House of Commons Hansard #67 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was offenders.

Topics

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

12:45 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Rob Anders Canadian Alliance Calgary West, AB

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I am wondering if there is quorum. I count 18 members.

And the count having been taken:

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12:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

We have quorum.

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12:45 p.m.

Liberal

Steve Mahoney Liberal Mississauga West, ON

Madam Speaker, the member opposite says that I am right in the middle. Yes, the extreme middle is generally where members will find us. We in this party believe in a balance that strives to deal with the root problem of youth violence. Is it a serious problem? There is no doubt about it. As I have pointed out, the one position on the right of the political spectrum is to deal with it with a supposedly firm hand with boot camps.

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12:45 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Rob Anders Canadian Alliance Calgary West, AB

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I do not see quorum.

And the count having been taken:

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

12:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

I see quorum. Hopefully quorum will remain.

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12:45 p.m.

Liberal

Steve Mahoney Liberal Mississauga West, ON

Madam Speaker, when the opposition benches empty the moment after the bells stop there will be difficulty in keeping quorum. I suppose the attempt is to throw off anyone speaking on this side of the House. However, it will not work because, fundamentally, we believe in the principles that are in the bill. If members want to talk about the difference between punishment, revenge, deterrence, rehabilitation and long term prevention, then that is what the bill would achieve.

I will tell members about something I saw this morning on Canada AM that interested me. A man by the name of Jim Gollert, who is the CEO of the Centre for Education and Training in Mississauga, has been appointed by the provincial government. I am hopeful that what I saw is a positive sign from the province of Ontario that it wants to deal with long term prevention. Where do criminals come from? Jim has been asked to deal with young people expelled from our educational system.

We all know, at least in the province of Ontario, that if young people are expelled from classes it is a very serious matter. If they are expelled for violent activities it means they are not only expelled from their board or school but from the entire education system in the province. I cannot think of a better breeding ground for young criminals than having young people kicked out of school and sent home or out onto the streets with no opportunity to continue their education.

I want to give credit where I hope credit will be due. The provincial government has announced not a boot camp, which some members opposite might prefer, but rather an opportunity for kids who are in trouble at school or who have been expelled on a permanent basis from the education system and sent home or out onto the streets.

The province of Ontario has asked Jim Gollert to head up a project that would look into ways these young people can continue their education and be rehabilitated before they wind up before a judge or in jail. I am hopeful this is a sign from our provincial government that it will do something about these kids who are the precursors of the young people who wind up being charged under whatever act is put in place.

There has never been so much misconception foisted upon people both in this place and across the land about the purpose of the Young Offenders Act and its replacement, this new act. The intention here is to take a young person who has been charged and who, under the Young Offenders Act, can be put into adult court prior to any conviction. Does that make any sense? We do not know. One would think that all of us in this place would live by the premise that one is innocent until proven guilty.

If a 14 or 15 year old is charged under the current act there are mechanisms in place that would allow the young person to be tried in adult court. At that time the offender's name would be published and it would be open to the discretion of the judge to impose an adult sentence. Under the new act that would only occur if a conviction is registered in a youth court system. That seems makes a lot of sense to me. If young persons are acquitted or they turn out to be not guilty, why would we want to put them into the stressful situation of having their lives tarnished perhaps forever because of a charge that was not proven to be true? We would not want that.

Under the new bill there would be the ability for the court system to deal with it in a youth system. It then would have the ability to impose an adult sentence upon conviction. That seems very reasonable. I do not hear anyone on the other side telling people about that or speaking about it in committee or in this place.

One of the goals must be to rehabilitate. I hear members from the Bloc chirping and heckling and I would say that is the other extreme. The other extreme is people who are only concerned, frankly, about provincial jurisdiction. They do not want any kind of federal jurisdictional interference in the justice system.

I do not understand why the Bloc would object to this bill. If Quebec accepts the new five year youth justice funding agreement that has been offered, the federal government will contribute more than $191 million over the period 2000-01 to 2004-05 to support youth justice services in the province. The increase in the base funding component of that agreement alone would represent an increase of 39% when compared to the level of federal support available to Quebec in the 1998-99 agreement. Quebec has the opportunity to receive stable funding from the federal government to support the youth justice system in the province of Quebec.

What is driving the Bloc members? Is it the overriding dogma they have about not buying into anything with any kind of federal direction, federal mandate or, what it would call, federal interference?

Members might find this hard to believe coming from me, but I think we should look at the benefit of the youth as opposed to the partisan interests being espoused opposite. It will not help young people if the bill is opposed because of partisan purposes on behalf of people from Quebec or western Canada.

