House of Commons Hansard #75 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was fcc.

Topics

Farm Credit Corporation ActGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Farm Credit Corporation ActGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Farm Credit Corporation ActGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

All those opposed will please say nay.

Farm Credit Corporation ActGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Farm Credit Corporation ActGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And more than five members having risen:

Farm Credit Corporation ActGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

Pursuant to Standing Order 45 the division stands deferred until Monday, June 11 at the ordinary hour of daily adjournment.

The House proceeded to the consideration of Bill C-24, an act to amend the Criminal Code (organized crime and law enforcement) and to make consequential amendments to other acts, as reported (with amendment) from the committee.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

There are six motions in amendment standing on the notice paper for the report stage of Bill C-24, an act to amend the criminal code (organized crime and law enforcement) and to make consequential amendments to other acts.

Motions Nos. 1 and 2 will be grouped for debate and voted on as follows: a vote on Motion No. 1 will apply to Motion No. 2.

Motions Nos. 3 to 6 will be grouped for debate and voted on as follows: a vote on Motion No. 3 applies to Motions Nos. 4 and 6; an affirmative vote on Motion No. 3 obliterates the necessity of the question being put on Motion No. 5; a negative vote on Motion No. 3 necessitates the question being put on Motion No. 5.

I will now put Motions Nos. 1 and 2 to the House.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

12:25 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Peter MacKay Progressive Conservative Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS

moved:

Motion No. 1

That Bill C-24, in Clause 2, be amended by adding after line 16 on page 4 the following:

““competent judicial authority” means a Judge of any Court in Canada.”

Motion No. 2

That Bill C-24, in Clause 2, be amended by replacing line 34 on page 4 with the following:

“25.2 to 25.4, only after acquiring authorization from a competent judicial authority.”

Madam Speaker, I will begin my remarks by saying that the PC Party views this as a very positive bill. As members know, it is legislation that comes about as a result of the Supreme Court of Canada decision, Regina v Campbell and Shirose. Bill C-24 is meant to remedy an anomaly that resulted from that decision. It left law enforcement officers throughout Canada in the unenviable position of confusion about their ability to, on occasion, act outside the bounds of the criminal code in an effort to infiltrate or to apprehend those engaged in unlawful activity.

Specifically, the legislation is aimed at organized crime, hence the title of the bill itself. It focuses on the neverending efforts of our brave men and women in law enforcement who are faced with the tremendous task of trying to curtail organized crime in Canada. This problem has been exaggerated and exacerbated over the past number of years to the point where many people in communities throughout Canada, but particularly in the province of Quebec, are feeling threatened in their communities and very ill at ease in their homes and in their towns.

The legislation is meant to address the fallout from the Campbell and Shirose decision. It is meant to provide police a level of immunity from prosecution for acting in their capacity as law enforcement officers, but allowing them to, on occasion, transgress the law. There are certain limitations that have been placed upon that, such as serious crimes involving sexual assault, bodily harm and murder. These are obviously the types of offences that would be completely out of bounds when it comes to police officers acting in the line of duty.

There are certainly exceptional cases. The case can be made where police officers must demonstrate to potential gang activity and those engaged in unlawful gang activity that they are part of that gang. They must demonstrate that they are prepared, given certain circumstances, to break the law in order to ingratiate themselves or get into the club so they might infiltrate and gain information by attaining the trust of those who are involved in this nefarious activity in the hope of bringing them to justice. The police, by doing this, hope to collect evidence that will eventually lead to prosecution.

The bill in its current form grants police officers this special designation that allows them to transgress the law. That discretion or authority is now vested in the police, albeit through superior officers, and in some instances attorneys general. In some instances there is reference to the solicitor general being the top minister in the department.

That is fine and dandy. However, in terms of direct accountability, knowledge and discretion over who should be immune from prosecution and who should receive this special designation, it is my submission and earnest suggestion that the competent authority be a judicial authority. Simply put, it should be a judge. Judges understand the law and could make learned and competent decisions as to who should be granted these very special powers.

