House of Commons Hansard #3 of the 37th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was destruction.

Topics

IraqGovernment Orders

10:40 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—St. Clair, ON

Mr. Speaker, I want to echo the sentiments of a number of speakers this evening and last evening in recognizing the importance of the opportunity we have been given to debate this issue around the current situation in Iraq and the response that the international community should have to that situation.

Let me begin by saying that I have sat in the House both evenings and have been very concerned about some of the rhetoric that has taken place in the House, of which we have heard more this evening, some of which is out there in the world. There is just way too much willingness to talk about war and the use of war.

If we truly believe that human life is sacred, then the decision to wage war must be made only as an absolute last resort. It is not something to be played with.

I suggest that members of the House should think about what they are saying when they advocate the use of war. They should listen to themselves. They said the same things when the U.S. went into Vietnam.

Let us talk about both of those situations, not just the second world war but the mess that the west ended up in because of what the U.S. did in Vietnam. Let us talk specifically about the gulf war in which 100,000 people died, 35,000 of whom were civilians.

Since the gulf war, sanctions that were imposed after the war have resulted in somewhere between a half a million and a million civilians dying in Iraq from starvation and the lack of medicine. We cannot fall into that trap.

Some of the comments we have heard from Nelson Mandela have been very interesting and very educational. This is a man who has every right to be bitter at the way his country treated him. I think it is very important that we listen to some of the comments he has made. He has directed these comments to the United States specifically and, more generally I believe, to the west. He has talked about how appalled he was with the talk and the rhetoric about the invasion of independent countries. He has accused the U.S. of being the greatest threat to stability and security.

Those are harsh words and, quite frankly, they may not be totally fair, but it is a signal from that great man, who we honoured here just a year ago, that again we should be careful about how we speak about the use of war and how we act when we head down that road.

I want to speak specifically about the consequences of the invasion of Iraq. I had a very personal experience in this regard. This past summer while the House was in recess I had the opportunity to attend a banquet where the local Chaldean Church was being dedicated. It is the first one in Canada. The Chaldean sect is from Iraq, mainly centred in Baghdad.

I sat that evening with the bishop of that church, who told me about his experiences in the gulf war and about being in Baghdad one evening when the bombing was going on. He was in his church when several bombs fell nearby, destroying buildings and, of course more important, killing many of his neighbours and close friends who lived in the neighbourhood. He then explained the type of work that church has been doing in Baghdad to deal with the sanctions and told me about the number of people they are feeding. He finished by giving me what I think was a caution about what he felt would happen to those women, men and children they were feeding if Baghdad were bombed again. It was very personal.

We have to stop and think. What role does Canada have to play? In some of the speeches we have heard that gung-ho, macho attitude of “let us get in there and support whoever the allies are”, whether it is the U.S. by itself or with England. It is a joke. It is easy for us as parliamentarians in Canada to talk that way because we know we have very little capability in terms of deploying military power. That is a shame. We have to correct it, but that is the reality of what we have now.

It is easy to talk that way when we know there is hardly anything we can do about it. But what we can do, as we have so often in the past, as our diplomats and leaders historically have so often done, is seek out diplomatic, creative solutions to those types of world problems that Iraq now represents for us. I listened to some of the speeches in which parliamentarians suggested that there is no other choice, that we all know what Saddam Hussein is and there is only one thing we can do. I could not help but think that this lack of hope, this lack of creativity in how to deal with that monster, is not in keeping with the Canadian tradition.

I thought about another hot spot in another country, Sri Lanka. As recently as a few months ago, people were saying the same thing about that country, that there was nothing we could do and no solution, that we would have to use some type of military force. In fact, Norway, in its peacekeeping efforts, just kept plugging away at it using whatever diplomatic suasion it could. To give Canada its due, we have been in there too. There have been 60,000 people killed there in the last 20 years and that issue now appears to be resolving itself without further violence.

There are times when we can use creative thinking and creative action to solve those problems short of war. That is what we must do now. We must rely on the rule of law. We must allow those inspectors to get into Baghdad, to get into Iraq and to do their jobs. The talk of war must cease until we see those results. We must not demean their work, as I have heard many speakers do, but let them do the jobs that they know how to do. Only then do we decide what further steps may be necessary in order to deal with the issues that confront us from Iraq.

Again, we have to tone down the rhetoric. We have to let the rule of law apply. We have to let Canadian diplomacy work creatively and, hopefully, for the sake of the world, successfully.

IraqGovernment Orders

10:50 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Jason Kenney Canadian Alliance Calgary Southeast, AB

Mr. Speaker, I regard my colleague from Windsor--St. Clair as a thoughtful member. I know that his objection to war on principle is heartfelt. I would only hope that he would grant some consideration to those of us who believe that at some point action may have to be taken to ensure that Saddam Hussein is not able to completely destabilize the Middle East and threaten millions of innocent lives. To suggest that those such as myself who take that position are somehow indifferent to the horrific consequences of war is just as irresponsible, I think, as if I were to suggest that his position is somehow unpatriotic or cowardly. I do not feel that way. I think his position is conscientious.

I really think he should contemplate whether he wants to paint with such a brush, or whether he wants to disregard, all of those who believe that some sort of military action may regrettably be necessary in situations such as this as though they are thoughtless, unthinking, unfeeling warmongers. That is an unfair and inaccurate characterization.

I would simply ask him this. He has called for us to use diplomatic means, to be imaginative and so on. The United Nations and the world have waited for ten years now for diplomatic and political solutions to work, for three rounds of weapons inspectors, sixteen United Nations Security Council resolutions, and an armistice following a war that was provoked by Mr. Hussein's military aggression. Ten years, sixteen resolutions and we continue to wait.

