Debates of Sept. 20th, 2001

Criminal Law Amendment Act, 2001

[Roy H. Bailey, Canadian Alliance, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Madam Speaker, as my colleague from Medicine Hat said, on this day it is very difficult to speak to this topic but I want to assure the House that for a million or more Canadians out there this is a very important bill. The bill is so important to them that they are waiting and waiting. Most of all, those who follow the House recognize that the bill takes away my right as an elected MP. It disenfranchises me because of its complexity. I will explain.

If I vote yes to the bill I am telling a million people out there that I am turning over the definition of cruelty to someone who lives in Toronto or Vancouver and who is far removed from the animals we raise on farms. If I vote no to the bill then I am saying no to regulations on pornography, disarming a police officer and so on.

Canadians need to know that the bill is well designed and well planned, not for now, but let us say we have an election in June 2004. Every member of the opposition will be accused either of voting for something or voting against something. It can be used in a very political way. It is meant to hurt everyone who has been elected to the opposition in the House.

A man in Saskatchewan invented what he called a gophinator to control those pests, gophers. He wanted to patent the machine. It uses a very simple procedure of shooting gas down the hole; the animal dies instantly without any pain. I said to others that it would never pass because some animal rights people would not allow it. That night on a phone-in radio show a man from Vancouver phoned to say that the machine should not be registered because people in the west do not understand that gophers are good for them. They aerate the soil.

That should give the House some idea of why the cattle industry, the animal industry and even other industries are so concerned that all of these things have been put into one bill. If we vote yes we are damned, if we vote no we are damned and if we abstain we are damned. It is a no-win situation for us in the opposition and the government knows it. The government has planned it, not for now but for the future.

Surely to goodness if the government would talk to people, those people would say to split the bill into sections and let people debate them.

There are people out there who will tell those engaged in the chicken industry that it is cruel to have those hens locked into cages. We have all heard that. They will say that the pork industry must abandon its procedures. The industry that really is concerned is the cattle industry, and not just in my area. As I said during statements by members, and as my colleague from Medicine Hat mentioned, those farmers out there right now want to put in dugouts so they hopefully can catch the next spring runoff, but the government has run out of money through the PFRA. That is understandable, but when the government needs money for various things it can throw a million dollars anywhere. All the farmer gets to put into one of these collecting systems is one-third.

We have ignored the industry and now these people are facing this stupid legislation. It is stupid. I have heard animal rights people say it is cruel to castrate a calf. The government will abide by the rights of these people. That will come. What will also come to the industry is that branding will be prohibited. What will come is a huge cost to the industry to survive.

Not only that, there was the last time I went to a rodeo, which is a big sport in the west, the challenge of man against beast. I saw the animal rights people with cameras right up close. I talked to them. They said there are two events that will have to be removed from the rodeo and they will fight until they are. The first one that they say is cruel and has to go is calf roping. The other one is bulldogging or steer wrestling. The biggest target these people have in this country is to some day block out the Calgary Stampede. They have stated this publicly.

Here we are, wanting to destroy, with a bill in regard to which legitimately elected people are faced with the choice of voting yes, no or abstaining. As my colleagues have mentioned there are some good points in the bill. How will I vote? If I abstain, the government will say I do not have any guts. If I vote yes, then I will be saying to the whole cattle industry across Canada that we are going to let some crackpot decide what cruelty is. If I vote no, then the government will say that I approve of child pornography and all of these things.

This is a lot more serious than we think in a democratic process. If the government gets away with the bill, if it does not break it down, we will see more and more complete disregard for my colleagues who have been elected from across Canada and who sit in this opposition. Make no mistake about it, the bill is a bill that disenfranchises every member who sits in the opposition.

Let the public know that. We will be disenfranchised if the bill passes in its present state. Democracy goes out the window completely because we cannot support the bill in its entirety as it is presently before us.

I plead with the government to let its individual members look at this, to let them examine what they are doing to the concept of free and open debate. Let them examine what they are doing to the opposition members who have to go back to their constituents and try to explain why they voted or abstained.

The bill is wrong, and I know one thing: every single member opposite in the Government of Canada knows it is wrong but they are using the bill in its entirety as it is being presented before us here. We will find out what the motive is but right now we just do not know.

In conclusion, the government should pull this bill, break it down, preserve democracy and have some respect for the humble people over here who happen to sit in the opposition.

[Jay Hill, Canadian Alliance, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Madam Speaker, I listened very attentively to my hon. colleague's speech. He certainly raises a great deal of concern that I am hearing expressed all across the land, particularly in rural ridings.

As he says, the industries involved in guiding and outfitting are important to the welfare of especially northern Canada and other parts of Canada such as Quebec and Labrador. It is a huge business. He also mentions farming and ranching and the impact the legislation could potentially have on the rodeo circuit, that whole industry and the people employed in it. I could not agree more. There is a great deal of concern.

I am reminded of other omnibus bills such as Bill C-68. At that time the opposition warned that once again the government was lumping a whole bunch of things, some good and some not very good, into one omnibus bill.

