House of Commons Hansard #47 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was rural.

Topics

Resource IndustriesGovernment Orders

10:30 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Andy Burton Canadian Alliance Skeena, BC

Madam Chairman, I am somewhat heartened by the discussion that has gone on tonight.

I am a person who has lived in a resource based riding for the last 42 years. I have earned my living from resource production. Basically mining but certainly forestry is a big producer in my area. I am talking about northwestern British Columbia, which is probably a bit of a microcosm of the natural resource history of Canada. We have had mines come and go. We have had the forestry industry wax and wane. It is a real indication of how critical and how important resource industries are to the local economy but how tenuous they are when it comes to world commodity prices and situations that affect them.

I would like to give a little history on some of the mines that have come and gone since I lived in that riding over the past 42 years. I started out at the north end in Cassiar, which was a world famous asbestos mine. Asbestos has its connotations for some, but it has produced a lot of products for the Canadian export economy and has created a great deal of wealth for the north over its lifespan. It is no longer there for various reasons.

The mine at Stewart, a world famous gold, silver, lead and zinc mine, is long gone but was a real producer in its time. Mines come and go. We have Eskay Creek producing today. It is a world class silver producer with some very substantial gold values as well. It is an incredible mine. It will be mined out, but it is there today and is producing wealth for the north and for Canada.

Windy Craggy, which we heard a lot about a few years ago, was a potential world class copper, cobalt and gold property. They spent something like $50 million proving up the ore body and going into pre-feasibility studies and had the rug pulled out from under them for mainly environmental reasons. That is a real tragedy in terms of a resource that could have produced thousands and thousands of man years of jobs and billions of dollars of revenue and contributed hundreds of millions of dollars into government coffers over 30 or 40 years with the potential for other mine development in that area.

It is a very pristine area but if done properly these things can be done. Balance is the key to the whole development of our natural resources. There is a price to pay for everything but the price has to be acceptable. If we can come up with an acceptable way for development, whether oil and gas, minerals, forestry, hydro electric or whatever, some projects are doable and some are not. There has to be that balance. We have lost that balance to a large degree and that is something we have to try to get back, because of the potential for the wealth of Canada that can be generated. We cannot forget that.

There are some other mines that have come up such as the Grand Isle copper mine. In my little town of Stewart there was the Grand Duke copper mine which was the world's largest underground copper mine at one time. It was huge, having a thousand men working there. There are still millions of pounds of copper underground there, but the mine is gone. It is closed down. It is not viable to operate for a number of reasons which I will get into at the end of my 10 minutes.

If we took a thousand jobs out of a town the size of Stewart, it would be down to 500 people. When jobs are gone, the community and the people suffer. We are lucky we have the Huckleberry mine. It is not in my riding but the ore is hauled into the port of Stewart. It is a copper mine that is producing today, marginally viable, but it is luckily enough still producing. We have the Kemess mine, which is a fairly new one. It is a copper mine in northwestern B.C.

We have to encourage these types of developments. Unfortunately it is getting more and more difficult for mining companies not only to find new ore bodies but to develop them because of red tape, restrictions and problems that are put in their way.

We have the potential for oil and gas. In northeastern B.C. it is booming. Fort St. John, Fort Nelson and all along the Alberta border and into Alberta is booming area with oil and gas development. I envy them. It is creating jobs and putting food on the tables of families and creating revenue for governments. That is what we need to do.

On the east coast we have Hibernia and Sable Island producing oil and gas. Hibernia is a huge benefit to the eastern part of Canada. On the west coast we have the potential for oil and gas that is 10 times that of Hibernia. It is huge, but nothing is happening.

We have a moratorium on exploration, not on production but on exploration. We are not even allowed to go out there and have a look at it. The message I want to send to government is that it is time we took a real hard look at this. Technology has evolved. The environmental restrictions are there and there are ways and means of doing things that were not there 30 years ago when the moratorium was put on.

The potential is there, 10 times Hibernia, for pulling B.C. out of the economic doldrums which it is in right now through no fault of the government. I guess we all contribute. It needs to change. We need to do something about it.

The pulp and paper industry in my area is absolutely critical to feeding families and putting food on the table. The FCI pulp mill is in Prince Rupert. The communities of Terrace, Kitimat, Stewart, Smithers and Hazelton depend on that forest resource. It is getting tougher to be able to develop resources. For a number of reasons we are able to develop resources but the cost is rising and it is getting tougher.

The point I wish to make is that if there is a mountain of gold but the gold cannot be produced at a profit it is a waste. If it is not ore it is a waste. It is that simple. That is the problem we have today.

Ninety miles north of my home in the Stewart area is what is called the Ground Hog coal field. It has been known for almost 100 years. It is a world class anthracite coal deposit. It is the cleanest burning coal. It is a wonderful product.

We actually shipped coal to Newcastle from there on a test basis. A hundred thousand tonnes of Groundhog coal was shipped through the port of Stewart some 10 or 12 years ago. It has not been developed. There are reasons for that. It is not economically viable. The companies that own it look at these projects and because of all the hoops that have to be jumped through and world markets and commodity prices that all contribute to the bottom line. If there is no bottom line they do not develop.

We are having difficulties with the fishery which is another natural resource. In my maiden speech I touched on the Pacific salmon treaty and some of the fisheries management difficulties that we are having on the west coast. There are some real difficulties in the herring roe and kelp fishery in terms of licences going one way or another and the balance not being there any more. The fish industry is very concerned about this.

We have potential in water, another natural resource. We have the Kemano project, a hydro electric project that produces power for Kitimat. It is a huge project that has been there for many years and yet Kemano completion was shut down. There was a second stage to the original project which was shut down.

We have to ask ourselves why these things are happening. There is something wrong. The potential is just absolutely phenomenal and this is one small corner of Canada, northwestern British Columbia. I am sure it is happening all over the country. We need to ask ourselves what we can do. The backbone of Canada is its natural resources and its people. We have to look at providing long term benefits to communities when we produce these resources.

I know that is a concern of my colleague across the floor. It is a message I am getting loud and clear. Over the past 40 years resource communities have gone through the ebbs and flows of peaks and valleys. The valleys are getting deeper unfortunately and the peaks are getting a lot less frequent.

There has to be long term benefits accruing to these communities. That is something that we really did not deal with in the past very well. We have to look at that to see how we can stabilize this community, especially when we develop finite resources such as metals, minerals, oil and gas. Forestry is a little different because it is a renewable resource. If we deal with that properly we can have trees forever. I will get arguments on that, but I know we can if we do it right.