I will tell a story about something that happened in Nova Scotia. I had an opportunity to work as the advocate for youth entrepreneurship. We had hearings. In those hearings young people appeared before us. One of them was a young woman. When we asked her how she had found out about the opportunity for youth entrepreneurism, she said that her parole officer had told her about it. It almost knocked us over.

The province of Nova Scotia has implemented a program called second chance. Is that not exactly what we should be trying to do: to provide a second chance when we see young people who have the opportunity to grow? It helped that young lady start her own business. She has a young child and she has turned her life around.

That is what the bill is about. That is what the government believes in. We will be tough where we need to be, but we must be fair; we must be balanced; we must focus on rehabilitating young people to build a better country.

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12:55 p.m.

Bloc

Odina Desrochers Bloc Lotbinière—L'Érable, QC

Mr. Speaker, I have just heard the most partisan speech that I have ever heard since the beginning of this debate. It is a partisan and biased speech made by an Ontario MP who knows absolutely nothing about Quebec.

For that matter, everything he says in the House of Commons shows that this member knows nothing about Quebec, that he knows nothing about the act and that he is only trying to misinform the House.

When the only example he can find is a situation that occurred in Nova Scotia, referring to parole, that makes us wonder what he is taking about.

We in the Bloc Quebecois know what we are taking about. We know that Bill C-7 is unjust to Quebec's young offenders, and we do not want to have imposed on us the vision of the west, which, unfortunately, is also endorsed by Ontario MPs.

The member must know that it is different in Quebec. As the present parliament progresses, we are realizing more and more how different we are from them, and that they do not understand us.

I would like to know if the member would accept, once and for all, to go to Quebec to find out what is going on there, find out what Bill C-7 is about and what its consequences are, and to understand, once and for all, that we are different from them and that we want to be on our own.

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

Steve Mahoney Liberal Mississauga West, ON

Madam Speaker, I am sorry to hear the personal attacks. I thought I was being fairly non-partisan in my debate compared to my normal approach to things. I was trying to notch it down a bit so that we could deal with some of the substantive issues.

The member hit it on the head. He said he wants us to admit that they want to stand alone. We know that is what drives them every working day, but that is not what the bill is about. The bill is about young people. Whether they are in the province of Quebec, Manitoba or British Columbia does not matter.

The effect of the youth justice system should have nothing whatsoever to do with the partisan desire of that party to separate from the rest of the country. Its members stand and say they are different from us and that we must come to Quebec because we do not know anything about Quebec.

I will tell them what I do know about. I know about young people. I know about Canada. I know that our young people from sea to sea to sea need a fair and balanced youth justice system. That is exactly what the bill will provide, and it will do so in la belle province.

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12:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

Not to repeat myself, members asking questions and those giving answers are entitled to the same respect.

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12:55 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Betty Hinton Canadian Alliance Kamloops, Thompson And Highland Valleys, BC

Madam Speaker, my hon. colleague from Mississauga West made a few comments in his original speech to which I take great exception. He said that the philosophy of the Canadian Alliance was “three strikes and you're out”. He also made reference to things such as boot camp.

He could not be further from the truth. There is no such thing as “three strikes and you're out” in our party. We want to see young people have the best opportunity possible. It is not negative when we bring to the discussion comments about notifying school boards and schools that they have a violent offender in their system. It is positive. By doing so we are protecting the most important resource Canada has, our youth, and we are also protecting the young offender. If we know what triggers the behaviour in a person then we can take the necessary steps to prevent it from happening again.

I spent my twenties and thirties as a school trustee. I have a very clear understanding of what happens in schools and of the need for education. In the latter part of my years I was the mayor of a community and helped to set up a camp for young offenders. Education was the most important component of that camp.

I and my party understand the need for education. We understand that if we can educate children and stop them from doing what they are doing before they get a criminal record for the rest of their lives, then we have made a contribution.

Where does the member get the idea that my party stands for three strikes and the offender is out? That is not true. I would be very interested in hearing how the member feels about that.

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Liberal

Steve Mahoney Liberal Mississauga West, ON

Madam Speaker, the answer is fairly simple. It was in that party's election platform in the past.

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1 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Ken Epp Canadian Alliance Elk Island, AB

It was not. Liar.

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1 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Darrel Stinson Canadian Alliance Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

You lie.

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1 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

James Moore Canadian Alliance Port Moody—Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC

Stop lying.

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1 p.m.

