House of Commons Hansard #81 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was coalition.

Topics

Broadcasting ActRoutine Proceedings

4:20 p.m.

The Speaker

There is no agreement.

(Motion deemed adopted and bill read the first time)

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:25 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Joe Clark Progressive Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

Mr. Speaker, I move that the first report of the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs be concurred in.

I draw attention to a number of issues that relate to the government's intentions and requirements in the coming weeks.

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time in this debate with my colleague, the member for Saint John.

The report was originally presented to the House on June 14, 2000, during the second session of the 36th Parliament. The report was a major study of the procurement by national defence and it outlined many of the needs of the military.

The level of preparedness of Canada's armed forces has been deteriorating continually since this government came to office.

The government's only military plan is simply to hope that no crisis occurs, that there is no need for the Canadian Forces.

Now we have a crisis before us. The terrorist attacks on New York City and Washington show that there is no limit to what may be made a target. The target can even be in North America.

The information we have received from our security intelligence services establishes clearly that terrorist cells may be found even here in Canada. This has been confirmed by the leaders of other nations, as it was yesterday by the king of Jordan. Our own Prime Minister did not want to tell Canadians all the facts about terrorists. He did not level with Canadians.

Instead, CNN, the American network, confirms for us what our agencies and services are saying in this regard.

The government was informed in June that terrorists would become more dangerous and more determined. There was an indication that Canada was a target. Canadians want to share in the fight against terrorism. We want to win this battle and we know very well that among those first called on to fight the fight will be the men and women of our armed forces.

We ask them to give up their lives in a time of crisis, but this government starved them when they needed new equipment, better working conditions and more support.

The Prime Minister has been invited to Washington. He follows President Chirac, Prime Minister Blair and other heads of state. Our Prime Minister follows behind the parade, because Canada has failed to maintain the level of its international commitments, which our allies count on.

When the Prime Minister goes to Washington, we know what he will be asked. He will be asked to stop the movement of terrorists to and from Canada. He will be asked to extradite or to deport people who are wanted for crimes related to terrorism. He will be asked to curtail the flow of money to terrorists or their organizations, and he will be asked to share intelligence and defence capacities.

Insofar as defence is concerned, the embarrassing question for Canada is, what resources do we have to share?

Let me quote from an article by Jeffrey Simpson in the Globe and Mail this morning entitled “Canada's help: Who are we kidding?”:

The U.S. knows the lamentable state of our military and has periodically complained about it. Canada had one ship in the Persian Gulf, but it has returned home. The navy has frigates, but they remain without helicopters, courtesy of the Chrétien government's cancelling of a contract agreed to by the Mulroney government nine years ago. Ottawa has yet to issue detailed requests for proposals for these helicopters.

The article goes on:

The army has a few special units but lacks sufficient equipment and men to be effective in any dangerous operation. The air force has CF-18s but lacks in-air refuelling capabilities and some necessary technology for serious combat. Canada's military forces are so weak that the Chrétien government's support for any military fight against terrorism will necessarily be limited.

That commentary is by an objective journalist and commentator.

We have no long range tanker aircraft to get our fighter aircraft overseas. Our Hercules transport fleet is aging. Without tankers, it will be difficult for Canadian fighter aircraft to get overseas. The 1st Battalion Royal 22nd Regiment in Quebec is ready for deployment, but it is not a special forces unit. It lacks transport for rapid deployment and would have to go without its heavy weapons. Most of our forces are committed already in peacekeeping operations around the world. Our armoured corps is outdated and our tanks do not have the armour or the armament to stand up to handheld weapons, the sort of weapons terrorists use.

The 1994 white paper on defence called for Canada to contribute a brigade size force of about 5,000 men for sustained overseas operations. We are not capable of carrying out that commitment, according to retired Major-General Lewis MacKenzie.

The Canadian navy is the best off of our three services but it lacks modern, robust maritime helicopters, key to surface actions. It is understaffed and it lacks financial resources.

We are paying a price today for a lack of preparation in the last nine years. The matter we are calling upon to debate, the committee report we are discussing today, itemizes ways in which Canada can move forward and become a respectable military force in the world again. We cannot simply sit back and engage commitments unless we are prepared to accept them. We are facing a commitment now and we are not in a position to do as well as Canada should be doing.

I am pleased to pass my debate time now to the hon. member for Saint John.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:30 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Elsie Wayne Progressive Conservative Saint John, NB

Madam Speaker, I am a member of the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs. I have had the opportunity since 1993 to work on defence and veterans affairs issues and to review in the last couple of years in great detail the state of readiness of our armed forces.

Retired generals and retired colonels came to our committee and made presentations. I wish the Minister of National Defence, the Minister of Finance and the Prime Minister had been there to hear what they had to say about our armed forces and the needs that are not being addressed by the government that should be.