Suppose we go back and send in yet another team of inspectors that gets exactly the same response, which is a lack of cooperation from the Iraqis and off limits in the eight enormous so-called presidential compounds where many of these weapons are likely being kept. What then does he propose? That we continue to talk for another ten years and pass another sixteen resolutions? At which point, and I think this is a fair question, does he believe, if ever, that action must be taken, that words must stop and action must start? At what point does he believe the integrity of international institutions like the United Nations is jeopardized by inaction?

IraqGovernment Orders

10:55 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—St. Clair, ON

Mr. Speaker, that, in terms of both the comments and the questions, is almost impossible to answer in the two minutes I have left.

Let me just say this about the over-defensiveness, perhaps, of my colleague from the Alliance. We have to tone down the rhetoric. We have to stop prejudging what is going to happen and throw out the hypotheticals. So the inspectors go back and they find one small gram of chemical-biological warfare material: Does the hon. member want me to answer that in fact we should go in and bomb Baghdad? No, we should not. He cannot give me the reality. Until we get the reality we should not be prejudging and presuming we are going to have to use military force, because if we start from that vantage point we will in fact use military force.

IraqGovernment Orders

10:55 p.m.

Liberal

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the hon. member a question. I was quite impressed by his thoughtful consideration in his speech.

Does the hon. member have a response or has he thought about something that I have noticed? I may be wrong in my perception, but yesterday's heroes are today's monsters. Are we creating sort of a Frankenstein syndrome here? Iraq, we know, was very active against Iran. Where did Iraq get the weapons of chemical and biological warfare to do that? The Taliban was created in order to get rid of the great Communist scourge when Russia was within Afghanistan and today the Taliban are monsters.

Does he see a pattern here? Does he feel that manipulative interests in other countries' “democratic institutions” or non-democratic institutions can lead to a sort of Frankenstein syndrome?

IraqGovernment Orders

10:55 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—St. Clair, ON

Mr. Speaker, the simple answer of course would be yes. We can extend the examples to any number of other cases. Do we still criticize Germany for using mustard gas in the first world war? Do we attack the United States because it was the first one, the only one, to use nuclear bombs? The examples go on and on.

We know as recently as this week from information released that in fact some of the chemical weapons Hussein had at one point came directly from the United States. Do we look at them and point our guns at them? Obviously not.

IraqGovernment Orders

10:55 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I know the observation will be made that there is now a break in the rotation here. That having been said, I am satisfied that I understand there has been some arrangement made. The hon. member for Winnipeg--Transcona will be taking a slot that would normally go the governing party.

IraqGovernment Orders

10:55 p.m.

NDP

Bill Blaikie NDP Winnipeg—Transcona, MB

Mr. Speaker, tonight I want to talk about a subtext of the debate going on in this country about Canada's possible participation in any military action against Iraq. The underlying debate has to do with Canadian sovereignty and whether or not we really actually can or are permitted to have an independent foreign policy when our American friends are dead set on a certain course of action and see Canadian support as a test of our friendship.

I will say more about this later, but first I want to say that I come to this debate not from a pacifist perspective or from an anti-military perspective, as is sometimes suggested by those who disagree with the NDP on such issues. Indeed, I am one of the few members in this place with any military service, in this case in the militia, and I have a great deal of respect for those who put their lives on the line on an ongoing basis in the Canadian armed forces.

I do believe that force is sometimes justified. I believe that the UN should have something like a permanent standing army, ready to enforce its will when necessary. I regret the weakness of the United Nations, and I regret the role that the United States has played in making and keeping the United Nations weak. Only a weak UN would have to consider contracting out the enforcement of its resolutions, as is now the case.

What I do not believe is that force is justified in this case, for a variety of reasons. It is not justified because there is now an opportunity, arguably because of the threat of force, but an opportunity nevertheless real, for weapons inspectors to return to Iraq and complete the work they began several years ago. We need to trust the competency of Hans Blix, who seems to feel that the upcoming inspections now agreed upon will be meaningful, and to trust the judgment of Mr. Scott Ritter, a former weapons inspector, who has testified, as I understand, to the effect that there is no urgency that would justify not letting this new opportunity for weapons inspections be exploited. A new resolution at the UN seems unnecessary at this point.

The apparent eagerness of the U.S. administration for a war with Iraq is a source of great concern to many Canadians. They know that wars, even against bad men and bad regimes like Saddam Hussein's, are not always fought for the best of reasons. They know that today's bad guy was often yesterday's good guy. They know that economic interests are often at play. They know that domestic political interests are often at play, and they may also sense in this case, in the post-September 11 context, that our American neighbours may be acting out of a collective consciousness that we just simply cannot be expected to share, even though Canadians were killed on September 11. And of course, there is still no active claim that Iraq is connected to the events of September 11.

Whatever the combination of reasons, it now appears that the U.S. is determined to create the context for justifying an attack on Iraq in the near future. What should Canada's response be? That is the question. But the underlying question is whether Canada has any choice in the matter. It may be okay to take a different position than the United States on Kyoto or the International Criminal Court or the landmines treaty, but when it comes to Iraq the argument is often heard that given U.S. vehemence on this issue we have no choice, that it would not be in our best interests to not participate.

This line of argument was quite prevalent in a debate that I was part of recently, sponsored by TVO, which took place in Calgary. The argument seemed to be that our economy was so integrated with that of the United States that we would be at great economic risk if the Americans decided to punish us for lack of conformity to their view of this particular situation. This is exactly what those of us who fought the free trade agreement feared: that with integration would come a loss of political freedom. That day seems to have arrived, and it is this that Canadians should be also concerned about. For if we have no choice economically, then what kind of country are we? There may be situations in which one does not have a choice, morally speaking. That is different. But economic arguments for Canadian acquiescence raise a different set of questions.