Liberal

Steve Mahoney Liberal Mississauga West, ON

I have heard members opposite speak about it in this place. They can try to deny anything they want.

Maybe the member brings a softer, gentler approach to this whole issue than some of the former members who have been here a little longer. That would be delightful to see. However, no matter how the Alliance tries to soften or change its image, Canadians know what it stands for. Canadians have heard it in this place and they have read it in the Alliance election materials.

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Darrel Stinson Canadian Alliance Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Now I know for sure that you cannot read.

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1 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Ken Epp Canadian Alliance Elk Island, AB

Why do you not speak the truth?

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

I know this debate is a very emotional one. Three times I have stated, and I am sure all colleagues agree, that we must show the same respect for both the colleague who asks the question and the colleague who answers the question.

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1 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Myron Thompson Canadian Alliance Wild Rose, AB

Madam Speaker, it must be fate that I would be following the speaker from Mississauga West. It was not my plan because he usually follows me but today I will get to have the last word. I will also be sharing my time with the member for Kelowna.

I want to take a moment to congratulate the member for Surrey North who has put in unlimited hours regarding the problems we have with youth crime in Canada. Being a victim himself, having lost his son to young offenders many years ago, his work in an organization called Crime, Responsibility & Youth, known as CRY, and his work with other victims' groups over the years indicate to me that there is a real dedication on the part of this man to bring very positive changes to the whole idea of youth crime.

Given all his efforts and the clear message that he has brought to the House from various victims' groups throughout the land to do something about youth crime, today unfortunately we have to report to Canadians that the government has failed dismally to deal with the situation of youth crime, and it ought to be ashamed of itself.

In 1984 the Young Offenders Act came into existence. In 1994 the 10 year review began. The results of that review, which I carry in my briefcase, indicate quite loudly and quite clearly that under the Liberal government's law regarding young offenders, violent youth crime has increased from 300% to nearly 400% over that period of time. Some success. I congratulate the government. This report came out of the government's own 1994 review.

When our party came here in 1993, we were assured by the present health minister, who was then the justice minister, that there would be a big review and a big resolution to the youth crime problem that we were facing and that he would require input from all the parties in the House.

I happened to be the head of the Reform Party justice committee at that time. I met with many of my colleagues and we diligently put together our proposals, which we felt would deal with the situation. They were mainly based on policies that were decided by grassroots people across the country who helped us develop them. We submitted our proposals. I looked at hundreds of submissions from organizations across the country who were calling for some serious and significant changes to the Young Offenders Act in 1994. After nearly a year and a half, the minister at that time brought forward a proposal that was totally insignificant with regard to what the people across the country were asking for.

We have continued to carry on. I believe this is at least the 15th time that I have spoken on the Young Offenders Act since I came here in 1993. This effort, called the youth justice bill, is just as my friend from Surrey North called it this morning, a very feeble and weak attempt to resolve the problems that victims across the land are facing day in and day out because of youth crime.

It is totally in the hands of the government across the way to start listening to Canadians and to start taking their views seriously with the intention of bringing about a safer society for our young people in particular who are the majority of the victims. However, the government refused to do it and it has failed once again.

Government members will proudly vote tonight, accept what has been delivered and it will be unacceptable across the land. I can assure members opposite that one year from now we will be standing here questioning the government on why it is not doing something about the youth crime across the land. That is an assurance that members can almost count on.

I heard comments this afternoon about boot camps and that it was a shame that anybody would even suggest a boot camp. I have news for the Liberals: probably millions of people in Canada have gone through boot camps called the military and it did not hurt them one bit. In fact most of them are quite proud that they went through a very disciplined training program that delivered them to a position where they could serve their country.

I do not know of one Liberal who has the guts to visit the boot camps and work camps across the country. They should come out to Alberta to see how our work camp is doing. The camp is having great success because the young people are learning some responsibility. They are learning how to work. They are getting an education. They are learning physical fitness. They are learning how to treat other people. They are learning about life. They are not in a prison, they are in a work camp. Is that not scary? It must frighten that Mississauga West character right out of his boots that we would do such a thing to youth.

As far as what goes on in the schools, having been in the school system for 30 years and in administration for 15 of those years, I can assure the House that I would have loved to have known the backgrounds of the different students who were being transferred to my school. Not only could we have provided a service to them but we could have provided better protection for some of the youth who suffered at their hands because of our lack of knowledge.