I am confident in my belief that our men and women in uniform are without some of the essential equipment they might well require in this new war against terrorism.

The House will recall that since my election as an MP in 1993 I have repeatedly risen on the replacement of the Sea King helicopters. As everyone in the House knows, there were those who lost their lives because we did not get the EH-101s to replace those Sea Kings. Members of my family have said to me, “Please get out and fight for the replacement of those Sea Kings”.

The House knows that I have remained firm in my belief that the government has been more concerned with the political consequences that would follow the replacement of the Sea Kings with the EH-101s and not the military factors that make their replacement so essential.

Many here in the House and indeed many in the other place have questioned the government's lack of action in providing our armed forces personnel with the best equipment possible for the tasks we assign them.

In 1999 a report by CSIS said that there were 50 terrorist groups in Canada and they had 350 people working with them. Instead of the government doing something about it, what did it do? It laid off 750 CSIS employees. Instead of increasing the numbers to look after the safety of Canadians, 750 employees were laid off.

Our concerns are not political in nature. Rather, we recognize that our men and women in uniform are not in a position to come to Parliament Hill with placards when their funding is cut. We know that our men and women in uniform are going to the food banks. We are aware that when they came back from peacekeeping missions they were told on the airplane to take off their boots because they had to pass them to the men and women who were going to replace them. Imagine that here in Canada there is not enough money in the budget to even give uniforms and boots to our armed forces.

A senator who went over to Kosovo said that when he saw our peacekeepers he could not believe it when he looked at their uniforms. He could not believe the lack of resources that they had. Our armed forces have repeatedly shown their selfless desire to complete their duties without hesitation. In return we must insist that the government honour its duty to them by providing the tools they require.

Those of us who have advocated increased spending for our military have in the past been called alarmists. It has been said in the House that we live in a post cold war world that does not require us to be as vigilant as we once had to be. Last week tells us differently now. No one in Canada could have predicted the events of last week, and no one in the U.S.A. However those events have served as a vicious reminder that we can never allow ourselves to lower our guard.

In fiscal year 1993-94 the budget for the Department of National Defence was $12 billion. That budget was stripped down to a scandalous $9.4 billion by 1998. We would be wise to bear in mind and consider that it was during the period of these massive cuts that our armed forces operational tempo, the ratio of time spent by our Canadian forces personnel in deployed missions, rose from 6% to 23%.

Today, on the eve of the most important conflict since the second world war, we are witnessing firsthand the price of those deep cuts. The government has as its policy to maintain a regular force of no fewer than 60,000. Yet, as we stand here today, the actual number has dropped below 55,000. Our forces have been called to duty in almost every corner of the globe, to the point where we have made unreasonable demands of our most loyal citizens and their families.

Some of our armed forces equipment has been found to be either unsafe or in need of significant repair each and every time it is to be used. As hon. members are aware, we have frigates that were built in Saint John, New Brunswick. We were supposed to have modified helicopters and that was not done because of the cuts.

A unanimous report was brought forth by our defence committee with all party support. It said that we should continue, on an ongoing rotational basis, the building of navy ships right here in Canada, whether by MIL Davie Inc. or Saint John Shipbuilding Limited.

When I was down in the United States just a week before that horrible attack I met with Vice-President Cheney and I raised the Jones act. I want it on the record that he agreed with me it was time to address the Jones act whereby we cannot bid when ships are being built in the United States but they can bid on all our contracts.

We should not be buying used submarines from London, England, that cannot float. We then pay $800 million to make them float. We should be putting our own people to work. We should be building our ships and giving our navy the tools to do the job.

The House will recall the disturbing reports of rusting and missing parts on helicopters and aircraft like the CF-18. Lives have been lost. We must make sure that no more lives are lost in Canada because our men do not have modern tools to do their job.

The Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs has repeatedly made all party unanimous recommendations to the government in support of more funding and better equipment for our military. Many of us have been encouraged to hear the Minister of Finance indicate that from this day forward no expense would be spared to ensure the safety and security of Canada and our people.

One might ask if we should have been more diligent in the past in maintaining the funding levels at a rate where our operational readiness was not a point of debate. One might also ask if we should have encouraged that state of mind when approaching major equipment purchases like the ongoing process to replace our Sea King helicopters. What the government is proposing as replacements for those Sea King helicopters are not really replacements as they cannot do the job that the Sea Kings could do.

The House will know that the government's instructions are that the procurement process be directed on the basis of the lowest price compliant bid despite the fact that Treasury Board guidelines require such programs to operate under the provisions of a best value principle.

