Debates of Oct. 22nd, 2002

Canada Pension Plan

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

That is certainly not a point of order. It is a point of debate.

[Charles Caccia, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Madam Speaker, the context of this debate is the fact that the Canada pension plan will have a very sizeable investment to manage. I am told that by the year 2012, will be an amount of between $120 billion and $150 billion. This is quite a responsibility. It is understandable therefore that so many colleagues wish to participate in the debate. This is the broad context. In my brief remarks I will talk about how to invest, where to invest, the issue of ethical screening, the issue of return on investments, what people tell us about the CPP, and frequent complaints.

I will begin with the question of how to invest it. There is a unique opportunity for the board to be instituted by way of Bill C-3 to proceed in a rather creative manner in finding ways to establish its long term program by investing in a manner that will facilitate the construction of infrastructures. Examples would include: sewer separation; the rehabilitation of toxic sites; and initiatives that would lead to energy conservation and energy shifts in order to help Canada achieve its Kyoto goals. In other words, a number of investments would have a municipal flavour in relation to water and air quality and also a flavour that would somehow be coordinated with the long term objectives of the Government of Canada in the decades ahead.

On the topic of where to invest, many interventions have been made. We definitely seem to differ in our approach from that of the official opposition. Many of us on the Liberal side feel very strongly that investments should be made in Canada and that they should be intended to facilitate, as I mentioned a moment ago, the long term pursuit of Canadian interests, particularly in relation to air and water quality and the very difficult pursuit of sustainable development.

The issue of ethical screening was raised in the previous session by the member for Regina—Qu'Appelle, whom I congratulate. He and I are on the same wavelength in the sense that an ethical screening procedure ought to be incorporated by the board to be established by this legislation. This screening would ensure that the funds were not allocated to opportunities which are contrary to the public interest, which are contrary to long term goals, be they human rights or be they other very difficult objectives that the government intends to pursue.

On the return on investments, we will see from the record that the debate has been quite intensive. I tend to agree with those who wish to adopt a policy for stable and guaranteed investments rather than investments of a speculative nature. These funds are Canadians' hard-earned savings. Therefore it would be a natural conclusion to recommend that the funds be invested in a manner whereby they would be safe and productive, even if not in a spectacular manner in terms of interest rates, but safe and guaranteed.

My next topic is what people are telling us about the level of Canada pension plan payments. Canadians are increasingly concerned about the erosion of the purchasing power of the dollar, namely the effects of inflation, and it has been kept down to a minimum. Nevertheless, the pensions are less significant today than they were a few years ago. Therefore, the time has come for a revision of the Canada pension plan payment policy so as to allow for higher pensions for those who qualify.

We all know that higher pensions will require greater and larger contributions, which is a burden both to the employee and the employer. Nevertheless, a very strong case can be made that a good, healthy pension scheme, and Canada can say that it has one of the best pension schemes in the world, certainly reinforces social cohesion. Social cohesion is a very important factor these days, namely the ability of operating as a mutually supportive society. The element of the pension level is an important contributor to the cement which binds us together and makes us function every day.

I would argue in favour of a review of the system so as to permit an increase in the level of pension. This cannot be done in isolation. Evidently not only the CPP system will have to be examined, but also old age security and in particular, the guaranteed income supplement, which is a very important instrument in the overall pension policy. That kind of supplement goes to people who do not have a Canada pension to draw from and who can only rely on old age security, if they qualify for it.

It seems to me that the entire pension sector ought to have the attention of the Department of Finance, so ably represented by the parliamentary secretary in this debate, and also HRDC and other departments so as to produce a coherent and constructive long term policy. The time has arrived to do that.

The next item is the frequent complaints in relation to the Canada pension plan. I must repeat the complaint about the five year rule for the acceptance of disability claims. It is a rule that has had its time. It has also damaged potential claimants who have seen their claims rejected. It seems to me that this five year rule needs to be re-examined and possibly changed, let us say, to seven years or perhaps 10 years, so as to permit people who are disabled to make their claim and receive it without being denied.