People is the resource that gets forgotten very often. How many times have I seen a mine shut down, all kinds of government funds come in to help people move away and relocate and then the town dies? We have then lost a lot of the good people and the potential for developing something else becomes more difficult because the workforce is gone. It just compounds itself.

We have to recognize and understand some of these things. What can we do to encourage our resource industries? The taxation aspects are critical. The industry has to be allowed to make a profit to reinvest. Flow through taxing for mining was mentioned. That is a good start. We need to pursue that a lot further.

As an example. in B.C. last year roughly $25 million was spent on mining exploration. We need to spend $150 million per year to maintain a level that would see some new mines coming out in the future. There is a huge problem that has to be dealt with.

Security of tenure is critical to the mining and forest industries. That is a big problem, especially in British Columbia given land claims. There are a lot of messages here.

A program put in many years ago by the Conservative government in 1957-58 was called roads to resources. That opened up the whole northwest corner of British Columbia as well as, I think, a number of other areas in Canada. That is something the government should take a look at again in regard to some sort of program that would allow some of the more remote areas with huge potential to develop. I am not saying to subsidize anything. I think industry has to stand on its own two feet, but government's role is to provide the basic infrastructure of power, roads, ports and so on.

I see that my colleagues across are nodding, so I assume they are hearing me. I do appreciate that. I have enjoyed this opportunity, Madam Chairman. I think it is a good format and we should continue it.

Resource IndustriesGovernment Orders

10:45 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Ajax—Uxbridge, ON

Madam Chairman, I want to thank the hon. member for Skeena. I thought some of his comments were very interesting. I have just spent a little time in British Columbia in the community of Kimberley, which is closer to Cranbrook. I was also surprised at the reliance of the community on local resources.

Clearly from his own experience the hon. member has quite a bit of knowledge on what is needed. How does a resource based industry or how do resource based communities such as the ones he alluded to in his area compete, given globalization and given the need for shareholders' rights to be first and foremost in terms of profit making? Even if we are the most productive country in the world, at some point or other it would appear that Canada does not always have the edge, short of giving away any type of tax concession, which seems to be the only alternative.

Are there other areas where the member believes that Canada may have a competitive advantage vis-à-vis other nations that may produce the same product but per unit much more cheaply? Because of course there are other factors such as warmer climates and cheaper labour which might also enter into this. What does the member think would help his community, certainly in light of depressed prices like we see in the cycle he referred to earlier?

Resource IndustriesGovernment Orders

10:45 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Andy Burton Canadian Alliance Skeena, BC

Madam Chairman, obviously there is no panacea that will solve all these problems overnight. I fully understand and recognize that, but I think we have to start working toward some of these solutions.

The member mentioned Kimberley. Of course the Sullivan Mine has been going for almost 100 years. It is due to close very shortly. I think it probably is finally mined out. Mines do not last forever. They are finite resources. However, by the same token, the incentives can be there for industry when it is developing and getting the mines into a production stage. As somebody mentioned earlier, a mine starts to close the day it opens, because eventually the ore body is depleted. The key is to maximize the ore body, as I think somebody mentioned. That is a very good term.

The resources will not last forever, but we must maximize them. We can do that by being the best in the world at what we do, as Canada certainly is when it comes to mining and forestry and, I am sure, a number of other industries, like agriculture. We are pretty damned good at fishing too, maybe too good but I do not know about that, because there are some problems. We have to be the best in the world at what we are doing. I think we can do that as Canadians.

There is a role for government, as I said earlier, in providing basic infrastructure. I think that is key. We must have power, roads and ports. Those three things have to be in place. We might include railroads to a degree, although that has more of a private sector aspect. It did not 150 years ago, but today I think that is more for the private sector.

Then there is the tax climate and flow through shares and things like that. I am not suggesting subsidies. I do not believe in them myself. I do not think that is the way to go. I think the answer is a tax regime that is amenable to investment and allows profits to be made, to be reinvested and to create more jobs. I think that is the answer and we just have to work toward that.

Resource IndustriesGovernment Orders

10:50 p.m.

Liberal

Rick Laliberte Liberal Churchill River, SK

Madam Chairman, the member raised the concept of roads to resources, a policy from the late 1950s. How you look at that depends on which end of the road you were at in regard to whether the program was a good thing, because the policy then was more a colonization policy. The colonization I talk about is the unexploited north.

In our region in Saskatchewan, it brought the roads from the south straight up north, whereas the traditional transportation route was east-west. The northern communities were east-west oriented, but the road to resources program criss-crossed it north-south. It still disrupts the whole flow of our community and our region.

Going to the next step of development in the hinterlands, the frontier, the mid-north or the boreal forest, I think it is time that the true social, economic and ecological balance, or what we call sustainable development, should be challenged. It is time for us to be responsible. People in the north have to be part of their development. They cannot just watch the resource trucks come up and go down with the ecological impact and the transition that takes place.

I think that resources, especially non-renewable resources, have to leave legacies. In my region there are no research and development institutes in the boreal forest. There are none. All the research is done in southern universities and in corporate centres to the south. The region is still like a colony.

I would like us to take a responsible look at the northern regions. Let us develop those areas. If people want to develop the area, they should move there, pay the taxes, circulate in the economy and create an economic cycle, where one dollar can go to the Mac's store, another dollar can go to the laundromat and another dollar can go to the local car dealer. Right now it is still like the roads to resources program. Forestry, mining, oil and gas are taken from the north and we turn around and get our goods at the Wal-Mart in the shopping mall to the south. That has to change. I think an economic cycle should be created in these northern regions.

I would like to hear what the hon. member's experiences are in northern B.C. compared to what mine have been in my area.

Resource IndustriesGovernment Orders

10:50 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Andy Burton Canadian Alliance Skeena, BC

Madam Chairman, I fully concur with the hon. member's concerns. I think I said earlier that long term and lasting benefits must accrue to the resource based communities. I think that is where we really have failed in the past, like in the community I used to live in. I moved away when I became a member of parliament, to a more urban area. Believe me when I say that I really miss my quiet rural life, but I am enjoying this too.

Benefits have to accrue. There is no question about it. Times have changed. In the past people went in to get resources, got them out of there and that was the end of it. What was left behind was left behind. I do not think that is acceptable any more. It is a shame that it has gone as far as it has.