It is difficult, if not impossible, for us to predict what our military needs will be in the coming months. All we know for certain is that our armed forces and our country as a whole must be prepared for the worst. It is no longer acceptable for us to assume that the United States will protect us just as it is no longer possible for us to take comfort in the fact that the cold war has ended.

The sentiment I rise to express today, one of deep respect for our Canadian armed forces coupled with distress at our government's inaction, is one that is shared by a legion of retired military personnel who have committed their years out of uniform to the protection and promotion of those who remain in uniform today. Let us learn from those who have firsthand experience in these matters and let us listen to them. Let us put their wise counsel into practice and let us prove to the world that our armed forces are indeed a force to be reckoned with.

There are many in the world today who hate Canada simply because we are a democracy and friends of the U.S. There are groups with arsenals of weaponry who would do us harm solely because we value freedom, liberty and human rights above all else.

The only thing that makes their existence more frightening is that we cannot say for certain where they are. The events of last week have shown us that despite the best intelligence gathering available these terrorist threats can strike whenever and wherever they want. Those who would do our country, our continent and our friends harm should know that the Canadian armed forces will respond. Those who would seek to end our way of life should think twice about doing so, fearful of the protection we have afforded ourselves.

The reality is that the world knows that Canada's military power is not what it used to be. In the time since the House last sat the American ambassador himself issued a friendly but stern reminder to us that we have defence related obligations to our friends and allies that cannot be forgotten. We cannot take comfort in the security our relationship with the U.S. provides us and then not rise to the occasion when it asks for our help.

Last week, in mourning the loss of the 5,000 innocent victims of this tragedy, our nation showed its infinite capacity for compassion. As the nations of the world prepare for a battle between the forces of good and evil let us remind them why we are known for our courage. We will be there to assist.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:40 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Jason Kenney Canadian Alliance Calgary Southeast, AB

Madam Speaker, I commend my friend from Saint John for her longstanding and passionate advocacy of the need for our country to place much greater emphasis on our capacity to defend ourselves and advance our national sovereignty. She is certainly a very principled advocate of that.

I agreed with her remarks with the exception of her comment on procurement programs such as shipbuilding for national defence. I inferred from her comments that she was suggesting we ought to procure equipment in Canada as a sort of industrial policy.

This is a concern to me because it seems that the objective in providing a strong national defence and maximizing our scarce resources ought to be to seek the best available equipment at the lowest possible price, even if that means tendering defence procurement contracts overseas.

Does she think that if it costs us more to tender a procurement contract for defence equipment to a domestic company that this is in the best interest of advancing our capacity to defend ourselves and maximizing those scarce tax dollars?

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:45 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Elsie Wayne Progressive Conservative Saint John, NB

Madam Speaker, I am saying that our navy should continue to build ships on a rotating basis because when the contract for 10 frigates was received by Saint John, New Brunswick, and MIL Davie Inc., they started to age after 10 years. We are saying one ship a year, whether it be for the coast guard, the navy or whatever.

We are also saying that we should be bidding on the contracts in the United States. The Jones act has blocked us. We were the first ones to go to the U.S. when Ambassador Chrétien was there. I asked him if he was dealing with the Jones act and he replied that he had never been asked. When we went down this time to see the new Canadian ambassador he too said that he had never been asked.

When we went to see Vice-President Cheney he said he was glad we had raised it because it was not right. Canada should have the opportunity to bid down there, build those ships in Canada, and put our people back to work. We have the most modern shipyard anywhere in the world sitting idle right now because we do not have a navy shipbuilding policy, and we can build ships cheaper than anyone else.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:45 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Chuck Strahl Canadian Alliance Fraser Valley, BC

Madam Speaker, I too thank the hon. member for her remarks. One of the things I would like her to address is a policy that is followed by other countries. I am thinking specifically right now of Australia. It does not do what this government does and say “This is the funding for this year”, and then slash a billion or so out of it the following year and tell us that we will just have to make do. It provides long range funding. The military budget is not just a line budget that can be cut up or added to. One cannot build an armed forces that way.

I used Australia as an example but many countries in the world provide long term funding because they realize what a military needs. It needs surety in its planning. It needs reliable funding because it does not raise its own funds. It relies upon parliament. It does not do what the government does here, which is to make it a political football where it slashes even below its own targeted number of troops and equipment revitalization and renewal.

Some say the military should be taken out of the political realm and given long range stable funding so it can plan its future. Then when we ask the men and women of the armed forces to go and do the job they have the tools because they were given the long term funding to make it happen.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:45 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Elsie Wayne Progressive Conservative Saint John, NB

Madam Speaker, I totally agree with my colleague. As was stated earlier by our leader, there is an article in the Globe and Mail which says what the colonels and the generals have been stating. It says “The military's limitations were recently displayed when Canada could only participate in peacekeeping operations in Macedonia by transferring troops from elsewhere in the Balkans”.