Finally, I believe that all of us who subscribe to multilateral global solutions to problems have to devote ourselves to the reform of the United Nations. It has such a diversity of weaknesses at the moment that no matter what one's point of view one is able to identify some reason why UN resolutions that one does not support should not be enforced while resolutions that one does like should be enforced.

It is common to cite UN resolutions on the occupied territories at this point but my point is this. Two wrongs do not make a right and some day we must have a UN with greater democratic and moral legitimacy with an independent capacity for enforcement that no country will be able to ignore.

I wish the government much wisdom in charting a course that is respectful of international law, of Canadian sovereignty and of the need not to sign on to the new American doctrine enunciated by President Bush on September 20. This doctrine effectively ended any pretence that the rules which obtained for decades after World War II are any longer valid. From now on the United States has taken onto itself the role of global arbiter of what regime survives and what regime does not, of who is pre-emptively hit and who is not. If the UN goes along, fine, but if it does not, it happens anyway.

This is not the world the distinguished Canadian diplomats and politicians like Lester Pearson set out to create. It is not a world that the current Liberal government should go into without raging against the dying of the light.

IraqGovernment Orders

11 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Mr. Speaker, first I would like to make a comment. The Prime Minister has made it quite clear that while this government is in place Canada will make its own decisions. We have always made our own decisions and I do not think we have ever made the decision to go into war on the exact same date as the United States.

That being said, often we share a common interest. When we have people who share a lot of common values, freedom and democracy, and share a border it makes sense to trade and it makes sense to be good partners in that way.

I agree with a lot of things the member said. I think a lot of the parties in the House and other people agree that we should definitely give peace every opportunity. We want to fight through as many diplomatic channels as we can. We want the weapons inspectors to go in. We do not want unilateral action by one country. We would like multilateral action by the United States.

However, if it comes to the same situation as it did the last time, where Iraq would not let the inspectors in, by stalling them, firing gunshots in the air and doing everything possible, including the development of mobile labs, and the United Nations passed a resolution in the Security Council for military intervention, would the member agree that Canada should join it?

IraqGovernment Orders

11:05 p.m.

NDP

Bill Blaikie NDP Winnipeg—Transcona, MB

Mr. Speaker, the Liberals do not like to answer hypothetical questions any more than I like to.

Obviously, it would be of great concern to all of us if it turned out that the current opportunity for a renewed weapons inspection, providing that weapons inspection happened in good faith and did not become, as has been admitted in the past, an opportunity for other agendas to be served beyond what was necessary in terms of a weapons inspection and if the Iraqi offer turned out to be a false one and there was a need for access to sites that was denied, then that would something that would have to be demonstrated and a judgment would have to be made in that context whenever that situation arrived. Obviously, my hope is that the situation will not arise and that we will not have to deal with that.

I am concerned that we may not even create the opportunity for that context to arrive, either in a negative or a positive way, because of the determination, it seems to me, of the current administration in Washington to act before we have an opportunity to make that determination. Our concern here tonight is that there is a stubbornness of will there, which is actually contrary to the rhetoric and which talks about the risk to the world of allowing Saddam Hussein to continue any longer in the current context. The real risk is not giving this new opportunity for a weapons inspection a chance.

IraqGovernment Orders

11:05 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Jason Kenney Canadian Alliance Calgary Southeast, AB

Mr. Speaker, I have a lot of respect for this member, and we all do. However this is a motion dealing with a situation in Iraq not a critique of American foreign policy. I really regret the fact that he focused his remarks almost exclusively on his critique of American foreign policy and not the situation in Iraq.

I do not believe personally, like he has implied, that the American interest in this is to simply expand its global hegemony over all parts of the world. I actually happen to be seriously concerned that if Saddam Hussein gets his hands on even a rudimentary nuclear warhead and affixes it to a Scud missile, this is not some bizarre space age hypothesis but it is a concrete possibility, that he could then hold hostage the entire world in a sense.

He has indicated, and I take him at his word and I wonder if the member does, that if he had the capacity he would wipe out half of Israel. I think he said the Zionist entity.

Is the member not at all concerned that, or he certainly did not express his concern, that if we allow him to obfuscate for too long and he gets his hands on a weapon of this nature, it will then be too late to stop him?

IraqGovernment Orders

11:05 p.m.

NDP

Bill Blaikie NDP Winnipeg—Transcona, MB

Mr. Speaker, I think this is a fundamental difference between the member and I. He thinks somehow that we can have a debate about Iraq without having a debate about American foreign policy. Obviously what is going on with respect to Iraq is intimately related to American foreign policy. It is a policy of the United States with respect to a particular foreign country called Iraq that we are debating here tonight. It is quite clearly a matter of American foreign policy.

As for the various statements that Saddam Hussein may or may not have made, I take the hon. member at his word. If we were to bomb everybody who ever said they wanted to do something there would be an awful lot of bombing going on in the world

I take my view from this I suppose as someone who grew up in the post-war world when there were lots of grounds, given the grounds that the member has indicated are valid tonight, for going to war against the former Soviet Union but we did not because we thought that the risk of doing that was too great.

I am not a fan of the doctrine of mutual assured destruction and I do not think that is the situation that we are in anyway with respect to Iraq because I believe the evidence that has been put forward so far by people who have been on the ground that it is not in that kind of situation. Therefore, we should take advantage of the opportunity to ensure, in a peaceable way, that it never actually has that capacity.

It is not oranges and apples here. I do not believe we are in the situation that the member describes so it really is a case of what one believes the objective conditions are. If one believes in a different set of objective conditions, one might come to different conclusions.

My analysis of the objective conditions at this moment is that there is not sufficient evidence that we are in the situation the member describes and that therefore, given all the other factors, we should take every opportunity to ensure that we never arrive at the situation the member describes by taking advantage of the opportunity for a new weapons inspection protocol now available.