The firearms act and the registration of long guns ironically impacted on some of the same businesses. It has a very negative impact in many respects on guiding and outfitting. We have heard that all sorts of problems have arisen, especially with foreign hunters that are a big part of the business being allowed to come into Canada with their firearms and still being able to abide by the new restrictions inherent in Bill C-68.

As far as the impact on farming is concerned, we still get correspondence from farmers because of the restrictions placed on them. How unworkable and irresponsible some of those regulations are when it comes to the way in which they can protect their herds, for example. They have always been able to protect their livestock by responsibly using firearms.

In my short political lifetime of eight years we have already had evidence of the folly of omnibus bills. Surely the government must recognize that in particular with Bill C-68 and all the problems that were created because of forcing it through without thinking things through.

Would my hon. colleague have any other examples in his memory either at the provincial or federal level where governments, over the very justifiable concerns being expressed by opposition, rammed through legislation in an omnibus fashion?

As he says, and I agree, there are some inherently good things in this bill. Probably the majority of it would be viewed as a good, positive step. Certainly some things have not been properly thought through and the impact will be tremendous on some industries.

Does he have any examples of other omnibus bills in the past that were poorly thought through as well?

[Roy H. Bailey, Canadian Alliance, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Madam Speaker, I spent a lot of my life in local government and some time in provincial government. I have never seen, nor would I accept, a bill like this one in either municipal or provincial government. If this becomes a habit, as my colleague has mentioned, democracy goes out and we literally disenfranchise ourselves.

The outfitting industry in Saskatchewan is big. I have two nephews who own companies and work in it, but they now know they must sell and get out. Bill C-68 has put them out. The people who have come into my province for 40 years, and their grandparents before them, no longer come. We have turned away a very big industry. That is what Bill C-68 did.

Come to think of it, I do not ever recall an infraction of law in any province by any of the people who made it a regular habit of coming in.

Again, let me make it clear. It is similar to an auction sale when there is one item in a lot but the whole lot has to be bought to get it. There are some good things in the bill, but in order to get the good things and make them applicable to society we have to take a bunch of garbage. I am confident the government will split the bill.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Madam Speaker, I do not mind admitting in the House that I too am quite concerned about all aspects of the omnibus bill.

I would like to ask a question of the member on the specifics of the legislation in the area he is concerned about. He said that the bill would allow some crackpot to decide what is cruelty, and I wonder if he would expand on that.

Being a farmer I have worked on cattle farms out west. What might be his interpretation of the branding of cattle as worded in the bill? Might that be a problem as well?

[Roy H. Bailey, Canadian Alliance, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Madam Speaker, in response to my hon. colleague, the determination of what is cruelty is not contained in the bill. Therefore, who will make that decision?

My brother-in-law had to go to court as he inadvertently threw something at a squirrel and killed it because it was in his attic causing a disturbance. That is cruelty to animals. If I were charged every time I took a .22 and popped a Richardson's ground squirrel, I would never get out of jail.

The hon. member knows the problem is with the terminology respecting what activities are cruel. We do not know. We should applaud the ranchers and farmers who have governed themselves.

I inform the hon. member of a request that came through the other day about a minimum height in stock trailers for horses. If we really want to know about people who are concerned about cruelty to animals, we should ask those who raise them for a living. We cannot have something as vague as this bill when it comes to cruelty.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Madam Speaker, before getting to the main thrust of my speech, I would like to take a mere 30 seconds to extend my best wishes to our new whip here in the House, the hon. member for Témiscamingue, and his great team.

We all know about his promotion, and I am sure my enthusiasm is shared by others, knowing that he will acquit himself of his duties with a combination of two facets of his personality, good old-fashioned authoritarianism and unceasing generosity.

It is, however, somewhat incredible that we are faced here with a bill that is so unpalatable, so inconsistent, so unacceptably flawed as far as its definitions go, such an incoherent mishmash.

Madam Speaker, I was elected when you were, in 1993, although I am your junior by a few years, and I would never have believed at that time that I would one day end up in this House being forced to speak to a bill as inconsistent as this one.

How can people claim to be part of a properly functioning system if they are in government and expect legislators to properly acquit themselves, with due care and professional conscience, of their task of examining legislation, and yet come up with a bill that is totally impossible to grasp?

We would have understood had the government chosen to deal with such an important issue as animal cruelty. Of course, there is a new school of thought, of which we are aware because people make representations to us as their elected representatives. We know that the issue of animal cruelty requires a tightening of existing legislative provisions, including those contained in the criminal code.

We would have understood had the government chosen to validate its bill. Contrary to my colleagues, I am not one of those who will not get to the bottom of the issue. I would have been extremely happy to do my job as a parliamentarian, to listen to what people in our communities had to say on this issue of animal cruelty and to do whatever I could to ensure we have the best legislation possible.

But it is not what this is about. The same bill deals with the offence of disarming a police officer, the Firearms Registration Act, and the process for reviewing allegations of miscarriage of justice.