These are married men and women who have children. They do not even get home to see their families any more. We need long term budgets and not just on a yearly basis. We need a budget that will be there and increased for the next 10 years.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

It is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the question to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment is as follows: the hon. member for Cumberland—Colchester, Lumber Industry.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:50 p.m.

Glengarry—Prescott—Russell Ontario

Liberal

Don Boudria LiberalLeader of the Government in the House of Commons

Madam Speaker, I will not take much time to debate this report. I wish the House had not considered this report today for a number of reasons. First, the report was tabled on June 12. Anyone who has read the modernization committee report would know that moving concurrence in a report where the government has been asked for a response and not had an opportunity to respond yet is like shovelling air. It does not do anything. I am surprised the right hon. member would not know this.

The government--

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:50 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Howard Hilstrom Canadian Alliance Selkirk—Interlake, MB

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Has the government House leader gone to government orders?

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Don Boudria Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Madam Speaker, if the hon. member is asking if I intend to move to orders of the day, it would be pointless because by the time the bells rang there would be no time to do so. If he is asking if I intend to do that so the Speaker could rule on Standing Order 52, unfortunately it cannot happen because the time has been used up with things that are certainly not the ones I would have asked for. I believe that answers the hon. member's question.

It does not take away from the legitimacy of the issue I wanted to raise because it is an important one. No doubt the Speaker in time will respond to it. Meanwhile I only wish to take a moment to indicate my remarks to the House and to let other members respond if they wish. If not, hopefully the debate will collapse and we will move to orders of the day as we should have, in my opinion, half an hour ago.

I just want to indicate that the government's response should come within 150 days or by November 9. It would be even sooner under the new rules that we could be concurring in later this day with everyone's co-operation, given that it was a unanimous report.

The government fully intends to table its response within the time period. It would be inappropriate to concur in a report before we have even responded to it. In other words there is nothing to concur in, if I can put it that way to the House.

Those are all the remarks I wanted to make. Hopefully the House will agree now to move to orders of the day. We probably will not be completing the consideration of the modernization report, but at least we could start it and do the productive work we have been sent here to do by Canadians.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:50 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Greg Thompson Progressive Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB

Madam Speaker, I have a question for the government House leader. I have a document in my hand that tells me that the procurement of the Sea King helicopters goes back to 1978 when Prime Minister Trudeau was the Prime Minister of Canada. If we were to have started production today, we would have waited almost 30 years.

Could the minister provide a legitimate reason that the replacement of those Sea Kings helicopters has taken so long? Why did the government spend so much money cancelling the Sea Kings that obviously were part of the ongoing election campaign in 1993?

One of the points I want to make is the fact that the government spent $500 million to simply cancel the helicopter contract. In other words, it was half a billion dollars to simply cancel the contract with not one helicopter being built. How does the government leader justify that kind of expense?

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Don Boudria Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Madam Speaker, I guess you are ruling that question in order. The questions normally are on the speeches people have made. I do not believe I have discussed the procurement for maritime helicopters. Nevertheless, if it pleases the House to discuss that I am certainly pleased to answer the hon. member's question.

I believe the hon. member had the unfortunate experience of being a member of the Conservative government of Brian Mulroney. I really pity him for that. It is a most unfortunate thing. The Conservatives, I believe, wanted to waste an amount of over $6 billion that we did not even have at the time to buy helicopters that were way beyond our means. The government was broke. It had $42 billion of deficit on account of it own mismanagement.

Yesterday we heard the Minister of Finance inform us of the historic developments of repaying this year of $17 billion of owed debt accumulated by the Mulroney government of which the hon. member was a member. It was a most unfortunate thing and I know the member is trying to forget that.

Speaking of the helicopter procurement, the House will know that we have bought a number of search and rescue helicopters. The other project, the maritime helicopter project, should be completed around 2005, I am informed. That will be done.

Meanwhile, we are maintaining the helicopters that we have, the Sea Kings. We know they meet the safety standards that we have. We do want to replace them with helicopters that will meet our needs but they must be ones that we can afford because we do not buy things for which we cannot pay the way the previous government did.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:55 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Deborah Grey Canadian Alliance Edmonton North, AB

Madam Speaker, I would like to run through a few numbers with the government House leader. He said that the Tory-Conservative program for the EH-101s was $6 billion. He will know that I was not a member of that minority government and I would like to ask him a couple of questions about the math on the Liberal side.

