House of Commons Hansard #29 of the 37th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was vote.

Topics

Parliamentary ReformGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Val Meredith Canadian Alliance South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, BC

Mr. Speaker, I will add that the Americans do not have a perfect system. There are things that they have that I do not particularly like. However they have the ability for these committees to reach beyond the control of the executive branch. They can hold the executive branch and the bureaucrats, who administer the laws that have been created, accountable.

Our committees cannot do that because of the control of the administrative branch. That is one thing we could look at. It would provide a much greater independence from the executive branch of government. It would not get away from the parliamentary system as we know it. It would only enhance it and make it possible for members of parliament, not only from the opposition side but from the government side as well, to make meaningful changes to legislation.

I am distressed that the executive branch of government seems to hold more weight and give more credence to the bureaucrats than they do to the legislators. My understanding of the system is the legislators make the law, the executive branch and the bureaucrats administer the law. Unfortunately, we have completely gone away from that concept of parliamentary democracy.

After 130-odd years it is time that we start looking at our system and see what is required to modernize it and bring it into the 21st century.

As an outside point, I believe we are one of the few democracies, even countries that we do not consider as democratic, to still not elect senators. I do not think there is another nation in the world that appoints somebody to a legislative body. It is time that Canada grew up, modernized and started electing the senators who sit in the upper House.

Parliamentary ReformGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

Clifford Lincoln Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am going to be splitting my time with my colleague from Scarborough—Rouge River.

I have been in politics for close to 20 years, either provincially or federally. I have taken part in many votes, hundreds of them. Unfortunately, I have had to vote on several occasions against the government of the day. I did not take any pleasure in doing so. I did it out of a sense of obligation, as my conscience and convictions dictated a vote against the government.

I have always felt that our system was very rigid, considering votes something sacrosanct. This is a system that must be changed, that absolutely must be reformed.

I believe that confidence votes should be an exception to the rule, and not the rule. Free votes, on the other hand, should be the rule, not the exception.

There are all sorts of models of government that distinguish between votes of confidence, which are the exception, and free votes where parliamentarians feel totally comfortable to vote as they please.

It is essential that we examine this system, that we follow the British practice for instance, in order to let parliamentarians have greater flexibility in voting according to their conscience and convictions. The proposed model would go even further than the one we have now, to make parliamentarians accountable to the voters.

It seems to me that each of us is responsible to their voters for making clear what our positions are on issues brought before Parliament. Our voting record is important in that sense. As parliamentarians, for most votes, we should not be allowed to hide behind the party line.

I would also like to address the issue of private legislation, the bills that members may bring before Parliament. This is a monumental joke. During the nine years I have been here, I worked on many bills, two of which were drawn in the lottery, and rejected of course.

There are criteria in place, but they are so subjective that it is up to committee members to decide whether the matter raised is a matter of public policy or not. It becomes totally subjective, totally partisan. It is a monumental joke.

As far as I am concerned, all private members' bills should be votable, unless an arm's length committee, such as a committee made up of clerks of the House, determines that a bill does not meet the prescribed criteria.

We have to open the committees to a great degree and even go so far as to let committees initiate legislation themselves. Committees are represented by members who are qualified and who, after doing committee work for a while, become extremely proficient in the subjects that are covered. I do not see why legislation cannot be initiated through committees.

Another item which is significant is our failure to address change and to realize that tradition and rules are good to a degree except if they hinder progress to the extent that they become stupid. I defy any member to tell me the electoral name of any one of the members of his party just off the bat. One member represents Bonaventure—Gaspé—Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Pabok and another represents Hastings—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington. I am sure the Speaker has to have a list in front of him to decipher one from the other.

I have been to parliaments. I have been to the U.S. Congress. I have been to the parliaments of Finland, Sweden and all kinds of parliaments where people call each other by their names. It seems very simple to me. Yet here names are taboo. It is a sin to call somebody by their name. If we do we get called by the Speaker. However, my name is my name. I am not Lac-Saint-Louis. That is not my name. I would prefer to be known by my name and people will recognize me by my name as I do theirs.

In committee I am no longer Lac-Saint-Louis, I am Lincoln, but here Lincoln is taboo, I am Lac-Saint-Louis. Does it make sense? Does it improve the dialogue among parliamentarians? I say no. Why should all of us here be hon. members of Lac-Saint-Louis or something else, but as soon as we leave the precinct of this place we are no longer hon., except if we are a minister or a senator? Does it make sense? Why should I be an hon. member here and not be an hon. member in a committee? It would be far simpler to be just plain myself and I would prefer it very much.

Modernization to me involves the electoral process, and it starts there. The electoral process has to be looked at again.