As I was going to say, the community I used to live in has gone from a peak population of 2,500 when the Grand Duke mine was operating to 500 people today. We have had a few humps and bumps in the meantime, but it is very difficult for these small communities that are resource based.

Yes, there has to be something left behind, whatever it might be. As the member suggests, it could be forestry research centres or northern campuses for universities and those types of things. That is something that needs to be addressed. A lot of these issues are much more provincial than federal, but I think this is a good place to suggest some of these things and possibly funnel some funds toward it in the future.

My main experience with the roads to resources was, of course, the Stewart-Cassiar highway. It was done under that roads to resources program in 1957-1958, in that era. It basically built a road from Cassiar to Tidewater and Stewart so that the product could flow not through the Yukon, unfortunately for Whitehorse, but more directly to Tidewater.

The Kemess mine right now hauls its concentrate further eastward to hit railhead at Mackenzie to go to Vancouver. It is hauling it further that way than it would have to straight out to Tidewater and Stewart. It is going in the wrong direction and it is going 1,000 miles to Vancouver. It does not make sense. The mining company itself cannot afford to build that road. A road is proposed, but if there were some co-operation among the federal and provincial levels of government and the industry, there are other potential ore bodies in there that could be developed if a road were there. Also, the forest industry would be extremely happy to see such a road.

These are the types of things we need to look at. What is the potential for natural resource development if government gets involved in some form of basic infrastructure, maybe not building the road per se but assisting with it? That is what I am saying.

Resource IndustriesGovernment Orders

10:55 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Ajax—Uxbridge, ON

Madam Chairman, I will be sharing my time with the member for Churchill River. I have attended for two hours now. I am not as patient, of course, as the hon. minister for rural development, but I have sat many times very pensively watching his work and his deliberations. I applaud his efforts, not only for being here for all these very good and valued questions but also for being the first, I think, to deal with one of the more substantive issues that confront the House of Commons, usually in a very partisan and very confrontational way.

Tonight, my comments will deal with a subject that is perhaps a sort of hub of the major issues of the day concerning the energy sector and the market structure. We see now that oil prices have increased, although they have not reached $28 a barrel yet, and we also see prices at the pump of 80 cents a litre in Toronto and 90 cents in other areas such as in Quebec, and even a little higher, depending on tax variations.

I am concerned. I cannot for the life of me think of something that is more debilitating to bringing us together, under the question of not just our nation but of natural resources, and to overcoming the divide between rural and urban sectors in our economy than knowing that the people who produce the product—and knowing that there could be an abundance of jobs in those areas—are at the same time perhaps suspect on the part of those who are consuming the products at the other end.

Consumers across Canada, whether they be in rural or urban areas, quite often are subjected to very high prices for products. At the other end, of course, those who produce the products, whether they be miners or farmers or those who are working on the derricks in this country, will find that the price may be satisfactory. However, no one is making a whack of cash at the platform level and certainly jobs are being created there.

I say all of this in the context of the government's interest in the area of continental energy policy. I am perhaps borrowing from previous members of parliament and from one who is no doubt familiar, Madam Chairman, to you and to the Governor General, Ray Hnatyshyn. As a member from Saskatchewan, he said on the question of a continental energy policy that for Canada it is like swapping partners but with a bachelor.

Of course this creates some difficulty, because a lot of people would naturally assume that providing new opportunities for a hungry, thirsty energy deficient U.S. may on the surface appear to be an important way of ensuring that we are able to get other concessions from that country, particularly in areas that deal with natural resources, such as potatoes, agriculture and of course softwood lumber. We are at the same time perhaps risking the rise in energy costs to the extent that those energy costs may be prohibitive not to the Americans or to others within that continental arrangement, but more specifically to Canadians.

Today I would like to point out for members of parliament what I believe to be a rather interesting phenomenon that is occurring right across the country. People may be paying as much as 80 cents to 90 cents a litre for gasoline, yet crude is $10 less than it was six months ago. As I mentioned earlier, it was hovering at the $28 range. Six months ago it was near $36 or $38 and the price was averaging roughly 75 cents or 76 cents. What has changed is the market structure and the ability of those who process. Again, it is that big middle ground between the producer of the product and the consumer. Those who refine or transport or create this new product are able to take a lot more as a result of a lack of or a deficiency in competition.

There have been a number of excuses or reasons given. One which was been cited was short supply. Canada does not have a shortage of supply. Maybe there is the odd refinery that shuts down from the United States. However let me be very clear on the question of natural resources for all my colleagues here.

The excuse that is trotted out before winter is that it will be a cold winter therefore we will have low inventory. During the summer there are more people driving and therefore we have a low inventory. These are realities of our geography and climate in Canada. We have cold winters and warm summers.

However Canadians have experienced not only high prices for gasoline but for other energy products, more so than we have seen in many years. Of course that may be owing to the fact that we are already part of a continental arrangement where NAFTA has prevented us from keeping a supply. Perhaps that is not such a good thing. It certainly is not what I am advocating.

What I am concerned about is the ability to tack on an extra few cents. Today, when Canadians are reading about record profits being made by oil companies to the tune of almost $1 billion in the downstream alone in 12 short weeks, there is something seriously wrong with the transfer of wealth from the Canadian economy to the bottom lines of major oil companies.

I do not disagree for a moment that a continental policy which allows Canadian products to be refined and created here in Canada but produced and sold back to Canadians in U.S. prices is in itself a bad thing. Canadians and many members of parliament I am sure are not aware of the fact that it constitutes virtually 12 cents of a litre of gasoline.

I have some concerns about the object of a purposeful discussion on dealing with resources and making productive uses of them for all Canadians and for the international market. I do not think Canadians should volunteer themselves as international boy scouts and assume we should be looking in the other direction, saying that that is fine and that we can supply energy to other nations but that we are not looking after the interests of Canadians.

Today on April 24, 2001, it would appear to me that that is a very serious problem for Canadians. However I believe there also is a problem with the structure of the market. Those who control the product are in a position to also control and determine what the price is going to be.

If we control the infrastructure, if we control the pipelines, if we control the ability for the product to be refined, it is very conceivable that those who are producing, whether in the industries of agriculture or fishing or mining, will wind up with lower and lower prices.

This brings me to the issue of agriculture. It seems rather unfortunate that we simply are looking at the issue of agriculture from the perspective of depressed international crises. Most analysts are now looking at agriculture from a different perspective and that is to see that there are changes of concentration, dynamic, quick, evolving changes of concentration in the areas of processing and manufacturing to respond to the new realities of concentration at the retail sector in our economy, certainly as it relates to food.

For instance, although Wal-Mart does not have a large presence in terms of groceries in Canada, certainly the weight and the substantial size and power influenced by Loblaws, or Sobeys or by other smaller but nevertheless important regional players, such as Dominion and A&P, have an impact on artificially raising manufacturing costs and in turn take this out on farmers.

This is not just something that has been invented by this member of parliament at this time. Policy-makers and a lot of us do not want to enter into the more substantive and critical area of determining what the structural problems are with the industry.

If we are not prepared to accept that Canada has, perhaps more than other nations and certainly more than our trading partners, a much more concentrated market environment, we are inevitably going to find ourselves in a position where all the solutions we are looking for are really band-aids and very short term.

So I would plead with members of parliament that when we are dealing with the issue of natural resources, we look further than simply saying that these are industries that have to compete on the international market or that these are industries that have a similar product but the processes might be somewhat different. We must examine whether or not the markets in which those products are to be sold are already predetermined and precontrolled in which there is already a fixed or set price, which is harmful and detrimental to the competitive process but is also detrimental to the very people who are working day in and day out across Canada.

We are dealing with a dichotomy of people in rural areas, as I have heard from the minister, who are not making enough and who do not have jobs. We have heard about the mining sector and the agricultural sector. We heard about consumers who felt they were paying too much.

Let us start looking at what is in between and we can come to a much better understanding of the realities in the country. In the process hopefully debates like this will be more meaningful.

Resource IndustriesGovernment Orders

11:05 p.m.

Liberal

Rick Laliberte Liberal Churchill River, SK

Madam Chairman, I hope you do not mind, but I will start my presentation by sharing a map. This map transcends political boundaries. There is no language on it. Because of the satellite imagery technology that exists today, it is available to us. It is in printed form for us as parliamentarians. However not one of our committee rooms or other rooms has a map of Canada in it.

In order for us to make our place on the planet, and we always want to say we are not Americans, why do we not put a map of Canada somewhere in a northern location. We are a northern country. We are from the northern hemisphere. If we stand at home and look at the world, our home is to our back. I propose a map be hung in one of the committee rooms. We could dedicate a committee room with a map of the natural resources and natural waters of Canada as a gift to Canadians.

In some of these committee rooms it might spark an initiative. Maybe somebody in downtown Toronto would start to see that the islands in the north are a part of our decision making. We have Quebec, the St. Lawrence region, the Hudson Bay watershed, the Mackenzie River watershed and the whole west coast watershed in the Yukon.

It is an astounding lesson. As a young person I have always been interested in land and water. I was a surveyor and was working in the mines. I can always find something new on a map. It could be an oil company, a mining company or a forestry company but there are always new discoveries.

As decision makers we are lacking vision. We have not created an image of our own country, region and territories. This is a huge mistake. My riding is Churchill River but when I enter the House I assume a responsibility for all of Canada. This is what needs to be done here.

Terminology is also very important. I spoke with the minister responsible for rural development. I have always challenge words about the regions of Canada. The three regions which were mentioned in the throne speech were urban, rural and northern. The north is a unique region of its own. It is not rural. We are trying to be urbanized but we are really not urban either. The north is a unique opportunity, a unique lifestyle and a unique climate. It is everything in its own. The north has enough weight of its own.

We have a northern minister who is in charge of the territories north of sixty. We have huge regions in the northern half of the provinces where there is no federal ministry in charge. That is why I challenged the rural minister because he had his remote community added on to his portfolio.

It is time we co-ordinated ourselves with our provinces as well, from Labrador to Quebec to Ontario to Manitoba to Saskatchewan to Alberta to B.C. and to the Yukon, Northwest Territories and Nunavut. All these regions should not only have a resource development and community development vision, but also social and human development vision. It all comes hand in hand. We cannot do it separately. We cannot leave legacies like Uranium City in my riding which had a huge mining operation. It looks like Beirut today. The mining company pulled out.

The federal government was also responsible there because it started out as Eldorado, a federal crown corporation. However if anyone went there today they would see that it looked like Beirut. It is time to clean it up. We have to go back.

Speaking of going back, a comment was made by one of the members. There is a need for co-ordination in this country which does not really exist yet. There are little sparks of it. However in 1909 it existed. Let us go back in history. In 1909 there was a body called Canadian conservation council which existed for about 12 years. Then it fell apart because the bureaucracy of our nation's capital took exception to it. It was getting too structured and competing against other people's hierarchies. It is time for us to go back to it.

It exists in Bill C-5, the endangered species legislation. There exists in that bill the Canadian endangered species conservation council. It is made up of three ministries, fisheries, environment and national parks-heritage, and the provincial ministries that are in charge of wildlife.

We should expand that council to include members of the Senate and members of the aboriginal nations. Then we would embody everything in this country and encircle all of this: on reserve, off reserve, provincial, territorial, Senate and both houses. We could create a conservation council that would look at sustainable development, economic sustainability, the conservation of our economy, the social and human needs, the conservation of our population in our young children and their future, plus the ecology which is the most important part because it is the land. It is the land that gives us the source of life and the source of our riches.

When we enter the parliamentary restaurant there is a picture of a pyramid. At the top is the capital and credit of this country, all the money stacked on top. At the bottom, which holds it up, is the territorial lands of this country. Unless we rationalize and balance all of this it will be off balance.

I look at my region. We have forestry, mining and the hottest uranium mines in the world, in fact the most uranium in the world, but all our paycheques are flying over our heads. They are going to Prince Albert and Saskatoon. Our roads in our communities are the worst and the most dangerous.

Our community was a social experiment where they did not want to create Uranium City, a mining town. The policy was to fly in their workers from small villages in the north, train them and it worked. However it started to abandon those pick-up points and started going to the major centres. That is where it went wrong.

Those fleets of planes that sit empty today could fly our workers into the tar sands. The tar sands need human resources and labour. We are just next door. We get the ecological footprint of the tar sands. All our weather comes from the west and so does the pollution which comes from the tar sands. It affects us ecologically but not economically.