The EH-101 cancellation fees were $500 million. The Sea King maintenance and upgrades to the year 2008 amounts to $600 million. Canada's search helicopter program consisting of 15 helicopters is $790 million. The CSH long term service support over 25 years is $1.7 billion. These are Liberal numbers. The maritime helicopter project consisting of 28 helicopters was $2.9 billion.The MHP long term service support over 25 years was another $1.7 billion. The administrative cost in splitting that procurement was $400 million. The total cost of Liberal programs with zero inflation was $8.6 billion.

There are still zero helicopters in that of course and he is talking about the Conservative program for the 43 EH-101s being $6 billion. That is an extra $2 billion plus. That is an amazing amount of money.

What about the lives of the pilots? Of course we could never ever put a dollar figure on that.

Would the government House leader somehow explain and try to justify that since 1978, under the Liberal government of Trudeau, cabinet acknowledged the need to replace the Sea King when in fact those machines had gone into service in 1963. Even after only 15 years of service the Trudeau government said there was a need to replace the Sea King. The Sea Kings have outlasted Trudeau.

Could the government House leader explain that for us, please?

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Don Boudria Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Madam Speaker, I think it is better not to comment on the part about outlasting the late Right Hon. Pierre Elliott Trudeau. It would be better for us to pretend we did not hear that, at least it is a little more respectful.

If I recall, getting back to the substance of what she asked, after she was elected I remember her questioning this procurement that she is now defending in the House. I remember that she and her party condemned the outrageous Conservative expenditures and now she is standing in the House defending them.

It is a curious thing. An hour ago we were talking about a coalition. I think things are coalescing at quite a speed in another direction.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

5 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Peter Goldring Canadian Alliance Edmonton Centre-East, AB

Madam Speaker, I too would like to ask for a little more explanation on the total lack of preparedness of the government and our military with regard to the Sea Kings.

I was a member of the Royal Canadian Air Force in the early 1960s, the time in which the Sea Kings were first purchased. The replacement schedule for the Sea Kings is the year 2010, which means they will have been in service for 50 years.

In light of recent events and not knowing what our deployment requirements will be in this tragic event that has been unfolding, what kind of impact will our Sea King helicopters have on our military? Will the present Sea King helicopters be considered frontline serviceable? If not, what does that do to our frigates, which are designed to carry frontline helicopters?

Will both of those units be relegated to home shore use because they are not frontline capable? In other words, would we seriously send into frontline duty 40 year old Sea King helicopters with our frigates? Is that what we intend to do if called upon?

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

5 p.m.

Liberal

Don Boudria Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Madam Speaker, we have had a series of questions here from the hon. member across the way. The savings for Canadians from the combined purchase of the maritime and search and rescue helicopters is in the order of $1.5 billion. That is the savings we will generate by the careful management of taxpayer dollars.

On the issue of the Sea Kings and the fact that we have flown those particular aircraft, it is an aircraft that is used right around the world. The Sea Kings are still a viable aircraft. We are replacing them. The date of replacement has been scheduled I believe for 2005. I believe that target date is still expected to be met. That is still the intention of the government in that regard.

I was not quite sure in the way the hon. member asked his question about the frigate whether he was suggesting that the ship is not an ultra modern vehicle. I happen to believe that it is a worldclass ship. I have been on board. I stayed for days on that ship with members of our armed forces in Esquimalt and in the training areas around Nanoose. I saw myself how that particular ship functions.

It was not a long time ago that there were frigates. The HMCS Ottawa is a very modern ship. I am sure the hon. member across the way, who knows a lot about things military, will acknowledge that.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

5 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Jason Kenney Canadian Alliance Calgary Southeast, AB

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity to rise in debate in support of this concurrence motion for the report of the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs at this particularly prescient moment.

As I said in my remarks on the motion before the House regarding the tragedy that struck the United States last week, the whole world has changed dramatically, particularly the world in terms of strategic considerations for free countries such as Canada, for NATO countries in particular. Yet the dramatic new realities we face, particularly on the strategic front, have not in any way been reflected by the government.

Let us start from first principles. The first responsibility of a national and federal government is the maintenance and protection of national sovereignty. It is not one among competing objectives. It is not some nice to do thing that finds its way onto the list of government programs. It is the first principal responsibility of a national government.

There are dozens, probably hundreds of programs administered by the federal government at taxpayers' expense where the federal government has no constitutional responsibility. Yet it has neglected its principal, its first, its primary responsibility year after year, and not just this government but its predecessor governments going back nearly four decades.

When the second world war ended Canada had the third largest navy in the world. The Royal Canadian Air Force was regarded as perhaps the most respected military air force in the world. Our ground troops had punched far beyond their weight in the ground war in Europe and in military actions in the Pacific theatre in that war. We finished that terrible five year conflict proud as a nation of the tremendous contribution we had made, marshalling our national resources, tragically sacrificing so much Canadian blood but for a noble objective.

