifeblood of the future of diversified economies in resource dependent communities. The forest industry resource based communities have all done their part in British Columbia to make sure that we continue to enjoy economic strength from this vitally important industry.

Social stability in communities, in British Columbia and Canada as a whole is based on economic strength not only in resource based communities but for the general public. The issues of health care, education, social structure and infrastructure are dependent on a strong economy. The resource based economies, the forest industry above all, is the lifeblood of that economic strength in many parts of Canada, particularly British Columbia.

Let me turn to the environmental balance which is so critically important and which underlies the strength of the argument that we do not have subsidies, certainly in British Columbia or anywhere else in Canada.

Over the entire last century we have taken on the responsibility of the idea of sustainable yield logging. However, in the last 20 years, the meaning of what that total yield should be has changed as we have gone to integrated resource management. We look to all interests of society in the integrity of the environment and to non-forest product uses for our forests. This is reflected in the cost of doing business.

Forest companies in British Columbia and across Canada are required to go through detailed planning processes that usually involve multiparty planning processes which adds considerably to their costs but to the balance to be brought to those multiple uses of the forests. They must observe very high logging standards in terms of road building, stream side protection and reforestation.

We do not deforest in Canada. We replant all our forests. Those forests are not all the forests. We protect other values like old growth values and parks. We have doubled the amount of parks from 6% to 12% in British Columbia over the last eight years. This is one of the costs that goes into our logging practices which eliminates any argument of subsidy.

We have heard comments and concerns, properly placed, that logging practices and subsidies to industry not destroy our environment. The worry from the NDP is that perhaps free trade of the Americas, if not NAFTA, may contribute to the destruction of our forest ecosystems. That need not be so and I do not believe it is so in British Columbia or across the country.

What we have in NAFTA is an environmental parallel agreement for environmental co-operation which allows non-governmental organizations to challenge governments, in much the same way the hon. member for Burnaby—Douglas spoke of in international corporations challenging governments under chapter 11 of NAFTA. That is available under the commission for environmental co-operation at the NAFTA environmental commission.

When we look to Quebec City and free trade of the Americas, environment and labour conditions will be parallel agreements to any agreement that Canada signs. In addition to those that are included in NAFTA, there will be agreements on human rights, democratic development and education. Free trade of the Americas as negotiated in Quebec City will build on the experience of NAFTA, the importance of environmental integrity and the effective enforcement of environmental standards which Canada is bound by and which underline the non-subsidy in terms of our forest practices.

We have a healthy industry in the country. We are economically and socially dependent upon it and it must continue. I am very pleased to support the resolution for a Canadian unified position behind its forest industry with all the integrity it practises to accomplish fair trade access to American markets.

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1:40 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Philip Mayfield Canadian Alliance Cariboo—Chilcotin, BC

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for Vancouver Quadra for his comments and for his knowledgeable participation.

A number of people have a lot to say about British Columbia and about the rest of our country, particularly in other forums. For example, I recently received a copy of a letter from the German Tourism Bureau expressing concern about the use of our land mass. It does not think it should send tourists to Canada or to British Columbia because of it.

I am also aware that there are stories about a mythical land of the Great Bear Rain Forest. A bear with a gene mutation that is white rather than brown or black has spiritual qualities and is called the spirit bear.

What effort is the Government of Canada making to influence our position in this trade difficulty with American consumers? We have a toehold there. We have heard that retail marketers do not want to have duties imposed. They want to have free trade. We understand those consumers would like to have free trade because houses are $1,000 or $1,300 more with the duties applied.

What is the Government of Canada doing to promote our position and put down the falsehoods, the untruths and even the lies that are being told about how we produce lumber and look after our crown lands?

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1:40 p.m.

Liberal

Stephen Owen Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for his question. The Minister for International Trade gave quite an account of the list of initiatives over the last number of years that the Government of Canada has taken to build a coalition of support in Washington to advance the argument the hon. member is mentioning.

The issue of the consumer interest of the United States public in avoiding what in effect is a tax on house building of over $1,000 U.S. per household is something that should and is being brought forward and a coalition built around it. The Government of Canada has been working hard over the last two years to build a coalition within Canada to work with forest product companies and their legal advisers to prepare and advance the argument as effectively as possible.

Over the last 20 years the Government of Canada has demonstrated its zeal in promoting a unified Canadian interest in the softwood trade by aggressively arguing against countervails in the past and winning those arguments before international trade tribunals. The government has expressed its strong intention to continue aggressively on that course.

My hon. colleague made an interesting comment regarding the Great Bear Rain Forest. I think of it as the central and mid-coast of British Columbia and outstanding old growth forests. When we look at free trade in softwood products we must think of marketplace democracy as well, which not only works in favour of forest companies but in favour of the environment.

We need to have a willing seller and a willing buyer for free trade in order to underline the importance of it. Marketplace democracy has played a large part in the largest forest companies in British Columbia. Sitting down with the largest environmental groups and working out a joint solution to logging practice on the west coast will be demonstrably at the forefront of those practices in the world. That is just a further expression of the extent to which Canadian producers and other aspects of our society have come together in the interest of Canada.

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1:45 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Grant McNally Canadian Alliance Dewdney—Alouette, BC

Mr. Speaker, I thank you and the minister for allowing us to have an extended question period on this topic. That was a noble gesture by both yourself and the minister.

The question I have for my colleague from Vancouver Quadra has to do with the linkage of free trade and the softwood lumber agreement with other sectors of trade. That spectre was raised by the Prime Minister, but there were some contradictory comments made by other ministers of the crown. Would the member agree with the notion that was raised by the Prime Minister that perhaps we should link the free trade agreement with other sectors, such as energy, or should we not go down that route? What would his opinion be on that?