To try to grab those jobs in Fort McMurray, the town of La Loche with 4,000 Dene people used its human resources training money to build a road to the border. The Dene people's own training dollars built that road. Now it did not go through to the tar sands because Alberta did not fulfil its agreement to build that road.

As a nation it is time that we start to plan our resources and look at our real resources from the right perspective so that we can show our uniqueness if an American comes to our committee room and asks what it is. Americans are used to centring the world from Texas. That is the centre of their world.

I would like to leave a legacy. When we talk about resources, from here on in let us measure what we are talking about and use the right image. It is missing on the Hill.

Resource IndustriesGovernment Orders

11:15 p.m.

Bloc

Jocelyne Girard-Bujold Bloc Jonquière, QC

Madam Chairman, I am very pleased to be here tonight. Since the beginning of the debate, I have found the exchanges we have had very productive, because hon. members have told Canadians and Quebecers who are listening to us tonight that throughout Canada we all have the same problems and no one was telling them about this fact.

We have an opportunity to say so and this is a great opportunity to speak of our specificities, which may be very widespread throughout Canada, but which have some similarities.

I learned tonight that there were mining problems in British Columbia. I have learned that Newfoundland is facing other problems and that there are mines in Abitibi. We also have mines in my area. I have learned all that and I think it will help to open up the debate.

I hope a lot of people watched this first discussion and realized that they are not alone in this, that by sharing and talking about their problems, some solutions can be found. That is what I found out tonight and I want to thank the hon. member for Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik for making this exchange of views possible.

The region I represent is a huge resource area rich in aluminum. We are known as the cradle of aluminum. The first aluminum plant in Quebec was built in the riding of Jonquière. My father worked there and, at that time, 8,000 people worked at the Arvida plant. Nowadays, there are only 500 employees.

Members can see what a difference 50 years can make. Because of all the new technology, jobs were cut but the company remained competitive at the world level thanks to these new technologies.

Technological change costs us a lot of jobs in the areas that rely on resources. My region relies on hydro, pulp and paper, mining, forestry and lumber. Whatever resources Canada has, they can be found in my riding.

We have had regional seminars and all sorts of other things in the last few years, things that were developed by the Canadian government, the Quebec government and by the local population. We were allowed to say what we thought had to be done to help us take charge and to ensure that our resource region which had given a lot could receive something.

As I was saying before, there were seminars. From there we proposed structures to help identify ways to pull ourselves through. The provincial government has held out a hand to the resource regions and in our area we have pressed them. We can do that in our area. We pressed them and we said “Now that this has been identified, you will have to help us”.

In its last two budgets, the provincial government gave us money and an opportunity to pull ourselves through and to develop regional structures with this money.

A little earlier, the minister said that he was ready to make partnerships with the provinces. Even the member for Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik told us that we should renew some specific agreements made while the Conservatives were in office. In the days when he was a Conservative member, I was with the Bloc Quebecois. Things were working properly then.

However what is the government doing now? I am very sad to say this, but this government is developing programs that will definitely not meet the needs.

These are wall to wall programs, in parallel instead of converging with the structures put in place by the province. I do not know whether other provinces in Canada have provincial structures that identify regions of a specific nature; I would like to have heard someone say so.

In our region, we were told that the Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean region was going to be aluminum valley. That entitled us to very specific tax credits. Tax credits were also given for the next ten years for the processing plants that would be built in our region. The companies locating in our region would not have to pay income tax.

The region was also declared a secondary and tertiary lumber processing region, because of our forestry resources. One of my brothers worked as a logger in the days when the resource was accessible. Now the forests are being pushed further and further back. They are far not only from our cities, but also from our rural centres.

Based on that, we were told “You have taken control of your future, so here is some money”. I am therefore asking this evening, having heard all this, why this government would not dovetail its programs with those identified by the people in the regions?

I must state that the people of the regions are the ones who have identified their present and future development. They have looked back at where they started, and they are saying “This is where we are now”.

The provincial government has given us the means to do it. We know that for mine development, it gave us $264 million in support of forest resources development and mining operations in the last provincial budget. I do not know whether members knew, but this was what it put on the table.

Why would the Liberal government not do the same thing and give the same amount to make it possible to move ahead, as it was put earlier? Someone said “Soon there will be 13 mines closed at home, and there is nothing”. The member for Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavut said that. He has taken steps. I am not saying they are perfect, but I am saying they are taking steps.

We have reached the stage of taking steps. We have not yet reached the stage of always talking. We are at the stage of taking steps, because we have all reached the same place, knowing that action is essential. A number of Liberals and a number of Alliance members said “Action is vital”.

This evening we MPs have taken part in a debate and have concluded we must act. I am waiting to hear from the government. When will it act? When will it put on the table the means to enable resource regions to move ahead using the means they have identified.

These means include resources, money, and it involves honouring the niche they have defined for themselves. This is what I ask of the minister responsible for rural matters. He says he was prepared to form partnerships. I would like him to tell me something. If tomorrow morning the government of Quebec said “Yes, we agree with an alliance in this area”, would it be prepared to sign the agreement and say “Me too. I put my money on the table”?

So, I note that this is what has enabled us to develop the debate we have had tonight. I hope tomorrow we have another positive aspect and act.

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11:20 p.m.

Parry Sound—Muskoka Ontario

Liberal

Andy Mitchell LiberalSecretary of State (Rural Development) (Federal Economic Development Initiative for Northern Ontario)

Madam Chairman, I appreciate the intervention of the hon. member. I realize and respect her commitment to her riding and what she is trying to accomplish.

Let me try to describe the challenge or the problem. When it comes to rural citizens, whether those rural citizens live in Quebec or whether they live in Ontario or British Columbia, the issue is not one of who should take the predominant role, the provincial government or the federal government. That is not the issue.

Quite frankly I think she emphasized that too much. The issue is not between the provincial and federal governments. The issue is rural Canadians and rural communities. They will establish the priorities. They will find the way. They will recommend the structures.

The role for us as a federal government and for the provincial governments is not the issue between ourselves, but the issue is between how we relate to the communities.

When I say that I want to work with my counterpart in Quebec as I do with my counterparts in every province, it is not to work between each other. It is to work together with the communities. That is what the priority has to be. That is the priority of the government and that is my commitment as the Secretary of State for Rural Development.

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11:25 p.m.

Bloc

Jocelyne Girard-Bujold Bloc Jonquière, QC

Madam Chairman, what the secretary of state said about rural development is exactly what I said. We did that exercise back home. We did it regarding rural communities and regional development. We did that exercise. We said “This is what we want to develop”.