Let us talk about victims. The last thing the Liberals ever talk about are the victims. What is happening in our society? The stories we hear from students when we visit schools are crazy. I believe all my colleagues in the House have visited a school and have heard the students say that the government should get tough with violent young offenders. Many students live in fear. When I visit schools the majority of students tell me that they are fearful of the situation they find themselves in today.

I really question the Bloc members. They say that Quebecers like the law the way it is. All the e-mails, letters and contacts I have had with people from Quebec over my years of work on justice issues have said quite the contrary. The grassroots and down to earth people do not like the Young Offenders Act. I would ask Quebecers to write to me and let me know if they are happy with the act. I would like to know because I do not believe it is true. Whenever I go to meetings or make any kind of speeches at town halls involving tax problems or other issues, at the top of the agenda is the subject of young offenders. They want to know what we are going to do about youth crime.

I would encourage the government to pay attention to grassroots people, but I know that is difficult for it to do. I have received a number of notes and have had a number of conversations with backbenchers on that side of the House who keep encouraging me to fight against the bill and to keep doing what I am doing because they do not like it either. Unfortunately, their hands are tied and they cannot do anything about it. It is a shame that when members sit in the government backbenches, they are not allowed to have a strong voice in what the frontbench brings forward.

That needs to change. The members' idea on the frontbench is to bring the bill forward and then put closure on the debate. They claim to know best and that their little boys and girls behind them will vote the way they are told whether they like it or not. Year after year we hear the same old story. Members do not like what they have but they have no choice because they are ordered to vote a certain way.

These problems will never go away if we take the approach that everything we do must benefit the criminal. If we do not start focusing on the victims and what their safety means to them instead of the rights of the criminal, we will never get anywhere. No one believes in prevention more than I do. Our communities are offering good measures of prevention and I support and congratulate them for doing so. However the government has failed to do so for seven years. The reforms are no different than what we had in 1994.

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1:10 p.m.

Liberal

Dennis Mills Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

Madam Speaker, I have witnessed the member's passion and his constructive criticism in the House on justice issues for a number of years. I like many of his ideas, especially the idea of having camps or discipline centres. I do not like the word boot camp but I like the notion of having rehabilitation centres where people could be taught skills, where they could be given a sense of discipline, a sense of athleticism and all the things that would make them a whole person.

The member has given 30 years of his life to young people through the educational system. He talked about the notion of working on prevention. The area of prevention is an area that does not get enough discussion time in the House. Could the member tell us from his experience where he has seen the best results of preventative measures young people?

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1:10 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Myron Thompson Canadian Alliance Wild Rose, AB

Madam Speaker, I could speak about a number of occasions but I must say to the member that it was very difficult after the Young Offenders Act came into force. I was a principal before it came in. We were notified of their life situations when they arrived at the school. After 1984 we were not allowed to have that knowledge, which made it a great deal more difficult. We were notified of their life situations when they arrived at the school. After 1984 we were not allowed to have that knowledge, which made it a great deal more difficult.

We were able to implement some programs. The one to which I like to refer the most is about little Eddy who was in grade one. We brought in a program in our school for students at risk. The grade one teacher brought Eddy to my office one day and told me there might be a problem. He had pulled a knife on the teacher and had been kicking the teacher in the shins.

I think the member would agree that there was a serious problem. We identified it early and worked with the young person over the years. We did not throw him out of school. Expelling kids was the very last resort although we sometimes had to do so for the safety of others. We worked hard with Eddy. We brought in his family and managed to get volunteers in the community to provide big uncle programs. It was something we had free rein to do. Regulations did not disallow it. We were able to bring in people who had the ability to work with a young person like him. As we went through the year he began to excel a little. He left our community when he was in grade six.

I ran into Eddy in 1995. He was in prison, but he was a guard. He remembered me from grade six as being his principal. He ran up to me to tell me how much he appreciated what we did for him in those earlier years. He said he would have been on the other side of the bars had it not happened.

I remind the member that unfortunately, as time progressed, as the charter of rights came in, as human rights factored in and as the Young Offenders Act came in, we were less and less able to put hands on programs in place to work with these students because somebody had the right to deny it. We were not allowed the freedom we once had to work seriously in preventing these things from happening.

Why did it get away from us? Police and school administrators used to work very closely, hand in hand, because usually my problems during the day were their problems at night. There were very successful school resource programs. We are starting to get back to that a little today. Community involvement is starting. All of that is great.

I could go on for hours about the experiences we have had, some positive and some not so positive. The difference is that we were capable of doing something because our hands were not tied by some right, charter or Young Offenders Act. That really destroyed our efforts rather than help them.