IraqGovernment Orders

11:10 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Inky Mark Canadian Alliance Dauphin—Swan River, MB

Mr. Speaker, I want to take part in this very important debate tonight on Iraq because of the potential for putting Canadians in harm's way.

Debate in this House of the people has been a part of our political history anytime this country has gone to war. Having listened to much of this debate over the past several evenings, I would like to present the point of view found in my riding of Dauphin--Swan River.

The constituents of Dauphin--Swan River are concerned about the possibility of this country going to war on another front when our troops are not finished with the war against terrorism being fought in Afghanistan. Two points of view have been communicated to me by my constituents.

First, how we can possibly not support the position of President Bush? We have to just look at our economy which is closely tied to our American neighbour. We share a common border, the longest undefended border in the world. We are the best of friends. Our economy is dependent on the American marketplace. In fact, 80% of the products we produce are shipped south. We share many of the same democratic values. Over a billion dollars daily of trade moves north and south from B.C. to P.E.I.

Constituents who share this view support following the direction of President Bush. These constituents feel it would be seen as a betrayal to our friendship to not support President Bush and would let Saddam Hussein continue his bullying of the world community.

The other point of view shared by the majority of people of Dauphin--Swan River is that, as a member of the world community, Canada must work through the United Nations to resolve all conflicts around the globe. As a country we believe in the rule of law. Our behaviour needs to reflect this principle. These constituents believe that all diplomatic options must be exhausted before the use of force.

Canadians are a peaceful and we live in a peace loving nation. When stirred by a just cause, Canadians are second to none when it comes to defending our nation. Our world record speaks for itself. Canada has never run away from any armed conflict.

This summer I had the opportunity to take part in a cenotaph rededication service in the community of Gilbert Plains, my hometown and the place where I grew up. The people who attended this very important ceremony were reminded of the supreme sacrifice made by the young men and women from the village of Gilbert Plains in both the first world war and the second world war.

We are also reminded of the effect that war has on Canadian families, as we recently witnessed with the loss of lives in our campaign in Afghanistan.

War has also had tragic effects on my life. After the second world war, my family lost everything they owned and were forced to escape from mainland China during the political climate change. Fortunately I was only three years old at the time. Thank God I do not remember a lot of traumatic things that took place at that time.

At this time as a father I am proud to have my son who is currently in the Canadian army go to war to defend this country for a just cause. I am sure most Canadian parents feel the same way as I do this evening.

We need to sort out the real issues in this debate. First, let us talk about Saddam Hussein. Enough has been said about him over the last two evenings to convince most of us in the House and probably in this country that he is not a nice guy. If he were not around, the people of Iraq and the world would certainly be better off. Most of us would agree there is no argument on that point.

The debate now is on how Canada should operate at this time. Should Canada follow blindly the President of the United States and his point of view? Should Canada follow a process as established by the community of the world through the United Nations?

Canada is a sovereign country and can think for itself. We are independent. A strong friendship with the United States should promote differing views. We need only to look at the domestic problems that we experience all the time. Currently we have disputes in the area of agricultural subsidies. We are having a dispute over softwood lumber. These are examples of how we differ in our points of view. We should not look at different views as being weak or disloyal to our American friends. As a sovereign country we need to do what is right for Canada first and foremost.

I want to reiterate some of the most recent developments of this past week. On September 30 the United Nations weapons inspectors began talks with Iraq regarding their return to Baghdad. The discussion began by holding Saddam Hussein to his pledge of unfettered access to suspect sites. Hans Blix, the chief UN inspector, stated that the talks would operate under the assumption that nothing in Iraq, including Saddam's palaces, would be considered off limits to inspectors. A deal was expected to be reached and it was reached yesterday.

Under a new United States resolution which we have been hearing about and expected to be brought to the Security Council soon, inspectors would have access to all sites including the palaces or any other government buildings. They would be protected by security forces during their visit.

The people of Dauphin—Swan River support the use of force only after all diplomatic options have been expended. If and when Canada sends soldiers abroad to participate in any campaign against Iraq, every single diplomatic channel must be exhausted beforehand. All Canadian diplomats need to use all of their contacts to pressure the Iraq regime to cooperate with the United Nations and its weapons inspectors.

A rare effort must be made to follow the directives of the United Nations and Secretary General Kofi Annan in taking action against Iraq. We must ensure that Iraq honours its commitments to ensure unfettered inspections take place and Canada must work with the United States to ensure that all of us work under the auspices of the United Nations.

Finally, rules based diplomacy must remain the centre of international cooperation and conflict. One superpower must not be allowed to change or make up rules as it sees fit. This would be a certain recipe for disaster in the present and the future.

IraqGovernment Orders

11:20 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the member's comments. I think most of us agree with them actually. As the member said, our position is to do everything diplomatically to solve this situation and ultimately only act under international law and multilaterally. Does the Conservative Party have an official position on this situation?

IraqGovernment Orders

11:20 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Inky Mark Canadian Alliance Dauphin—Swan River, MB

Mr. Speaker, the official position of the PC Party of Canada is exactly as I have presented it this evening.

IraqGovernment Orders

11:20 p.m.

Oak Ridges Ontario

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to participate in this discussion this evening.

The issue of Iraq must be seen in the context of a working system of collective security. The problem of security is no longer the concern of an individual state, to be taken care of by armaments and other elements of national power. Security becomes the concern of all states, which will take care collectively of the security of each of them, as though their own security were at stake.

If A threatens B's security, C, D, E, F and G will take measures on behalf of B against A, as though it was threatening them as well as B and vice versa. One for all and all for one is the watchword of collective security. As Bismarck put it to British ambassador Lord Loftus in 1869, according to the latter's report to the British foreign secretary:

If you would only declare that whatever power should wilfully break the peace of Europe, would be looked upon by you as common enemy--we will readily adhere to, and join you in that declaration--and such a course, if supported by other powers, would be the surest guarantee for the peace of Europe.

