House of Commons Hansard #19 of the 37th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was opposition.

Topics

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:30 a.m.

Liberal

Jacques Saada Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

This House has the right to vote on a committee report, that is our job.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:30 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

John Reynolds Canadian Alliance West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, BC

Madam Speaker, in my 30 years of being in and out of Parliament, I have never seen a flagrant abuse by a Prime Minister such as what happened this morning. It is outrageous. Because of that, I would move:

That the House proceed to orders of the day.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:35 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

The House has heard the terms of the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:35 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:35 a.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:35 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:35 a.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:35 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

All those opposed will please say nay.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:35 a.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:35 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:35 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

Call in the members.

(The House divided on the motion, which was negatived on the following division:)

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:10 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

I declare the motion lost.

We are continuing debate on the motion moved by the hon. member for Peterborough and the amendment moved by the hon. member for Brossard--La Prairie.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:10 a.m.

Progressive Conservative

Rick Borotsik Progressive Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Madam Speaker, we are debating the amendment that has been put forward by the member, the deputy whip of the Liberal Party. We are debating the amendment which obviously flowed from the concurrence motion that came forward from the chairman of the procedure and House affairs committee.

I want the members of the House to recognize that this is simply another expansion of the democratic deficit. What is happening right now is that we have a democratically voted motion that came forward from procedure and House affairs. It said unequivocally that one small little democratic reform was to be put into place in the House. One small democratic reform was nothing more than a secret ballot to elect the chairmen of the standing committees of the House. What a great idea. It came from the committee. It was put forward by the chairman today and now it is being amended to be sent back to the committee for 15 days. One has to ask the question: Why is the government so frightened? What is it so afraid of, to have this motion come forward in concurrence and have a vote in the House? Why must it be put back for 15 days?

I will tell members why. Because on November 7 when the House is under the Standing Orders of the House, the committees will be struck. The first item of business when the committees are struck will be an organizational meeting at which time the chairs and the vice-chairs will be elected. On November 7, which is before that 15 day time period, the Prime Minister's appointees will then be, by a show of hands, elected by those committees. Not only will they be elected by a show of hands, but they will be whipped into voting for that Prime Minister's appointee.

Do the members on that bench not realize that this is the opportunity to stand up and be noticed, not only by the House but by the citizens of this country, as having some backbone and certainly putting into place that democratic reform?

Then the Prime Minister will say that since all of the appointees have already been elected by the show of hands, there is no need for the procedure and House affairs committee to continue with this motion, let us have it changed in the procedure and House affairs committee. How does the Prime Minister do that? By changing the members of the committee. What a wonderful strategy: to go back to the Prime Minister's Office and say “we have total control”. That is what it is all about. It is about control, not about democracy.

Let us talk about some of the items that came forward in a speech just recently about democracy. There is a member of that very government who stood up not that long ago and suggested, number one, that there should be a secret ballot for committee chairs, but he went beyond that. He suggested that there should be change to private members' business as well, that private members' business should be more adapted not only to the members of the opposition, but also to the backbenches of the Liberals.

Private members' business should be taken seriously because, by the way, believe it or not, there are a lot of intelligent people in the House, not only on this side of the House, I will even give credit to that side of the House. A lot of those good ideas should be allowed to come forward, should be allowed to be put on the floor of the House and be voted on the merits of the bill, not on the fact that the Prime Minister's Office or a minister does not like what is coming forward outside of their office. That is what that individual stood and said. That is democracy. By the way, he probably took his blueprint from a white paper, a discussion paper, that we had put forward a number of months previously with respect to democratic reform. He also said that there should be an independent ethics counsellor. Hon. members should go figure. We have been saying that for a long time. That also speaks to democracy.

Today the strategy that is being implemented by the House does not allow any of this free thinking to go forward. I am absolutely frustrated and ashamed to stand in the House and say “Why is it that we cannot put our views forward to the Canadian public on a simple thing like electing a member to the chair?”

I want all Canadians to know right now that the 45 minutes during question period is not the important business of the House. That 45 minutes is simply theatrics. The important business of the House takes place in debate and particularly in debate at committee. I take great pleasure in being able to put forward my views at committee, and yes, even have my views accepted by members of the government because those views in fact do mean something and, yes, I do understand something of the committee that I sit on.

In the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs I would vote on a secret ballot for the current chair of that committee. I would vote for him in a secret ballot because he is the best person for the job. Because he takes his job to heart. Because he understands the portfolio. Because he really is an unbiased chair of that committee. I would vote for him in a secret ballot. I cannot say the same thing for other committees that I sit on, because those appointees do not have the same heart for the committee that other members on that side have.