Could anyone give me an explanation? I would ask my colleagues in the government majority, who have become cruelly silent in this debate, to tell me how all this was presented to them in caucus. Can anybody on the government side tell us what the connection is between the process for reviewing allegations of miscarriage of justice, gun control--members will notice that my colleagues are constantly urging me on, which gives me the impression that I am really giving my best--animal cruelty, imposing harsher penalties, disarming a police officer, and the Firearms Act?

Nobody can. I hope that during the period of questions and comments, someone on the government side will rise, and on the pretext of asking me a question, answer this one.

Let us make no mistake, the member for Berthier--Montcalm, whom you hold in high esteem, as do I, rose in this House and made it clear that we support certain provisions without reservation.

For example, there is the whole matter--an important one--of the sexual exploitation of children in a way that did not exist when we were children, but that has taken on massive importance in the past ten years, and more specifically in the past five. I refer to the Internet.

These are important provisions, which must be included in the criminal code and require us, as parliamentarians, to hold a proper debate. But, for heaven's sake, how can they ask us to vote on this sort of indigestible mishmash of a bill?

I cannot imagine that. There are responsible drafters at the Department of Justice. There are people who no doubt said to the government “It is really not very reasonable to combine a variety of problems that have nothing to do with one another in a single bill”.

If, for those who have just joined us, we had to summarize the bill, I would say there are eight major focuses.

As I have just mentioned, there are references to the establishment of new offences in order to protect children from sexual exploitation, including that which involves the Internet.

The member for Berthier--Montcalm will shake his head to correct me if I am wrong, since his legal knowledge is well known, but I think this arises from a court decision. Does it not arise from a decision by the BC supreme court? The member is nodding, so I guess I am not mistaken.

The second focus of the bill consists of increasing the maximum penalty for criminal harassment. This is an important provision.

With the third point, things start to drift a bit. In fact, if the philosopher Pascal were here, he would say of this bill that the centre is everywhere and the periphery nowhere to be seen. The third focus of this bill makes home invasions an aggravating circumstance for sentencing purposes.

So, we have gone from cruelty to animals, to child pornography, to sexual harassment, to home invasions. It is hard to find a common thread in such a hodgepodge.

Fourth, the bill proposes a new offence, that of disarming, or attempting to disarm, a peace officer. This is an important provision. Every year, law enforcement officers attend an awareness day on Parliament Hill. For several years now, I have been meeting with them, as have a number of my colleagues, and I therefore know that this was one of the things they were asking for. Should this be included in a bill like the one before us? I have my doubts.

The fifth focus of the bill is to increase the penalties for cruelty to animals. Say again—just when you think you've heard everything—I must point out how vague this bill is and how open to criticism the definitions are.

The proposed definition for “animal”—obviously the question arises and we must be clear—is as follows:

“animal” means a vertebrate, other than a human being, and any other animal that has the capacity to feel pain.

The question that arises is whether a farmer who deliberately poisons a rat will be charged under clause 15 of the bill. There is no immediate answer to this question on the strength of the proposed definitions.

Let me be clear. There are several important provisions in the bill which we support, but the debate we have been invited to take part in today has to do with the amendment moved by the Canadian Alliance members regarding the need to divide the bill.

The hon. member for Berthier--Montcalm told me earlier, and he knows these issues well, that this bill could easily be split into three different bills. Based on the various provisions, there could have been three bills that could have followed the course of parliamentary process that we are all familiar with: tabling of the bill, second reading, referral to a committee, third reading, debate and referral to the other place.

Again, I hope that someone from the government side will stand up and explain to us what the rush is to pass such a patchwork of measures in this omnibus bill. We need to give the government a serious warning. We have had it with this idea of tabling omnibus legislation which leads to a certain amount of confusion. We rush them through and, in the end, this creates, again, inconsistency.

We were not elected to the House to be confused. I think we need to recall what the philosopher Boileau said “What is conceived well is expressed clearly, and the words to say it arrive with ease”.

But that is not how it starts, it starts as follows:

Clarity of thought for some Remains a goal not often won As through a cloud there comes no sun

I must say in all friendship to the Minister of Justice this day has definitely not come in her case, because her mind is fogged by thick clouds. Indeed, it takes some nerve to dare introduce Bill C-15, an omnibus bill governed by eight different principles dealing with eight different issues that have nothing to do with one another, except for the fact, of course, that they are all included in the criminal code.

The best thing that could happen would be to see the pages go around the House and pick up the copies of this bill, and the Minister of Justice go back to the drawing board and table, as the hon. member for Berthier--Montcalm rightly pointed out, two or three bills. Then I can assure hon. members that we would make a contribution to the review of this bill, in a serious and reasonable fashion and with the good faith that has always characterized the Bloc Quebecois.

Far from me the idea of downplaying the issues of animal cruelty, sexual harassment or child pornography on the Internet which, as we know, was ruled on by the court.

We should not be proud of what is going on today. Not only is there no reason to be proud, but it is an ugly thing to want to use one's majority to confound the opposition. I should point out that this is our third mandate here and we have seen quite a few of these malicious attempts.

If I could make a wish it would be that both sides, the government and the opposition, would put an end to this practice of introducing omnibus bills and instead take the time required to table bills dealing with very definite issues.