Why not sit with these people and tell them “You have defined this? We are prepared to help you”. This is what I am saying. I agree. However we will not do the exercise all over again. It was done in my region. It was done in done in all the regions of Quebec.

A number of very specific areas were defined. Very important resource regions were defined, including the Abitibi—Témiscamingue, the Magdalen Islands, the Gaspé Peninsula, the Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean and the North Shore. This was all included in the exercise conducted by the grassroots over the past four or five years.

Is the hon. member prepared to sit with these people, the grassroots, and hear them tell him “This is what we want and we want to have money, we want the same thing that the Quebec government is putting on the table”? This is what I am asking.

We have done it, and was along the lines that the parliamentary secretary mentioned since the beginning.

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11:25 p.m.

Bloc

Pierre Brien Bloc Témiscamingue, QC

Madam Chairman, I would like to make a comment to the secretary of state, and then to ask my colleague from Jonquière a question.

I agree with what he said. This is what the government does in its dealings with communities. In the case of the federal government in Quebec, there are two structures which affect regional development.

Of course, there are also ministers with a sectoral involvement, but the main tools are the Community Futures Development Corporations and Canada Economic Development.

Canada Economic Development Canada does not have the approach he mentioned, an approach based on co-operation, where the community takes the decisions. Canada Economic Development Canada produces a program thought of and made in Ottawa, Montreal or elsewhere for regional development. That is a problem.

There is a difference between the structure in place in Ontario and the one in Quebec. FedNor does not operate the same way as Canada Economic Development. The later is much more centralized.

Therefore, I hope that the member will pressure his colleague responsible for regional development in Quebec and tell him that this does not respond exactly to our needs at this time and that we need more flexibility and a model which goes in the direction you mentioned, a model which comes from the grassroots.

This is not exactly the way Canada Economic Development operates. In programming, any project of more than $100,000 has to be approved at a senior level. There are practical problems with that.

I think that the secretary of state is acting in good faith, I am even sure of it, but I hope that we will see some changes in this regard.

I have a short comment for the member for Jonquière, whom I congratulate on her speech. There is something I forgot to mention earlier, and I would like to know what she thinks about it.

Often, there are difficulties in the regions. For instance, the Department of Natural Resources or other departments, such as Agriculture Canada, are fairly large. Often we would like to have a few more researchers or those people described as public servants. We would like them to be a little more present in the regions, or for there to be more partnership, often with our teaching institutions. We would like these people to work in our communities. This would enhance co-operation between the community and the departments.

I do not know whether this feeling exists in her region. In my region, we would like more employees of these large departments to be based in the region, to live and breathe a little more of regional reality, rather than always having to wander all over the place to convince people of their efficiency.

We would like to have more public servants based in the region, while reporting to the administrative structures, but a little more in touch with what is going on in the community.

There are a few agreements, but we would like to see them extended. We find it a bit frustrating to be one of the major producers in the mining sector and not to have more people from the Department of Natural Resources assigned to our region, for example, or based in our region.

I am sure that the member for Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik will agree with me.

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11:30 p.m.

Bloc

Jocelyne Girard-Bujold Bloc Jonquière, QC

Madam Chairman, in my region, we have the exact same problem. We are under the responsibility of people in Quebec City or in Montreal. We do not have our own officials in our region.

I want to go back to Canada Economic Development. When I submit applications from my region to Canada Economic Development, I cannot have a say with regard to these applications. If I want to have a say with regard to an application given to me by one of my constituents, I am told that it will hurt the applicant. Decisions are made in Quebec City, Montreal or Ottawa. I find that extremely hard to take for people in my region and for those whom they elected.

CFDCs give repayable loans. They give grants to non-profit organizations, but not to businesses that want to develop new niches. They only give repayable loans. I think it is a very serious problem. These people often need substantial capital to develop an expertise and to start up a business that will enable us to progress. I find that deplorable.

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11:30 p.m.

Bloc

Ghislain Fournier Bloc Manicouagan, QC

Madam Chairman, since it is getting late, I have decided to speak about some interesting things.

I have, for instance, decided to speak of my riding. I will not give a geographical description, as my colleague has done, but I do issue a warm invitation to visit a region that is in the forefront of the mining sector. After Baie-Comeau, you would see Franquelin, Port-Cartier and Sept-Îles. The scenery is outstanding.

As the mining critic for the Bloc Quebecois, I have taken a lot of notes. I do not want to forget anything about my riding this evening. It is not very often that there is an opportunity to talk about the mines in my region. I would like the people in my riding to know that I have praised it, that I have spoken of them and that I have placed this sector in the limelight, a sector that is very beautiful, but is also in need of government intervention.

I am the spokesperson for a mining region. Its mining production ranks the North Shore as foremost in all mining regions in Quebec and in Canada. I am delighted to be able to say that.

Everyday we make use of a lot of products that are essential to our every day lives, construction materials, household appliances, cars, coins, televisions, computers. All these products are directly or indirectly connected to the mining sector in which we are involved and the top producer.

A significant amount of the metals used to produce these products come from the mineral deposits of the beautiful North Shore region of Quebec.

The mining output of the North Shore region is essentially focused around iron ore. I do not know if members have heard of ilmenite, but it is very important. This is a very rare ore that is found in Havre-Saint-Pierre and even in Natashquan, the land of Gilles Vigneault. This ore has been found through prospecting programs. Presently, those programs are funded only by the Quebec government. This is shameful.

Whereas some boast that Quebec has a national government, we have to look at the regional level for development. All the mineral deposits in Quebec have been prospected and found thanks to money from the Quebec government.

This is very important because in our region, on the North Shore, we do not have any arable land. The weather there is not suited to agriculture or ranching. Our land is fertile for industrialization. We are rich thanks to the sea, forests and mines. We do not complain, we are happy. We are very happy that way.

However the prospectors and the mining companies first determine what they are looking for. They do research and ask themselves what exactly they are looking for: precious metals, gold, silver.

I could tell hon. members that, very recently, a diamond, nickel, zinc and copper mine was found north of Schefferville. The ore concentration, in terms of percentage, is very promising. We also have asbestos and graphite. We support the discovery of these substances. The community is very aggressive in its help to prospectors, because the development of our region is involved.