Another complaint that has been raised in recent times is the delays on the part of the pension appeals board. The pension appeals board is probably understaffed. The claimants who appeal have to wait long periods of time until a decision is made. We have seen cases with waiting periods of up to two years. Obviously this is not good. It also does not compare well to two decades ago when the waiting period was six months at most. There has been some slippage. I submit that this item requires attention on the part of the authorities in charge of the Canada pension plan.

We need to pay close and regular attention to Canada's current pension regime and ensure that our seniors do not live in poverty. This exercise of revision should be a regular one rather than one done at infrequent intervals, as seems to have been the case in the past.

It seems to me that the debate on Bill C-3 and the amendments to the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board Act is a terrific opportunity for all of us to make proposals on how to invest carefully but also in a creative and new manner. Considering the large amount in question, we have everything to gain in investments that will lead to improvements in the health condition of the population and in projects that are oriented toward health and the environment which will improve water and air quality, human condition and ultimately the economic condition of the country.

Clear evidence has emerged in recent years that shows that health and the economy are closely interlinked. Pension funds offer a great occasion to look at opportunities to improve our performance in relation to basic elements such as water and air. I hope the comments made in the course of this debate will help to move in that direction.

[Val Meredith, Canadian Alliance, South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, BC]

Madam Speaker, I am a little distressed after listening to the comments made by the hon. member across the way. My impression is that he sees this large amount of money as another government spending project.

Does he not realize that with the changing demographics in our country that less people will be paying into the pension plan and more people will be taking out of it? If the sole reason for investment is not to make the most return on this pension plan, then there is a great chance that this whole idea of providing for future generations will not be there.

Does he believe that this pension plan should be used for environmental programs, health care and other government spending programs?

[Charles Caccia, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Madam Speaker, I also indicated in my intervention that it will soon be necessary to increase the amount of contributions to be made by the employer and by the employee in relation perhaps to a change in the demographic profile of Canada. If that is done, it will take care of the numbers.

In addition, this is a sizable fund that needs to be invested and there are a variety of ways this can be done. I am sure the Alliance Party, in its creative moments, will come forward with some constructive ideas.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Madam Speaker, I listened carefully to my colleague, who is feeling sorry for pensioners. He believes it might be important for them to have a little bit more money available and so on and so forth. I think he is being inconsistent.

Members will recall that a few years ago there was a surplus in the Canada Pension Plan, especially with regard to federal public servants. The government was very quick to make a grab for this surplus that could have been used to improve these people's pension plan.

I would ask the member whether he does not think it is somewhat inconsistent on his part to state that pensioners should be treated better, have a better pension plan, when at the time that the government could have done just that, it passed legislation to grab the surplus.

Will the new act guarantee that when there is a surplus in this fund, it will not be another case of the plan, the board or indirectly the government, taking the surplus?

[Charles Caccia, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Madam Speaker, from what I know about the bill before us, I can tell my colleague that the answer is no. I am not aware of any such provision in the bill.

As far as my supposed lack of consistency is concerned, it is true that in the House there are sometimes many inconsistencies. I would love to offer my colleagues and yourself, Madam Speaker, the most perfect world.

However, what I am most concerned about for now is that in a few years we will have to put more money into the Canada Pension Plan because of inflation. We have to deal with that too.

[Svend Robinson, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Madam Speaker, first, I want to thank my hon. colleague from Davenport for his comments, but I do not necessarily share in his invitation to the Canadian Alliance to show some creativity in its response to the Canada pension plan. The last time the Canadian Alliance, I think it was then the Reform Party, put forward proposals with respect to the Canada pension plan, it suggested that we turn the whole thing over to the market. Had we accepted the advice of that party, today there would be literally tens of thousands of pensioners in Canada with absolutely no pension whatsoever. I do not think we want to ask those members for ideas about the security of elderly people in the country.

I would like to ask the hon. member a specific question with respect to the Canada pension plan funds. Does he agree that there should be a form of ethical screening in the investment of these funds?

For instance, the Caisse de dépôt et placement has rules to make sure that it does not invest in corrupt countries.