These words have relevance today in dealing with Iraq. There is no question the government of Saddam Hussein has been a blight on the international community since 1979. His policies of mass murder and use of chemical and biological weapons against the Kurds in the north and the Shiites in the south are well documented.

The United States which once supported Iraq against Iran in the 1980s shifted by the end of the decade and culminated in the actions of Desert Storm. In 1991 the United States sought a multilateral approach to Iraq but could not indefinitely quarantine Iraq. It was naive to think that the broad coalition cobbled together during an unusually perilous moment in 1990-91 would stand as a permanent arrangement. The demographic and economic weight of Iraq and Iran meant that those states were bound to reassert themselves.

The United States has done well in the Persian Gulf by Iraq's brazen revisionism and the Iranian revolution's assault on its neighbours. It has been able to negotiate the terms of the U.S. presence: the positioning of equipment in the oil states, the establishment of a trip wire in Kuwait, and the acceptance of an American troop presence in the Arabian Peninsula at a time when both Iraq and Iran were on a rampage.

As time went by Iraq steadily chipped away at the sanctions that were imposed upon it and the sanctions began to be seen as nothing but an Anglo-American siege of a brutalized Iraqi population. It has been said that the campaign against Saddam Hussein had been waged during a unique moment in the politics of the Arab world. Some Muslim scholars have even suggested that the alliance with foreign states to check the aggression of Iraq was permissible under Islamic law.

The government of Saddam Hussein outlasted the campaign by foreign powers against him. He worked his way into the local order of things. He knew the distress that was created in the region after the 1991 gulf war. All around Iraq the region was poorer; oil prices slumped and the war had been expensive for the oil states that financed it. Oil states suspected they were being overbilled for military services and for weapons they could not afford.

In 1996 Saddam Hussein brazenly sent his squads of assassins into the safe haven that the United States had marked out for the Kurds in northern Iraq after Desert Storm. He sacked that region and executed hundreds who had cast their fate with American power. The U.S. was alone. The two volleys of Tomahawk missiles fired against Iraqi air defence installations had to be launched from U.S. ships in the Persian Gulf and B-52 bombers that flew in from Guam.

The United States had not stayed for the long term. United States officials characterized this episode as an internal Kurdish fight, the doings of a fratricidal people. After the gulf war Iraq was left wounded but not killed. President Clinton had spent his time and his energies on the Israeli-Palestinian issue and had paid scant attention to the Persian Gulf. There was a pattern of half-hearted responses to terrorist attacks.

September 11 changed American policy but regrettably it seems only briefly. In the events before that tragedy the United States under President Bush had retreated into a situation where it took a go-it-alone approach, rejecting international attempts at dealing with issues ranging from chemical weapons to small arms.

After September 11 the United States briefly rediscovered multilateralism and the collective security approach to international terrorism. It lined up states as diverse as Russia, Iran, European states, Malaysia and others in a common cause against terrorism. Now the United States is urging a strike against Iraq. This time there is no broad coalition. Canada and other states have stated that a multilateral approach is key in responding to the issue.

The United Nations was created in part to deal with international crises. Responding to crises through a collective voice is critical to provide legitimacy and weight to actions against Iraq or any other state. The United States cannot plunge the Middle East into a crisis by acting as a vigilante. We know that war is the extension of politics by other means. Is it unreasonable to say that the UN weapons inspectors should have unfettered access to any sites, including Saddam Hussein's presidential palaces?

The facts can be placed before the international community. If weapons of mass destruction are found, then the collective will of the international community can be heard through UN resolutions and possible military action. If the U.S. acts alone against Iraq, why not against another international pariah, such as Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe, the Burmese junta, and the list could go on.

The rule of law must be maintained and adhered to. If we allow the actions of one state to dictate in this case, we will have turned the clock back many years to a time when states acted in their own national self-interest to the peril of others. Canada must continue to support and advocate a multilateral approach to this issue. If the decision is war, then the international community will have spoken clearly. We cannot afford otherwise.

IraqGovernment Orders

11:25 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Jason Kenney Canadian Alliance Calgary Southeast, AB

Mr. Speaker, I find it difficult to grasp the devotion of some members opposite to a slogan of multilateralism without defining what it is. The member seems to imply a connection between international law and an adherence to it. How does he define international law?

Is Iraq's refusal to comply with 16 resolutions of the United Nations Security Council respectful of international law? Does it do any honour to or does it protect the integrity of international law, as he defines it, to not respond? What is the meaning of law if it has no sanctions, if there are no consequences to disregarding it? International institutions, such as the United Nations, which impose certain requirements on countries that habitually ignore them is no law at all. Its entire moral authority is being undermined.

Does he not agree with me that for the United Nations to save its moral authority, to avoid becoming another League of Nations, another useless talking shop, to demonstrate that it actually does have the capacity to solve and not just talk about international crises, it must make clear that there will be consequences?

Further, how does he explain his own government's willingness in 1998 to support quite vigorously what he would characterize as the unilateral American and British bombing of Iraq to seek to enforce it to comply with UN resolutions outside of a specific authorizing resolution of the Security Council? Finally, how does he justify his government's and our military's active support for the attacks of NATO on Kosovo specifically outside of the UN mandate where the Russians offered a veto?

Ultimately, what he is saying is that Russia, for instance, and that great moral giant China, which has a veto on the Security Council, can determine what constitutes international law. That is not consistent with the norms that we as Canadians recognize.

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11:30 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Oak Ridges, ON

Mr. Speaker, I think a multilateral approach to the member's multiple questions might be in order.

First, without giving the member a basic 101 lesson on international law, international law is traced back to the Treaty of Westphalia of 1648. There are certain norms of behaviour in the international community that have been developed over the years. Aggression clearly is not acceptable in the international community. What is important is how states respond to aggression. We saw the failures of aggression that were not responded to with the Japanese in Manchuria in 1931, the Italians in Ethiopia in 1935 which as we know eventually led to the second world war.