One of the most demeaning functions I have as an elected member, whether at the provincial level or the federal level today, is to go and raise funds, to go and beg this person, this friend, that friend for $100 or $150, or to go and see a corporation and hopefully get $1,000 here and there. I find this demeaning not only for me but for the person who is asked or the corporation that is asked.

The electoral process has to be changed so that 100% of the financing comes from the state with the necessary safeguards to prevent frivolous candidates, as is the case today. We would be refunded 100% of our electoral expenses if they were bona fide. This would avoid all this financing in between elections, going here to there to beg for money right and left. I think it would avoid conflicts of interest. It would make for a far cleaner process. I understand that the cost to the state would be something like $125 million, which is peanuts for a country of our size.

We should also look at the electoral process from the point of view of the first past the post process. A first past the post process is not fair.

The Australians have made great strides in parliamentary reform compared to us. They have reformed their type of parliament. They have elected the senate. They have decided that the first past the post process is not sufficient. Candidates have to have 50% plus 1 to gain a seat. This is the case for many countries. We should look at these things. We may not adopt it finally because for some good reason we may want to keep the present system, but at least we should consider the possibility of change.

On adopting modified proportional representation or proportional representation, again I am not saying that this is what we must do, but we should at least study seriously and thoroughly what other people have done in this case. If it will better our democratic parliamentary life, then by all means we should adopt it.

Traditions are great. Rules are great. In my own church, which was the most hidebound institution of any, I have seen immense change in the last 20 or 30 years. Yet the parliamentary process is stuck.

The most typical thing, Mr. Speaker, is that as you rise, the three pages have to rise with you and sit when you sit. Does that make sense? Do you like it yourself, Mr. Speaker? Do they like it? I wonder if this is not typical of our hidebound traditions which happened for no reason. They just happened one day and then became frozen in time.

We have to look at all these things and ask ourselves, is it better that I be called by my name or by the member for Lac-Saint-Louis? Is it better that the pages stand up and sit down? We should look at these things, but we do not.

My plea today is that in the course of this debate we at least resolve among one another to look at these issues. Whether we are from the Canadian Alliance, the Liberal Party or the New Democratic Party, we should look at these issues seriously and reform this place so that it can be a more fair and democratic place for the best interests of Canadians at large and certainly for our best interests.

Parliamentary ReformGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

Bloc

Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a comment to my friend, Mr. Lincoln, since he prefers to be called Mr. Lincoln—

Parliamentary ReformGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh.

Parliamentary ReformGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Order, please. I would invite the member to take his seat for a moment. There is an old practice in the House, whereby only one member at a time—and right now, that is the Chair—may have the floor.

That said, even though proposals might be the subject of future studies, current practices remain in place at this time. Therefore we will follow the longstanding Canadian parliamentary practice of recognizing members by their title or by the name of their riding.

I would simply invite members to respect the traditional practice. The hon. member for Rivière-des-Mille-Îles.

Parliamentary ReformGovernment Orders

1:10 p.m.

Bloc

Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Mr. Speaker, I only said that to bring some levity to the House.

I am sorry if I misunderstood the member's suggestion. However, in his comments, he neglected to mention the Senate. The House is aware of my opinion on the Senate: it should not exist.

If tradition is to spare the Senate, does he believe that senators should be elected or appointed? I would like to hear his comments on the Senate.

Parliamentary ReformGovernment Orders

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

Clifford Lincoln Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

Mr. Speaker, I live in reality for now. According to our Constitution, it is virtually impossible to change the Senate today, because it would require the unanimous consent of the provinces and the federal government. I think that would be virtually impossible to obtain.

However, if it were possible to have an elected Senate tomorrow morning, I would be ecstatic. I believe that the Senate should be elected. I do not believe that in 2002 we should still be appointing people to the Senate.

Therefore, I support the member's suggestion. If it were possible, it would be ideal.

Parliamentary ReformGovernment Orders

1:10 p.m.

Vancouver Quadra B.C.

Liberal

Stephen Owen LiberalSecretary of State (Western Economic Diversification) (Indian Affairs and Northern Development)

Mr. Speaker, I very much enjoyed the presentation by my hon. colleague, which of course draws on his long and distinguished experience in the House. There are ideas and observations which we should very carefully consider.

I would like to make an observation with respect to electoral reform. The Law Commission of Canada has currently undertaken a research project on electoral reform, with high levels of public participation. That will be of great assistance to us as it plays out over the next few months.

In my province of British Columbia a citizens' congress is being created to look into electoral reform in that province. It seems to me that coming from a provincial base, perhaps many other provinces might look at and try out different models. It would be very instructive to us over time in the federal Parliament to consider what might be tested and deemed broad public acceptance at the provincial level which can be enacted without any constitutional complexity.