For the past 30 years, and particularly under the Liberal government for the past 8 or 9 years, we have seen that proud military tradition and our ability to do our moral duty eroded by indifference, eroded by the wrong priorities, eroded by a federal government that does not recognize the safety and security of its citizens and the protection of its national sovereignty as its primary objective.

Between the years 1994 and 1999 the government exercised a modest expenditure restraint program. Mainly it raised revenues and raised taxes to address the crushing deficit, but it did restrain program spending in certain areas. Again, however, the way in which it cut reflected its complete perversion of priorities because it cut defence spending by over 20% at a time when non-defence department program spending was cut by only 3%.

What this indicates is that the first primary responsibility of the federal government was cut most deeply and the lower priority areas which are not even contemplated in the constitution as federal responsibilities were barely touched at all. This is the world turned upside down in terms of public responsibilities.

Madam Speaker, I neglected to mention that I will be splitting my time.

We are left in the regrettable situation whereby Canada reinvests less than half among the average of NATO countries in defence expenditures as a percentage of gross domestic product. Our 19 NATO allies on average spend 2.1% of their gross domestic product in defence of national sovereignty whereas Canada spends only 1.2% of GDP, giving us the second lowest defence expenditure in NATO, ahead of only the tiny duchy of Luxembourg with a military force of 800 people.

We have become, notwithstanding the tremendously hardworking, skilled, dedicated and patriotic people in our military force, a token player at best in the military alliance in which we, as one of the world's largest economies, the most prosperous nations, have a moral responsibility to be a bulwark in.

We have the seventh largest gross domestic product in the world, a great blessing for a small country, and an enormously prosperous standard of living and national wealth. However, while we have the seventh largest gross domestic product, we have the twenty-sixth largest defence investment and we are 18th of out of the 19 NATO countries.

This is a complete betrayal of our national tradition as a country that is willing to invest resources to at least do our share, if not more than our share, to defend democracy and peace here and abroad.

Look at the particulars raised by some of my colleagues earlier in the debate that have been discussed at the defence committee.

For instance, according to the 1994 defence white paper, we are supposed to be able to field at least a brigade of 5,500 ground troops abroad at a high state of readiness in a conventional conflict. It is absolutely clear that we do not have the capacity to do so right now, according to every expert in our defence.

Only 83 of our 120-some fighter craft CF-18s are operational and virtually none of those fighter craft have modern, contemporary radar and electronics equipment systems which are critical, indispensable, to engaging in modern air combat.

We have no lift capacity for our ground troops. Even if we had 5,500 troops that we could put on the ground at a high state of readiness, in the words of retired Major-General Lewis MacKenzie we would have to hitch a ride and take a taxi from American aircraft in order to transport our troops to a theatre of conflict.

Our much celebrated frigate fleet cannot even put to sea simultaneously. Often one sees those frigates tied up in Halifax or Esquimalt because they do not even have a budget for fuel to operate for the course of an entire month.

This is an embarrassment and it is a humiliation to the men and women who risk their lives to defend our national sovereignty.

Ten years ago, we had a defence force smaller than our share of 90,000 people in our military, now down to 55,000. We have essentially halved our commitment. We have done this, I believe, because it reflects a philosophical attitude of the Liberal government that investments in national defence and protection of sovereignty are not a priority, that it is a frivolous occupation of would be warmongers and that the second war was the war to end all wars. That was folly between 1918 and 1939. Equally it is folly today, as we have seen from last week's events.

Regrettably, I heard the defence minister virtually dismiss out of hand in question period the other day the notion that there would be a conventional war as a result of the attack on America and the free world last week. When pressed as to why he made this assumption he had no clear answer.

I would like to close by saying that we may very well, as a free nation in NATO, find ourselves in the midst of not just one conventional conflict but potentially serial conventional conflicts over the coming years. We do not know, but it is our moral responsibility to be prepared for that eventuality and to do so means that we must fundamentally reorder the priorities of the federal government to at least do our share.

To do that, even to have the average military expenditure amongst NATO countries would mean a $9 billion increase in our defence budget. That is a huge line item, but we must begin to think about the magnitude of reordering our priorities, to do our share and to do our military men and women proud as well as preserving our rich tradition as a defender of democracy and freedom.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

5:10 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Rick Casson Canadian Alliance Lethbridge, AB

Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to ask my colleague a question. I want him to lend us his knowledge of this issue along with his knowledge of the finances of this country.

This summer I had the opportunity to go on a resupply mission with CANFORCE 85 and 86 air commander Rick Harper on a C-135 Hercules. That airplane was 35 years old, with 40,000 hours on it. It was twice past its life expectancy. That mission on a weekly basis is vital to keeping the people at Alert Bay and our troops in Thule supplied.