In this case, the issue of multilateralism is that there must be a collective approach in dealing with world issues. If we do not have that, what is the point of the UN? Maybe the member opposite is advocating that we close down the United Nations, but the fact is that the United Nations is the forum to bring these issues to.

The United Nations has acted. In 1950 when South Korea was invaded by North Korea, the United Nations responded with a collective voice in a collective action against the invasion by the north. The United Nations responded in 1956 in the Suez crisis. The United Nations responded in the Congo in 1960-61, and the list goes on.

The fact is that no state has that right in my view. I could certainly agree to disagree and I am sure the hon. member would respect my view. If the United States decided that it is Iraq which is one of the axis of evil, and I do not think anybody in the House is suggesting that Saddam Hussein is a boy scout; clearly he needs to be dealt with. However, the question is, what approach should we take in dealing with that individual?

If we use the scenario that Saddam Hussein is eliminated, and I do not know who would take power because the Iraqi opposition is very fragmented, then do we move on to Zimbabwe, Burma, or wherever? Clearly, taking out states individually without a collective approach in my view is folly and is very short-sighted.

Kosovo was a collective--

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11:30 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Order. Resuming debate with the hon. member for Edmonton Centre-East.

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11:30 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Peter Goldring Canadian Alliance Edmonton Centre-East, AB

Mr. Speaker, the main purpose of this important debate is to clarify Canada's position on Iraq and its participation in any conflict involving Iraq.

It is important to remember that Canada's participation in Afghanistan in late 2001 and through 2002, while involving great honour and bravery and the loss of life on the part of our individual soldiers, was not the result of an immediate commitment on the part of the government to assist the United States immediately following the events of September 11.

Many will remember how President Bush did not identify Canada when he thanked those countries that had come immediately to the aid of the United States shortly after September 11. We have seen repeatedly that the closest ally of the United States in the war against terrorism has been Great Britain, while the Canadian government has been a reluctant later participant. One positive outcome of this debate will hopefully be a greater degree of public concern with respect to the government's foot dragging and the dereliction of its duty in the war on terrorism.

On the one hand the government's behaviour has involved reluctant support for our closest ally and trading partner in this time of great need. On the other hand, even if the government were committed to full participation in the war against terrorism, it has only limited assistance to offer. Year after year, both opposition politicians and the general public have tried to motivate the government to make a more substantial and immediate commitment to the revitalization of our defence capabilities. Year after year the government has chosen to balance its budgets on the backs of our armed forces through continued cutbacks and delays.

For example, our helicopters in Afghanistan were a true disgrace, being many years older than those who were flying them and requiring 35 hours of maintenance for each hour in the sky. Their flight capabilities were severely limited in terms of how far they could fly without risk of accident or failure. This situation should have been remedied 15 years ago by replacement helicopters, yet it was not. Liberal politics of the past interfered with Canada's military capability of today. Our troops showed up in Afghanistan in dry lands wearing bright green camouflage which the troops spray-painted beige just to make do.

The government has been warned repeatedly that there will be consequences in terms of its global influence if it depends upon a policy of piggybacking on and borrowing U.S. defence capabilities to defend Canada's own borders. In matters of defence, the government has made Canada the true free rider. Free riders always get dumped eventually since countries will not let themselves be taken advantage of indefinitely.

We wonder how many of Canada's trade disputes with the United States, be they softwood lumber or agriculture subsidies, could be more readily resolved if the government were not seen as riding on the back of the United States in matters of defence.

Throughout the text of the September 30 Speech from the Throne there was much reference to what a great country Canada is and how there are so many social issues to be addressed by further federal spending, but very little indication of the government's financial commitment to enhancing Canada's defence capabilities. When a country is attacked as the United States was attacked, it is very important to know who one's friends are relative to acting decisively against one's enemies. In issues of our mutual interests with the United States, our government has turned Canada into a peacetime, fair-weather friend; a friend who is only there to share in the benefits and the good times but is unwilling to make the commitments and sacrifices that are necessary to overcome the bad times.

One result of our free rider status in defence matters is that Canada now has been described as little more than an afterthought in the United States' North American defence plans. Our government has made our country largely irrelevant. The United States northern command structure has been designed largely without reference to Canada. Could this be because time and again in recent years and months, the government and the Prime Minister have demonstrated that they cannot be counted upon?

Many have been concerned that the new United States missile defence system again has been planned without Canadian input. Why should the United States consult Canada when the current Canadian government has demonstrated that it is not interested in making a significant commitment to the defence of its own country, quite apart from any allied defence commitment?

We are here today to address how Canada will approach the United States' position that a demagogue, Saddam Hussein, must be removed from power.

Some say that Iraq is barely months away from having nuclear capabilities. We know that Iraq already has chemical weapons of mass destruction and that it has used them in the past.

Some may remember the folly of the position of the United States at the time of desert storm. It was the United Nations that determined to let Saddam Hussein go free despite his atrocities in Kuwait. The United States was in a position to topple him 10 years ago but stopped short out of respect for the United Nations position.

This time around it is noteworthy that the United States is not waiting for the direction or the opinion of the United Nations prior to determining to act. As President Bush has said, the actions against the United States on September 11 were an act of war and that the United States would act against both perpetrators of those acts and against those who would harbour or support them.

Iraq is a principal supporter of Islamic terrorism. The Deputy Prime Minister's view at the time was that there was no possible excuse or moral justification for the actions of September 11 and Canadians must demonstrate that they unequivocally support the United States in its actions against terrorism. It is regrettable that our Prime Minister and the government he currently controls do not demonstrate a similar degree of moral conviction.