When the issues are very specific, it is easy for us legislators to understand the government's objectives. Let us do our work properly in the House, in committee and at third reading. Is this not what the voters who mandated us here expect? Is this not a legitimate expectation on the part of our fellow citizens? Unfortunately, as I said, this is not what is going on today.

We must ask our fellow citizens what attitude they wish us to adopt. The terrible thing about the situation we are in today—the member for Berthier--Montcalm admitted this just now—is that we lose either way. For instance, we want very clear restrictions on child pornography on the Internet; we hope that the legislation will included tougher provisions in the criminal code.

We can go along with one very particular dimension of Bill C-15. But how can we ignore our desire to hold a real debate on the issue of child pornography when at the same time there are provisions regarding the mechanisms for review of judicial errors? The issue of judicial errors is not an insignificant one. The member for Repentigny himself introduced a private member's bill on this issue.

Let us remember that there have been a number of judicial errors. People have been locked away for 15, 20, 25 years in jail on the strength of facts that turned out not to be accurate. We have some only too concrete examples of people whose lives were ruined because justice made a mistake.

Furthermore, if I may approach this with my customary frankness, the Marshall Commission was created to look into this problem.

The Marshall Commission recommended that when it was a question of reviewing judicial errors and deciding on corrective action, it should be possible to operate with complete freedom from any sort of political interference and that there should be an independent body which would ensure a fair and equitable review, guided by the principles of basic justice and of natural justice.

My understanding of the bill before us is that this is not the direction in which the government is urging us to go, because this decision will lie with the Minister of Justice. Once again, this is not personal. We are not saying that the Minister of Justice is incapable of making good decisions. We are saying “Why not go along with a trend we are seeing in public administration, which is to separate the legislative arm from the executive arm so that the people making the decisions are independent, free from any political interference?”

As we can well realize, we have before us someone who is sad. Unfortunately, I believe we will be extremely aggressive in this instance, as a group of parliamentarians, and will do our best in order to gain an end: the breaking up of this bill. I do not think that is anything unreasonable.

I can see my colleagues in the government majority, and they will agree with me that everyone stands to gain from having clear ideas when involved in politics, that everyone gains if we all understand what we are voting on.

There is one important point to be raised. Does Bill C-15 have to be the government's priority? In my riding, four bars have been blown up, so far. The biker gang wars are on again in Montreal, although some people may be under the illusion that things had calmed down. That is not so. Bars are being blown up. It started in Saint-Henri, and now it has spread to Hochelaga—Maisonneuve. The member for Berthier—Montcalm and myself, along with our colleague, the critic for the solicitor general, have worked very, very hard in parliamentary committee to improve Bill C-95, which has now become Bill C-24.

The bill is not perfect, as we know. At least the offences have been described better. Aggravating circumstances have been added. The definitions are better, so that some people who were not covered in the past now are. With Bill C-24, people at any place in the legal system will be better protected.

We would have liked to have seen the process take a better course than this. There were many other priorities for the government than to bring Bill C-15 before us.

I will make a short digression into the area of health, which is my primary area of responsibility after all. The hon. member for Drummond, who is no hothead, not one to get carried out or to lack judgment—in fact her judgment is very sound when she addressed these issues—made a comment in connection with the bill proposed by the government on the new technologies of assisted reproduction that it has a constant tendency to resort to omnibus bills. It was were not able to immediately propose to us a bill that would have banned cloning for reproductive purposes, as well as for therapeutic purposes.

The opposition has worked hard to help with a problem and a bill like this one. I repeat, why do we have such an ill-conceived bill, one that is likely to implode because of all the contradictions it contains? We could have had a debate on reproductive technologies, because—let us not forget—there is a legal void at the moment.

It is not unthinkable that a researcher in Italy, Germany, France or anywhere else in the world could arrive in Canada and start playing around with human embryos and end up in a situation where genetic engineering could lead to cloning. Our hands would be totally tied.

As we saw this summer, there is a legal void, because there is nothing in the criminal code to allow the crown to take action on this basis. This is something we could have done.

In closing, I would say the best thing we could do would be to decide to split the bill. The government should act on this request. Once the bill is split, the government could count on the opposition to do its usual responsible and thorough work.

[James Lunney, Canadian Alliance, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his intervention. I think there is a surprising measure of agreement here among those of us on this side of the House and I know there is agreement among many on the other side of the House. I had a member from the other side agree with many of the issues that were raised just now.

In my riding people are very concerned about certain aspects of the bill. When we talk about Internet pornography and luring children with the Internet, there is a big measure of concern. Canadians across the country are very concerned about this aspect. They are wondering why the bill has been held up and why it has not gone forward. The issues we have had to bring up again and again in the House are being well illustrated.

We have had terrible examples of home invasions in our own area and I am sure across the country where there is brutality, especially with elderly people who are victimized in their own homes. I think aspects of the bill would find unanimous consent and would pass very quickly in the House, as is well evidenced by speeches on the bill today and earlier.

Disarming of a police officer or attempting to disarm and allegations of miscarriage of justice are all areas worthy of support.