Does the hon. member agree that there should be stricter guidelines to ensure ethical investment? Here particularly I would give the example of the shameful investment by the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board in Talisman oil, Talisman oil which is fueling the bloody civil war in Sudan. Does the hon. member agree that there should be an ethical screen in the investments of this public pension fund?

[Charles Caccia, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Madam Speaker, in my remarks I did include an observation on the importance of including ethical screening. I also paid homage to the hon. member for Regina—Qu'Appelle when he spoke on this bill in the last session. He made an intervention along those lines, in a very learned and much more elaborate manner than I did.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NS]

Madam Speaker, I know my hon. colleague from Davenport would also probably support the idea that any funds invested from the Canada pension plan be invested with the environment as a consideration as well. It would be not just ethical in terms of moral grounds but also a green kind of screening to ensure that companies domestically would not do harm to our environment.

On top of that, when Ken Georgetti left British Columbia to join the Canadian Labour Congress as its president, many people said that B.C. lost its best businessman in many years. He handled a venture labour fund very well and did it with workers and their families in mind.

Would the hon. member agree that this arm's length board, which now handles the funding and direction of the pension plan, should have labour representatives on it to ensure that workers and their families and communities from coast to coast to coast can rest assured that their voices will be heard in the decision making of the investment of that fund?

[Charles Caccia, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Madam Speaker, the Liberal Party to which I belong is the party that gave Canada the Canada pension plan, the old age security, the guaranteed income supplement, the widows' allowances, the child benefits and so on. In other words, it is the Liberal Party that has given Canada a vast array of programs and measures that are the foundation of our social security system.

I am very proud of that fact and I think we on this side of the House are all very proud of our record. We welcome suggestions to improve it, but I must also indicate that our record has been an outstanding one and all we want to achieve now with Bill C-3 is to improve upon it.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NS]

Madam Speaker, as the House knows, the firefighters have asked that they be allowed to put more of their money into their own pension plan, and raise it to 2.33%. Many members of the House have told the firefighters that they support them but yet the government has yet to move on that.

Would the member for Davenport elaborate on what his personal position is on this and when does he think the government will move to meet the request of our beloved firefighters from coast to coast to coast?

[Charles Caccia, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Madam Speaker, I am not in a position to elaborate on that program because I am not sufficiently familiar with it.

[Charlie Penson, Canadian Alliance, Peace River, AB]

Madam Speaker, I am happy to rise today to speak to Bill C-3, an act to amend the Canada Pension Plan Act that has been brought back in this Parliament after Parliament prorogued last spring.

The main thrust of Bill C-3 is to propose a transfer of all amounts held in the Department of Finance within the Canada pension plan account, including the bond portfolio which is worth about $40 billion. It is the transfer to the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board. This transfer would take place over a three year period.

Bill C-3 would establish a means for the transfer of assets between the Department of Finance and the CPP Investment Board so that immediate payout obligations of the plan can be met. The legislation also spells out how the provincial securities currently held in the account may be redeemed or replaced. Lastly, the bill would apply to the Canadian pension plan fund the 30% foreign content limit that applies to registered retirement savings plans and employer and union sponsored pension plans in Canada.

While Bill C-3 is a step in the government's planned development of the public pension plan, managed at arm's length by a crown corporation, the bill is more than a housekeeping bill. The Canadian Alliance is opposed to the Liberal solution of bilking Canadian workers and employers out of billions of dollars to pay for a plan that is unquestionably unfair to younger generations in our society.

The Canada pension plan was devised over 36 years ago by a Liberal government with a noble objective, one which I believe all members then and now can agree on, to provide retirement security to all Canadians and to reduce poverty among seniors. A mandatory pension plan was devised and paid for through equal payroll contributions and deductions from workers and employers.

Back in 1966 Canadians were told that their payroll deductions required to fund the Canada pension plan would never go above 5.5%. However, how times change. When the plan was designed it was assumed that there would be six taxpaying workers for every dependent retiree. Of course, we know that has changed significantly. The member for South Surrey—White Rock—Langley just talked about the changing demographics in our society. Anybody who does not have a plan to deal with that is in for some nasty surprises.