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1:15 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Werner Schmidt Canadian Alliance Kelowna, BC

Madam Speaker, it is an honour for me to participate in this debate. The first Young Offenders Act was brought forward in 1993, but it was my privilege and honour in 1993 to present a petition to the House signed by 6,000 young people. The petition came to me as the result of a visit by two young girls who were attending Mount Boucherie Secondary School. They came to me to ask if there was anything I could do about a problem they had in their school.

They were fearful because they were being harassed and challenged. They were afraid they would be attacked by a group of other girls. The problem was that the legislation did not work. Their teachers and principal could not protect them because the problem was happening in the community outside the school.

They asked what they could do. I told them one of the best things would be to get their friends and other young people to tell me about the problem. Some 6,000 young people could not come to see me, so I suggested they present a petition and that is what they did.

In 1994 the government presented a bill to the House which was completely unacceptable. My hon. colleague opposite on the Liberal benches asked what we could do to prevent it. One thing would be to have effective legislation. However there is more than that. We need to change attitudes. We need to change the attitudes of our parents, our legislators and our kids. We need to develop a set of values that will encourage people to respect one another and not accept violent behaviour.

I have a couple of values I will state. There are some virtues we need to have. The virtue of courage is an example. The virtue of character is another. We must live our lives according to what we know is right and wrong, where our word is our bond, where we keep our promises, and where truth is the watchword.

I take exception when hon. members opposite or even colleagues exaggerate or tell something that is close to not being true. Members sometimes deliberately state something that is false. We have a word to describe that. It is a three letter word and I cannot use it here. The important thing is that it happens and it should not.

If we all told the truth, wherever we were, our relationships would be different. If integrity became the watchword in our relationships with one another it would be a good idea.

I will respond directly to my Liberal colleague opposite. The greatest preventive measure, and it ties directly into what my colleague said a moment ago, is that we engender in our young people and in ourselves the recognition that we not only have rights under the charter of rights and freedoms but also concomitant responsibilities. The actions we undertake must have consequences and those consequences must be meaningful. They must entail more than a simple tap on the wrist for violent offenders or some silly little punishment that means nothing. We need to get serious.

Some people, like the hon. member for Mississauga West, will say I want to throw everyone in prison. That is not what I said at all. That is an example of telling something that is not the truth. The truth is that when there is a serious offence there must be serious consequences.

Do those consequences mean we stick people in jail? Not necessarily. Do they mean we teach people better ways of handling conflict? Yes, of course. Do they mean offenders should face their victims and recognize the pain they have caused those individuals and their families? Do they mean they should recognize that it is not only the victim who is the object of a violent attack but the victim's family and indeed the whole community?

Were the two young high school girls who came to see me concerned only about their own welfare? No, they were there to represent a whole other group of girls whom I met later. Then boys came along and said they were in the same situation. They were all victims of the threat that was out there. Let us recognize that we are responsible for our own actions. The hon. member for Mississauga West is also responsible for what he says in the House.

I will go one step further. What have we done in the act? I will refer to only one clause because it is central to the whole business we are talking about here. Paragraph 146(2)(b) of Bill C-7 states:

the person to whom the statement was made has, before the statement was made, clearly explained to the young person, in language appropriate to her age and understanding, that

(i) the young person is under no obligation to make a statement

What does this refer to? It refers to a police officer or a person trying to preserve the peace who has the responsibility to make a charge if someone has broken the law. The young person being charged does not have to make a statement.

Why is that significant? I will not use more arguments here. I will use observations made by the former attorney general of British Columbia. His name was Alex MacDonald. Lest anyone on that side of the House thinks he was a Liberal or a Conservative, he was neither of those. He was not a Canadian Alliance member either. He is retired now, but he was a member of the NDP. He later became a member of the legislative assembly and then the attorney general. Here is what he said:

In 1984, Canada's parliamentarians, perhaps inebriated by their exuberance for rights, replaced the Juvenile Delinquents Act of 1908 with the Young Offenders Act. It was as if they'd heard the word from on high: “Come to the charter waters! Drink and your souls shall live!”

I am quoting Alex MacDonald. He went on further:

The centrepiece of the Young Offenders Act is its Section 556, as it was renumbered in 1998.

It was renumbered to 145 in 1999, renumbered again in 2001 as 146, and I just read it.

The young person is under no obligation to give a statement to the police officer. Mr. MacDonald asked what kind of signal that gave to teens. It expresses one of the shibboleths of our law, one which the criminal defence bar is apparently prepared to defend to the death. Never mind that it contradicts the wisdom of the ages when it comes to raising youngsters to become responsible adults. Why? Because it allows teens two ways to escape responsibility for their mistakes.