However, as has been mentioned by the hon. member, and I would like to reiterate, concerns have been raised in my riding about animal abuse. We live in a rural community and we have seen some terrible examples of animal abuse by people who are negligent and have not fed their animals or have not looked after pregnant animals. I have seen animals just down the road from where we live that have been neglected. The whole community has been concerned about it. We need to see action to protect the animals. People in my riding have wondered why the legislation has been delayed.

However, when we talk about equating responsibility for animal welfare with animal rights, people in the agriculture industry and in the hunting, farming and fishing communities have a lot of legitimate concerns. The legitimate use of animals is put into question because of questionable wording in the bill and because of the linking of the bill to the Firearms Act and so on.

We agree with a large part of the arguments presented by the hon. member from the Bloc and others in the House that this putting together of so many unrelated issues is just not acceptable for members who cannot vote with good conscience on this issue and support the bill, although there are other aspects that we would wholeheartedly support.

My question for the hon. member is with regard to calls that I have been receiving in my own riding from people who have seen animal abuse and want to know why we have not taken action, and from people who have been concerned about Internet pornography and wonder why we have not taken action. I wonder if in his riding his office has received as many calls as mine and I am sure other members in the House?

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Madam Speaker, I thank our colleague for his comments. I think I made the bill's incoherence quite clear in my remarks. We must not, however, let it be thought that the government need not act to prevent cruelty to animals.

When we discussed these provisions in caucus, our critic pointed out that reference in the Criminal Code to cruelty to animals dated from the 19th century. It should therefore be brought up to date, with very specific definitions for the matters we are referring to.

Some of my colleagues were concerned by the fact that the definition of cruelty might be incompatible with hunting and fishing activities that are legal today. We must therefore separate what we want to see continue as a recreational activity from the offences we want to see applied to those who mistreat our animals.

We therefore support the idea that animals are not just possessions. We have concerns that relate to the major animal protection agencies that want clearly identified punishment for inflicting pain on animals.

Our colleague also pointed out the importance of the whole issue of sexual exploitation through a new medium--the Internet.

In fact, there was a ruling in British Columbia. Unless I am mistaken, the hon. member is from British Columbia. We know this is not an issue related to freedom of expression. We cannot accept that a medium such as this one allows for the exploitation of children, for indecent pictures, for pictures that are totally incompatible with the moral values that we wish to implement and promote in our society. It is important not only to tighten controls, but also offences related to such practices.

We are concerned about this issue. We want to do things right. Again, we would have liked to have two, three or four bills, so that each one would have been debated based on its own merits and relevance.

[Howard Hilstrom, Canadian Alliance, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

Madam Speaker, I have a question, which I will preface with a couple of comments.

When I spoke earlier today of a hidden agenda, I was referring to a part in the bill which says that if a person has a pheasant in captivity and the person releases it into a field of corn for the purposes of hunting, that would be illegal. I believe that provision is still in the bill. That would substantiate the point I made about there being a hidden agenda behind the bill.

I was a member of the mounted police at one time. I am mentioning this because it is pertinent to the debate. Legislation that I and other policemen have used to prosecute people for cruelty to animals has always been in existence. The only problem we had was whether the provincial crown prosecutor was willing to prosecute the case in court. Of course that was something out of the hands of the police, but the law was there.

The deficiency in the law was that the penalty was very light and the sentencing by the courts was very light.

My question for my colleague is twofold. Does he believe there is a hidden agenda in this legislation? Does he believe the penalties could have been toughened in the existing criminal code? When it comes to the livestock industry, does he not believe the section which gives legal justification for animal husbandry and putting an ear tag in an animal's ear should be transposed into the new legislation?

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Madam Speaker, these are fairly specific questions and I consider it a pleasure to answer them to the best of my knowledge.

We are dealing with a system of hybrid offences, with sentences ranging from a maximum of five years in prison to 18 months. Keeping in mind that I am not an expert in sentencing, this appears quite normal to me, given that the circumstances may vary. I do not believe, therefore, that the Bloc Quebecois would go to great lengths to oppose the proposed sentencing system, however, the need to split the bill is quite a different matter.

As regards the second part of our colleague's question, as to whether or not the government has a hidden agenda, obviously, the government is not always clear and lucid in its ideas. As we all know, we are dealing with a government that is rather opaque when it comes to ideas.

I am prepared to assume that good faith is presumed, and bad faith should be proven. I do not wish, at this point, to suggest that the government has a hidden agenda. However, tabling a bill in this manner, which combines a variety of different issues which are each quite different one from the other, creates confusion, which does not speak well of the government.

[Larry Spencer, Canadian Alliance, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Madam Speaker, the federal justice minister has assured the House of Commons by saying “what is lawful today in the course of legitimate activities would be lawful when the bill receives royal assent”. However, justice ministers come and go. Does the hon. member think this would always be the case for any justice minister?

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Madam Speaker, I did not fully understand the question, however, I may be able to answer it at a later sitting. I did not really understand the meaning of the question; I am sorry.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

Since we have a bit of time, the member may repeat his question if he wishes.

[Larry Spencer, Canadian Alliance, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Yes, Madam Speaker. The minister said that what is lawful today would remain lawful when the bill receives royal assent.