I have worked in the justice system and have a great deal of respect and admiration for our police. However we all know that there have been instances, sadly, where police officers have gone outside their duties and have in some instances undermined public confidence.

I strenuously suggest that for the new system and the new law to take effect, win public confidence and operate in a smooth and satisfactory way, judges should be granted the discretion to make decisions as to who is granted immunity. That would be a much more practical and professional way to go about it and would be very much in keeping with current practice as it pertains to wiretaps and to warrants for search and seizure.

Once the designation is made there would be a greater level of accountability and review. As contemplated in the legislation, the designation would be for an indeterminate period. However, that is not to say that no supervision or checks and balances would be in place or that reports would not be made to those in authority.

I again strongly suggest that it would make greater sense and be more consistent with our current legal practices to have the judiciary make the designations. Judges in Canada practise criminal law daily and are aware of recent developments in the law and of the practices that take place in courtrooms across the land. They should have the power vested in them. That is the direction in which we should be going with the legislation. That is the sole purpose behind the amendment.

There have been quite animated discussions along this line at committee level. I would go so far as to say it was one of the most productive committee hearings I have had the pleasure to take part in during my short tenure here in Ottawa. There was a full and open exchange of ideas. Members of parliament were fully engaged in the debate as to where this very special, extraordinary power should rest.

The special designation granting this form of immunity would not apply only to organized crime. That may come as a surprise to many, given the title of the bill and the intent of the legislation as it was presented and sold to the general public.

The designated special power would apply to police officers deemed immune from prosecution in their efforts to infiltrate organized crime. It would apply to their general practice of law enforcement; that is to say, they would be given powers that used to exist under common law. There was, after the fact obviously, a judicial examination of those acts and those actions on the part of police.

Once the designation is made, subject to the amendment being accepted by a judge for a police officer or superior officer, or a provincial attorney general in the case of municipal or provincial police forces, it would not be for the sole purpose of dealing with organized crime. That must fully be understood by the Canadian public. Police officers would return, subject to the legislation passing, to having discretion in the field to act in emergency situations.

That is what the legislation is intended to do. It is intended to correct the fallout and the upshot from the supreme court decision which threw into disarray the understanding of police officers as to what they could do in a given circumstance.

It goes without saying that police often find themselves in dangerous situations where they must make split second decisions as to their actions. They must apply force but within reason. They must on occasion enter premises. The practice has always been to use reason and a certain discretion as to how much force they should apply and how much of a transgression of the law they should embark upon.

However, given the size, scope and breadth of Canada and the many rural communities that exist, it is virtually impossible for police officers on every occasion and in every instance to receive prior judicial authorization when contemplating whether to enter a premise or take a vehicle or other property that may not belong to them.

All of this is aimed at allowing police officers to carry out their very important role of protecting the public. The amendment is aimed at putting a balance in place so that checks will exist to allow judges the opportunity to intervene and make a proper designation and thereby allow police to act appropriately.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

Erie—Lincoln Ontario

Liberal

John Maloney LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada

Madam Speaker, I rise to speak to Bill C-24, an act to amend the criminal code in relation to organized crime and law enforcement and to make consequential amendments to other acts.

The standing committee has completed its consideration of the bill. I am pleased to say that the committee endorsed the bill with only a few amendments. Bill C-24 has been reported back to the House of Commons with those amendments.

I want to first thank my colleagues on the committee for their work with respect to the bill. In particular, I would point out that there were members on the standing committee who had participated in the subcommittee on organized crime during the last parliament. It was their report and the recommendations contained therein that are reflected in the government's legislation before us.

As we all know, it is a matter of utmost importance that we expand and enhance the tools available to law enforcement authorities and the criminal justice system to address the serious problem of organized crime. The committee members examining Bill C-24 understood this and recognized the need to move forward quickly with the bill.

At the same time, they recognized that we must ensure that the tools provided are the correct tools. Bill C-24 includes provisions of some complexity that would make important additions to the law of Canada. The committee members considered the provisions of the bill very carefully and with a clear understanding of its objectives. We can be confident in their work.

