House of Commons Hansard #141 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was tax.

Topics

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:15 p.m.

The Speaker

All those opposed will please say nay.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:15 p.m.

The Speaker

In my opinion the yeas have it. I declare the motion carried.

(Motion agreed to)

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:20 p.m.

The Speaker

I am ready to rule on the question of privilege raised by the hon. member for Laurier—Sainte-Marie yesterday.

It often happens that members on both sides of the House make general statements concerning an entire party or caucus without these statements being ruled out of order or falling into the category of unparliamentary language.

Indeed just today the hon. Leader of the Opposition in his opening question expressed his indignation that the government, and I paraphrase, spends its time defending al-Qaeda terrorists rather than working to solve the softwood lumber crisis.

As my predecessor, Speaker Parent, said, and I quote:

Paramount to our political and parliamentary systems is the principle of freedom of speech, a member's right to stand in this House unhindered to speak his or her mind. However when debate in the House centres on sensitive issues, as it often does, I would expect that members would always bear in mind the possible effects of their statements and hence be prudent in their tone and choice of words.

This citation is taken from Hansard , September 30, 1994.

That being said, the exchange today between the Prime Minister and the leader of the Bloc Quebecois seems to have satisfactorily dealt with the question raised yesterday by the member for Laurier—Sainte-Marie.

I therefore consider the question of privilege to be resolved. However, I urge all members to be judicious in their choice of words during oral question period.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:20 p.m.

Bloc

Gilles Duceppe Bloc Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank you for using your great wisdom to set the boundaries of our debates.

Following today's debates, I notice that being merely frustrated is justification to get into gutter politics. I will remember that in the future, but I want to tell you that we will never stoop as low as the level that you are proposing. We think that it would be insensitive and wrong to use the unique instrument that the House of Commons is.

As for us, we will not allow ourselves to stoop so low. We will never allow ourselves to make as undignified remarks as the ones made by the Prime Minister, which you allow, in your great wisdom.

I thank you for being so understanding and for creating an atmosphere that promotes democracy. I am extremely grateful for that.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:20 p.m.

The Speaker

The Chair always appreciates the support of the hon. members in exercising its duties.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:20 p.m.

Leeds—Grenville Ontario

Liberal

Joe Jordan LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of clarification. I appreciate the points you made and the standard that you have set, but my understanding is that the standard was not reached. Is that your finding?

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:20 p.m.

The Speaker

The hon. member will be able to read my words with great care tomorrow. However, no, I indicated there had not been a breach of the standards of the House in this case and urged members to be more judicious in their use of language, a constant reminder from the Chair.

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-49, an act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in parliament on December 10, 2001, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Budget Implementation Act, 2001Government Orders

3:20 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Reed Elley Canadian Alliance Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House to join the debate on the budget. I could use my time today to discuss a great many things concerning this subject. Like my colleagues on this side of the House I could raise the issue of the way the Liberals sleepwalked the nation into the recession, yet they failed to put effective countermeasures into place.

My own riding of Nanaimo--Cowichan has been particularly hard hit economically for some time now. My constituents shake their heads in dismay when they hear of questionable grants that have been passed out by the government, fountains in the Prime Minister's riding and the Enron-like style accounting practices of many government departments.

I could discuss the government's mismanagement of the sinking Canadian dollar and how the Prime Minister has made the low dollar a very low priority. Sometimes people ask if Canadians are really interested in this sort of discussion and issue. I want to say that they are interested. In fact yesterday I received an e-mail from a constituent in my riding about the falling Canadian dollar. He wrote:

It's almost unbelievable; our dollar was starting to improve and then [the Prime Minister] went down to New York and turned it around again. I don't know if you or any of the caucus happened to watch his speech, but any American seeing that performance would pack up his assets in Canada for sure...I have relatives down there who can't believe we could elect such a--

I will not repeat the word he used.

Our dollar is not only dropping against the U.S. dollar, it is also dropping against the Mexican peso if you can believe it. Last year at this time a Canadian dollar bought 6 pesos. I checked at the Credit Union yesterday thinking of purchasing pesos before I went to Mexico later this month and it is now 5.2 pesos for a Canadian dollar. When [the finance minister] says that it is the strength of the U.S. dollar that is causing the problem; how can he explain our dollar crashing against the Mexican peso as well? Does this mean that the Mexican economy is stronger than ours?

These are the kinds of questions that ordinary Canadians are asking about their government and the handling of our finances. I could go on. Although Canadians have an appetite for fiscal accountability and real debt reduction, there has been no planned debt reduction included in this budget. I could speak to a myriad of different things including security and the needs of our armed forces and our intelligence gathering capabilities. My colleagues have already spoken to many of them.

Unfortunately the mental drift of the government has left our fiscal policy in disarray. We have gone for almost two years without a budget. During the past decade we have seen our standard of living drop dramatically. While our American cousins have greater purchasing power than they did in 1989, Canadians now have less. This is simply unacceptable and we in this party are very concerned about our economy if the government is not.

However I really do not want to talk about those issues. I want to talk about the need for greater accountability starting with our national budget. As the senior critic for Indian affairs for the Canadian Alliance, I am particularly interested in how this budget will affect aboriginal people in Canada. Accumulatively with all departments combined, the federal budget for aboriginal people amounts to almost $7.4 billion. That is a staggering amount of money.

One would think that with a budget that size, the economic well-being of aboriginal people would be increasing. Unfortunately we all know that many of our on-reserve aboriginal people live in some of the most deplorable conditions that could be found across North America or even many parts of the world. We must ask why this is happening.

At the same time there are many good examples of money being well used by aboriginal bands in Canada. There is the Six Nations reserve in southern Ontario. There are aboriginal businesses such as the gravel mining business of the Sechelt band on the west coast and the Membertou band which achieved ISO certification last week. These types of aboriginal businesses should set the standard for others. Unfortunately such good examples are often overshadowed by the negative aspects of federal government policy, financial mismanagement by the bands or, even worse, a combination of both.

Here is a case in point. The third party management policy of the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs is clearly not working. I believe the minister is aware of the problem but changes must be made to the existing system because it is failing everyone.

Recently in Winnipeg aboriginal leaders, private businesses, banks and the Canadian Alliance member for Selkirk--Interlake met to discuss the problem. It is highly unusual to have all these players at the same table and agreeing on the main issue of the day. I am pleased we in our party could play an important role in the meeting and in bringing the matter to the attention of the House of Commons.