If there is a change of justice ministers, would that minister still agree that what was lawful when this is passed would still be lawful five or 10 years from now?

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Madam Speaker, I am getting the subliminal message that all members of the House would like to see a cabinet shuffle before the end of the session.

[Deepak Obhrai, Canadian Alliance, Calgary East, AB]

Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure to see you back in the chair. I hope you had a good summer holiday. What puzzles me is simple. Government members were members of the opposition prior to 1993. They know how important a role the opposition plays in a democracy.

Those members have actual experience at being in the opposition. Those members stood in this place and held the government accountable. We can quote Hansard time after time to indicate what they said was important for democracy. What puzzles me is that, now they are on the other side, whatever they said while they were on this side has gone out the window. It is amazing that when they were in opposition they were pointing to weaknesses in our democracy. They are ignoring their own advice now that they are on the other side.

Many people listening to the debate may be wondering what we are talking about with regard to this omnibus bill. If I were listening to this debate I would have to ask myself the same. What exactly is the issue? Let me state this in plain and simple terms so people can understand what we are saying.

The government has brought in a bill containing a number of virtually unrelated justice issues that have been lumped into one piece of legislation. It makes it extremely difficult to debate these issues that are important to Canadians. They cannot be brushed aside. This is not a housekeeping bill.

I will talk about some of the issues. Child luring and child pornography over the Internet are extremely important issues, considering what is happening with the Internet. It is accessible to a huge number of people. This is a new menace which needs to be controlled and discussed at length.

The issue of animal cruelty is included in the bill. I have received a huge number of postcards from people regarding the pros and cons of what is considered animal cruelty. I am sure every MP has received a huge number of letters from people concerned about the issue. Canadians living in rural regions who deal with animals on a day to day basis have a different perspective because their living depends on it. They want more clarification so they do not break the law.

My colleague, the most senior member in the Canadian Alliance caucus and probably in the House, talked about shooting squirrels and sitting in jail for a long period of time. I hope it does not come to that. He was trying to illustrate the simple point that the bill did not have a lot of clarity.

The bill also contains amendments to the Firearms Act, Bill C-68, which is a totally different subject altogether. Criminal harassment is also contained in the bill, as is the issue of disarming a police officer. This is a very serious issue that we need to discuss to see what punishment should be given and what criminal procedure should be followed. This legislation needs a lot of discussion.

We are discussing many issues that are contained in one bill. We are saying that we cannot have a proper debate on all these important issues because members of parliament are not able to speak about the concerns of their constituents.

This is a bill drafted by bureaucrats who wanted it passed. They should not have sent it to the House of Commons. They should have done it under regulations. The bill does not have the input of the representatives of the people of Canada. It has the writings of the bureaucrats who do not represent the elected people of Canada. Bureaucrats do not get feedback from the people; elected representatives do.

I have been the CIDA critic and I know the government spends millions of dollars in bringing people from fledgling democracies to Canada to show them how democracy works. Over the period of 100 years this Chamber has built itself into a very respectable place where we debate issues. However when bills such as this one are introduced, democratic rights are trampled.

What is democracy? Democracy is where a government is accountable on issues of the day. It is the right of Canadians to speak through their elected representatives who sit in the House.

Then we get something like this, an omnibus bill written by bureaucrats, where we cannot discuss the issues in more depth to present the views of all Canadians. We have a big, diverse country containing diverse views. The government likes to use the word diversity and how it is the defender of diversity. Diversity also includes the points of view from coast to coast to coast, from urban to rural areas.

We do not have the opportunity of doing that because everything is lumped together in the bill and by 5.30 p.m. it will be all over. It will be pushed through.

The bill was written by bureaucrats who sit in Ottawa and do not represent the diversity of Canada. Members of parliament represent those diverse views.

When speaking to people who have come to see democracy in action, I have said that we have to be vigilant not to let the rights of the opposition be eroded because that right is the right of the people to hold a government accountable. When that erosion happens then we have to speak. Bill C-15 is an example of that.

Many members on the other side have also recognized that. When they were in opposition they understood the important role of the opposition. They too are saying that they see the danger and warning signals in Bill C-15. However they cannot say anything. Nevertheless they do have concern.

There are currently five members of the government here. In the last one and a half hours I have been sitting in the Chamber I have not even seen one of them stand.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

I remind the hon. member that we do not mention the absence or presence of members in the House.

[Deepak Obhrai, Canadian Alliance, Calgary East, AB]

Madam Speaker, I will not mention it. However nobody has defended the government's point of view. We were hoping there would be a far more aggressive defence regarding this democratic issue and that someone could explain why everything is lumped in one bill.

Child luring and child pornography are important issues today. They are issues because of the explosion of the Internet around the world. People are taking advantage of it so we must be vigilant. Our constituents have written to us because they are concerned. We support legislation dealing with those issues.

Animal cruelty is something we cannot support as it stands right now because we need more clarification and debate. The bill should be an effective bill and not a bill with gaping holes which at the end of the day does not fulfill its mandate.