I must also highlight the assistance provided to the committee by the numerous witnesses who appeared before it. These witnesses provided substantial, thought provoking testimony and often did so on very short notice. Their efforts in preparing and presenting testimony were vital to the committee's proceedings.

The House will recall that Bill C-24, as approved at second reading, included proposals that fall under four main categories.

First, it would improve protection from intimidation for persons who play a role in the justice system.

Second, it would create an accountable process to protect law enforcement officers from criminal liability for certain otherwise illegal acts committed in the course of an investigation.

Third, it would broaden the powers of law enforcement officers to seize and forfeit the proceeds of crime and property used in crimes.

Fourth, it would create important new offences targeting involvement in criminal organizations.

While endorsing all four main elements of the bill, the committee made a number of amendments in its report to the House. The amendments would not alter the main thrust of the bill but rather make improvements upon it. The amendments would reinforce the effectiveness of the bill and refine the application of certain law enforcement tools.

I will briefly discuss the principal amendments.

With respect to protection from intimidation, the definition of a participant in the criminal justice system has been expanded to include members of provincial legislative assemblies and municipal councils. The definition already included members of the Senate and of this House as well as persons playing a role in the administration of justice. Expanding it to include members of legislative assemblies and municipal councils would recognize that other legislators have been called upon to play a role in the fight against organized crime and could be vulnerable as a result.

A further amendment was adopted which would extend the intimidation offence to include situations where journalists are threatened. Committee members felt that journalists play a vital public role by reporting on organized crime. Groundbreaking investigative journalism has assisted Canadians in understanding the nature and extent of organized crime in Canada. However, as we are aware, reporting on organized crime can come at a price. That is why the committee decided to amend the new intimidation offence to include journalists.

The government accepted the change to include journalists. However, upon further examination, it recognized that improvements to the amendment accepted by the committee were necessary to achieve the intended objective.

We are therefore presenting an amendment on behalf of the government that would add references to journalists to the intent provisions in subsection 423.1(1) and the description of prohibited conduct in subsection 423.1(2). The change to those provisions would add the specific intent of impeding journalists in the fulfilment of their role in reporting on criminal organizations.

There is no definition in the criminal code of what organized crime means. There has never been an agreement, either domestically or internationally, as to exactly what such a term may comprise. However a definition of criminal organization was added to the criminal code in 1997. Bill C-24 would refine and sharpen that definition.

A new paragraph in the bill, 423.1(1)(c), would thus make it an offence to intimidate a journalist:

—in order to impede him or her in the transmission to the public of information in relation to a criminal organization.

The motion proposed by the Bloc Quebecois would address the same issue but in far too broad a manner. The motion from the member for Berthier—Montcalm would make it an offence to intimidate a journalist with the intent of impeding the performance of his or her duties. That would mean journalists would be covered by this serious offence regardless of whether their work involved organized crime or any part of the criminal justice system.

The government agrees that journalists who report on criminal organizations are in danger and should be protected by the new offence. We should not underestimate the implications of such a broad amendment. It is a very serious offence indeed, punishable by up to 14 years imprisonment.

As a result of another provision in Bill C-24, a murder which occurs as a result of this offence would be first degree murder. The application of the offence to journalists must be limited to those whose work puts them in danger from criminal organizations. The government's motion would do exactly that.

Under the amendment made by the government's motion, it would also be an offence to intimidate a journalist when the intent, under paragraph 423.1(1)(a), is:

—to provoke a state of fear in a group of persons or the general public in order to impede the administration of justice;

There were technical problems in the amendment adopted by the committee. To address these problems, the amendment I have presented would add references to journalists to subsection 423.1(2). Such references are necessary to ensure that the definition of prohibited conduct includes conduct aimed both at journalists and at persons known to them. This would ensure that acts which seek to intimidate journalists through their family and friends are caught by the offence, as I am sure the committee would have wished.