We know that the birth rate in Canada for every two people is 1.2, not even a replacement factor for those people. It will certainly have a major impact on how governments operate and how we will continue to fund retirement savings with a bigger percentage of our society being in the older category and less people in the younger group paying the bills.

From 1966 to 1982, annual Canada pension plan contributions exceeded the plan's annual benefit payouts. The funds were invested in provincial bonds and the plan's assets accumulated to almost $24 billion. Beginning in 1983, however, contributions fell short of benefits. Nevertheless, the interest on the $24 billion was sufficient to keep the overall CPP in surplus for another 10 years. By 1992, the pool of assets had grown to $42 billion.

However, in 1993, the year this current Liberal government took office, was the year that the culmination of contributions and interest could not produce the revenue required to cover the stream of benefits. That was a major turning point. The Canadian pension plan's chief actuary warned that without changes the plan would be in very deep trouble, especially when the baby boomer generation began to reach 65 in about the year 2012.

By 1997 Canada pension plan's assets had fallen to $35.5 billion. During the fall of that year the Liberal government introduced Bill C-2 which was designed to save the Canada pension plan by the only way it knows how to govern: take more money from Canadian taxpayers. We see it over and over again and again this year in the Speech from the Throne.

The Liberal government showed its contempt for Canadian taxpayers and Parliament all at the same time by invoking closure after a mere eight hours of debate on a huge issue that Canadians needed to be concerned about.

Starting in 1998, Canadians saw their take home pay shrink as contribution rates for both employees and employers were jacked up in a series of increases to the Canada pension plan.

Canada pension plan premiums went from 5.5% on the average industrial wage income to 9.4% where it is currently. By 2003 it will be up to 9.9%. That is a staggering 73% increase and the biggest tax grab in Canadian history. What is really scary is that the former chief actuary of the Canada pension plan had suggested during that time that a rate higher than 9.9% was necessary to save the pension plan. However that did not suit the former finance minister's plans for his political career and instead of listening to the chief actuary he had him fired. That solved a lot. I guess what goes around comes around. Eventually the former finance minister met the same fate himself and he was fired.

With more money flowing into the Canada pension plan as a result of these jacked up rates, the plan's total revenue exceeded benefits slightly in 1998 and by 2000 contributions alone were high enough to cover all the benefits. By the end of 2001 Canada pension plan assets were approaching $48 billion. Yet despite extracting all that money from Canadian taxpayers, the Canada pension plan's unfunded liability is estimated to be a whopping $430 billion. Just in case people cannot relate that to what is currently in the plan, the current plan's assets are approaching $48 billion but the liability is $430 billion. It has almost 10 times as much in liability as we have funds to cover it.

The current chief actuary of the Canada pension plan, the one who replaced the one fired by the finance minister, admits that the contributions will once again fall short of benefit payouts but the government is betting on the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board to beat that system. We heard from the member for Burnaby--Douglas that he was concerned about that because the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board had losses when the market went down.

The member for Lanark—Carleton, who spoke before me, also has a big concern with this. Our concern is not so much that there is a Canada Pension Plan Investment Board, it is that government tends to use these boards for political expediency and political operatives. Pressure can be put on these boards to invest in favoured companies that happen to give a lot of money to the governing party of the day, and which maybe the Liberals favour. We know the Quebec pension plan has had difficulty managing its money wisely and it tends to be politically motivated.

The other problem is that in a small market like Canada the huge amount of money has a disproportionate effect on our markets. What does it invest in? At one time Nortel made up 30% of the Toronto Stock Exchange. We know where it is at today and I think the Canada pension plan also knows where it is at because that was one of its major investments at the time, but what else do we invest in if we have to invest in Canada? Even more so, the legislation would restrict the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board to invest 70% of all that it has in Canada. There is a 30% foreign investment rule restriction that ties the hands of the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board.