I would like to ask a question of my hon. colleague with respect to committees developing and introducing legislation. The theory of the development of legislation through the government--one would hope through broad caucus debate and then cabinet determination and executive drafting is quite different from hon. members in the opposition or members in the news media or people who are advocates for a particular interest group. Government has to bring some cohesion to governance. Different issues have to be traded off.

I wonder, if we developed legislation through committees, experts as they are in their fields, whether they would have the breadth and scope to bring coherence to that legislation as it must balance against other legislative demands and responsibilities.

Parliamentary ReformGovernment Orders

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

Clifford Lincoln Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

Mr. Speaker, I agree in principle 100% with my colleague, but we should be very careful in setting up such a measure. It would have to be circumscribed extremely strongly.

At the same time I am thinking of areas where a government for one reason or another, fails to enact legislation in areas of key public interest. For its own selfish reasons, it decides to avoid it so that the matter is never brought up here. In the United States system, senators and members of the house of representatives can do so. In our system there is no leeway at all except for private members' bills which get nowhere.

In some measure, provided the measure were circumscribed very strongly by criteria and caveats, committees in certain cases could bring forward legislation to plug gaps which governments deliberately left closed. This is the sense of my intervention.

Parliamentary ReformGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Mr. Speaker, we are engaged in a debate today dealing with procedural reforms in the House of Commons, a subject which many or most Canadians regard as not too terribly interesting, something slightly more exciting than watching paint dry. Some of us are forced to take a different view and that is because in reality this chamber is probably the linchpin of our democracy.

There is no other place in the country where the people of Canada can place their views, infuse a chamber with perspective on issues and in reality, control the future evolution of policy and law in the country. There is no other place, not in Canada and not in the world, where Canadians can do that except in this House.

As a linchpin for our democracy the rules that govern us here are actually quite important. Sometimes the rules we have influence the culture in the House; at other times the culture we have in the House influences the evolution of the rules. At the end of the day what we have around this place, the rules written and unwritten that we use, are a major factor in the evolution of our democracy.

There is a philosophical difference that comes up from time to time. I take one view but I have heard other people express another. The House itself in my view is not an empty vessel that is filled with a government every four years or so. It is not a place that is empty until it gets filled with a government. In my view it is not that. The House has a life beyond the two extremes of emptiness and government. A House has a life, a character, a vitality and a presence that recognizes all Canadians.

If the prevailing view is that it is just an empty vessel that is filled with a government, one would question what role there is for an opposition member. The role of an opposition member is as full and vital as the role of a member on the government side. That is because this is the House of Commons and it is not an appendage of the Government of Canada. It is a separate, distinct and vital place that informs and leads the rest of governance in the country.

As we move through elections a few of the bodies may change and the government may change, but the purpose and role, ethics and culture of this place carry on. This place is not a church and it is not a corporate boardroom. No one, Canadians anywhere, should wish that upon this place. It is a unique entity in our democratic system.

It is not quiet like a church and it does not have rules of order like a boardroom with a chairman. It just is a different kind of institution. While it may not be appreciated by all Canadians because they do not have the privilege like all of us do of being here and of living the place, that is a fact. It is a place where we shape policy and legislation and adopt legislation all in the public interest for Canada.

Over the last year or two, being one of those people who do like to watch paint dry from time to time, I prepared a booklet on the subject. There were some 17 suggestions for members of the House of Commons in fortifying their efforts to keep this place as a healthy democratic institution. Not all of the items that I urged upon colleagues involved actual reform. I titled it “Backbench Exercises”, a little like let us get out there, do our push-ups and stay fit as an institution.

There were some suggestions for reform. As an example, I suggested we alter the way we do the Friday question period to allow specific focus on one ministry rather than the shotgun approach that we have normally in each of our question periods.

I suggested that we could make use of a second chamber for debate, as now exists in Westminster. A second chamber would allow members, not as government or opposition, to take up motions, petitions and other matters that do not require a vote, but which require, from the perspective of the member, a need to be placed on the public record. Members around this place struggle to find time for private members' business. A second chamber would allow that to happen.

I suggested that we need to develop a protocol of some sort to deal with section 33 issues of the charter that may come down from the courts. We have not had a big one yet, but one day it will come. We will have to wing it on how we handle it in this place and we should try to sort something out before that happens.

Let me focus on two things on which I want to urge reform. The first one is a relatively easy one. It is not so much reform as making use of it and maybe tweaking the rules a little.

Before access to information was legislated by this place, access to information for citizens to gain access to government, the mechanism used by parliamentarians was a motion for the production of papers. That particular procedure in the House was used for over a century. It is used in the House of Commons in the U.K. It is quite old. It was the means by which a member of Parliament could get access to government information.

