Debates of March 29th, 2001

Freshwater Exports

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

Order, please. The hon. member for Winnipeg—Transcona clearly did not like the answer. That is apparent to everyone. He also knows that it is quite unparliamentary to use that kind of language in the House.

I would hope that he would be perhaps more discrete in his question. He is welcome to ask a supplementary question that we can hear, but I hope he would refrain from the use of such language and carry out the proper decorum of the House.

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I asked the Deputy Prime Minister a question. Will he on behalf of the federal Government of Canada get up and repudiate the premier of Newfoundland who intends to jeopardize, thanks to NAFTA which does not have an exemption for water despite what the Liberals say, the entire country's water supply?

Will they repudiate that today and bring in a ban?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I think I had better get up before the hon. member does himself some damage. Canadians agree that we need to protect the integrity of Canada's water resources. It is our strategy, as indicated by the hon. House leader, to prohibit bulk water removal from major drainage basins in Canada.

It is my understanding that the new premier of Newfoundland has simply said that he is thinking about the issue and he will not do anything about it until the fall. This gives us time to confirm through the legislation our position on behalf of all Canadians. We are working on behalf of all Canadians, on this water issue. We will continue to do so and I am sure—

[The Speaker]

The right hon. member for Calgary Centre.

Prime Minister

[Joe Clark, Progressive Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I have for the Deputy Prime Minister some straightforward questions about the handwritten document the Prime Minister claims to be a bill of sale.

Will the Deputy Prime Minister tell us: Did both parties sign that document at the same time? In what town or city and province was that note signed, and were there any witnesses?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I think the document speaks for itself.

[Joe Clark, Progressive Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the document is as silent on that issue as the government has been in answer to legitimate questions from all four parties in the House.

In the Vander Zalm case Mr. Justice Ted Hughes' finding of a conflict of interest was based on his judgment that Mr. Vander Zalm “had retained an interest in the financial well-being of his company”. Does the Deputy Prime Minister believe that to be an adequate basis for a finding of conflict of interest?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I cannot comment on Mr. Vander Zalm, but I can say that the Prime Minister did exactly what the hon. leader of the fifth party said in a scrum on March 13:

The way the Prime Minister could settle this is to lay upon the table of the House of Commons the agreement of sale between himself and Jonas Prince.

He has done that. Why should he question our doing exactly what he asked us to do? I guess he lacks confidence in himself at the end of the day.

[Diane Ablonczy, Canadian Alliance, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is amazing what two sophisticated lawyers can draw up that causes even more confusion than it clears.

Here is another question for the Deputy Prime Minister to evade. We know that J&AC holdings supposedly owned a 25% interest in the golf course, yet the bill of sale only deals with “approximately 22% of the shares”.

Could the Deputy Prime Minister shed any light at all on what happened to the other approximately 3% shares of the golf course?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the agreement in 1999, I believe it was in September, between Mr. Prince's company and Mr. Michaud's company made very clear that Mr. Prince's company sold to Mr. Michaud's company all the shares he had purchased from the Prime Minister in September 1993.

[Diane Ablonczy, Canadian Alliance, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I suggested there would be an evasion and there was because that was not the question. The question was not about what Mr. Prince sold. It was about what Mr. Chrétien sold, which was approximately—

[The Speaker]

Order, please. I think the hon. member knows that she cannot refer to other hon. members by name. I would invite her to comply with the rules in that respect.

[Diane Ablonczy, Canadian Alliance, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Mr. Speaker, what happened to the other approximately 3% of the shares that were not in this agreement drawn up by two sophisticated lawyers? Could the Deputy Prime Minister shed any light on that question?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the agreement between the Prime Minister's company and Mr. Prince's company was intended and did cover all the shares owned by the Prime Minister.

The agreement between Mr. Prince's company and Mr. Michaud's company in turn sold those shares to Mr. Michaud's company. There is no missing 3%. It is a figment of the hon. member's imagination.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Mr. Speaker, just so everyone understands, I will provide an example.

If a person sold his house in 1993, he has no interest in its resale six years later, unless he held the mortgage, a lien, or some interest in the property.

Is the Prime Minister, because of his involvement in the 1999 sale, not confirming in writing the fact that he still had interests in the Grand-Mère golf club in 1999?

[Brian Tobin, Liberal, Minister of Industry]

Mr. Speaker, about 1 o'clock today fire trucks pulled up to the building and we all left the building. As it turned out the incident was like question period. There was neither smoke nor fire.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Mr. Speaker, that is the sort of response that would do well in a fire sale.

The Prime Minister has said on a number of occasions in the House that he had not owned shares in the golf club since 1993.

In 1999, by being party to the agreement, he acknowledged he still had an interest in his shares of the Grand-Mère golf club.

How does he explain the obvious contradiction between his word and his signature?

[Brian Tobin, Liberal, Minister of Industry]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister has had no interest in and no ownership of the golf course since November 1993. What he did have was an interest in being paid for the shares that he sold in November 1993. What his agent achieved in 1999 was payment for those shares.

[Grant McNally, Canadian Alliance, Dewdney—Alouette, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister told the House on Tuesday that his lawyer, Debbie Weinstein, was “my trustee with another person because we all have two trustees for managing our assets”.

Will the government tell us the name of the second trustee and what his or her role was in the Grand-Mère golf club deal?

[Brian Tobin, Liberal, Minister of Industry]

Mr. Speaker, all those questions have been dealt with by the ethics counsellor who, on behalf of members of cabinet and 1,400 public officials, manages all confidential information on behalf of all those who are required to file with the ethics counsellor.

We are not going to get up in the House and start going through every file of every official, including the Prime Minister, simply because questions are being asked.

I am surprised that we have not been asked yet today whether the Prime Minister puts his pants on one leg at a time.

[Grant McNally, Canadian Alliance, Dewdney—Alouette, BC]

Mr. Speaker, that is another non-answer from the industry minister. Let us try again.

The minister is responsible for the Canadian Business Corporations Act. For over a week we have been asking him whether the Grand-Mère Golf Club followed the rules, but he has been dancing and evading that question. The letter from the head of his corporations branch says that the corporate records will have to be altered retroactively to be brought into compliance with the act.

Will the minister simply answer my question? With regard to the corporate registry of these shares, did the Grand-Mère Golf Club break the law?

[Brian Tobin, Liberal, Minister of Industry]

Mr. Speaker, an examination has been completed of those corporate records. The direction has been given with respect to the information that must be filed. Once that information is filed it is made public and available to everybody in Canada.

With respect to that examination, it has been carried out under the supervision of the deputy minister of industry whose reputation for integrity, I assume all members would agree, is completely above reproach.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Laurentides, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister has said that the lawyers put everything necessary into the 1999 agreement. This is true, even a clause to compensate purchaser Michaud in the event of legal proceedings. This guarantee of compensation was given by the Prime Minister himself.

Since when does someone who claims to no longer have an interest in a business intervene in a transaction offer to pay the costs of any potential lawsuit?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, it is my understanding that these documents represented what lawyers felt were necessary to end the matter in a full and final way through, what I guess lawyers call, an abundance of caution.

This does not change the fact that the Prime Minister sold the shares in November 1993 before he became Prime Minister and that it was Mr. Prince who had the full ownership of all the shares the Prime Minister owned before November 1993, who in turn sold them turn to Mr. Michaud. Those are the facts of the matter.