We are proposing in the same motion limited amendments that would: first, add the word “criminal” in regard to the administration of justice in paragraph 423.1(1)(a) in order to be consistent with the definition of justice system participant in clause 1 of the bill; and second, add the words “provoke a state of fear” in the opening words of subsection 423.1(1) so that it describes the intent involved in all the paragraphs of that subsection rather than just paragraph (a) as is now the case.

This would better express the bill's original intent to penalize conduct which seeks to intimidate by causing fear. It would also address concerns expressed by witnesses before the committee that the new offence might be interpreted to apply to peaceful lobbying or protest activity aimed at legislators.

In connection with the amendments to section 423.1, we are also presenting two other consequential amendments. These involve the reference to the new offence in section 423.1 in the list of offences under section 183 of the criminal code, both in the main part of the bill and in a co-ordinating clause. The change simply reflects the addition of the application to journalists in the description of the offence.

I return now to the other amendments that were endorsed by the committee and that have been reported back to this House. With respect to the limited protection for law enforcement officers and agents who work under their direction and control, an amendment was added to provide specific examples of the conditions that ministers may impose on the designations that bring officers under these provisions. The protection from criminal liability is subject to important controls and limitations, and this amendment helps to clarify the nature of one of these controls.

Another amendment to the provisions on protection from criminal liability clarifies the requirements for the application of the protection to agents acting under the direction of law enforcement officers. This refinement adds a further safeguard to ensure the proper operation of these provisions.

A further amendment provides for a parliamentary review of these provisions within three years of their coming into force. This review will examine the sections dealing with protection from criminal liability. Parliament will then have an opportunity to consider whether improvements are needed. The supreme court has indicated that parliament has a responsibility for providing for protection from criminal liability for law enforcement officers. The three year review provision emphasizes this parliamentary authority and responsibility.

With respect to the provisions defining a criminal organization, an amendment was made to clarify that a criminal group will fall under this definition whether its members are situated inside or outside Canada.

This amendment recognizes the international nature of organized crime and ensures that the new offences of participating in, benefiting and directing a criminal organization will have the corresponding adequate scope. The criminal activity affected will still have to have a substantial connection with Canada and the amendment thus does not involve any extraterritorial application of Canadian law.

The committee also made a number of other technical amendments to improve Bill C-24. These are included in the amended text of the bill that has been reported.

In closing, I would like to thank the committee for its work on all these amendments, substantive and technical, and for its work in examining the bill as a whole. The result is an effective and balanced bill that would substantively improve our ability to fight organized crime in this country as well as improve law enforcement generally.

We look forward to the debate at third reading.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

12:45 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Vic Toews Canadian Alliance Provencher, MB

Madam Speaker, I would like to speak to the amendments to the bill.

First I would like to thank my colleague from the Bloc, the member for Berthier—Montcalm, for originally bringing forth the amendments to extend additional protection from intimidation to journalists. I think journalists play a very special and important role in our society. They are fundamental to free speech and in covering organized crime. The case of the journalist in Quebec being shot in the way he was last year demonstrated that fact.

As a number of recent cases demonstrate, journalists who serve the public interest by reporting on organized crime are very much in need of and deserve enhanced protection under our criminal law. Again I thank my colleague from the Bloc for bringing that forward originally in committee.

I thought it was interesting, too, that in the course of our committee certain government members appeared to only vote in favour of this amendment brought forward by the Bloc once it was implied that their names would get out to the media if they did not.

This is somewhat amusing, but in fact is kind of sad at the same time. When a member has to be persuaded—I do not like to use the word coerced—to extending protection to journalists by the threat of his or her name being published in the media, it is quite an interesting state of affairs.

I think it demonstrates the power of the media and indeed reveals the exact importance of the role of the media in uncovering matters of interest. Indeed, it is crucial to our democratic process.

Even that small situation confirmed to me the importance of this amendment because of the significant role that journalists play.

I will, however, be supporting the government amendments as opposed to the Bloc amendments. The Bloc raised the matter, however, a government member denied unanimous consent for the matter to be placed in the correct positioning and therefore the amendment proceeded as it did in committee. However, in listening to the government's explanation, I think the appropriate amendment would be as proposed by the government.

In respect of the amendment brought forward by the member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, I cannot support it. I would indicate that under Bill C-24 only the Solicitor General of Canada for the RCMP or provincial ministers responsible for the police are given the authority to designate police officers who may commit offences during the course of a legitimate criminal investigation. The amendment says that public officials will have the authority to designate these police officers only after acquiring authorization from a competent judicial authority, in other words, a judge. I cannot support that amendment. I do not believe that this is a process that constitutionally or otherwise requires the supervision of a judge.

We have heard from police evidence and other evidence that such a requirement which this amendment would impose would unnecessarily encumber police investigations without a real enhancement of the quality of justice or the quality of the police investigation. I think it is unnecessary to have judicial intervention at this time. There are unique circumstances that apply to undercover and other police investigations in this context, which I would think would grind to a halt if this process were adopted.

One has to remember that police officers regularly exercise this authority without legislative sanction. It was as a requirement or as a consequence of the Supreme Court of Canada that this amendment became necessary. It is a good amendment because it does set out clearly the legislated extent to which police officers may embark upon this course of action. I think it takes a lot of the guesswork and discretion out of it. It becomes a transparent process. Canadians and those enforcing the law will understand exactly what is required. I think most police forces would agree that the Liberal bill as it stands on that issue is a reasonable compromise.

I think the amendment brought forward by the member does not enhance the ability of police to get the job done in an appropriate and timely fashion. The bill already outlines quite clearly what police officers may or may not do and in which circumstances they may do it. It takes away that hidden discretion, the discretion that is unencumbered by legislation. I think this is a very good step.

In general I support the amendments being brought forward by the government. I again commend the member for the Bloc for bringing forward the matters related to the journalists. I also want to point out that there is a review process which was proposed in committee, that is, that this legislation would be reviewed within three years. That is important when we are adopting this kind of legislation.

We have listened to the police forces. We have listened to the public. We have listened to journalists. I think this bill as proposed by the Liberals, together with the amendments suggested by the government and the Bloc, is appropriate.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

Bloc

Yvan Loubier Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Madam Speaker, I too would like to pay tribute to my Bloc Quebecois colleague, the hon. member for Berthier—Montcalm, not only for his work in committee, as the Canadian Alliance member pointed out, but also for his continuous work, since 1994, in the fight against organized crime.

Since 1994, the Bloc Quebecois has always put forward initiatives to improve the criminal code, so that criminals, particularly those who belong to biker gangs and to organized crime in general, will be given meaningful sentences that reflect their crimes and the terrorism they institutionalized in today's society.

Back in 1997, when it decided to amend the criminal code, the government used several of the Bloc Quebecois' ideas. We were very pleased with that but, at the time, we were also aware that the criminal code had to be strengthened even further. At the time, we had pointed to certain flaws, about 80% of which are being corrected in the new bill.

We still wonder, and the hon. member for Berthier—Montcalm, often about this: since we were able to identify the problems with the criminal code, the flaws relating to the tools available to police officers to combat organized crime, why did the government take so long to recognize the need to strengthen the criminal code and to have specific provisions to lead a continuous, constant and determined fight against organized crime?

I am not saying that we would have avoided all that has happened, but some of the 151 murders committed between 1994 and now in the biker gang war, particularly to control the drug market, might have been avoided.

Some of the 170 attempted murders, including the recent one against reporter Michel Auger, might also have been avoided.

With a tightened criminal code, as we have before us today, we might have avoided some of these attempted murders, 13 disappearances, 334 violent crimes, 129 cases of arson, 82 bombings and the murder of one young boy in 1995. Young Daniel Desrochers lost his life as a result of a bombing in the Hochelaga—Maisonneuve area. The bomb was placed by the Hell's Angels, who were involved with the Rock Machine, now known as the Bandidos, in a war to control the drug traffic.

Let us not forget that, if we open the door to these criminal gangs, if we provide them with some kind of haven where they can grow and prosper, they can only become more arrogant and more powerful. With power comes their willingness to commit more crime to show their supremacy.

That is exactly what happened when two prison guards were killed in 1997, if I am not mistaken. We might have avoided these tragedies.

Members might remember that four years ago I talked about institutionalized terrorism in Quebec and southeastern Ontario, in the countryside. Members of criminal gangs grow marijuana in those fields every year. To ensure the growth of their business operations, they terrorize farm families. Maybe this is something else we could have avoided.

I am pleased with what I see in this bill. I even support the amendment put forward by my Conservative colleague allowing a judge to designate a member of a police force who can be protected from criminal liability for certain otherwise illegal acts committed in the course of an investigation.

It is also a way to protect the solicitor general. We should not forget that, when politics interfere with the judiciary, it always turns into a disaster, as we have seen in the past. It has always put us, willy-nilly, in terrible situations.

It is especially true since the practice of having illegal acts committed by police officers applies not only to investigations into organized crime. We often asked this question to the solicitor general and the justice minister. They have said that this practice is not restricted to organized crime.

This thing could go quite far. The solicitor general could have to make a political decision when what we need is a judicial decision. This could lead to abuse.

We have seen a lot of abuse in the past. We all know what happened in the 1970s. We would not like to see this happen again. Two royal commissions investigated police actions during the October 1970 events. The powers of were have been restricted, and at the same time, the roles of the RCMP and of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service were divided so that these roles would be clearly defined.

Did we forget about all these discussions? Did we forget what happened a few decades ago, so that we are now about to make the same mistakes again today?

We support the introduction of the judicial order, therefore of a judge, in the fact that the police are given authority or tools to work with, including the ability to commit offences not murder or rape, as part of their undercover operations.

I met a lot of policemen during the three months my family had 24 hour a day protection seven days a week because of death threats. I had reported gangsters who had taken over farmland in my riding, elsewhere in Quebec and in southeastern Ontario.

I therefore had a taste of that sort of terrorism. I also learned a lot by talking to the police who often came from drug raids and who had had to go undercover. They are often required to commit offences, because, if they do not, they risk their skins. They risk being killed on the spot. So, they need these tools in order to become more effective and to protect themselves as well.

They have to be careful. The job of policemen is not a cushy one. They need these tools. We support the fact that the government is giving them the tools to enable them to effectively combat organized crime and do not get discouraged. I also met police from the RCMP and the Sûreté du Québec, who, in the absence of legal instruments, were back at square one after months and months of investigations costing hundreds of millions of dollars and unable to lay charges.

I am very anxious to see, following the recent operation springtime 2001, with its 160 arrests, including the heads of biker gangs, how far we will be able to proceed with charges under the provisions of the Criminal Code as it now stands, and this will need to be discussed with the minister at some point.

The weaknesses that have been pointed out since 1997 are still there, until the new legislation is enacted. If they remain, this means that charges are not being laid and evidence is not being gathered against these 160 bandits who have committed criminal offences ranging from drug trafficking to corruption, intimidation of judges, politicians, journalists, and even murder or attempted murder.

If the tools available to us at the present time, which have been criticized since 1997 by the Bloc Quebecois and by my colleague for Berthier—Montcalm, stand in the way of laying any meaningful charges against this band of criminals, that will be the fault of the Minister of Justice, no more and no less.

She had no justification for waiting this long before introducing her bill. She had all the tools, all the analyses, at her disposal. We had provided them. She had everything she needed to make a decision to strengthen the criminal code well before today.

During the committee hearings, the hon. member for Berthier—Montcalm told me that, as regards the amendment to include journalists in the clause about people to be protected against intimidation through sentences of up to 14 years, we had to intimidate the Liberals to have them agree to include journalists in the list of people to be protected against intimidation. This is incredible.