However, since the introduction of the legislated access to information for citizens the production of papers procedure used in the House has not been used as much and there are even instances of members of Parliament using the access to information legislation.

As a result the production of papers procedure has fallen into disuse. I am a little nervous that it may atrophy, shrivel up and disappear. I am of the view that this place should maintain a parallel, tandem, healthy, functioning production of papers mechanism. While the House always has the authority to do it, the individual member should have that mechanism available. We ought to keep it and use it more than we do now.

The second item I want to deal with is on the subject of disallowance. As the House knows, under chapter XIV of the Standing Orders the House has the ability to disallow a federal government regulation where that regulation does not comply with the authorizing statute or other scrutiny criteria. The Standing Joint Committee for the Scrutiny of Regulations manages that envelope and reports to the House from time to time on matters of that nature. Over the last 10 years there have been eight or nine disallowances of federal government regulations.

In that procedure, which is governed totally now by the Standing Orders, it appears that the committee and the House are only able to deal with regulations passed by the governor in council, ministers, and the Prime Minister. They can be disallowed and we have been able to do that in appropriate cases.

However there is a class of regulation authorized to be made by agencies outside government, for example, the CRTC and the Canadian Transportation Agency. These agencies have the ability to make regulations on their own and the disallowance authority, the disallowance powers in the rules, does not apparently allow the disallowance of those regulations. It is rather absurd and silly that the House should have the ability to disallow regulations made by the cabinet but not regulations made by these other institutions.

When our rules were first put in place it was said at the time that we would get around to fixing it up a little later once we saw how the procedure worked. In my view the procedure works extremely well. That is an outstanding housekeeping matter. The disallowance power is proving itself to be an important tool used by the committee and by the House in ensuring federal regulations continue to comply with the law, the charter, the rules of the House and the authorizing statute.

I urge that it be on the list. Let us complete that mechanism and ensure that we have a healthy, strong disallowance of power.

Parliamentary ReformGovernment Orders

1:25 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Gurmant Grewal Canadian Alliance Surrey Central, BC

Mr. Speaker, I highly appreciate the comments made by my hon. colleague across the way, particularly his comments on the disallowance procedure for the scrutiny of regulations committee which is a joint committee of the House and Senate. I wish to congratulate the member on his election as vice-chair of that committee today.

As we debate the modernization of Parliament we know that it is an integral part of democratic reform. Another important component is regulatory reform which has been ignored for too long. Regulatory reform is important because 80% of the law that we see in this country is generally made through the back door. I am speaking of regulations and statutory instruments. Only 20% of the law is debated in this chamber. Members passionately debate and vote on legislation, and deal with those issues differently. However the 80% component is completely ignored or at least goes through improper scrutiny.

I would like to ask my colleague if he feels that the issue of regulatory reform has been ignored.

After hearing from various organizations and Canadians we know there has been an overlapping of regulations in Canada between various departments and different levels of government. There is duplication and many regulations are redundant. We need to separate those regulations into good, bad and ugly and get rid of those that are not needed anymore. Maybe there is a need for a sunset clause in some regulations. Maybe there is a need to harmonize the regulatory process or the regulations between different levels of government. Similarly, there is a need to set up an inter-provincial standardization commission whereby we could standardize various regulatory processes between different provinces.

There are many other things: regulatory impact analysis; cost benefit analysis; setting up input from the public and the media on the regulatory process; regulations sent to committees; and a regulatory flexibility act similar to the one in the U.S. These are things that need to be addressed.

Since the member has a lot of experience on this committee, would he recommend that we study regulatory reform in that committee? Would he urge the government to take some concrete action on regulatory reform?

Parliamentary ReformGovernment Orders

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Mr. Speaker, the regulatory burden in this country is quite high but it is an essential element of our legislative umbrella. The previous government and the current Liberal government both took steps to address regulatory reform in the late eighties and early nineties. Between 1993 and 1997 two bills were before this place which would have altered the format for making and changing regulations. It was perhaps some resistance from members on this side of the House and on his side of the House that prevented those bills from advancing because of the method suggested.

As a result each of the departments under the supervision of Treasury Board have in their own way altered the way they create and get rid of regulations with a view to reducing the regulatory burden. Every new regulation has a regulatory impact analysis statement attached to it. There is a process involved. There is no automatic sunsetting but there may be some sunsetting in some regulations.

In small steps the government has accomplished a lot of what generically the member is urging. In the whole field of regulatory activity the statute size would be this big and the regulatory burden alone would be this big. It will always be that way and it is a constant effort to keep the regulatory burden financially and economically viable, and to make it effective for the purpose intended. I do not have a magic bullet and I know he does not either.