During the debate on the unfortunate incidents that took place in America we pointed out the gaping holes that exist in the immigration legislation. I heard the minister of immigration say on television that she was looking at filling those gaping holes. However there are still gaping holes in the immigration legislation that need to be looked at.

What will be the outcome of this omnibus bill? We will have the same situation. Why could it not have been done right in the first place with separate bills? It is because the government does not have an agenda.

If we look at the long term calendar there is nothing much on the agenda. There is no vision, no strong initiatives. The government is on cruise control as far as I am concerned. Then, what is the urgency for putting everything into one bill?

We have many questions regarding the Firearms Act and about the amount of money the government has spent on the registration fiasco we keep hearing about from constituents. My constituents have phoned me many times and described the big fiasco and the difficulties they are having. Technically many of them have already broken the law because of the inability to register their guns.

These are the things that we need to talk out. Is the government so afraid of its own legislation that it needs to go through the back door to pass legislation?

Disarming a peace officer is a very serious crime. We heard from police officers about the need for and the importance of this legislation. Many of the members on that side will not have done their job if they vote for this bill because in reference to the Firearms Act they have ignored what their constituents were saying to them.

The bill is the beginning of an erosion of the democratic right of Canadians and the opposition. The government is using its muscle and Canada is becoming a dictatorship under one party rule.

At this given time, the bill is being rammed through without proper input of the Canadian people. The Liberals may have the majority, but at least we have had time to talk about each and every point and discuss it properly, not have unrelated justice issues. If this goes through, how many other omnibus bills will come forward? We do not know. Any time the government has an unpopular bill, it wants to send it through without debate. Do ministers want to leave a legacy, even though Canadians do not want it?

How can we stop an omnibus bill? Right now, and like my colleague said, we are appealing to the government to think for a moment. Government members were in opposition. They know the importance of the opposition, of holding the government accountable, of having debate on issues and bringing all the points forward. They can do this by withdrawing the bill and bringing it back in stages for proper discussion.

What will we tell our friends who we bring to Canada to see how our democracy works? If we showed them this bill and told them what happened, even they would scratch their heads and say that something is wrong. Why spend millions of dollars promoting democracy? We should also live by example.

In conclusion, the bill has been drafted by the bureaucrats with an intention of getting all the points in without serious debate because they think they know right and they expect the representatives of the Canadian public to rubber stamp it. That is what the bill is all about.

[Howard Hilstrom, Canadian Alliance, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

Mr. Speaker, once again that was a fine speech and contribution to the debate in parliament. I spoke earlier about a hidden agenda, which to me really means a government is trying to accomplish an objective through indirect means.

I will not go back into legislation over the course of the last few years, but the legislation in Bill C-15 in regard to animal cruelty would still make it illegal to have pheasants in captivity and release them into a cornfield for the purposes of hunting. There is no difference between hunting a pheasant that has been released and one that happens to just walk by in the cornfield.

We have the issues of the cost of federal and provincial licences with regard to hunting, the cost of registering firearms, the cost of getting permits to possess the firearms, the cost of driving out to a hunting area and the cost of having some food and whatever else. It is becoming such a hassle to be a hunter and, as a result, we find many people are no longer taking up the sport because of all these impediments.

The hidden agenda of the anti-hunting and animal rights lobby group, which the government listened to with the legislation, is to stop any use of animals by humans for food. They are trying to totally disarm Canadians because as people give up hunting they do not have a need for firearms and do not want to spend money for a licence.

Bill C-15 is one more step in the hidden agenda of disarming the Canadian population by making it illegal to hunt captive animals. The definition of animals will possibly allow for the prosecution of a farmer who does a normal thing like putting an ear tag in a cow because it requires punching a hole in the ear which causes a moment of pain.

Could the hon. member comment on that and, in particular, does he believe there is a hidden agenda in the bill?

[Deepak Obhrai, Canadian Alliance, Calgary East, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I will to illustrate a point. My colleague is from a rural community. He knows the impact of this bill. I am from an urban community. I do not know about tagging cows' ears, branding or anything like that. My colleague knows these things.

If this omnibus bill was broken down, we then would have an opportunity to discuss the points he is talking about; the fees, the hunting issues, et cetera.

Right now what do we discuss? Do we discuss Internet child pornography and how tough it will be or are we going to discuss animal cruelty issues, knowing the tugs, the pulls and the different views between the urban and rural communities in Canada? They all need to have input in this bill. However, this is an omnibus bill and, yes, it has a hidden agenda.

As I said in my speech, this has been designed by the bureaucrats in a way that they feel is important, perhaps under the pressure of 10 or 15 NGOs or self-lobbying interest groups, but they have not heard from all Canadians.

The Canadian voice is this parliament. That is what democracy is. If we look around the House, there are members from rural and urban communities. That is exactly the voice we need for balanced legislation that takes into account the interest of every Canadian.

My colleague is absolutely right. There is a hidden agenda which was designed by bureaucrats and put before us without regard to all the debate on the issues.

[Roy H. Bailey, Canadian Alliance, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Mr. Speaker, we have a big industry in Saskatchewan which is sponsored by the largest conservationist group that I know of, and that is the Saskatchewan Wildlife Federation. That organization is irate with the bill.