We all know about Mr. Auger's experience. We know that, like politicians, as I learned from personal experience, journalists do a risky and dangerous job. They examine issues. They target criminals. They report on their activities. It is quite normal to include them.

However we had to threaten the Liberals with releasing the names of those who were opposed to including journalists in the list of the people to be protected from intimidation, before they would finally agree to this amendment. They got scared that their names would be released and that journalists would say “Listen, this does not make sense”.

For all these reasons, we will support the amendment proposed by the Progressive Conservative member. We will also support the other group of amendments, which consists in including journalists in the new clause on intimidation.

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1:05 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—St. Clair, ON

Madam Speaker, I rise today to speak to the amendments proposed by my friend from Pictou—Antigonish from the Progressive Conservative Party. I would like to indicate on behalf of our party that we support these amendments.

Before I go to the specific amendments, I would like to acknowledge the work that the committee did and the fact that the Liberal government saw its way through to add that provision to protect journalists. Work that has been done by journalists specifically on organized crime has been exemplary. They do that profession proud. The fact that the government has recognized their work and their need for that protection by the expansion of the provisions to prevent intimidation is an excellent one. I congratulate them on it.

The two amendments proposed relate to the necessity of having a judicial review of police officers who commit crimes in the pursuit of the provisions of these amendments to the code. I believe it is really important to take a bit of an historical perspective on the necessity of having this type of protection built into the legislation.

As my friend from the Bloc indicated, no one here has any misgivings about what we are doing with the rest of the bill. We recognize the seriousness of organized crime in the country, particularly in Ontario and even more so in Quebec over the last number of years. It has become a prominent issue. No one is downplaying the significance of the need for this legislation. No one is downplaying the significance of the need to protect police officers in their duties, especially in this area. They are at constant risk for their own safety and at times their lives. So there is no issue with regard to that among anyone in the House or in the government.

However that does not say that we ignore the reality of the structure that we have built in our legal system over the centuries. There has been any number of times in the past where we have gone to excess in dealing with a criminal problem. I am afraid this could be one of those occasions, if we pass this these amendments to the code without the provision of a judicial review for police officers who commit crimes or breach other parts of the criminal code because of the necessity to do their work.

We have had a long history of balancing our responsibility to provide protection in a safe environment for our citizens with the recognition that there are civil liberties in the country. We have to recognize those. We always hear that we are just worried about the criminals. Police officers are human. They can make errors. The whole idea behind our system is that we provide someone else, in the form of judges, to protect us from those errors. Again, I am not going to suggest judges are perfect. I have appeared before too many of them in my career to suggest that. However it is an additional measure, and a very important one, to provide all citizens with that type of protection.

As a result of questions from I think at least three of the four opposition parties, we have heard the Solicitor General of Canada and the Minister of Justice repeatedly say the that it is just too cumbersome, or synonyms of that word.

That is just plain nonsense. We have used this system in providing warrants, sometimes very complicated warrants, and our judges have been able to deal with that. There is no reason, given the skills they bring to their positions, that they cannot do the same thing in this area.

I know a number of groups appeared before the committee when the bill was being reviewed. The Civil Liberties Association and a number of the bar associations made representations. All pushed strongly for this extra protection. Quite frankly, all indicated their understanding of the need for the legislation, but wanted the safety net built in to provide all citizens with this protection. It is our responsibility. We should fulfil our responsibility by accepting the amendments of Progressive Conservative Party and by supporting them.

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1:10 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Peter MacKay Progressive Conservative Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS

Madam Speaker, I will be very brief. I congratulate and thank the other members who spoke on this topic, especially the member for St-Hyacinthe—Bagot. He gave a very important perspective on the subject, of which he obviously has first-hand knowledge.

I hope all members will vote for this amendment.

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1:10 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

Is the House ready for the question?

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1:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Question.

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1:10 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

The question is on Motion No. 1. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

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1:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

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1:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

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1:10 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

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1:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

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1:10 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

All those opposed will please say nay.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:10 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

In my opinion the nays have it.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

1:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

On division.