Simply put, under existing federal policy when a band is placed in third party management the directive is to only address the current and future primary needs of the band. If a band has mismanaged its financial affairs outside assistance may be necessary. We recognize that. However the private businesses that have provided goods and services in good faith and under contractual agreements are left out in the cold.

The minister has stated that the federal government has no responsibility for private businesses. He says if private businesses want to be paid they should resort to the court system and sue the band. Have hon. members ever tried getting blood out of a stone? Most of the assets of the band are the property of the crown and therefore cannot be seized or have a lien placed against them. Sure, private businesses can undertake the expense of going to court and even win a successful judgment. However they can do nothing when they have claimed the judgment because it is worthless.

If the minister wants accountability let us start by introducing budgetary changes that address the problem. When the few bands placed in third party management default on bona fide contracts the good reputation of all other bands is tarnished as well.

Peace Hills Trust, an aboriginal bank owned by the Hobbema band, has stated that the current policy is causing it to be far more cautious in its lending practices. A number of businesses across Canada are refusing to do any kind of business with aboriginal peoples. This is unacceptable. It will not help economic stimulation on reserves if this keeps going on.

In the midst of all these problems houses and schools still need to be built. Roads still need to be plowed in the middle of winder and dust retardant laid down in the summer. Funeral services still need to be conducted. The government's policy on the issue remains unresolved.

If people own lumber companies, chemical supply companies or funeral homes and have default judgments against previous aboriginal clients, why on earth would they continue to do business with other aboriginal clients? Many businesses are saying the same thing: Once bitten, twice shy. The defaults of a few bands are harming the business relationships and opportunities of the remaining bands. Yet possible solutions are not apparent in the budget or the government's legislative agenda.

If I could make recommendations to the minister and his officials they would be something like this: First, he should level the playing field for everyone. Second, he should bring accountability to the forefront for both his department and the bands. Third, he should use the good examples of many bands across Canada today as a training model for others. Fourth, he should set up a system that will ensure businesses that provide goods and services to bands are not left holding worthless court judgments.

The reputation of aboriginal people has been harmed enough over the years due to poor government policy. If the government drafts new workable changes it will have the full support of the aboriginal community, private businesses, banks and, yes, perhaps the opposition parties. If it introduces this kind of legislation we will all work to speed it through the House.

In conclusion, I am disappointed in the budget and in the aspects of the bill before us. The last throne speech promised big things for aboriginal people. The Prime Minister says that is one of his pet projects. The budget was an opportunity to address many of the issues before us today. However it has failed aboriginal people, private businesses and all Canadians in general.

Budget Implementation Act, 2001Government Orders

3:30 p.m.

Bloc

Yvan Loubier Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Mr. Speaker, I listened attentively to the speech by my colleague from the Canadian Alliance. If there is one thing that caught my attention, it was when he referred to the Prime Minister's visit to New York on the weekend, to the World Economic Forum. The member spoke about the Canadian dollar and the effect of the presence of the Prime Minister of Canada and his speech on the Canadian dollar. He actually made it drop. The Prime Minister managed quite the feat in making the Canadian dollar drop while he was in New York.

But I have a question for my colleague from the Canadian Alliance. There is much concern about the instability of the Canadian dollar, about its constant and structural decline over the last 30 years, about the violent swings in the Canadian dollar over the last few weeks and last few years, since the Asian crisis. The same question is always raised, regarding the causes.

There are two things that need to be considered. First, when it comes to businesses being competitive, I think that everyone would agree that Canadian businesses have a problem competing, with American businesses in particular. Second, when it comes to the Canadian dollar, I think that there is less consensus on this, because every time we raise the issue, the member seems to have an acute attack of Canadian nationalism. However, on the currency markets, the Canadian dollar is considered a secondary currency, which falls victim to speculators who can make money with every infinitesimal change in the value of secondary currencies, such as the Canadian dollar.

The member mentioned that he was concerned about Canada's economy. If such is the case, would it not be a good idea to agree to have the debate that we in the Bloc Quebecois have raised, on the issue of the monetary integration of the Americas, so that we can prepare ourselves for having a single currency some day?

Whether it is the American dollar or something else, that is not important. But let us stop being victimized by speculators and provide some support for Canadian business to help them become more competitive and stop this decline in the Canadian dollar.

Budget Implementation Act, 2001Government Orders

3:35 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Myron Thompson Canadian Alliance Wild Rose, AB

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. That was such an excellent question I know there is an excellent answer coming. However there ought to be more than two Liberals in the House to hear it. I call for a quorum.

And the count having been taken:

Budget Implementation Act, 2001Government Orders

3:35 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I see a quorum.

Budget Implementation Act, 2001Government Orders

3:35 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Reed Elley Canadian Alliance Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague has elicited such an incredible response from the party across the way that maybe he should answer the question.

The whole question of a low Canadian dollar is not something that will be easily solved in the near future. As long as the government's policy is to keep the dollar at a low level in comparison to the American currency because it feels we need to do so as an exporting nation, we will not see any great rise in the value of the Canadian dollar.

My hon. colleague raised a question about integration of our currencies. We in the Canadian Alliance have not taken a position on the issue. There is no question this is a subject that will receive a good deal of debate in the near future. All of us in the House will need to think cogently and rationally about this subject before we go into it. However I appreciate what my hon. colleague has said today.

Budget Implementation Act, 2001Government Orders

3:35 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank especially my Bloc Quebecois colleagues for their support. I am very pleased to rise today to speak to the December 2001 budget implementation bill.

The curious thing about an implementation bill is that it always contains measures we support. Often they are measures put forward by the Bloc Quebecois, in this case the provisions dealing with mechanics, which were championed by the member for Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans. I believe he deserves our support.

At the same time, we find measures such as the air security charge. For that we have nobody to applaud on either side. Today, we even heard a Liberal member arguing very strongly in favour of amending this part of the bill. His argumentation was very convincing, since he talked a lot about small airports in the remote areas of his riding.

Unfortunately, I fail to understand the logic of his reasoning. He said during questions and comments that in the end he would still vote for the bill. This is the downside of his presentation.

I urge everybody to read what he said regarding the air security tax, which is going to be entirely paid for by travellers. This means for instance that in airports in Alma, Bagotville, Baie-Comeau, Chibougamau, Gaspe, the Magdalen Islands, Kuujjuaq, La Grande Rivière, la Grande-3, La Grande-4, Blanc-Sablon, Mont-Joli, Montreal, Quebec City, Roberval, Rouyn-Noranda, Sept-Îles et Val-d'Or, in every single one of these small or medium size airports, travellers will have to pay this surcharge, when we know full well that the whole issue of terrorism is going to require the implementation of new technologies, but mainly in major airports.