The member wants to look at the issue. It is something we should always be looking at either on a department by department basis or on a cross government basis. As soon as the pain gets too great or the burden gets too great, as soon as inefficiencies show up, at that point Parliament will probably intervene and look more closely at it.

Parliamentary ReformGovernment Orders

1:30 p.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to take part in today's debate on the modernization and improvement of the procedures of the House of Commons. This is an important issue. We want democracy to be more open for parliamentarians elected to the House of Commons. The public must not wonder what power its member of Parliament has if he or she is not a government member.

Government members who are sitting close to the curtains, backbenchers, are also saying that they do not have enough powers, and they want to have more of a say.

It is said that Parliament has been looking at modernizing and improving its procedures for 20 years, but it is as if it cannot go ahead with it. Committees are set up, but there is never any agreement. We can never bring the issue before the House and get an agreement on changes to the procedures of the House of Commons.

Recently, the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs decided to raise in the House the issue of electing all parliamentary committee chairs by secret ballot. The government's argument was “This will be done bit by bit”. Government officials were not pleased. The government House leader told us “Why not have another committee to look at the modernization and improvement of the procedures of the House?”

The committee felt strongly about its view. It made a recommendation on this issue and presented it to the House of Commons. The House supported that recommendation. My goodness. We are lucky that the Prime Minister and the former Minister of Finance are fighting, otherwise this never would have gone through. Let us face it: this would never have passed in the House of Commons.

The problem is that the government in office does not want to let go of its power, it does not want to let democracy make decisions. It is as simple as that. The Prime Minister himself said “It is not democratic to have a secret ballot”.

In visits to other countries throughout the world, we go around telling the developing countries they need to have more democratic procedures, with a secret vote, and here we have our Prime Minister telling the House that a secret vote is not democratic, that it is not democratic for his people to be able to act according to their wishes and those of the people they represent.

So we have mixed messages here. On the one hand, we want democracy, but on the other we are not prepared to respect it in our own House of Commons. I am troubled by this, I would even go so far as to say I was disgusted. I can understand that the government is defending itself, and wants to keep hold of the power, but it is a big jump from that to telling us that a secret vote is not democratic.

I will give another example, one I am not afraid to give. When it is reported that a labour union has held a strike vote, but not a secret vote, the reaction is that this was not democratic, not right, and that another, secret, vote must be held. Here, we have a Prime Minister who has just told us that a secret vote is undemocratic. Imagine that.

Yesterday in this House, the Leader of the Government in the House said the following:

Members, Liberal members at any rate, vote freely on all private members' bills.

Imagine that.

I will tell a little story, a very interesting one, in hopes that a good many Canadians will hear it. When the Bloc Quebecois member introduced a private member's motion calling upon the Crown to acknowledge the wrongs done to the Acadians, little notes were found strewn all over the floor, notes from the Liberals telling their members how to vote.

As the member for Acadie—Bathurst, I asked the Minister of Canadian Heritage for financial assistance to help a singer in my riding who was going to Vietnam. I had been told she could get some assistance, so I went to see the Minister of Canadian Heritage to ask for it. The community rallied around this person and even the ambassador to Vietnam was happy to welcome a star. When Sandra Lecouteur went to Vietnam, she was given an incredible reception. Our little Acadian singer has also sung in Paris and at the Montreal Place des Arts, and everywhere she goes she gets a great reception.

When I asked the Minister of Canadian Heritage whether her department would be prepared to contribute $1,200—since the opposition does not hold the purse strings—I think I followed proper procedure. There did not seem to be any problem at all. Everything was OK. That was last May.

Since this was June and I had not heard anything further about my request, I tried again to contact the minister. This may seem strange, but it shows the pressure that they put on their members, at least that is what I think. When I met the minister, she told me “There is no problem, the public servants did not do their job”. It was the public servants who were to blame.

In July, I still had not received an answer. So, I phoned the department again and I was told “No problem, this will be done, it has been approved”.

In September, when the House resumed sitting, I once again met with the Minister of Canadian Heritage who said “I will talk to my officials and this will be settled soon”. I told myself “The issue will finally be settled. This is September and I have been waiting since May”.

Then, we voted on the motion tabled by the Bloc Quebecois member, asking the Crown to present an official apology to the Acadian people for the wrongs done to them. I voted in favour of the motion. After the vote, I went to see the minister again, but she angrily turned her back on me and left.

Finally, the next day I again met the minister and told her “Where is the $1,200?” She replied “Go see the Bloc Quebecois and ask them for the money, because you supported their motion”.

What I am saying is that there are ministers in the House who have an incredible and unacceptable power when the time comes to vote on motions or on private members' bills.