There are many matters involved and the stakes are high. The development of Quebec and its regions is a long way from revealing a huge success. A lot remains to be done. In my riding alone, the Mazeret company, I am pleased to report, will operate a mine that will create some one hundred jobs.

The Fonds régional d'exploration minière de la Côte-Nord hopes to interest one of the mining companies in getting involved in a site we call La Blache. It is the Bloc Julie, commonly known as Block 30. It is located 145 kilometres north of Baie Comeau. People found a very large ore indicator there. They also reopened the pellet plant with this money, without government intervention, by the way. In the past five years, in Sept-Îles, $1.5 billion dollars has been invested, and they are investing nearly $70 million in a power plant to be called SM-2. For those who have heard of SM-3,it is about 150 kilometres north, and the SM-2 is on highway 20. A dam already exists there and it will be used to produce about 20 kilowatt/hours of electricity, which we want to increase to 60. To do so will involve an investment of $70 million.

At 7.30 p.m., the environmental public hearings office was holding hearings on this. I am delighted and I hope everything went well, since this development is vital to the region.

The mining industry is a major contributor to the Quebec economy. Not only are many areas directly dependent on this industry, but the large urban centres are also taking advantage of its important economic spinoffs.

I do not know if people know it, but ore shipments are worth about 3.5 billion dollars a year in economic spinoffs for Quebec alone, while the number of jobs created is estimated at 17,137 person years. This is really is something.

A good number of head offices are located in Montreal and in Quebec City, including the IOC Mining Company, Québec-Cartier Mining—the only mining company from Quebec—and QIT-Fer et Titane Inc., in Havre Saint-Pierre. These companies all employ many people.

The mining industry has also been badly affected in the last years. It has gone through very hard times. The years 2001 and 2002 will be very difficult for the mining industry. I think that my friend Guy Saint-Julien knows it very well.

In this respect, we need government support, particularly from the central government. The federal government thinks it can do everything and help everybody and it claims that we are so lucky to be part of that government, that we are very lucky because otherwise we would be in peril and lost.

People therefore really rely on the federal government to help those companies. We sometimes hear that bankers are happy to lend us money on sunny days. They are happy to lend an umbrella when the sun is out. It is because when they lend money, they give an umbrella, but as soon as it rains, they take it away. With respect to the mining industry on the North Shore, in my friend's area, we are having some rough weather. We are living through hard times. We need action and assistance from the government.

I was told that my colleague, the hon. member for Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik, made some promises during the election campaign. Some have talked about $300 million or $400 million, but I would be satisfied with $300 million, as long as I get $100 million for my region.

What the government needs to do is to provide a budget to help mining exploration and mining companies. Unfortunately, I do not have time to give the Bloc position and what it is proposing, because my time is up. However I will have the opportunity to bring forward a motion in the next few days to present the Bloc position, that is, what the Bloc Quebecois wants specifically.

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11:40 p.m.

Liberal

Guy St-Julien Liberal Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik, QC

Madam Chairman, I have a question for the member for Manicouagan, which is also a large riding. We are neighbours, since our ridings are adjoining. Together, we cover about, and Quebec is 1,600,000 square kilometres, 1,100,000 square kilometres. I have 800,000 square kilometres and he has some 300,000.

We did talk about the agency. What is important to us, as we said during the election campaign, is what we should have in the resource regions. We know that the mining sector is currently suffering and forestry is also beginning to suffer. A little over a week ago, I travelled to Shefferville with the Secretary of State responsible for the Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec, the hon. member for Outremont, and we discussed economic development. As members know, things are not easy in resource regions, given the price of metals and so on.

This is why we are trying to find ways to get specific, short term programs, not virtual programs on the Internet and so on, but programs for rural communities. I appreciate the fact that the minister spent the evening with us, because we truly value his excellent remarks.

The federal government must find new ways to co-operate with the Quebec government and with the governments of all the other provinces. We can take action. A few years ago, we had agreements that produced results. Now we do not have anything. We are proud of Montreal, Quebec City, Ottawa and Toronto, because they have major multimedia projects on the Internet.

We are proud. Jobs are being created and we are glad about that. Finally, we should never forget that, whether it is in Lac Saint-Jean, on the North Shore, in Manicouagan or the Gaspé area, jobs are being created. Whether it is in Abitibi or in Montreal, close to 7,000 jobs are created thanks to the mining and forestry industries. The same thing goes for Quebec City.

Money from the Initiative régionale de stratégie de l'Abitibi—Témiscamingue is currently used to help out COREM in Quebec City. We are proud of that, because it will create quality jobs and, in turn, help to support the mining industry.

The hon. member might want to comment on that. We need short term concrete measures to preserve these jobs.

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11:45 p.m.

Bloc

Ghislain Fournier Bloc Manicouagan, QC

Madam Chairman, to answer my colleague's question, tomorrow at 2.00 p.m., I will be in Schefferville to open a multipurpose sports centre. I am told that there is a swimming pool and an arena. The folks in Schefferville have hope. The mine has been closed and others have been discovered.

Diamonds have been discovered. Once diamonds have been discovered, a monopoly whose name I will not mention, but he knows who it is, bought it so as not to have any competition. The government of Quebec invested $4.5 million. That is why I am asking the federal government to match that amount.

I am an optimist by nature and I am confident, because there is great potential in northern Quebec, north of Schefferville. What the Bloc Quebecois is going to propose is a long term cut in the effective tax rate for mining companies, and I think that he will agree with that.

We will see what form it will take. In order to increase investment in the mining industry, it is essential that the tax rate be cut. According to my poll of both opposition and government members, people would be in favour of a tax cut right now for at least the next five years for investing in the mining industry.

People know that running a mine, especially with the cost of gas, the cost of energy and equipment, particularly in remote areas, is very expensive.

There must be a reduction in the effective tax rate for mining companies. The Bloc Quebecois is going to work very hard on this. With my colleague, we will be introducing a bill to this effect. I hope we will have the support of the member for Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik.

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11:45 p.m.

Liberal

Rick Laliberte Liberal Churchill River, SK

Madam Chairman, I had to look at the map to see where my hon. colleague was from. However his colleague beside him is from Yukon.

In the 1970s there was a project known as the mid-Canada development corridor. It connected Newfoundland and Labrador, through Saint Augustin, one of the areas in Quebec, and all through that area of Quebec, Ontario and Manitoba. The plan was shelved. It was a major undertaking in the 1970s.