This morning, another member from the Canadian Alliance said that the Standing Committee on Transport had made a very constructive proposal. It suggested that half of the bill be paid by users and the other half by the government. This way, we would reduce the negative impact on the development of these regions.

For this reason alone, we have no choice but to vote against the bill, unless the government decides to withdraw this half-baked measure that has seemingly been hastily put together, a bit like the infrastructure foundation.

In the same bill, in the same December budget where they come up with this new air travel tax, they also invented a new method for dealing with infrastructure expenditures, via a foundation.

Everybody has spoken out against this and attacked it, because it makes no sense that we elected representatives should totally delegate this responsibility to people who have not been not elected, particularly since this government very much had control over the appointment of the foundation's members. As well, this delays investments.

Municipalities throughout Quebec and Canada have proposed projects to their governments. Some have been approved by the Government of Quebec, but cannot be accepted by Ottawa because no money is available for investment. One might therefore have expected this in the budget.

Today, in the implementing bill, there has been a backtrack on this, because the government has realized that the foundation was not workable, and did not meet governmental accountability requirements. I think what was done was appropriate, but now we have another obstacle. Looking at the bill, we see that the government wants to invest directly in the municipalities, without going through Quebec City.

During today's oral question period, I was thinking about this and said to myself “I hope it is not true that we are headed for another hassle like the one over the millennium scholarship foundation. We will end up being forced to spend months and years negotiating to find a way to get the money to the municipalities of Quebec, and of course it will all be blamed on the Government of Quebec, taking advantage of this, the last year of its mandate. A fine way to strangle a government”.

The federal government is allowing the money to go to the English speaking provinces because they are not going to make a problem about it going directly to the municipalities. That is their view of Canada. But in Quebec we want infrastructure expenditures to be co-ordinated, so it would not yet be possible.

We are going to fight in order to bring the federal government at last, after the foundation idea, which made no sense, followed by the fund idea, which would have the money going directly to the municipalities, back to its senses so that it will decide—and I think this could be done very readily—to enter into negotiations in order to have the Canada-Quebec infrastructure program apply to this $2 billion fund.

This way, it would only take one or two days' worth of meetings. There is a mechanism that already exists that could be used to meet infrastructure needs.

And there are considerable needs to be met. In my riding, there are projects to protect water quality. These are important projects. This is a priority for everyone. I think that this work needs to be done in the short term, in order to avoid finding ourselves in a situation where we cannot obtain satisfactory results.

What would happen if in one year or in a year and a half, suddenly, we had another Walkerton situation on our hands and some municipality experienced a terrible crisis like the one that happened in Ontario? If that were to happen, a number of people would say that if they could have spent the money this year, if they could have carried out the projects this year, the situation could have been avoided. When we look at it this way, I would describe the government's attitude as somewhat irresponsible.

They are attempting to save face after realizing that the foundation was not working. Now, why not allow for this money to be quickly injected into the system so that it can quickly be spent? For this, I think that there is still another step that this government has yet to take.

I mentioned earlier that an implementation bill contains both good and bad measures. There is one measure that it contains, regarding employment insurance and parental and maternity benefits in some cases, which we support. It will help people who were hindered by a system that was too rigid and that prevented them from taking full advantage of their maternity or parental benefits if they left the hospital after several weeks. This situation will be rectified. There will be more leeway. This is appropriate.

But between this small step and what could have been done had the government agreed to implement the parental leave plan proposed by the Quebec government, there is a long, long way to go. On the one hand, we have this small measure, which, thankfully, will correct a situation, but on the other hand, there was a parental leave option that would have allowed all self-employed workers to be eligible.

In the end, all workers could benefit from it, whereas the existing federal parental leave program is not flexible. It provides for one year of benefits at 55% of the person's salary. It is not possible, for example, to have 40 weeks at 75%. Low income families might prefer to have that.

For instance, 55% of a weekly salary of $300 is not much. If people could at least get 75% for a lower number of weeks, that would be a start. This is an option that could have been included, but that the existing federal program does not allow.

I am asking the government to continue to look at the issue, so that it can arrive at a solution and agree with Quebec to establish this parental leave program, which several provinces in Canada want, by the way.

When Mme Goupil, the Quebec minister responsible for this issue, proposed this measure to her counterparts from the other provinces, the reaction was very favourable. It is hoped that the system will be operational as soon as possible. Why not begin with Quebec, which has often taken the initiative on social issues and has served as an example for the other provinces, and sometimes for Canada as a whole?

This is like the $5 a day daycare program. It is in the same spirit. We have got a lot of praise for this initiative which, among other things, has resulted in a significant drop in the number of single mothers who rely on welfare. Thanks to this program, these women can now go to work and have access to quality daycare services, at a much lower cost.

In this way, we not only fulfill the need to generate wealth but, in some ways, we are doing our share in ensuring that this wealth is properly distributed and in allowing people to make a contribution by using their potential. These are very appropriate efforts.

We must also get to the bottom of things as regards the impact of another aspect of this bill. We must find out what will happen with the surpluses. Initially, it was said that the foundation would have a budget of $2 billion. That was conditional on the amount of the surpluses. The $500 million fund for Africa would also be set up under the same terms.

On the basis of today's figures and given the practice that we have been seeing for the last few years, the Minister of Finance always announces small surpluses so that, at the end of the year, he has huge amounts with which to pay down the debt. We are not against money being used to pay down the debt but, during a major economic downturn, we would have liked to see some balance and to know the exact figures so that there could be an informed debate. Once again this year, this is not the situation we are being presented with.

During Oral Question Period, I asked the Minister of Transport about highway 185, the segment of the Trans-Canada between Rivière-du-Loup and Edmunston. In this budget, I was not necessarily asking that this particular highway be mentioned, but I would have liked to see more than the $500 million currently earmarked for Canada's highway system. Five hundred million dollars over five years is $100 million a year, which means, for Quebec, $25 million a year, when highway 185 alone, the Trans-Canada between Rivière-du-Loup and Edmunston, will cost a total of $500 to $600 million.

This highway is a deathtrap; 30 people have lost their lives on it in the last three years. With the disappearance of the railway line, this highway has had to serve an entirely different set of needs. Today, there is the heavy vehicle traffic of the Trans-Canada travelling from the maritimes to central Canada, as well as heavy local and tourist traffic. It is almost the only highway in Quebec where, despite my experience as a driver, I personally do not feel safe because I never know what is going to happen next.

I would have liked to see additional money in the budget for this, so that highway 175 or other highways could be maintained. This was one of the promises made during the election campaign—which was one year ago, not ten—by the Prime Minister himself, who promised that large amounts of money would be earmarked for highway 185; still today, nothing has been confirmed. It is hard to imagine how the Minister of Transport will manage to meet the needs in this area when he was unable to get the Minister of Finance to include additional money in the budget for this.

I hope that the money set aside for infrastructure will find its way into this area of concern, but there are many other needs. It would have been helpful to have this information in the budget.

For some weeks now, since before Christmas in fact, the Minister of Transport has had on his desk memoranda from the Quebec Minister of Transport on highways 185 and 175, and other highways in Quebec, saying “We will finance the project on a 50-50 basis, or since highway 185 is the Trans-Canada Highway, we will finance it on a 20-80 basis”.

The Quebec government has already invested $225 million. Money was spent last year, and more will be provided this year. But if we had an extra amount from the federal government, we could speed up the work. Larger amounts would be put toward engineering and architectural studies, so that work can be properly planned. We are still awaiting the government's answer but none has been forthcoming. There is nothing in the December 2001 budget implementation bill to that effect.

The budget also includes Canada's $500 million Africa fund to help reduce poverty, develop primary education programs and promote sustainable development in Africa.

In this area, we realize that in spite of all the rhetoric on the need to increase international aid and write off the debt of the poorest countries in the world, the federal government has not really increased our contribution to international aid. Yet, it would probably be the best way to permanently resolve crises like the terrorist crisis that we are facing now.

I do not believe that the long term solution would be to equip our military as it has never been equipped before. This is not the solution. Terrorists will always find ways to bypass the systems in place.

We must ensure that there no longer is a breeding ground for terrorism, a totally unacceptable behaviour. There must be a better distribution of wealth. Summits like those that took place last week must work toward common goals. I am thinking here about the Pôrto Alegre summit and the New York economic summit, which was usually held in Davos, Switzerland. The Canadian government has a responsibility to do its share in terms of international aid.

I have worked with various players in this field. The government organized round tables. We realized that, as elected representatives, we had to raise awareness of this issue in our communities. When there is not enough money for our constituents, they do not always understand why we should be giving money to other countries.

If we want to smooth the rough edges of globalization, we must ensure that people living in developing countries have the means to progress and to enjoy the benefits of our society, instead of only having the disadvantages and the low paying jobs. People must have access to adequate training and be able to use their skills in their own community. There is a lot of work to be done in this area.

Finally, with this budget, we see many contradictions in the finance minister's statement. In a few weeks, or in two months maybe, the government will have the financial results for the year. Again there will be huge surpluses, including surpluses coming from the employment insurance fund. I will conclude my remarks on this note.

Last fall, I was expecting to receive the report from the chief actuary for the employment insurance fund, as I had in previous years. In January, I still had not received it. I wrote to the minister asking her to send it to us. Two days later, the answer was “There is no report”. Four days later, I was told “Sorry, we made a mistake the first time. There is a report, a copy of which you will find attached”.

And to top it all off, it is obvious that the report was not produced by the chief actuary. The federal government has now decided that the chief actuary at employment insurance will no longer produce an annual report. For the next two years, according to Bill C-2, the government will be the one to set the contribution rate. This is a cover-up operation. Bill C-2 makes it possible to disguise the fact that there is too much money in the EI account. Every year, some $6 billion is taken from it to be used for other government expenditures. They have decided to eliminate that possibility and the public will no longer be able to ask any questions.

The second phase of the cover-up is that the decision was made in the fall for the chief actuary not to report any longer, and all this is because of Bill C-2. The Minister of Human Resource Development remains the one responsible, however, and there are questions that need to be asked in order to ensure that the fund will really be used to enable EI to serve the purpose for which it was created.

We are faced with a situation where, once again, there will be a four, five or six billion dollar surplus, despite the economic downturn, despite the economic fallout of September 11 as well as of the entire softwood lumber crisis and other such things. The means have not been put into place to enable our local workers affected by this crisis to stand behind the position of Quebec and Canada on this. Today, I have listened to what the Minister for International Trade has had to say. As far as his contacts with the Americans are concerned, I can say that it is all right, but they have had to be monitored very closely.

As for the necessity of worker solidarity, the government has not done anything. Today people are going to exhaust their EI benefits and within weeks or months there is going to be a terrible furore. What people expected to find in this budget was some measures that would in whole or in part reflect the plan proposed by the Bloc Quebecois, a recovery plan that would have made it possible to cope with these negative situations. That is nowhere to be found in either the budget or the 2001 budget implementation act.

For all these reasons and despite the positive elements in this omnibus bill, the Bloc Quebecois has no choice but to vote against ,it unless the government finally amends it. We have already made some gains. The concept of a foundation has been dropped. If we keep repeating our arguments, we may score more points. In the meantime, if the government does not change its position, our constituents would not accept our supporting a bill that does not provide for an adequate distribution of wealth.

For all these reasons, I hope many parties and members on both sides of the House will do just like the Bloc Quebecois. I hope that the Liberal member who spoke out against the tax on air transportation will think it over and vote against the bill, as we will do, because it is the best option for the time being.

Budget Implementation Act, 2001Government Orders

4 p.m.

Liberal

Roy Cullen Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

Mr. Speaker, I listened to the comments of the hon. member for Kamouraska--Rivière-du-Loup--Témiscouata--Les Basques and was pleased that he acknowledged some of the positive measures in budget 2001.

I wonder if the member perhaps inadvertently created a wrong impression with respect to infrastructure, because of course the strategic infrastructure program is an addition to the Canada-provincial infrastructure programs that are in place already. In fact, in budget 2000 the third infrastructure program was launched with over $2 billion. The intent of this new strategic investment in infrastructure is not really to deal with those projects that were not funded under the existing infrastructure programs but to deal with projects of national significance.

I am sure there are many projects in Quebec that have national significance. I know that in my province of Ontario there are many projects that need funding. For example, there are the corridors into the United States markets where our goods are travelling back and forth frequently. Of course the advantage of a foundation is that you are not posed the dilemma of lapsing funding every year. There is time needed to ramp up projects so they can be put in place. Nonetheless, the reorientation of the strategic investment program will give parliamentarians more hands on input. I know that I and others will be pleased to engage in that debate.

I have a question for the member. I wonder if he has any concrete ideas for strategic infrastructure investments in the province of Quebec which would be of national significance.