I object to the government House leader saying that Liberal members vote freely on all private members' business. The hon. member for Beauséjour—Petitcodiac was going around the House of Commons telling his colleagues how to vote, because the Minister of Canadian Heritage was watching how members were voting and she has the portfolio. I say that this is putting pressure on members and this is no longer a democratic process.

I will not ask the Bloc Quebecois to pay for the costs of a government program in New Brunswick, in the Acadian Peninsula, when there is a minister here who should do her job.

It is the same thing with motions presented by members. I have a hard time with that and I will explain why. We decided to produce a report on members' motions. All the parties involved unanimously proposed that some changes be made and that we vote on all motions and bills. The names of 30 different members are randomly selected, and these members must appear before a parliamentary committee to see if their motion or bill can be debated and become a votable item.

Out of a possible ten motions or bills that could be deemed votable, the parties only managed to reach consensus on four. Is this not a shame for the members who work so hard in preparing a bill? We have the opportunity to vote on ten motions or bills and we cannot even reach a consensus to vote.

This morning, one of the parliamentary secretaries rose and said that the House should be able to decide if a private member's motion or bill will be votable. Can you imagine how they have paralyzed the House of Commons? The government has no new business to bring before the House. For two days now we have been having a take note debate and there are no bills being considered. I do not think that the House should be spending its entire day like this. Normally, take note debates take place at night.

When there are 30 motions or bills before us and we cannot agree to choose at least ten that will be deemed votable—because there is room for 10—it seems to indicate to me that the House is not prepared to change Parliament, to modernize and improve it.

This morning, at a meeting of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs, Northern Development and Natural Resources, the member for Windsor—St. Clair moved a motion. He debated the motion for four minutes when the committee chair interrupted him and said, “That is enough, we will now vote”.

We are all aware that the Liberals form a majority in committees. Once again, I find it completely unacceptable that someone was prevented from expressing themselves in committee. I have sat on committees where members were not able to express themselves. Some people take longer than others, and others are quicker. But a situation like that which took place this morning is unacceptable. Where is the democracy in that?

When we sit on a committee, it is the same thing. It is obvious. Committee hearings are recorded and televised, they are public. Members of the governing party say, “We Liberals are here to represent the government. We are here to govern”.

It was not my understanding that that was what committees were for. Parliamentary committees should allow Canadians to express their views and they should bring the suggestions and recommendations that Canadians have to Parliament. Then, it is up to the governing majority to decide whether or not they want to accept the recommendations made by the committee. However, that is not what happens in committee.

We are a long way from being able to say that there is a will to modernize or improve the way things are done. Improvements are required not only here, in the House of Commons, but throughout the system, both at the parliamentary and the committee levels.

I do not want to be pessimistic, but I know that things will not change. The only changes that we might see would be along the lines of the ones that took place a few weeks ago. This was a committee recommendation. There was a feud between the Prime Minister of Canada and the former Minister of Finance. The Liberals voted in favour of a motion for secret ballot elections in committee. This was the only time there had ever been changes. They are not proud of it and they feel humiliated because they lost their hold.

I am sure that, after the next Liberal leader has been selected, they will reunite to regain their hold. They will forget all about democracy. They will forget all about open-mindedness, not unlike the former Minister of Finance who is touring the country talking about changing our Parliament. The current Prime Minister is not the only to blame. When he was the Minister of Finance, he took money that belonged to the workers without so much as a by your leave and used it to balance his budget. He eliminated the deficit at the expense of those who are jobless. This is the kind of democracy he is advocating across the country. He will come back to the House pretending to be a new man. He claims to be open, telling people thins like “You will be welcome to express your views. You will get to vote along with us. We will not put any pressure on you”. Come on.

I am 47 years old. I was not born yesterday. That is fine Canadian politics, and that is all it is. The press is always after him, following him wherever he goes. He is the nicest and handsomest man in Canada, and he is going to save our country. This is the kind of democracy he stands for.

For example, yesterday, the House dealt with a really important motion. As if it was not bad enough to take the money of the workers who lost their jobs while it was enjoying a $40 billion surplus, the government decided to target persons with disabilities. It told them “You are not entitled to tax deductions. We will put you on the chopping block. If you cannot find a doctor or a specialist in the health system, you will have to fill out a form”. That form has to completed by answering yes or no. The specialist cannot even write comments on the form. He cannot say anything about the patient that consulted him. A yes or a no makes things so easy. If one can walk a distance of 150 feet, one is not eligible for the tax deduction.

I know a man in my riding who lost a leg. He uses a prosthesis and he was entitled to the tax deduction for 12 years. Now, under the new policy, if a person can walk 150 feet, that person is no longer entitled to the tax deduction. I asked that man if his leg had grown back. He said no. His foot did not grow back. Denis Boucher's foot and leg have not grown back.