To me it seems bizarre that we would do something like that. I could not get over how tremendously skilled the people were and how faithful they were to their purpose.

I would just like to ask my colleague a question. When he talks about priorities, where in this budget of Canada's would he find the money to replace this C-135 Hercules with a C-17 that would take care of that job and give these people equipment they can work with and feel proud to operate?

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

5:15 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Jason Kenney Canadian Alliance Calgary Southeast, AB

Madam Speaker, I would suggest that the government could find the resources necessary to provide that equipment and so much more equipment that is necessary by reallocating resources as I suggested to reflect what our national priorities ought to be, particularly at this time of crisis.

In the past our party has recommended at least an immediate additional funding commitment of $1 billion to the Department of National Defence in order to procure the sort of equipment to which my hon. friend refers. We would find those resources for national defence and additional resources on top of that by taking those dollars away from frivolous, low priority programs.

We are unable to provide the kind of equipment my friend is talking about, yet the Minister of Industry is speculating on creating a $3 billion program to subsidize access to high speed broadband Internet in Canada. That is not a federal responsibility. It is a responsibility of the marketplace.

Or there is the Minister of Multiculturalism, who just spent $4 million in tax dollars sending professional members of lobby groups and friends of hers to the outrageous Durban conference in South Africa to stay in four star and five star hotels at taxpayers' expense and involve themselves in a disgraceful gabfest surrounded by anti-Semitism in various forms.

Those are the kinds of spending priorities reflected by the government. Those are dollars spent on corporate welfare: economic development programs that do not work and do not create jobs, and handouts to Liberal lobby groups. These are dollars that could be going to our highest national priority, defence.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

5:15 p.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NS

Madam Speaker, I am entering rather quickly into the debate on military procurement. There is one question that arises due to the circumstances of September 11, and that is with regard to the Shearwater air base in my riding.

Very soon a decision will be made by DND to divest itself of the 1,100 acres of land on which Shearwater is located. The problem is not that it is virgin land or land that cannot be used. There is an extremely long runway on that air base. For years I have been trying to protect that base from any kind of downloading or off-loading, because it not only represents 1,200 direct jobs in my riding, it also represents a jewel in the crown of the military infrastructure. It has been there for 83 years.

We never know what may happen down the road and heaven forbid that there may be serious long term consequences as a result of the tragedy on September 11. My question for the hon. member is, due to the circumstances surrounding September 11, would it not be prudent for the Minister of National Defence to hold off on any divestiture of land similar to Shearwater until further decisions can be made? Would he not agree that would be a wise move at this time?

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

5:15 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Jason Kenney Canadian Alliance Calgary Southeast, AB

Madam Speaker, I thank my hon. friend for his question. I do not know the particulars surrounding the Shearwater base, but he makes a reasonable point. As we are now clearly having to reassess our military priorities and expenditures, I think it would be reasonable to suggest at least a moratorium on further base closings.

I do think, however, that where we have bases our procurement policies in principle should be based on the operational needs of our forces, to create maximum operational efficiency for the forces. Shearwater may very well meet that criterion. I would support the hon. member in delaying any closures until we can see in this new environment the need for bases of that nature.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

5:15 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Leon Benoit Canadian Alliance Lakeland, AB

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to speak to the concurrence motion on the government's response to the defence committee's report. I have seen a lot of government responses to committee reports and have seen several reports put out by the defence committee.

I have felt in the past that some of the responses were weak, but frankly I have never seen a weaker response by a government to a report of a committee made up of all parties in the House. I have never seen a weaker response than the one we had to the procurement report. It is completely unacceptable.

It is clear that the government does not hold national defence as a top priority. The Canadian forces are the largest security force we have in the country. Yet we see the kind of weak response we got to the committee's report on procurement. It is completely unacceptable.

When we see this kind of response we know the government does not believe we need a strong national defence. If it did it would give a serious response to a report like this one. It can be well demonstrated that the government does not place national security and defence as a high priority.

We can start with the commitment to the number of personnel in the forces. Since the Liberal government took office the number of personnel in the Canadian armed forces has dropped from 90,000 to 55,000 and is still dropping. According to a report put out a few months ago by the Canadian Institute of Strategic Studies the number will reach 42,000 before the government can stop it. It will have gone from 90,000 down to 42,000. The government is more than halving armed forces personnel. That is completely unacceptable.

I hope and pray the government finds a way to stop this rapid slide. We are losing some of our best people. This kind of drop in personnel shows a lack of commitment to national defence.

The second point is funding. Money is not everything but it could certainly be spent much better. There is a great need for better management and in some cases better leadership in our defence department. We need these things. The money we have could be quite a bit better spent .