First, as passed by parliament, the bill would allow young offenders to refuse to answer a police officer's questions about wrongdoing in which they may have been involved, even if the police officer saw them do it.

There is a case in Kamloops where a youngster was seen damaging some property. A police officer happened to be right there and asked the kid if he did it. The young kid looked at him and said he did not have to talk to him, so he did not. The law says he does not have to do so. That is the first escape.

Second, the bill would place no onus on young offenders to explain to a court what they have been up to even after a fair, though not conclusive, case has been presented against them.

Many of us as parents know only too well that when our children behave in a manner that is not appropriate they will often behave in a peculiar way. We will know that something is not quite up to snuff and that there is something bothering them. Usually, although not necessarily, they will have done something wrong.

The simplest question is to ask what is the matter. If they do not tell us it often begins to gnaw inside and turn them inside out. If they have done something really bad we could perhaps handle it. However when they keep burying it there is a problem. There comes a time when confession is good not only for the soul but for society. It needs to be done.

I wanted to talk about ways to rehabilitate young offenders but we do not have time. I am sorry about that. I would have liked to draw the attention of members to ways of amending the act so that it would resolve the issue better than is the case now.

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1:25 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Darrel Stinson Canadian Alliance Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Madam Speaker, I listened to my colleague speaking about the Young Offenders Act and I cannot agree more.

The member probably has run into situations as many times as I have in going around to schools and talking to young people. The young people I have spoken to have pushed me to try to have something addressed in the Young Offenders Act. They have spoken time and again about the fear they have of their own peers in many cases. They absolutely point to the Young Offenders Act as one of the causes of their fear because they know young offenders will have no penalty handed to them by the courts. That is one thing I want to ask the member about.

I want to step out of the Youth Offenders Act for a moment. There are those of us who like to point our fingers at the Young Offenders Act, and I am one. As far as I am concerned the Young Offenders Act is a disgrace to our young people and to the judicial system.

One of the big problems with our young offenders has been the direct result of not only this government but the governments before it. I point this out because today parents are no longer able to stay at home to tend to their children. Parents have been forced out into the workplace over the heavy taxation and heavy costs of living in Canada. Therefore, I would like to point the finger that way too, if I could, and maybe ask the hon. member to comment on that.

Maybe another way for us to look at this is to hold the government accountable for forcing both parents out of the home leaving no parent to look after the children when they come home from school. The children are now learning all kinds of things at the parks, everything that goes on in the Young Offenders Act.

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1:30 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Werner Schmidt Canadian Alliance Kelowna, BC

Madam Speaker, I am glad the hon. member mentioned that because it is certainly a part of this preventive thing. It is also a part of our responsibility as parents. He mentioned, in particular, the phenomenon of the latch-key kids who come home and there is no one there.

My wife and I have two boys. One day when they were in junior high they were exposed to some things they were not sure about. In fact, it had something to do with drugs. They came running into the house and, the younger fellow especially, wanted to talk to their mom, but she was not there. They both needed to find her because they had an important question to ask. They ran to the back of the house and found her working on her flower beds. She loves gardening. They ran up to her and told her what they had been offered in the school washroom. They then asked her what they should do. She was able to deal with them. I will never forget that because she was there when they needed her.

I know many of my friends' children come home to an empty house. A note is left on the fridge telling them that there are sandwiches and that they should help themselves, or a note is left telling them which button to push on the microwave if they want hot chocolate. It is a different phenomenon. Does that mean it is bad for both parents to work? No. It just means that kids should not be home without some kind of adult influence in their life. Someone should be there to help them.

I agree with the hon. member. Not only do parents have a responsibility for their children but the teachers and the community also have a responsibility for these children. How many of us simply ignore and walk away from the problems our neighbour's kids may have believing it is not our problem? When I was child and I did something bad, I can remember a neighbour putting his hand on my shoulder and saying “Werner, do you know what is happening over here? Is this what your dad would want you to do”, and I would behave myself. It made a difference.

I believe we all have a responsibility. It is part of the prevention and it is part of the cure.

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

1:30 p.m.

Liberal

Carole-Marie Allard Liberal Laval East, QC

Madam Speaker, I would be glad to share my time with anyone who wishes to speak to this bill.

There is one thing that strikes me in today's debate. Why is it that members on the other side are not pointing out to Quebecers that this bill serves, in fact, two purposes—