Budget Implementation Act, 2001Government Orders

4 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am grateful that the hon. member pronounced my riding's name correctly. I know it is a rather difficult because of the sheer length of it.

Now, maybe the hon. member was not here during question period or maybe he did not understand. First, the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Infrastructure and Crown Corporations said that we have not yet passed the bill we need to implement this program. Second, we need a procedure of some kind to determine which projects are really strategic.

In other words, the minister just told us that the existing Canada-Quebec financing program, with an equal contribution by the municipalities, the provinces and the federal government, does not apply in this case. We have to negotiate from scratch again. We may end up in a situation similar to the Canadian millennium scholarships, with negotiations between governments to reinstate a program. But in the end, the money will be spent much later.

I say that in view of the many projects now on the table—Quebec surely has some 50 if not 100 major strategic projects that could be funded under this program—if the agreement were signed tomorrow morning, all these projects would be under way within a month. Everybody would be in a position to move forward.

With the government's current decision, things will go slower than that. The hon. member is asking me whether there are major strategic projects. There are lots of projects. I know that in my riding there are major road construction projects. There are also some across the province and in other areas such as tourism and municipal works.

There is also the whole issue of water quality, which is a very majaor challenge. That will help ensure that we have quality products and a healthy population. That will also help ease the pressure on health networks.

So there is no problem with the projects and their quality. The only problem we have now is that federal money is not available because visibility is being sought.

As for us, we are able to live with a large maple leaf. That is not what is bothering us. Quebecers are so bombarded by federal advertising that they are not listening anymore. It no longer influences them. It has now become something of a broken record.

However, we want the projects to get underway and the money to be spent. At present, the only impediment is the federal government's indecisiveness, the fact that it wants to create a new operating structure. whereas the existing one would allow those projects to get under way very quickly.

Budget Implementation Act, 2001Government Orders

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

Mr. Speaker, my question to my colleague from Kamouraska--Rivière-du-Loup--Témiscouata--Les Basques will be quite simple.

We hear about a crisis in the softwood lumber sector. In fact, there is a major crisis in the forestry sector across Canada. Company profits are dropping and, to deal with that, to cope with the crisis, workers are turning to the EI system.

I would like my colleague to explain this program to me. In 1996, the federal government withdrew from the EI program, which now belongs to the workers and employers who contribute to it. But they have no control on it, as surpluses are transferred directly into the government's consolidated fund and used for purposes other than to improve the system at a time when the workers badly need it.

I would like my colleague to explain that to me if he can.

Budget Implementation Act, 2001Government Orders

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague for his question. Indeed, if we had a system controlled by the ones who fund it, that is employers and employees, we would find ourselves in a completely different situation as far as the crisis in the softwood lumber industry is concerned. We could have signed a MOU saying that, when a particular industry is faced with an exceptional situation, the number of weeks of benefits could increase, as suggested by the Bloc Quebecois last fall when the lumber crisis started.

Over a decade ago, the government was paying into the fund. At the time, it felt justified in saying that the government's unique interests should be taken into account. The government no longer pays into the fund, yet dips into the surpluses to cover other expenses unrelated to the EI program.

This is where the problem lies. The $5 billion it takes each year to cover other expenses, such as advertising campaigns, and all sorts of other expenses in the system, is money that is not available for workers and the unemployed who would need it when they are out of work.

It has been demonstrated that, as in all other sectors, less than 3% of the unemployed are cheats. Therefore, the solution to this problem is not a system that penalizes workers, that limits the period for benefits and that requires them to work a greater number of weeks in order to qualify. We had proof, when the intensity rule was abolished, that this was not the approach to take. People want to work. They want to have jobs.

Allow me to give an example. In my riding, in my region, there are 3,500 people every year who exhaust their EI benefits period and wind up in the gap, the period during which they receive no income. Meanwhile, the minister came to visit and announce a project that would allow 75 workers to find jobs. That is great for those 75 workers, that is a fine program. But what about the 3,400 or 3,500 with nothing? We need to find something, a balance to avoid the spring gap, so that our seasonal workers—who have worked for a certain number of weeks every year and who cannot do so because the industry in which they work cannot employ them—can receive benefits for enough weeks.

In my region, from 1992 to 1998, there was an annual drop of $100 million in benefits. Imagine the impact that has in terms of the distribution of wealth. It is not hard to imagine what kind of a difference that makes, in terms of the distribution of wealth. This instrument, or this role, is completely controlled by the government. It cannot blame it on the provinces if it does not work. It is not using EI to improve the distribution of wealth. It has broken the agreement that existed, the agreement between the resource regions and the central regions. Before, we guaranteed resource regions an employment insurance program for down times when there were no jobs. This allowed communities to survive. The government broke this agreement, without providing any opportunities for economic turnaround, which we should have been able to expect. This is why even a bill such as this one today contains none of the measures that the people in our regions wanted.

Budget Implementation Act, 2001Government Orders

4:05 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Myron Thompson Canadian Alliance Wild Rose, AB

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise and speak to Bill C-49. I would like to welcome the three Liberal members of this huge majority government to the sitting today. It is too bad we do not have more.

I promise those members who showed up that I will not try and bore them by talking about the budget with which they are very familiar. I will talk a little more about what is not in the budget, what is missing, what is wrong, and how it could be improved.

I know that the government goes through the motions. The government likes to take tours throughout the country and do a lot of consulting and visit with Canadians, so that Canadians can have input as to what should occur in this land.

Canadians are often asked what their priorities are. We all do that in our ridings. There is not a great deal of difference between Canadians from province to province and riding to riding. We are all on the same government structure. We pay the same taxes. Many Canadians pack their lunch, go to work, head down, elbows out, tail up and try to make a living and have a good standard of living to bring their families up and enjoy themselves. The priorities of Canadians are very similar in respect to what they would like to see.

The finance minister puts on a phenomenal speech every time he presents a budget. He is overwhelming in attracting the attention of the public with the way he puts it forward. Members would think that this status quo budget was the greatest and newest idea to have hit Canada in years, yet it has absolutely changed nothing.

Let us take a look at the list of priorities. They are not in any particular order, but they are the priorities I heard. The three members of the Liberal government majority here today would hear the same things in their ridings. They would hear that health care is important. Let us take a look at health care. When we were first elected in 1993 there was a deficit thanks to the Conservative government prior to the Liberals. The Conservatives kept the deficit going instead of reducing it as they said they would.

There was a commitment to reduce the deficit. How do we do that? Do we take care of wasteful spending, money that should not be spent in areas that might be considered nice to do, but certainly not spending money on areas that are totally unnecessary.

No, we did not do that. We kept the spending going. This particular budget has even got more money for what I call the flowery spending, the unnecessary stuff. There is a little here and there for some of the things that are necessary, but nothing for health. There is absolutely zero for health.

The government began reducing transfer payments to the provinces in 1993 and after a few years it finally got the House to balance the budget. There was no deficit for a year. It was done on the backs of transfer payments to provinces as well as increasing taxes at every opportunity.

We have had some good years now and a real economic boost. The government is showing huge surpluses and is bragging about that. It can brag but it must not forget that because of what it did to the provinces earlier on put a huge strain on them to be able to deliver health care. The provinces were unable to do it in the same manner that they could because of the severe cutbacks. We begin to ask that some of the surpluses be put back into health care to bring the levels back to the 1994 levels.

It is now 2002 and we still have not come anywhere close to the 1994 levels. By this time of course it is all the fault of the provinces. We have to blame the Ralph Kleins and the Mike Harrises and the likes throughout the provinces who have done their best to try and change the system so they can deliver and bring better service to Canadians. These cutbacks have produced huge lineups, days of waiting for operations, hip replacements, et cetera.

The government now has an opportunity to move once again. It did not bother presenting a budget last year, which is very unusual. I believe it is the first time in history.

We have had some good years. We have some surpluses. Let us put some money back into the transfer payments so the provinces can indeed do something more than they are able to do now.

When the health care system came into being, it was supposed to be 50:50 proposition; 50% funding by the feds, 50% funding by the provinces. Thanks to the government, we are now at 88% province and 12% federal, with no notion that the spread will narrow in any way. Certainly not in this budget. There is a zero increase for the spending in health care. I apologize. There were a few additional dollars for research. I agree with the necessity of good research.

In the meantime, we have huge lineups all across Canada. Every member in the House knows they have these problems in their ridings and in their provinces, yet nothing is done.

The next priority is education. We do not deliver a lot for education, but we do assist in every way that we can with post-secondary work. The revenue department has a lot of people working overtime as it passes over the student loan indebtedness that it created by giving out big loans to various students. It is now trying to collect them all back and is having a tough time doing that. It will have to get more help with that.

There is nothing of any significance in the budget to enhance post-secondary education programs, while at the same time, the cost of tuition for attending university and getting trained goes up and families struggle more and more to try to cope with the situation. There is nothing in the budget to address another priority of Canadians: good education.

Let us talk about taxes. We are the highest taxed nation among developed countries. If we are not the highest we are right on the doorstep of being the highest.

Canadians are looking for tax relief. They agreed to higher taxes in the beginning to reduce debt and control deficits. The deficit is taken care of. We have a balanced budget. Where is the tax relief? The finance minister announced huge tax relief. However, it is a strange thing. A phenomenon is going on.

I challenge everyone in this House and every Canadian across the land to take a close look at their pay stubs and compare them to a year ago. Everyone will find that there is a lot less money coming home than there was a year ago. This is all across the country. Some have done better thanks to different promotions or whatever. However in the majority they are getting less. Our standard of living is going down.

What is the answer? We have a great solution from the department of revenue. One of my favourite departments and everyone's favourite department.

We cannot hire more police for better security, we cannot hire more guards on the borders for better security, and we are running short of personnel in so many vital areas that they keep crying for more help. Yet the department of revenue has hired 9,600 new employees specifically to collect outstanding taxes and do further audits. Is that not wonderful?

There are young families across the country whose kids suddenly have a $3,000 dental bill that there is nothing they can do about. In order to pay the dental bill they become delinquent in their taxes. Yet the compassionate and caring Liberal government has hired more tax collectors and auditors. They will go after those delinquent taxes and make these families pay up. These are the families that visit our offices and come April 30 there will be a whole lot more visiting our offices. They will want to know what they can do because they cannot pay their taxes and they are being harassed daily.

Well, there is good news. Our compassionate and caring government has hired 9,600 high paid employees to collect this money. Those people who have a few dollars in their bank accounts should not be too sure that it will be there tomorrow because the revenue department can go in and take it whether people know about it or not. This is great, wonderful and free Canada. It is the land of pride and freedom. Yet people can lose their bank accounts just like that if the revenue department decides that is what should happen.

However, it goes beyond that. Members will recall the teddy bears that were taken out of a family's home. This young family could not pay its back taxes and was suffering. The government went in and took their furniture, their vehicles and even the kids' toys. It was talked about in the House for quite some time. That was a shame and a disgrace. Yet the caring and compassionate government allows these things to go on. In fact it encourages it by hiring another 9,600 employees.

I wonder how much longer Canadians will put up with the kind of attitude that comes from the other side of the House. I wish I could convince people not to put their x next to a Liberal name because it means disaster. It has been that way for years and it is getting worse.

It is tough for older couples who have been living in the same home for most of their lives to live on a fixed income and collect an old age pension. A fellow may want to do some work on a golf course by cutting the grass to make some extra money so he and his wife can enjoy retirement a bit more.

Lo and behold, the compassionate and caring government has news about a little extra income coming into fixed income families. The government has to make sure it gets its share. These people end up toddling into my office asking for help. They say they do not know how they can meet these commitments. They do not know what to do. I know what they can do. They can go on time payments. The government will set them up and they can pay it every month.

Then along comes the young family asking what they can do, saying they have three kids who all need serious dental work and they do not have a dental plan. The income tax people are down their necks day in and day out, constantly phoning.

When is this going to end? When will we get some tax relief? Why is it continually going up?

Members opposite say we have a tax break and ask whether we did not hear it in the speech. Look at the pay stubs, folks. It is not there. Why? Because for every dollar that was taken off income tax another $1.50 was added on the payroll taxes. CPP is going up. All of a sudden there is a big wake up call.

There is a $36 billion surplus in unemployment insurance or EI I guess we call it now. That is good news. Does that $36 billion not belong to the employees and the employers of the country? No, it does not, it belongs in the government's coffers. The person who truly deserves some employment insurance is having a terrible time getting help, while the government flounders away and wastes more money doing its little pet projects which support friends in the Liberal Party.

People are crying for better law and order and better services. Put the victims first and not the criminals. Stop protecting criminals so much. Porno movies and pizza are provided to penitentiaries in order to stop the inmates from rioting. That is what has to be done in Canada to keep control in a prison, bring in porno movies and pizza, have a new year's eve party so there will not be a riot.

A sex offender registry was a good idea a year ago but just the other night the government said it was not necessary. The wonderful, compassionate government killed that idea but it wants to keep the gun registry going. And it is so effective the criminals must be lined up by the hundreds waiting to register their guns. The government spent $700 million on registering guns. Is that not amazing.

We talk about security. We are worried that there are not enough guards at the border, not enough police. The G-8 summit is coming up. There are all these things to care about so $200 million extra was put in the budget to take care of the military, to take care of CSIS, to take care of the RCMP and to fight terrorists. But $700 million was spent to register duck hunters, farmers and trap shooters. There is $700 million to go after duck hunters and farmers and $200 million to go after terrorists. I do not think Canadians like that priority one bit.

It continues with the wonderful, caring, compassionate Liberal government which has about as much compassion as a coral snake. It should just pay attention to what is going on. People across the country are suffering. How many times have I brought to the attention of the House and how many times has the United Nations brought to the attention of the House, that there are third world conditions on the native reserves?

We have been fighting for years to get an ombudsman, someone to help the grassroots people on the reserves. They are truly suffering because of the corruption and mismanagement. If they have received any training from the government, then they have had real good training in mismanagement and corruption.

One of the Liberals recently said that if the member for Wild Rose had his way he would form a posse, jump on a horse and go after all these guys. I might do that, but the first thing the posse and I would go after would be the corruption right there on that front bench.

Maybe we need a posse to go after Mr. Gagliano. Maybe we should bring him back and make him accountable, but no, the government will not do that. When someone does something bad, it is time to move on. He was made the ambassador to Denmark. If something is done that is not quite so bad, the person can get a nice cozy seat in the bedroom down the hall called the Senate. The government will find some caring, compassionate, patriotic position.

When are Canadians going to stop allowing these things to go on? I have seven grandchildren. They are not very big yet but I hope before I go to my grave that Canadians will wake up and realize what kind of government has been ruling this land. I say ruling because the Liberals are rulers, not servants. The Liberals had better start learning whom they are working for. They are not working for themselves. They are not working for the bureaucrats. They are working for Canadians and they had better start reflecting that in what they accomplish.

Someone said that the budget was written by the Prime Minister, not the Minister of Finance. What difference does it make whether it was Tweedledum or Tweedledee? The whole notion of what is going on and how money is spent was pointed out quite clearly by the auditor general. She said that the government is wasteful and to stop it, that it is absolutely the worst managing government she has seen in a long time and to stop it, but no, it keeps on going.

I have had just about enough of it. I sure hope that 30 million Canadians are with me on that one.

Budget Implementation Act, 2001Government Orders

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Roy Cullen Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

Mr. Speaker, I know the member for Wild Rose gets caught up in his rhetoric from time to time, but I wonder if he was actually reading the budget for 2001 when he made his notes because his comments did not really reflect what was in the budget.

One aspect that he totally ignored was the $2 billion tax deferral for small businesses until 2002. This will help small businesses pay their tax bills.

The member talked about payroll taxes. Of course the EI premiums have come down since 1994, saving employees and employers about $7 billion a year. In fact in budget 2001 EI premiums came down again. Yes, the CPP premium did go up, but to try to intimate that the net change in payroll taxes goes farther than the income tax cuts is total nonsense. We all know that in budget 2001 the tax cut of $100 billion was protected. That was because we listened to Canadians. That means a Canadian family will save about 27% in their personal income taxes.

The member talked about the elimination of the deficit. Yes, the government has eliminated the deficit because of the good management of the finance minister. Perhaps the member forgot about the some $550 billion in debt that is still outstanding. Our government has brought down the debt to GDP ratio from 71% in 1994-95 to less than 50%. It is actually an economic miracle. The member opposite conveniently forgets the fact that notwithstanding those superb accomplishments, we still have to pay attention to the debt.

The bottom line is we have to have some balance in our approach to the budget. We cannot just forget about the people who need support. We cannot forget about investing in infrastructure. We cannot forget about preparing Canadians for the future in terms of innovation, training, science, research and development because that is where the future lies. In the budget the Minister of Finance has struck a very fine balance.

Does the member not understand or appreciate that corporate taxes in Canada are going to be about four to five percentage points lower in the next couple of years compared with the major U.S. states? Does he not understand that the average Canadian is going to save 27% on their personal income tax bill? Does he not understand that we have to go after tax cheaters and the underground economy?

It would probably be that very member who would stand in the House and say there is a big underground economy and ask what we are doing about it. I will tell him what the government will do about it. We will send auditors out and I am sure the cost of those auditors will be repaid many times over. When someone does not pay the GST or their income tax, that puts an unfair burden on the taxpayers of the country who are trying to be fair and honest with their tax returns.

Budget Implementation Act, 2001Government Orders

4:30 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Myron Thompson Canadian Alliance Wild Rose, AB

Mr. Speaker, I did not conveniently forget anything. The budget really is not worth talking about. What is in there is very minimal.

In terms of the tax collectors, the government is hiring 9,600 more people. This is not to fight underground economies. We know what it is for. There is a $12 billion tax deficit that needs to be collected and it happens to be from good, hard working, honest Canadian businesses, men and women who get harassed daily. The government wants that money. The Liberals will do anything to get their hands on money. Boy, do those guys love money.

Let us talk about the debt for a minute. Had it not been for the Liberal government in the beginning, there never would have been deficit spending to begin with, but that was the thing to do. Then the government changed to the Conservatives and they liked the idea so they did it. Then it went back to the Liberals and they did it even more. Then it went back to the Conservatives and they did it. It was back and forth for 40 years until we ended up with a $600 billion debt. The Liberals are now saying they are the wonderful people who are going to come along and fix it. They are very slow about it. And they started it in the first place.

I mentioned my seven grandchildren. I am afraid it will be their grandchildren who will end up paying off the debt at the pace the government is going. It has missed opportunities over and over again in the last five years when the economy was super with surpluses pouring in. Instead the government pocketed it.

The member talked about the reduction in EI. Then why do we still have a $36 billion surplus? The Liberals think it is their money. That is how they reduce the debt a little bit. That is how they get rid of the things they should do to some degree. They took the Canadian taxpayers' money. They took the employers' and the employees' money to reduce the debt. That money should have been returned to where it came from.

A lot of businesses in my riding would love to reduce their payroll taxes. If they were able to do that, they might just be able to show a better profit than they are capable of doing right now.