Employers and the self-employed are feeling the brunt of the Liberal CPP tax grab. The Canadian Federation of Independent Business is currently conducting a letter writing campaign on the subject of the government's job killing payroll taxes. It notes that while employers received a 7¢ reduction in their employment insurance premiums, Canada pension plan premiums went up by 40¢ and they are set to increase another 25¢ in 2003. Everything the employers gained back in the employment insurance premium reductions has been eaten up by Canada pension plan increases.

If the government plans to see the CPP hike through, I would hope that at least it would look at the mangled EI program where revenues far outstrip EI costs and disappear into general revenue.

The worst injustice by the Liberal government and its CPP hike is the intergenerational unfairness. Mr. Ménard admits that every Canadian worker born after 1980 will see their Canada pension plan investment will offer them a 2% return on investment for their retirement. However those who retired in 1995, a different generation, will receive a 9% return on their investment.

What does that say to our young people who are expected to pay the bills? They are expected to pay the bills for our generation's retirement and they will not even have enough for their own as a result of this mismanaged plan. That is totally unfair and it simply will not work. As these young people get into positions of power in government and other places in society they will not accept this. They will throw it off. It seems to me that it would be better to change our plans now than to have a mangled system thrown out down the road in 10 years by the generation that sees this as being totally unfair.

The fact is that the Canada pension plan will take in just under 10% of income to receive 25% after age 65. The average annual payout is $5,500 a year. The best one can hope to receive from CPP is under $9,000 a year.

We talked about how things have changed and are changing in terms of demographics. The number of seniors in Canada will double to 22% of the population by the year 2031. This will place a heavy burden on workers who support pension and health programs.

I am sure that hon. members know if they examine their hearts on this issue that when the young people of today form the majority in this country they will be sorely tempted to change the plan to ensure that they will get some of the benefits that will now only go to the people who are currently in the plan.

The Canadian Alliance does not believe that our future security lies in the wages of a shrinking workforce. Rather, it lies in the vast productivity and production capacity of the economy. We value retirement security as a vital element of independence. The Canadian Alliance policy platform states that we will honour obligations to retired Canadians and those close to retirement under the current state run programs. We will also maintain support for low income seniors. However, and this is a very important distinction, the Canadian Alliance believes that future retirees deserve a greater choice between a government managed pension plan and a mandatory personal plan.

With the objective of giving Canadians greater control of their own affairs and retirement plans, we will eliminate the foreign investment restriction for retirement investments and devise options to allow individuals greater opportunity to save for themselves as we see that the current system failed its original objective from 1966. Times have changed considerably in terms of demographics.

What we are interested in is fairness in the system and a system that will actually work for future generations. That is why we think the Canada pension plan in its current form is failing young Canadians who are coming up. We are concerned that when young Canadians discover this as they become adults and they come into positions of authority, that they will take matters into their own hands and make changes. Instead of waiting for that to happen, let us look forward a little, be proactive and try to devise a plan that works and will work for future Canadians and will respect the demographic change happening in Canada. As I said earlier, we have an aging population.

We hear a lot of chatter from the other side but the fact of the matter is that it is the Liberal government--

[An hon. member]

If you have something to say, say it.

[An hon. member]

Who created that liability?

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

I know we get very excited just before question period but we are not in a question and answer period, we are in debate. If the hon. members wish to ask any questions there will be sufficient time right after the hon. member finishes, 10 minutes of which are for questions and comments. The hon. member has another five minutes left in his speech.

[Charlie Penson, Canadian Alliance, Peace River, AB]

Madam Speaker, it seems we have hit a nerve on the other side. I guess I know why. These are the architects of a failed plan. Not only do they not recognize it is a failed plan, they continue to make the same mistakes over and over again. This is really not anything new.

It does not just deal with the Canada pension plan and Bill C-3. It applies to a whole bunch of sectors. The government is more concerned about looking good with window dressing legislation than it is about addressing serious problems of Canadian society. I would put this in the same class as a number of those other problems that it is not really serious about. It wants to look good but it is not concerned about the young people of the country having a retirement income. Otherwise it would do something about changing this plan to respect young people when they are coming up and ensuring they have the same kind of retirement income that the rest of us have.