In terms of Iraq, the Prime Minister's fairly consistent position is that he must see a smoking gun. As far as the Prime Minister is concerned, there was terrorism in Afghanistan but no terrorism in Iraq. The Prime Minister stated his position as follows. The logic of the Prime Minister is illustrated in the recently reported quote from him:

A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven.

The current Minister of Foreign Affairs has stated that before one invades a foreign country there has to be a reason for it. The reason here should be self-evident. Supporters and harbourers of terrorism are no different from the terrorists themselves. Supporters and harbourers of terrorism are complicit in the terrorist acts of war against the United States and must be counted. If we stand on the sidelines, we risk becoming the last Jew in the Berlin of the 1940s, continuing to deny the threat that is self-evident until the enemy is at our door ready to take us to our destruction.

To those who would say to wait until the evidence is crystal clear, I say never again. Terrorist activities by their nature are covert and concealed with terrorists ready to strike at the moment of greatest weakness. Waiting for crystal clear evidence of intent can be far too late. Acting on good intelligence and striking based on a high probability of terrorist action is a prudent response given the current times and also given the lessons of history. Supporting England and the United States, our allies in both war and peace, becomes imperative if we consider ourselves to be national citizens of the free world.

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11:40 p.m.

Liberal

Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to organize my remarks around a series of questions and then proceed in sequence to answer them.

Number one, does the situation in Iraq pose a threat to international peace and security? More particularly, is there a clear and present danger that Saddam Hussein has the intent and the capacity to develop, transfer and use weapons of mass destruction?

Number two, what are the remedies available, political, diplomatic, economic and juridical to counter, contain and address this threat? Again, more particularly, have all the remedies short of military force been exhausted? This has to be a bedrock principle in our approach to appreciating the international and indeed Canadian domestic strategy with respect to Iraq. Have all remedies short of military force been exhausted?

Number three, what has been the experience and what is the status of the United Nations weapons inspection regime?

Number four, what role can and should the United Nations, particularly the UN Security Council now play in countering the Iraq threat?

Number five, does a democratic country like the United States or a coalition of democratic countries have the right to launch a pre-emptive strike against Iraq on the grounds that it constitutes a threat to international peace and security?

Number six, what are the risks involved in the use of military action and what are the risks involved in forgoing military action if all other remedies have been exhausted, short of military action, and we have come to the point where we have to make that decision?

Finally, what is the specific and distinguishable contribution that Canada can make?

I am not sure whether time will permit me to answer these questions, but I will take them now seriatim. I will begin with the first, whether the situation in Iraq poses a threat to international peace and security and in particular, whether there is a clear and present danger that the Saddam Hussein regime has both the intent and capacity to develop, transfer and use weapons of mass destruction.

The record demonstrates that Saddam Hussein has historically constituted a threat to international peace and security, whether one speaks of the acts of genocide against his own people in the Halabja genocide in 1988, the war crimes and crimes against humanity in the war with Iran, the crimes against the peace which has been called, if I may borrow from his own phrase, the mother of all international crimes in the acts of aggression against Kuwait, or in the torture, execution and repression of his own civilians. One could go on and on. The record is clear. The importance of that record is that Saddam Hussein has demonstrated the will and the capacity to commit the most horrific of international crimes.

It is no less clear that Iraq under Saddam Hussein has the intent and the capacity to produce chemical and biological weapons, retains the capacity to produce mass casualty chemical weapons and is on the threshold of acquiring weapons grade material for building nuclear weapons or constructing one on its own.

In other words, if Iraq is not yet a clear and present danger to international peace and security, its intent, coupled with its capacity and the historical record, places us in the position of appreciating that it is certainly in the process of evolving into such a clear and present and imminent danger to international peace and security as well as to regional instability and a threat within the Middle East itself. This leads me to the second question.

Given the remedies available, what can one characterize as the spectrum of remedies that we can identify as having been used and that can be used to contain, to counter and to redress the Iraqi threat?

First there will be political démarche, démarche for member states in the international community on a bilateral level and on a regional level, in particular the League of Arab States to whom the threat to international peace and security involves also, as I indicated, a threat to Middle East peace and security. We know that these démarches, from a political point of view, are being made by the Arab states themselves to Iraq.

Second, there are diplomatic remedies in the form of démarches from the United Nations and its specialized agencies, be it the Atomic Energy Commission or UNSCOM and the weapons inspection regime and the like.

Third are the economic remedies in the form of the economic sanctions.

Finally, interestingly enough, given the overall explosion in international criminal law, there are legal remedies. For example, there is the indictment of Saddam Hussein as a war criminal. It is a remedy however that has not been used, notwithstanding the salutary effects it may have in so indicting him, both with regard to isolating him in the international community as a kind of pariah of such a nature that ought to deter any other states from having any other relationships with him, if not also encouraging an opposition in that regard, not unlike what indictments have done with war criminals in other killing fields.

This brings me to the third point. What has been the experience and the status of the United Nations inspections regime in its relationship with Iraq, both from the beginning of that inspection regime to the present day?

An examination of the evidence demonstrates on the part of Iraq a pattern of obstruction, obfuscation, deception and denial, of accepting inspections without conditions and then imposing conditions, even at gunpoint, so as to obstruct, obfuscate and in fact immunize itself from any inspections regime.

This brings me to the fourth point. What role can and should the UN now play in countering the Iraqi threat given this pattern of obstruction and denial of a Union Nations inspection regime?