One reason for that is that it hatches and releases thousands of pheasants. This bill and the animal rights people want to stop that. They want to deny us the pheasant under glass, which I enjoy. They want to deny us hunting. They want to stop all the ways in which people have enjoyed this heritage and tradition. This bill will destroy that.

As a member of parliament, I want to preserve the heritage of the east and west coast fisheries and so on. However, I am also very concerned about preserving my own heritage. This bill destroys it.

Could the hon. member comment on this because the destruction of our heritage is a national issue?

[Deepak Obhrai, Canadian Alliance, Calgary East, AB]

Mr. Speaker, as usual my colleague illustrated with eloquence the problems of the bill, and that is lumping animal cruelty with child pornography on the Internet. How are these connected? Only the government and its bureaucrats are able to understand the connection. However, he raises some points and would like to debate those.

The hon. member pointed out the flaws in the animal cruelty section. He pointed out that there were few opportunities to discuss these things. He would like to vote against it because he wants to preserve the heritage. That is important for him. It is his democratic right to oppose it. However, he wants to support the child pornography laws because he feels they are very important. He has no idea which way to go. That is what is wrong with the bill.

I will finish by saying this it amazes me. The Liberals were the opposition. They know the importance of opposition. They have been here since 1988.

[An hon. member]

Since 1967.

[Deepak Obhrai, Canadian Alliance, Calgary East, AB]

I mean this crowd and the current Prime Minister.

They know how important it is for the opposition to hold the government accountable. Perhaps somewhere down the line they will understand. If not, hopefully they will be back in the opposition very quickly.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Speaker, before commenting on Bill C-15, I would like to remind the House of the geographic situation of my riding of Argenteuil--Papineau--Mirabel, which is the only riding located between two metropolitan communities, those being Montreal and the Outaouais, further to the west.

Fifty per cent of the riding is farmland, and 50% is covered by forests, mountains and lakes. We may therefore consider ourselves to be part of the refrigerator for the urban sector of Montreal and the Outaouais and, at the same time, the playground for these same sectors.

We therefore understand that a bill such as Bill C-15 has a direct impact on us, not because we are not aware that it could and will address some very important problems.

When we talk about child pornography, the sexual exploitation of children, home invasions, and creating an offence for disarming, or attempting to disarm, a peace officer, we can only be in favour of this part of the bill.

This is an omnibus bill. To use a more down to earth term for those who are listening to us, it is a “catch-all”. In other words, the same document includes amendments that are all very important, taken individually, but when lumped together into one document, can lead to great confusion. That is what we are trying to get across to the Liberal members, to the ministers and to the Prime Minister.

What we are saying is that, as far as animal cruelty is concerned, we have some serious problems with the definition of the term “animal” and the definition of what constitutes cruelty to animals.

So that everyone will understand properly, the definition is a broad one, and reads this way:

“animal” means a vertebrate, other than a human being, and any other animal that has the capacity to feel pain

The term animal is used in order to focus the bill, and as well offences are created which involve prison sentences. The list of offences reads as follows:

182.2 (1) Every one commits an offence who...

c) kills an animal without lawful excuse;

d) without lawful excuse, poisons an animal, places poison in such a position that it may easily be consumed by an animal...

For the farmers of Argenteuil--Papineau--Mirabel, this is a far too broad definition and a category of offences which makes the mere act of being a farmer and raising animals for meat liable to lead to criminal charges.

This does not include vermin. If a farmer has a large amount of land, if he is lucky enough to have it, then there will be vermin, rodents. If a person wants to get rid of them, he might be accused of a criminal act.

This has led a number of the hon. members who have spoken against this bill in this House to say that, while favourable to a large part of this bill, there is the whole matter of animal cruelty. It would therefore be advisable for this matter to be referred to committee, where it can be discussed so that no farmer in my riding, or anywhere in Quebec or in Canada, is liable to be charged for earning a living in the most honourable activity of farming.

We could add to this that the hunting and fishing associations dotting our province--I repeat, we are part of the Montreal metropolitan and the Outaouais metropolitan communities--have suffered serious indirect effects in connection with amendments, gun registration and so on.

In addition, hunters and fishers merely enjoying their sport, fishing and killing a fish without a legitimate excuse, or letting it live, not killing it directly or immediately, could be liable to face immediate criminal proceedings.

Obviously, the government will understand that this situation, this “catch-all” bill as I have named it, includes a variety of laws, that are quite acceptable. The people of the riding of Argenteuil--Papineau--Mirabel agree with changes to the provisions on protecting children against sexual exploitation, protecting children against sexual harassment, additional protection that would make those who disarm peace officers liable to face greater penalty, or protection against home invasions.

The people of Argenteuil--Papineau--Mirabel would support, they would pass a bill on this, and on their behalf, I would be prepared to pass such a bill. However, as far as we are concerned, the whole matter of cruelty to animals should not be included in the same bill. Protection of children against sexual harassment and cruelty to animals are two matters that must be totally separate. The bill must be divided, split.