Such measures show how cruel this government can be.

Now, the government is saying “We want to give Parliament power”. We will see if the government does that. Yesterday, Parliament made a unanimous decision. We are the elected members of Canada and the House decided to tell the government to leave persons with disabilities alone. This is what the House said. I am anxious to see if the government will act democratically in this regard. I am anxious to see what it will do.

In this morning's newspaper, it was reported that the Minister of Finance left because he did not want to vote on his own program. This is bad. The person who should change the act or the regulations because Parliament made a decision did not even want to take a stand on his own rules. I am afraid that nothing will change. Let us hope that the voice of parliamentarians will be listened to. Otherwise, all these discussions today are pointless. All the representations that parliamentarians have been making for the past 20 years are pointless.

When speaking of Parliament, we should also address our elections and the way we are elected in Canada. Canada ought to be a democratic country. The Speaker of the House is supposed to appoint certain persons, and now it is the ministers of the government who are doing so. I find that there is no longer any democracy when the party in power is the one in charge of commissions to look into changes in our elections. This is no longer democracy.

There is need for more openness and transparency. More transparency would, I believe, earn us more respect from Canadians. Polls show that only 14% or 17% of Canadians trust politicians. This is a problem. Canadian politics are dangerous. Canadians have lost confidence in us and we are at the bottom of the list.

Frankly, who can blame them? In 1989, the House of Commons passed a motion stating that child poverty would be eradicated. Now, 10 years later, there are still 1.4 million poor children in Canada. Every month, 300,000 children are forced to turn to food banks. How can Canadians have any confidence in their politicians?

I can only hope that this government will open up to Parliament and start listening to parliamentarians. We need democracy, true Canadian democracy.

Parliamentary ReformGovernment Orders

1:50 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Mr. Speaker, I listened carefully. The last half of the hon. member's speech did not have a lot to do with parliamentary procedural matters, but it struck me, and this is just a very brief comment, that the hon. member seems to dislike democracy when the vote does not go his way. I did not see the hon. member objecting yesterday when the government members voted, to a person, en bloc, to support a motion put forward by one of his colleagues, a motion that was adopted in the House yesterday. I saw no objection at all when every member on this side of the House voted in favour. His objection seems to be that everybody on this side of the House votes against something that he is in favour of or vice versa; that is really not a very good definition of democracy from his point of view.

I have noticed frequently in the House how often his own party votes as a group without dividing among themselves. So if it is okay for the New Democratic Party members to vote as a bloc, it must be okay for the government members to vote as a bloc. I hope the hon. member was not objecting to the democratic right of all the members on the government side to think in the same way, to have the same views and to vote together like they did yesterday in favour of a motion put forward by one of his own colleagues; that is not democracy. This is democracy.

Parliamentary ReformGovernment Orders

1:50 p.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for offering his own clarification as to what he thought democracy was.

If he had been listening to my speech, he would have known that it was not about government bills. The government is here to play a lead role. I was speaking about private members' business, which is not the same thing.

The Leader of the Government in the House said “Members, Liberal members at any rate, vote freely on all private members' bills”.

This, to my knowledge, is not the case.

Parliamentary ReformGovernment Orders

1:50 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Mr. Speaker, my colleagues in the Bloc have given a standing ovation for this speech, a longer one than I have seen in some time, so I am curious and will ask a question.

I have never said this myself, but there are people who have suggested in modernizing Parliament that to be elected to Parliament members should be patriotic to the country and the nation as one whole, undivided, non-separated nation. Therefore, certain members who are in the House now, under those proscriptions, which I have not brought forward but some have, would not even be allowed to serve. I am curious as to what the member thinks about that.

Parliamentary ReformGovernment Orders

1:50 p.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Mr. Speaker, as I said, as we have said, we live in a democratic country and I think that we have the right of free speech and people have the right to make a decision. We are talking about democracy and voting in the House and now it is about who should be included and excluded and how we are going to start to shut out people for their beliefs and for what they like to see done. I do not think that it is up to us. It was not done when it happened at the beginning, when they changed parties and they did what they wanted. We have that freedom of expression in many places and in every province of country. People sometimes express themselves by saying that they are not happy with our country and sometimes I do not disagree. There are workers whose jobs were lost when the Liberal Party took away $40 billion. Do we think that they will love their country after that? That is a matter of opinion and it is a matter of discussion too.

Parliamentary ReformGovernment Orders

1:50 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Mr. Speaker, could the member give his opinions on one of the items for the debate today, the potential review related to judges? Some people suggested that judges should be elected. I wonder what the member's thoughts are.