It does us all a big disservice not to recognize the changing demographics of the country, the aging population as it is coming forward, and to understand how we will deal with a shrinking workforce paying for the retirement incomes of a lot more people. We must address this issue. It must be taken seriously. We all want to have retirement income when it is our turn, but this current plan will not help in that regard.

My prediction is that in the next few years under this scenario we will have to increase Canada pension plan deductions again, probably up to 15%. That is what the last chief actuary said before he was fired. It may be even more than that. If we are not going to have replacement people coming into our country to replace our population, where will the money come from to provide for this plan?

Other countries are looking at this. It is not just Canada. The United States is looking at the issue. Great Britain has the same problem, maybe even worse in terms of birth rate than we do. Chile has undertaken a major program on pension reform that goes back some 10 to 15 years. It has worked out a system that seems to be working there. It is giving young people an opportunity to invest their income into some pension plans from a diverse group.

Canadians are not well served by this legislation. We will oppose it and hope that something better comes forward to serve young Canadians and their need for retirement income.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance]

Madam Speaker, the hon. member ended on rather a sour note which I am surprised at since all the provinces support it as well as management investment pension board representatives.

There were three areas he mentioned. One was the independence of the board which I have talked about before, which is beyond reproach. There is discussion about the arm's length of the board. It is clearly able to invest in any sectors that it wishes. In fact that again is very clear. It has the full authority to develop a plan and it does.

How is the plan working? It is working rather well. In comparison to others, OMERS as of December 2001 annual returns for selected public sector pension funds was minus 3.4%. Ontario teachers was minus 2.4%. The caisse populaire was minus 5%. CPP was plus 6.2%. That is not a bad record.

The member pointed out the foreign property rule. I point out to the hon. member that foreign property rule strikes a balance to investing in Canada and elsewhere. We have seen some increases in this over the years from the 10% limit of 1971 that has gradually moved forward to the 30% limit of January 2001.

Finally, I personally find offensive to suggest this is a tax grab. First of all, the money will not go into general revenue, it will go into a separate account toward people's pensions, which is what we are all in favour of here, and not to government coffers. The short term economic impact of the increase in CPP has been well known for a long time.

The opposition cannot have it both ways. On the one hand it says we are not properly funding it and therefore the thing will run out and we have done a lousy job. On the other hand we recognized this with our provincial partners and we fixed the problem with the support of the provinces. The opposition now turns around and says the rates are too high. Sometimes in politics it is better to be a listener than a talker and I wish some of the members on the other side would listen to what this legislation says.

Could the member explain to us, if all the provinces and the federal government support this legislation and support the changes, and people in the pension fund management sector support it, how is it that they are all wrong and he is right?

[Charlie Penson, Canadian Alliance, Peace River, AB]

Madam Speaker, there was quite a bit there. The member talked about the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board. The board is appointed by the cabinet of the Liberal government. He talks about its record. My point in talking about Canadian investment is that it cannot exceed the 30% foreign investment limits that we are all governed by.

If the hon. member was listening, my point was that the Canadian market for such a big investment fund is rather a small market. Countries, such as Chile, after about 15 years of having investment by people in their individual RRSPs or in retirement funds, decided that it was too small a country in terms of overall investment and it needed to spread it across investments outside of Chile. That way the risk was not quite so high. If it suffered a major downturn in its economy it was spreading the risk.

It seems to me that when there is $48 billion, and it will rise rapidly, dumped into the Canadian market in terms of where it will be invested, it does limit the ability to spread that risk. That is the point I was making.

In terms of the provinces buying into this, the provinces have benefited quite a bit in the past. There have been low interest loans from the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board that the provinces can still maintain. In fact, the provinces get to roll this whole thing over one more time if they wish in order to buy. That is the rule of the Bill C-3 legislation. Some of the interest rates the provinces are paying, unlike what the member talked about of a 6% return, is more in the range of 1.5% to 2%. The provinces have had a pretty good deal out of the Canada pension plan in the past. Maybe it is not in their interest to change that with these low interest rates.

I would think that the member would want to look at the dynamics of what is happening to our aging population and how we will address the issue of how we will have retirement income for young people in the future. This is the major concern I have and it should also be the concern of the members.

The former chief actuary of the Canada pension plan recognized the problem of having retirement income for our young people in the future. He recognized that the 6% or the 5.8% that was going into the Canada pension plan fund in terms of deductions was not enough and that it had to be raised. In fact, it was raised to 9.9%. The former chief actuary suggested that it still would not be enough and most people agree that it will fall short.

I know the Liberal government is pinning its hopes on the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board to make good investment decisions to make up some of that shortfall.

The member says that the board is at an arm's length from government. Crown corporations are at an arm's length from government and the Export Development Corporation is one of those. In fact, members cannot get information from the EDC because we are told we must go through the minister. Some of their investments are falling pretty flat these days. They are subject to too much political interference or the possibility of political interference on who to invest in.

We all know that the Liberals have some favoured corporations in Canada that have funded some of the campaigns of the major politicians in the House today. The Liberals continue to fund those corporations.

Our concern is that these investments will not necessarily be made with the best interests of Canadians in mind. It might be in the interests of those corporations and the Liberal government. That is our concern.

[Antoine Dubé, Bloc, Lévis-Et-Chutes-De-La-Chaudière, QC]

Madam Speaker, although I do not share some of the member's views, I must admit that I agree with what he had to say about the debate we are having on Bill C-3, namely that because the House was prorogued we have been forced, as it were, to do again what we had already started, a waste of time that could have been avoided if the House had not been prorogued.

One wonders why we had to have a throne speech when several bills still remained to be considered. And last, these bills are being brought back to the House and committee work will have to be done all over again. On this point I agree with the previous speaker.

However, he also mentioned the Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec and the fact that the caisse had problems one year with some of its investments. It is true that there was a drop once, but to my knowledge it has happened only once in over 30 years since the caisse was created; and during all that time it has been making investments and profits. It is extremely profitable.

I would like the member to give us the opportunity to somewhat change his opinion of the Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec. In keeping with his party's ideology, he favours both private and public investments. Is he criticizing the current pension plan? He is critical of the government's position, which we support since, for all intents and purposes, it is the same as what we have in Quebec with the Caisse de dépôt et placement.

I would like the member to tell us what solution his party is advocating to make sure that, at the end of the day, taking into account demography, the demographic deficit and so on, our young people too will able to enjoy a pension. I would like to hear what he has to say about that.

Moreover, as I sit on the Standing Committee on Human Rights, I know that the member is concerned about how little money is being invested abroad. I would like him to reassure me as to what his party's position is regarding ethical investment, that is refraining from investing in businesses around the world when it goes against human rights.

[Charlie Penson, Canadian Alliance, Peace River, AB]

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the member for his question. It is an important one because he asked what we would do.

We tend to look at the model from Chile as one that has worked effectively. Instead of having a government investment board or an arm's-length government investment board individuals are allowed to put money into investment accounts of their own within investment funds, and there are about eight or nine investment funds which have been recognized as having a good record there. Essentially what individuals have is their own retirement investment fund. They are making the decision on what funds to invest in. In terms of whether it is ethical or not, at least the individual will be making that decision rather than government. Individuals will be making the decision on what is an ethical fund and what is an appropriate investment. We would like to empower individuals to do that. We think they will make wise decisions. Therefore it is a model that should be looked at.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

Unfortunately there is not enough time to continue unless the House gives its consent. Does the House give unanimous consent to continue questions and comments?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

I will limit the question and answer period to one minute each. The hon. Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Works and Government Services.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Madam Speaker, I will speak on this later and deal with many of the points. I hope the member will look at my speech later in the day.

I have one simple question. The current Canada pension plan system provides for disability benefits for Canadians who are injured so that they can be cared for. The member's party would like to replace the CPP with a mandatory retirement plan.

In the event that would ever happen, could the member advise the House exactly what he would do to take care of the disability plan for Canadians?