Some of the contracting is suspect. Some of it, such as single source contracting and that kind of thing, is completely unacceptable. We are paying more than we should for equipment in some cases. We know what happened with the Sea King replacements. The Liberal government cost the taxpayer money by backing out of the deal put in place by the former government. We cannot afford to lose that kind of money. In spite of all that, the government has cut spending to national defence by 30% in real terms since it took office. That is the kind of commitment the Liberals have to our national security.

What is the top priority of the federal government? What should it be? It should be the security of our nation. It should be the protection of the citizens of Canada. Yet the government has cut military personnel from 90,000 to 55,000 and it is still sliding. The government cut the budget by 30% in real terms.

In his last report the auditor general said the government was $30 billion short of meeting its procurement commitments. In terms of procurement it will be $30 billion short by 2012.

Because the government is not planning and does not put a high priority on defence, it will be $30 billion short by 2012. Does that sound like a government that puts a high priority on the security of the nation and on national defence, the largest security force the country has? It does not. That is a sad commentary.

I do not say this with any glee because the issue should be non-partisan. It is too important to be a partisan issue. I am looking to all members of the defence committee from all parties. I think members will see the importance of this now that we have had this terrible act of terrorism.

I think members will agree to debate the issue in depth and have a good discussion. Hopefully we will get a meaningful response from the government on national defence. We cannot wait any more. It is too late to deal with the situation in terms of immediate reaction.

I asked the minister today what Canada would be able to contribute to a NATO force striking back against terrorism. That was my first question and he gave no answer.

I asked the minister a second question. The minister always refers to the F-18s and what we did in Kosovo. He points to this as our great strength. I asked him how he would find pilots to fly the F-18s when we have lost more than half our experienced pilots who flew in Kosovo.

Our government has allowed it to happen. It has allowed the airlines to steal our best pilots. They did not leave because of money.

I did a survey in Esprit de Corps magazine which I have not yet talked about in public. It asked why people have left the forces over the last several years. They said they did not leave because of money or low pay. They left because they felt the government did not believe their role was an important one. They felt the government did not believe national defence to be a high priority when it comes to the security of our nation.

We have wonderful men and women serving in our forces. They want to be recognized as playing an extremely important role. We have among the best in the world. We truly do. All they want is to be recognized as carrying out an important function. If the government recognized that it would give them proper equipment so that when we sent them to the font lines they would have the best. Right now they do not.

If the government respected the work these people do it would treat them well when they came back injured whether their injuries were physical or psychological. Post-traumatic stress disorder has become a terrific problem. We are losing a lot of our good men and women because of it.

A common complaint is that the government does not do enough to help soldiers who come back injured. Whether it is a mental or a physical injury makes no difference. It sends a message to the men and women who serve that we do not care, so of course they leave.

The air force probably has the highest morale of any of our three forces. Yet in spite of that they are leaving. Most of our experienced pilots who could take part in an operation like Kosovo are gone. The men and women who are left are extremely good but do not have the experience to step in and play a meaningful role.

What do members of the government think the answer will be from our NATO allies and friends like the United States? What will the reaction be when they ask for a serious commitment and we say we cannot give them one? What do government members think the reaction will be?

An extremely important conference of NATO parliamentarians will be held in Ottawa in early October. While attending these conferences during the past four years I have consistently heard that Canada is losing respect among our NATO allies because we can no longer meet our commitments. That is a sad commentary.

It is time the government took national security and national defence seriously. It can start by giving a serious response to the procurement report. Everyone from all parties recognizes that the response the government has given is unacceptable.

I call on the government to give a serious response to the procurement report as soon as possible. I believe that is what all members of the House want.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

5:25 p.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NS

Madam Speaker, my question is for my colleague on the defence committee. As he well knows, the supply chain will now be under review under what is called alternate service deliveries. The Government of Canada will lose control of supplies going into our military bases throughout the country and overseas in times of crisis.

Does the member not agree that it would be prudent for the government to delay any alternate service deliveries until situations cool off in the near future?

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

5:25 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Leon Benoit Canadian Alliance Lakeland, AB

Madam Speaker, I almost hate to agree with a member of the New Democratic Party when it comes to defence issues but truly this is too serious an issue to make it a partisan issue. I do agree with the member that it is time to take a really good look at our defence issues from one end to the other and really determine what this country needs in terms of national defence.

I think it is time for a new white paper but not one that gives the government an excuse to reduce spending or to lower its commitment. I am talking about a white paper that will redefine what we really need to meet our commitments both at home and abroad to make Canada a more secure country.

Until we do that I think we should hold off on continuing to put certain things into the hands of the private sector. Certain things really are better left in the hands of the military. Let us have a good look at that before we continue with it.