First, if there cannot be an agreement obtained between the United Nations inspection regime and Iraq with respect to a full, unfettered and unconditional access to an international inspection regime allowing for inspections anywhere, any time, including for example the presidential palaces of Saddam Hussein which thus far have been immune from inspection but which have been characterized as clearly able to be weapons of mass production factories, then the UN Security Council will have to unequivocally authorize such a weapons inspection regime supported by a chapter VII authority under the UN charter. It is a triggering mechanism whereby any obstruction or obfuscation, deception or denial by Iraq will result in a determination by the United Nations Security Council that such behaviour constitutes a threat to international peace and security and that such a determination will include also the authorization for the use of force under chapter VII in the name of and under the authority of the United Nations Security Council and, in effect, in the name of and under the authority of the community of nations. In effect this will constitute authority for forceable humanitarian intervention.

I prefer to use that approach rather than the terminology or characterization of this as war, not unlike for some of the authority that was given with respect to the NATO intervention in Kosovo. At that time the United Nations determined that the situation in Kosovo was a threat to international peace and security. It triggered a chapter VII authority. From that, NATO inferred that it had specific authority to militarily intervene although that had some questionable authority at the time; it was an inferred and not expressly a specific one. However the UN Security Council could now make this a specific one.

This brings me to the fifth question. Does a democratic country such as the United States, or a coalition of democratic countries, have the right under international law to launch a pre-emptive strike against Iraq on the grounds that Iraq constitutes a threat to international peace and security?

There would be two main sources of legal authority for that kind of strike by the United States or a coalition of democratic states. One would be the Kosovo precedent, that once the United Nations has determined, if it indeed does determine, that the situation in Iraq constitutes a threat to international peace and security but does not expressly subsequently also authorize forcible military intervention, then a coalition of democratic states, following upon the Kosovo precedent, can make, if it wishes, that kind of inference.

However, the situation in Iraq may have to demonstrate that it indeed constitutes such a threat to international peace and security for this first rubric to in fact be legally persuasive.

The second would be article 51 of the United Nations charter, the principle of self-defence against an armed attack. Here one will have to refine in the post-September 11 age, which is what I think the Bush doctrine has been trying to do, that there is such a doctrine of pre-emptive military intervention in anticipation of a threat to international peace and security, if not also a threat to the United States and the other democratic countries specifically.

In my view, neither of those two sources would be legally persuasive, particularly if one could not establish, and one is not yet established, that the United Nations has made a determination that the situation in Iraq constitutes a threat to international peace and security and that the United Nations has also, in light of that determination, arrived at a conclusion that the development, use and transfer by Iraq of weapons of mass destruction constitutes such a clear and present danger that it constitutes an armed attack under article 51 of the charter.

My own view is that until we reach those two points, if we do reach them, then any legal pre-emptive strike by the United States or a coalition of democratic states would not be anchored in an international legal authority.

Finally, because I know I will not have time for the distinguished role that Canada might play, what are the risks involved in using military action or the risks involved in not using military action?

As I address the House it is clear from the evidence that we know that over the past 14 months Iraq has been seeking to buy thousands of specially designed aluminum tubes capable of being used as components of centrifuges to enriched uranium. It is also developing a capacity to use drone aircraft to spray chemical and biological agents. It also appears to be expanding its efforts to enlist terrorists as carriers of weapons of mass destruction.

If indeed those facts can be demonstrated to be true then we can be relatively certain of two conclusions: one, Iraq is determined to not only develop nuclear weapons but the capacity also to deliver them; and second, that it does not yet have that capacity.

This brings us to the third and most difficult and disputed issue and conclusion. How much time do we have before these weapons become operational and is it enough to warrant further efforts short of attack, such as continuing UN inspections and other diplomatic action?

The Bush administration says no, that time is on Iraq's side and that as soon as it develops a nuclear capacity all hope of inspections and diplomacy will be futile. Therefore they seek, at this point, authority for a pre-emptive strike and even will launch it without it.

Others say, and I put myself in that camp, that we have not yet exhausted all the other remedies available, that we have not made the appropriate determinations under international law that would legitimate a pre-emptive strike by the United Nations and that Canada can play a distinguishable role now both in developing United Nations law in that regard and in developing the spectrum of remedies that are still available to us with respect to containing and controlling Saddam Hussein's regime.

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11:55 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Jason Kenney Canadian Alliance Calgary Southeast, AB

Mr. Speaker, several members in the debate have argued that the UN Security Council resolutions vis-à-vis Iraq are analogous to those vis-à-vis Israel. Ergo, it is inappropriate for us to use force to implement the resolutions with respect to Iraq while leaving supposedly unenforced the resolutions with respect to the situation in Israel. Would the member comment on that argument?

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11:55 p.m.

Liberal

Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC

Mr. Speaker, there are a number of fundamental differences. When we talk about Iraq, we are talking about a state that has an historical record of perpetrating the worst of international crimes. When we talk about Israel, we are talking about a democratic state that is seeking, in compliance with international law, to exercise its right of self-defence against the most horrific of terrorist attacks, some of which are even subvented by Iraq, which has been providing subventions to suicide bombers.

Also, the United Nations resolutions of which we are speaking with respect to Iraq are United Nations Security Council resolutions which have fundamental authoritative and binding power under international law, and Iraq has systematically violated all these resolutions.

With respect to Israel, it has complied on the issue of UN Security Council resolutions, in particular resolutions 242 and 338, with respect to conflict resolutions in the Middle East. The issue there has been one with regard to United Nations General Assembly resolutions which have a different authority, both moral and legal, under international law in that regard.

Finally, there have been some issues about the whole relationship with respect to Israel and the United Nations, which our own government has spoken about, including at times the United Nations, by reason of a coalition of undemocratic states binding together and banding together to single out Israel for differential and discriminatory treatment, which they have been able to do under the United Nations General Assembly but not under the UN Security Council.

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Midnight

The Deputy Speaker

In conclusion, let me thank members on both sides of the House for their cooperation.

It being midnight, pursuant to order made earlier this day, the debate is now adjourned.

Pursuant to order made earlier this day, the take-note debate will resume tomorrow evening.

Accordingly, this House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).

(The House adjourned at midnight.)