I strongly believe the person who has the ability should be the chair, not the person who is appointed by the Prime Minister's Office. Under this concurrence motion I would have the right to vote by secret ballot for the person I felt was the best person to be that chair. That person would also be a government member. There is nothing wrong with that. There is a majority, and I am prepared to accept that, yes, he or she could be a government member. I do not have any difficulty with this and the motion speaks to the person being a government member. It has to be a government member. The vice-chair has to be a government member. The second vice-chair can be a member of the opposition, as it is today.

I would like to have the opportunity to put the best person in the job. What is the argument to that? That there has to be regional parity and there has to be gender parity. I would much prefer to see the best person, than to try to change this function to put a person in place who does not have the ability. By the way, the gender parity and the regional parity will work itself out. The government has the right to appoint members to the committee. It can have that balance in committee members. It still has the majority. Why can it not allow the best person to do the job as the chairman?

By the way, the government really has not had a lot of success with parity. There are other ministers who are no longer ministers of the crown simply because they did not have the ability when they were placed in those jobs. There was a minister for CIDA, the solicitor general on a couple of occasions, also the minister for the status of women and multiculturalism. They were put into place because there was a requirement for gender parity, or for that matter regional parity, and it did not work. It does not work any better when they are appointed to the front benches as it does with the chairs of the committees.

The reason why there are many people here debating the issue is that it cuts to the heart of democracy. It cuts to the heart of what we are doing in the House. What it does is simply say “stand up and be heard”. Not only does it say stand up, but it says make sure our voices mean something. It is a complete sham the way it is right now. I will tell hon. members why people do not come back to the House after a number of terms. Because they get frustrated at being what was mentioned by, I believe, the chair of the procedure and House affairs committee: I am not a eunuch. I have to say “thou protest too much”. When a person starts telling people one is not, in most cases one probably is.

The problem is that we need to have impartiality in the chairs of those committees. We must have an individual who is prepared to take his or her agenda forward, not because the minister of the department tells them to but because it is the right thing to do for the standing committee. It could be the Standing Committee on Finance, the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food or the Standing Committee on Health. The chairman has to be the person to take that agenda forward, regardless of whether the minister wants it to happen or not because it is what is best for the House and best for Canadians.

The amendment we are dealing right now with is completely irrelevant. Let the Liberals, the government, vote on the concurrence motion. Let them vote on the issue of a secret ballot for committee chairs. That is all it is. We are not asking for anything else, just that one small step for democracy.

I am going to sit and listen to all of the rationalization and all the justification that comes out the mouths of the people on the other side. They had better make good arguments because Canadians are listening. If they do not tell us the real reason why and they are not going to allow this democratic reform to go forward, then they had better answer to Canadians.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

John Harvard Liberal Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia, MB

Madam Speaker, I am accustomed to bluster and bombast around here but I must say that I find sanctimony rather suffocating.

The hon. member for Brandon--Souris is complaining about the amendment to the motion, which would send this matter back to committee. He somehow thinks that is wrong.

I do not know. Maybe he is arguing that the tyranny of the minority is the right thing to do. The committee is one small portion of the House. We have a larger body called the House of Commons. If the House passes the motion, the amendment to the motion simply says that this matter should go back to committee for further study. Is that somehow anti-democratic? Are we supposed to be held hostage by whatever opinion is brought forward by a standing committee of the House? Come on.

The hon. member raises another matter. He says that all they want to do is put their views forward publicly. What have we been hearing from the opposition members for the last several days? I would think their view has been expressed rather loudly, rather stridently and rather forcefully, and there is nothing wrong with that in a democracy. Please do not tell me that they have not been expressing themselves publicly.

He also says that, under this motion if it were to be passed, all he wants is for members to be allowed to stand up and be heard. Yet this member wants us to vote in secret. On the one hand he says to stand up and be counted, but please let me vote secretly. To me the two do not match.

We were sent here to be accountable. I cannot think of anything more accountable than standing up and voting so that people know exactly how we have voted. I would like to ask the hon. member for Brandon--Souris, if he wants to stand up and be heard, why would he ask to vote secretly so that no one would ever know for sure exactly how he votes?

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:25 a.m.

Progressive Conservative

Rick Borotsik Progressive Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Madam Speaker, I will tell the member exactly why we have to have a secret ballot for the election of chairs of committees. The reason: because of the intimidation that flows from the Prime Minister's Office. That is exactly the reason why. When the PMO decides on the chosen one, and when those people on the government side do not put up their hands to vote for that chosen one, there are dramatic consequences. That is why it has to be a secret ballot. That is why it is the only way that the best individual can be chosen to chair a committee.