Perhaps the provinces and the federal government could come to an agreement on a plan similar to that one. All the provinces would be engaged. They could look at the undeveloped area of the north. They could also look at the new sustainable practices we have today that were non-existent in the 1970s. If it was not feasible in the 1970s, perhaps it is feasible now.

The federal government should be engaged to work with all the provincial governments. They should be working together to develop the undeveloped area of the northern regions where the resources are vast. We have to do it in a timely fashion and it has to be done appropriately.

That is what I am hearing from the Bloc. It is an opportunity for us to engage in a common goal so that Canada could be proud that it had achieved something. Each province could be proud because it would take ownership of its regions.

The first step in this development is research and development units in the north. Their development will take timely and appropriate measures. Would the member care to comment on that?

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11:50 p.m.

Bloc

Ghislain Fournier Bloc Manicouagan, QC

Madam Chairman, let me reassure my colleague. At my age, and being born in Quebec, I do not need a map to go anywhere in Canada. I know all regions. I am just back from Vancouver, and I was in the west recently. I spent our 15 day recess in Victoria. I do not need a map to visit the hon. member's riding. I hope he does not need one to come and visit mine, because we should all know our country.

My country is Quebec, of course. I have always said that we have really two countries here, Canada and Quebec. Canada is our neighbour. When I was in Victoria, I said I was in Canada and people found that funny. I like Canada Vancouver and my neighbours. I also like my colleague's speeches.

He seems to worry. He is showing us a map as if we did not know Canada. We know it very well. We know where we are going, and we know from where we are come. Let me reassure him. We are working very hard on mining development in the west, in Canada and in Quebec. We should look for deposits where they are. Hon. members can understand that, since I have been elected by my constituents, I work first for my riding, but also for the people of Quebec and Canada.

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11:50 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Gurmant Grewal Canadian Alliance Surrey Central, BC

Madam Chairman, it is a pleasure to participate in this take note debate in committee of the whole on the state of Canada's resource industries.

Canada is the second largest country in the world in area and it is very rich in natural resources, which are an important source to a brighter future for our country. However, the government lacks vision and strategic planning in developing, exploring and utilizing these resources.

I notice that the government also lacks a balanced approach between resource development and environmental concerns. I will give a few examples to make my point, particularly in the mining industry.

I had an opportunity to visit a few mining industries. I have about 40 mining related industries that produce something for the mining industries in my constituency of Surrey Central. After talking with various individuals and businessmen in the mining industry, I learned that they consider it to be a tragedy the way the mining industry has been treated by the various governments, both federal and provincial. They are also upset with the regulations. They feel that the regulations are bureaucratic red tape in order to discourage them. Similarly, they say that the federal-provincial jurisdictions in some areas overlap and that in other areas they are not clear.

The mining industries spend a lot of time exploring and setting their infrastructure. They also use a lot of energy in terms of their management input and taxation becomes another factor that is driving them south. As an example, we have a $12 billion dollar investment in Chile which is three times more than our investment in Japan. We have invested $42 billion alone in the Americas outside of the U.S.

We are all aware of the softwood lumber crisis in the forestry industry. The people involved in that industry are very discouraged with the recent skirmish that has been going on. Free trade seems to be only one way but, when it comes to our natural resources, free trade has let Canadians down because of the poor planning, poor negotiating skills or mismanagement by the government.

I believe that anti-dumping and countervailing have not been handled right for many years. This new investigation by the U.S.A. in this area will probably worsen the relationship between the two countries on the trade front in forestry and especially in softwood lumber and in remanufacturing demanufactured products.

I visited a factory in my riding which utilizes waste products in the forest industry. That industry is also suffering because of poor negotiating that took place in the past. The federal government's policy on water exports is not clear. It does not seem to have a vision on how to handle the resource. It also has no clear policy regarding the production, export and pricing of electricity. We do not know where the government stands on such issues as air, flora and fauna, and endangered species.

I heard the speech of the secretary of state. I understand the challenges the government faces in terms of geography, density, remote areas and communities that depend on the mining industry and infrastructure development. We lack infrastructure development in Canada as far as natural resource rich rural communities are concerned. In addition, we know the market size is small. Regulatory and communication policies are stretched.

Natural resources contribute about 15% of our GDP. In 1996 the government mentioned in its throne speech the need for sustainable development of our natural resources.

As my time is up, can I have unanimous consent to increase my time by 15 minutes?

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11:55 p.m.

The Assistant Deputy Chairman

No, you cannot.

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11:55 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Gurmant Grewal Canadian Alliance Surrey Central, BC

I will wind up, then. I wanted to talk about how parliament was not consulted when we signed the treaties at the Kyoto, Beijing and Rio conferences. I will therefore say that the government needs to focus more on the state of natural resources in Canada and to come up with a clear vision on how to handle these things effectively in the future.

I did not touch on energy, electricity and nuclear power. Perhaps another time I can talk about that.

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11:55 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Madam Chairman, I had a 20 minute speech on the history of resource development in Yukon. I will get it in during another debate because you are very good at letting things in.

I thank the minister for being here until midnight. All rural members of parliament, as well as all rural Canadians, should support his initiatives and programs.

Before coming to the Chamber I was in the parliamentary restaurant to lobby members to support these initiatives. Rural members have a very good reason to support them. We are outnumbered. We are outnumbered in parliament and yet we inhabit the vast majority of the land. We must therefore stand and fight to show that we are different, that we have special needs in the north, that we are an important part of Canada and that we need those resources. That is why I commend the minister for the wonderful programs and hope all rural members will support him in his efforts and will fight for rural Canada.

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11:55 p.m.

Liberal

Andy Mitchell Liberal Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

Madam Chairman, in closing the debate I take the opportunity to thank all members for participating. We had a reasonable number of members here this evening who discussed topics of importance to rural Canada and rural Canadians. I thank all of them for their efforts and their energy. I look forward to working with them over the weeks, months and years ahead to achieve positive results for rural Canada.

I thank you, Madam Chairman, the table officers, the pages and everyone who has been here until midnight to make sure we could have this debate. The process of going into the committee of the whole has proven a very good exercise and I think it is something we should try at other times as well.

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11:55 p.m.

The Assistant Deputy Chairman

It being midnight, pursuant to the order made Monday, April 23, 2001, the committee will rise and I will leave the chair.

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11:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

The House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 2 p.m. pursuant to Standing Order 24 (1).

(The House adjourned at 12 a.m.)