Parliamentary ReformGovernment Orders

1:55 p.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Mr. Speaker, they talk about how judges should be elected but I do not know if the judges should be elected or if we should have maybe another democratic way to do it. Maybe we should have a committee or a group to do it.

Right now, the premier of a province will elect a judge or the Prime Minister will elect a judge. They elect all the people responsible, and I think it gives a view that asks if it is right or if there is a different way to do it. I think we should study this process of how we elect our judges. Maybe we could have a process in the House of Commons whereby the names would come up and people would study who would be the best judges for our country. Maybe that would be a good way because of the appearance that it is given when somebody appoints somebody, because of the impression that is left and what we think about. I think that is where it stands. I say that the process should change and we should explore different ways of how we make appointments in our country.

Parliamentary ReformGovernment Orders

1:55 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Val Meredith Canadian Alliance South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, BC

Mr. Speaker, I appreciated the hon. members comments. How does he feel about the committee process and does he feel that committees should be freed from the control of the executive branch of government?

Parliamentary ReformGovernment Orders

1:55 p.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Mr. Speaker. I really believe that parliamentary committees should be separate from government for the simple reason that parliamentary committees are there to be open to and to listen to Canadians. We are all adults. We should be able to form our opinion. As a committee, we should be able to present our opinion to the House of Commons with a recommendation for or against it. The Prime Minister should not be able to elect his own chair of each committee. The government still has more power because it has more members who can or cannot agree with the committee.

Democratically it will give Canadians a chance to express themselves in committee and have that reflected in the House of Commons where it belongs. When members are elected democratically with a secret ballot vote, which is the way we are elected in our ridings, they can do their real job.

I am sure the government backbenchers will feel a lot better when participating in the process. That is what they tell me when we go outside for a smoke.

Ross Memorial HospitalStatements By Members

1:55 p.m.

Liberal

John O'Reilly Liberal Haliburton—Victoria—Brock, ON

Mr. Speaker, this week marks a significant event in health care for the residents of Lindsay, Ontario and the surrounding area known as the Kawartha Lakes Region.

One hundred years ago, through the generosity of James and Annie Ross, the Ross Memorial Hospital was established to meet the medical needs of the residents of the town of Lindsay and the surrounding area. Now a regional health centre of excellence, the Ross is undergoing a major expansion program and the people have responded by donating a total of $6 million.

I wish to congratulate the professional health care workers, support staff, volunteers and auxiliary personnel for their dedication to excellence.

Queen's Jubilee MedalStatements By Members

1:55 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Dick Harris Canadian Alliance Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, last week I had the honour to present 19 Queen's Golden Jubilee Medals to some very great people in my riding. Those people included Noreen Rustiad, Lily Chow, Ray Kandola, Donalda Carson, Tom Masich. Debbie Byl, Dick Voneugen, Johnny Flatt, Charles MacDonald, Bob Stewart, Gladys Goode, Bob Good, Charles Jago, Ivan Anderson, Mona Mark, Dr. Jeffery Cowburn, Jerry Petersen, Jeannette Townsend and Phyllis Gainor.

These are wonderful people who have dedicated their lives to helping their community and the people around them. The communities of Prince George—Bulkley Valley are much the better for having these individuals in them. We all congratulate them.

National Diabetes DayStatements By Members

2 p.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Mr. Speaker, November 14 marked National Diabetes Day. More than two million Canadians have diabetes and this number will reach three million by 2010. Every eight minutes someone is newly diagnosed.

Diabetes is a lifelong condition where the body does not produce enough insulin, or it cannot use the insulin it produces. We need insulin to convert sugar from food to energy and when there is not enough insulin, the sugar remains in the blood such that sugar levels get too high. These high sugar levels over long periods of time cause numerous complications including damage to blood vessels, kidneys and difficulties with circulation.

In 1999, to enable Canadians to benefit more fully from the considerable resources and expertise available across the country, the Government of Canada pledged $115 million over five years to the development of the Canadian Diabetes Strategy.

I call on Canadians to increase their awareness and understanding of diabetes and its complications and how physical activity, a balanced diet and healthy behaviour can prevent the onset of this disease.

Day Care ServicesStatements By Members

2 p.m.

Liberal

Gurbax Malhi Liberal Bramalea—Gore—Malton—Springdale, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to note that Family Day Care Services of Mississauga has recently received a grant of $22,000 from the RBC Foundation. The grant will help Family Day Care Services to provide the material needed in supporting programs that help children benefit from early childhood education.

RBC Financial Group has been a long time supporter of education with a history of giving to the community. It has donated over $5 million to schools across Canada since 1999.

Day care services make a positive impact on children's ability to get along with others. Please join me in congratulating Family Day Care Services and with them well in the school year ahead.