Again, I must repeat: The individual chosen will be a member of the government. We are not fighting for opposition here. We are fighting for democracy. Let us have the best person on that committee come forward and be put in the chair. That is why it has to be a secret ballot.

Talk about bombast, Madam Speaker, I am incensed with the member who has just spoken. He now says that this is not a problem, and why would we not send it back to committee? I will tell the House why we should not send it back to committee. Because it was legitimately passed by that committee in the first place.

I ask the member: Why are they afraid to let their own members stand in this House and vote for this concurrence motion from the committee? That is the question that should be asked, not why it is that we are trying to fight for democracy and they are trying to stop it.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:25 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Brian Pallister Canadian Alliance Portage—Lisgar, MB

Madam Speaker, I wish to thank the member for Brandon--Souris for that sincere speech.

The reality of the situation in the House is that there is a growing sense of frustration and it is not exclusively from the members on this side. There is a growing sense of frustration that the ability of all members to function for their constituents and in their constituents' best interests is threatened by the fact that power is excessively concentrated in the hands of the Prime Minister's Office.

This is just one example, but it is a glaring example. A number of members on that side have begun to echo the comments that have been increasingly made by members on this side, that such should not be the case.

However today we see an example of how much the power of the PMO has permeated the culture of the members opposite. We have members rising in their place today, or refusing to rise as the case may be, to express a view that they have expressed outside of the House that Parliament needs to be reformed, and power needs to be given back to the members of the House. The power that is excessively present in the Prime Ministers Office and concentrated there is a threat to our ability to represent our constituents effectively. This is well known and understood.

What the member for Brandon--Souris is expressing very eloquently is the frustration all of us increasingly feel here. He is also responding to the member for Charleswood —St. James—Assiniboia, who has in his own constituency repeatedly talked about the need for members of Parliament to represent the views of their constituents. He has said that there should be more power in the hands of MPs. He now stands in his place and defends a practice that has lessened his own ability.

It is bad enough that we have members in this chamber who would give in to the will of the Prime Minister. I do not know out of what motivation, perhaps a desire for a promotion from a man who will not be in that office at some point in the near future. I am not sure. It is one thing to be afraid of the Prime Minister's Office, it is quite another for that member to stand in his place and contradict his previously held views. What the motivation is I am not sure. Perhaps it is a desire for the majority to continue to have power over a committee. I hope not because that is actually going to have a perverse outcome.

We have a man who is running for the leadership of the party opposite who has proclaimed almost exclusively and has tried to take ownership of his support for parliamentary reform. He has made it his mantra and has said repeatedly in the news media in the country in the last number of weeks and months that he wants to see fundamental reform of this place.

It is not for me to comment on the presence or absence of a member, that I will not do. However I will say that if members were sincere in wanting to fight for parliamentary reform, if it were genuinely something they felt was important they would most certainly be here to publicly express their support for parliamentary reform. They would be here if they genuinely believed in that kind of reform, its necessity and urgency. They would not go out to the media and proclaim their support for such reform and then be absent in this place when they had a genuine opportunity to express in a real way their support for parliamentary reform.

This is just one example of the kinds of fundamental reforms that should take place here and must take place here so that we can genuinely speak for our constituents, so that we can demonstrate our support for their views in committee given the real opportunity we have there.

When members say things outside of the House that are not demonstrated by their behaviour within it then they demonstrate a fundamental weakness. The ability to be elected should not hinge on one playing to the current whims of the public. It should hinge on a sincere desire to fight for changes one believes in. When one does not believe in those changes one is absent from the House when one has the opportunity to express his or her position.

I know the member has served the people of Brandon--Souris in various capacities for a long time. I would like him to talk about his experience as the mayor of Brandon and how the mechanisms that we are espousing today were or were not followed in his administration of the city of Brandon.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:30 a.m.

Progressive Conservative

Rick Borotsik Progressive Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Madam Speaker, I will not take the whole minute because I know the member for Calgary Centre would also like a quick question. I will simply say that I would love to spend some time in the House and talk about how it is much better, more open and transparent in the municipal system than it is in this House.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:30 a.m.

Progressive Conservative

Joe Clark Progressive Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

Madam Speaker, we all know that democracy loses its strength gradually. It rarely occurs in a sudden fell swoop. Does the member for Brandon--Souris feel that one of the first indications of the development of a totalitarian regime is a fear of free votes and an insistence on secret votes?

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:30 a.m.