However, the government has the kind of power to go into people's homes and take their belongings. They are not underground criminals. They are honest, hard working taxpayers who have become delinquent on their taxes through no fault of their own in a number of cases. However, our compassionate, caring Liberal government will look after it.

The member talked about the deferrals. It is amazing that in the same breath he said “Look what we have done. We have provided deferrals to small businesses so they can pay their taxes”. How about a deferral so they can make a decent living? It is always to pay their taxes.

People will have to pay an extra $24 on their airline tickets. That will put small airlines out of business, but that is the business caring Liberal government. A normal flight of $60 from Calgary to Edmonton will now cost so much that people will drive to Edmonton from Calgary. It will save them money. Guess who suffers? The airline industry that is providing this service to people and it is doing a fine job of it. WestJet is doing a fine job. Maybe it should run the government for a while and the government would learn how to manage its money.

Budget Implementation Act, 2001Government Orders

4:35 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

It is my duty pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the question to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment is as follows: the hon. member for Pictou--Antigonish--Guysborough, Anti-terrorism Legislation.

We will now proceed to the next stage of the debate, limiting members to a maximum of 10 minute speeches without questions or comments.

Budget Implementation Act, 2001Government Orders

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Roy Cullen Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

Mr. Speaker, obviously the member for Wild Rose has not read the budget.

I would like to focus on some of the realities of budget 2001 because I think that Canadians listening to this debate would be quite confused. We need to look at the context of that budget. When the finance minister stood up in the House on December 10, 2001, we had a slowing economy and we had the terrible events of September 11.

The House of Commons finance committee travelled across Canada. This is what Canadians have asked for, that the members of parliament reach out to the west, to the east, to Quebec, to the prairies, right across Canada, and listen to what people have to say. I was at those meetings. Canadians told us that they wanted the government to deal with the national security agenda and protect the $100 billion tax cut and the $23.4 billion set aside for health care and early childhood development, and they told us they did not want us to put Canada into a deficit.

When the finance minister stood up in the House on December 10, he delivered. He responded to the priorities of Canadians. Therefore I can tell the member for Wild Rose that he is absolutely wrong to say that the finance committee goes across Canada and listens but does not really have any impact on the budget, because the finance minister and the government did listen to Canadians.

In addition to that, because of the finance minister's good financial planning and prudence and with his contingencies, the government was able to find money to put into research, innovation, investments and strategic infrastructure. That strategic infrastructure investment will have many benefits. It will make us more competitive. As well, as we ramp this program up it will create jobs and economic activity.

All Canadians and all provinces have ideas about what kinds of strategic infrastructure investments are required. I am sure there are very worthwhile national projects in Quebec. I know there are very worthwhile national projects in Ontario and in the west and in Atlantic Canada. There has to be a process to assess them and to move as quickly as possible to respond in the most meaningful way, because these are taxpayers' dollars and they will be spent well by this government, as has been done in the past.

We talk about taxation. The finance minister protected the largest tax cut in Canadian history. As I said earlier, he also deferred to 2002 some taxes for small business in order to help small business, which clearly is facing some challenges this fiscal year. If we add up the tax cuts and the stimulus to the economy through infrastructure and R and D, that is a stimulus this year of about 2.4% of GDP. One does not have to be an economist from the University of Laval or the University of Toronto to understand that 2.4% of GDP is a very large stimulus to the economy. In fact, next year it will go up to 2.8% and will be more than what is being discussed in the congress and the senate of the United States. They are still discussing it. We are actually putting it into action, so that at the same time our debt to GDP is coming down from a high of 71% in 1994 to below 50% in 2002.

We have more to do on our debt, but the fundamentals are coming together. The debt in relation to the size of our economy is shrinking and it is shrinking very fast. I am sure that with the change in the budget from a foundation for strategic infrastructure to an annual appropriation, there may well be some surplus funds in the upcoming fiscal year that will end in March. Because the foundation idea will not be pursued I am sure there will be some surplus funds and they will be applied against the debt. As the debt comes down, the amount of interest that the government has to pay against the debt is reduced. To date, with the $36 billion that this government has paid against the debt, Canadians are saving $2.5 billion a year in interest costs. The money that will be saved this year as a result of debt reduction will be applied to the strategic infrastructure program as those projects come through. They are vetted in a way that looks for economy, efficiency and bang for the buck. We want to make sure we have the best investments to benefit all Canadians.

There are some things that have gone unmentioned in the House with regard to this budget. A member opposite said that nothing had been done for aboriginals. The member obviously had not read the budget because there was significant emphasis placed on helping aboriginal children in their communities and on head start programs.

With regard to health care, former premier Romanow has just come out with his interim report confirming what we on this side of the House have said all along. It is not so much a question of pouring more money into health care. These are taxpayers' dollars. The pressure will become even more intense in the future with the changing demographics. There will be more older people. As well, improved technology means we will have higher expectations. What we must have is a health care system that is sustainable into the future. That is why our government signed a $23.4 billion agreement with the premiers last October. That is why we need to look at things other than quick fixes and throwing money at health care. Compared to other countries, Canada is right at the top in terms of how much is being spent on health care per capita, but if we look at the value we are getting from our health care system, Canada drops to about fifteenth or twentieth.

We need to look at improving the delivery of our health care system. That is why the provinces and the federal government agreed to a set of principles last fall. That is why we all have to work together to make our health care system more efficient and accessible and affordable for all Canadians.

It is incredible that when we debate health care members opposite refuse to acknowledge that tax points are delivered to the provinces every year. These are tax points that we ceded. The federal government told the provinces to take the tax points and it would back out of that area. The tax points were to be used to fund health care, post-secondary education and social programs.To just ignore tax points in the discussion is absolutely scandalous and the people of Canada deserve better than that. We of course have cash transfers as well, which can be used as leverage against the provinces if they do not respect the principles of the Canada Health Act and medicare in this country. I am sure we will continue to do that.

There were provisions in the budget for apprentice mechanics facing challenges with respect to the cost of their tools. This government responded in a very constructive and very fiscally prudent way by providing in the budget measures allowing apprentice mechanics to deduct the extraordinary costs of their tools so they can get on with their lives.

A $1 billion investment in science and technology and research was included in this budget. The government also put up roughly $200 million to help universities and post-secondary education institutions across Canada with their overhead costs and administration costs. This goes hand in hand with the money put into research and development. As well, there are now 2,000 university chairs across Canada and the Canada Foundation for Innovation received $3.5 billion. This, plus the help with overhead, will help these institutions fund research.

We have an excellent budget. I would like to hear more candid comments, real comments, from across the floor.