Progressive Conservative

Rick Borotsik Progressive Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Madam Speaker, very quickly the answer to that is yes. I do not think that any free society should have 100% support for any kind of a model of government. That is exactly where we are heading in this particular regime where in fact all of these members will vote for something they really have no desire to do.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

John Harvard Liberal Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia, MB

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to speak to the motion, which calls for secret votes in selecting chairmen of standing committees. We also have an amendment which, in effect, would send the motion back to the house affairs committee for 15 working days. I can say off the top that I support the amendment.

Let me begin by making an observation about the motion itself. On the surface it appears very attractive. After all, the secret ballot is one of the most hallowed elements of our democratic system. Most people would agree with that. We use it when we select those who will represent us in the federal, provincial and municipal orders of government. We use it when we select leaders of our political parties, and frequently it is used in selecting officers for our professional, labour and voluntary sector organizations.

I guess one could ask: Why would we not extend this principle to members of the House of Commons? As the motion is written, with or without the amendment, we are faced with the possibility of what political theorists term the tyranny of the majority. Simply put, it means that whatever the majority wants becomes law. We should forget about minorities, they do not count.

In this context it could mean that we might end up with a system where all the committee chairs are from Ontario. I have nothing against Ontario or Ontarians. We have 101 Ontarians in our Liberal caucus and they are all great people. However there are some other criteria that we must take into account in this democratic systems of ours. I want to ask my friends across the way in the Alliance, the Conservative Party and in the Bloc, whether they would want to run the risk of facing the tyranny of the majority?

What of our current success in responding to the need to fully include women in important roles? Over the past many years that has become important. Might this go by the boards as well? What of the need to have chairs representing under-represented groups such as aboriginal Canadians and visible minorities? Do they not count when it comes to selecting chairs? Might this too be sacrificed by caving in to the tyranny of the majority? That is a worthwhile question to ask.

I believe that our committee chairs have, to a great extent--

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:30 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:35 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

Order, please. The Chair is finding it very difficult to hear the hon. member. There will be an opportunity later to address the member during questions and comments. I would not like to repeat what I said earlier.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

John Harvard Liberal Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia, MB

Madam Speaker, the system that we have used for now has come under attack. It is not a perfect system. It is false to argue that we are now wanting to continue on with the old system which maintains the prerogative of the Prime Minister's Office to name chairs. We are not fighting about that any more. We are fighting about how we elect chairs.

Let me talk about the old system for a moment. To some extent it has reflected the diversity of Canada reasonably well, at some times better than at others, but it has. For example, at the time the House recently prorogued, there were 12 chairs from Ontario, 2 from Quebec, 3 from Atlantic Canada and 3 from the west. Is that perfect? No, it is not perfect, but we could see that there was an attempt for some regional representation. Of the chairs, 16 were men and 4 were women. That is not a fair representation of gender, but at least we could see there was an attempt in that direction. I am not suggesting this is a perfect reflection, but there is some diversity.

By moving to a system of secret ballots to elect committee chairs, we could be putting all that at risk. What are the risks implicit in reducing the transparency of our procedures in favour of greater secrecy? Once started, where does it lead us? It sounds a bit outrageous, but would we be hearing members of the opposition asking for secret ballots in the House? I do not think so.

I want to talk about the secret ballot because the opposition mixes two points that do not match. Yes, we do have the secret vote in general elections. Why do we have secret votes in general elections? Because at one time, early on in our democratic systems here in Canada and elsewhere, there was concern with an open system that there would be reprisals from the state, or if not from the state then from the powers that be.

It was agreed a long time ago that out of this fear of reprisal from the state that the electors would have the opportunity to cast their ballots in secret. It was the right way to go. All democrats believe in that. However, that principle does not hold when it comes to transacting public business at a standing committee. Electing a chair is public business and the public has a right to know how I vote.

The good constituents of Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia sent me here 14 years ago and they want to know how I vote. They want to know exactly how I transact and how I am involved in the public business. They do not want me voting secretly for chairs of standing committees. That is why I am opposed to the secret ballot when it comes to electing chairs.

The hon. member for Brandon—Souris talked about the open system and how it is flawed because there is intimidation from the Prime Minister's Office. Under the old system there might have been that consideration. There might have been that fear of some intimidation from the Prime Minister's Office. But we are not talking about the old system. We are talking about a new system that will be--

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:35 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:40 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

Order, please. Perhaps some hon. members did not understand what I said in English, so I will repeat it. There will be an opportunity later if any members wish to address questions and comments to the member.

It is very difficult for the Chair to hear if an hon. member is using unparliamentary language.

I would ask hon. members to hold their questions and comments for later.

The hon. member for Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia.