House of Commons Hansard #159 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was flag.

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PrivilegeOral Question Period

4:50 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Let me give my assurance to the House that the Chair has in fact taken this matter very seriously, from the outset when the question of privilege was first raised by the parliamentary secretary. The ruling will reflect the seriousness of the matter. I am sure that it will be made in the most reasonable time allowable to in fact give it the serious consideration and study that is required.

I wish to thank the hon. Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and the hon. member for Toronto--Danforth, on whose issue within the context of one of the interventions from an opposition member I will again recommit myself to reviewing the blues and returning to the House if it should be necessary.

I want to thank the hon. member for Portage--Lisgar, the hon. member for Renfrew--Nipissing--Pembroke, the hon. member for Lakeland, l'honorable député de Beauport--Montmorency--Côte-de-Beaupré--Île-d'Orléans pour leurs interventions, and also let me not forget the hon. member for Langley--Abbotsford, the House leader of the official opposition. I thank everyone for their participation and also their co-operation in what has been a sensitive and difficult matter to deal with, particularly from the context sometimes of what is parliamentary and not parliamentary within the confines of our Chamber under normal circumstances, understanding that I think the latitude was fairly distributed. I thank members for their co-operation.

I would like to return to the debate on the official opposition motion. The hon. member for Calgary Southeast has approximately three minutes remaining in his debate, with five minutes of questions and comments.

The House resumed consideration of the motion.

SupplyGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Jason Kenney Canadian Alliance Calgary Southeast, AB

Mr. Speaker, before question period I was reiterating the record of the Progressive Conservative Party on the Kyoto accord and quoting at some length from transcripts, from here and at the environment committee, of the environment critic of that party and the leader of that party who clearly and consistently have since 1997 supported the Kyoto accord. In fact during question period my friend from Fundy--Royal challenged me to come up with a quote where he actually explicitly supported the accord. He has been very artful about trying to play both sides of the field, but not artful enough, because he actually let honesty get the better of him on March 5, 1999, when he said in the House:

The Minister of Finance should step into the real world and see that climate change is for real and so is the Kyoto challenge. The truth of the matter is that we are 25% behind our goal and environmental issues continue to be a low priority for this Liberal government. Another Liberal budget has just passed and so has another opportunity for the minister to take concrete action to combat climate change. When will this government put an end to its paltry environmental record and announce new and significant economic instruments so Canadians can meet their Kyoto target?

What could be clearer? I do not know. He then went on to state:

A target a decade or more away is likely to become irrelevant as the science continues to evolve. However the PC party will accept reaching 1990 levels by the year 2010 as an interim target--

I understand. If he opposes Kyoto, it is because the targets are not aggressive enough and the economic damage done is not big enough. His own leader said in a recent op-ed on February 20:

Should it be made evident, following an analysis of the impact and the costs of the Kyoto protocol...I will actively support ratification.

That is the comment of the leader of the fifth party.

Finally, in a press release today the member for Fundy--Royal very clearly said in regard to the Tory Party:

We would have engaged in more constructive debate...on the need to postpone any decision on ratification--

It is quite clear that the member from the Tory Party and his party are consistently in favour of this devastating accord. We will not be fooled by the political trickery of their trying to support this motion.

In closing, pursuant to Standing Order 26(1), I move:

That the House continue to sit beyond the ordinary hour of daily adjournment for the purpose of considering the supply motion in the name of the member for Red Deer.

SupplyGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

If I could just beg the indulgence of the House to deal with another housecleaning item before 5 o'clock, it is my duty pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the question to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment is as follows: the hon. member for Acadie--Bathurst, National Defence.

The House has heard the terms of the motion. Will those members who object to the motion please rise in their places?

And more than 15 members having risen:

SupplyGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

More than 15 members having risen, the motion is deemed to have been withdrawn.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

John Herron Progressive Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Mr. Speaker, I tried to be quite judicious in my earlier comments. The hon. member for Athabasca has made some constructive comments in the debate as has the hon. member for Red Deer. However we have seen the hon. member for Calgary Southeast sink to an all time low. It is indicative of the company he keeps in terms of people like Ezra Levant and his dear friend from Calgary Southwest.

I will talk about--

SupplyGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

John Williams Canadian Alliance St. Albert, AB

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I thought we were debating an environmental issue, not talking about friends of the hon. member for Calgary Southeast. I ask that the hon. member restrict his remarks to the issues before the House.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

If we are talking about relevance, I have seen it stretched to the limit from time to time. In fairness the hon. member was just warming up. I am sure he would have gotten to the relevance of the question before the House today.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

John Herron Progressive Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Mr. Speaker, I will talk about the flip flops we have seen from the Canadian Alliance in terms of its position.

The Alliance Party had a protracted debate challenging the science with respect to climate change. It asked whether there was discernible human influence or proof that carbon dioxide was causing climate change. Alliance members are now saying they endorse it. The member for Esquimalt--Juan de Fuca stated here in the House earlier that he wanted to go beyond Kyoto in terms of carbon dioxide reductions. That has been another change. We have seen a flip flop of massive proportions.

The only party in the House that ever proposed a carbon tax was the Reform Party. Bill Gilmour, the former Reform critic, was quoted in the Ottawa Citizen on October 24, 1997 as saying environmental taxes could be part of the equation if they were dedicated. Reform and the hon. member for Calgary Southeast advocated carbon taxes at one point in time. I call it the Kenney-Levant-Gilmour tax.

Why does the hon. member spend so much time worrying about the Tories when it is the government we need to hold to account? We cannot have blind ratification of the accord without a sector by sector, province by province impact analysis and a provincial consensus. That is the minimum we owe Canadians. Canadians need to know the behavioural expectations the Government of Canada would put on them.

On what date did the hon. member begin to believe in the science of climate change?

SupplyGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Jason Kenney Canadian Alliance Calgary Southeast, AB

Mr. Speaker, it is peculiar that the Tory environment critic would say I have sunk to a new low. My entire speech consisted of quotes from his words in the official parliamentary transcript. He thinks that is a new low and I can understand why.

I did not focus my remarks on the government because its position is absolutely clear. The Minister of the Environment has been clear that he is in favour of ratifying the accord the government has negotiated. It does not care about the disastrous economic consequences. It does not care about the fact that other countries including the United States are not signing on.

One party in the House has tried to have it both ways. That is a level of political dishonesty I will not accept. The hon. member says he supports economic instruments so Canada can meet its Kyoto targets. He says the PC party would accept reaching 1990 levels by the year 2010 as an interim target. He says Kyoto would be an interim target.

His leader said if certain studies were commissioned and done and more talk and blabber went on he would actively support ratification. In the hon. member's news release today he suggested we needed to “postpone any decision on ratification”.

I commend the Minister of the Environment who is absolutely clear about the issue. He wants to ratify. He does not care about the jobs that would be lost. However the member of the Tory Party is trying to have it both ways. It is clear from the record that he supports the Kyoto protocol and does not care about its economic consequences. Shame on him for trying to shade it. Why does he not come out and tell us he thinks the Kyoto protocol should be ratified and that it is merely an interim target? He wants binding, job killing targets that go beyond Kyoto. That is what he said on the record.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

John Herron Progressive Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Mr. Speaker, the Progressive Conservative Party of Canada is saying that regardless of whether we are part of the Kyoto protocol, as a modern country and a modern society we must have a plan to ensure we live up to our responsibilities in the world community of addressing the challenges of climate change.

My attack is not directed toward the government at the moment, but it has been unable to develop a plan in the context of the last five years. Until it has tabled an implementation strategy of which Canadians know the impact on a sector by sector, industry by industry, province by province basis, and until we know the plan can get us there, I am not advocating that we ratify something the Government of Canada has no plan to implement.

The Progressive Conservatives are trying to have a balanced approach. If the Government of Canada can demonstrate it has a plan which can get us there without evoking serious economic harm we will look at it. However we are not in favour of blind ratification. We never have been. The hon. member can look through his notes as much as he wants but he will not find a quote. We have never supported blind ratification.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Jason Kenney Canadian Alliance Calgary Southeast, AB

Mr. Speaker, I spent ten minutes and then another two answering the hon. member's first question. I quoted the PC party as saying it would accept reaching 1990 levels by 2010 as an interim target. The party's leader said if more studies were done he would actively support ratification.

The hon. member is like a watermelon. He is green on the outside but red on the inside. In 1997 he said:

--we need drastic initiatives or policy changes in culture in order for us to get to any hope for civilization by the year 2010.

The hon. member should be ashamed of himself. As a watermelon he should stand and take pride in his support for destroying the Canadian economy through the accord.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Order, please. Does anyone care to listen to the Speaker? I do not know how members can expect to be heard when I am standing.

If the hon. member for Lac-Saint-Louis is rising on a point of order I will hear the point of order. However I will put something on the table. The proceedings this day on the official opposition motion must conclude at 5.15 p.m. and the question must be put.

I have indication from the government side that the Minister of the Environment is the next to speak. That would leave him five minutes and then I must make a ruling. If we can put aside any other procedural matters I will give the floor to the hon. Minister of the Environment.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Victoria B.C.

Liberal

David Anderson LiberalMinister of the Environment

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to contribute to the debate. It is an important one. I am amazed the Alliance has managed to filibuster its own motion on an opposition day, a motion critical of the government.

The Alliance motion is based on three premises, all of which are flawed. First, with respect to the United States, Ambassador Cellucci said today in the

Globe and Mail:

A major component of our international (and continental) effort will be co-operation with Canada. On March 7, the United States and Canada announced an agreement to expand and intensify our existing bilateral efforts to address global climate change...This can benefit both our environments and both our economies. I look forward to working closely with Canada's political leadership to see that North America is as innovative in addressing climate change as it always has been in responding to global environmental and economic challenges.

The ambassador reaffirmed the president's commitment to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change and its goal of stabilizing greenhouse gas emissions. The article reads:

--Mr. Bush reaffirmed the U.S. commitment to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change and its central goal, to stabilize atmospheric greenhouse-gas concentrations at a level that will prevent dangerous human interference with the climate.

The United States is taking action. As the ambassador has made abundantly clear, we are working extremely closely with them. I will skip the remaining paragraphs of the ambassador's interesting article. However I urge all hon. members to read it.

Second, the motion makes flawed assumptions about the costs of ratifying the protocol.

In recent months, there has been a wide range of estimates thrown around regarding the impacts of ratification on the Canadian economy. Many of the estimates were built on old data and old assumptions, and not on the most recent elements of Canadian plans or the Bonn and Marrakesh agreements.

This part of the motion focused solely on out of date studies and costs which are irrelevant to the issues we must face tomorrow. The federal provincial territorial Analysis and Modeling Group of the National Climate Change Process co-chaired by the federal and Alberta governments is working to complete its analysis of the economic costs and benefits of the Kyoto protocol. As I said in question period in response to a question from the Alliance, we expect to have its results at the end of April or early May. They will provide the most current understanding of the issue.

This is why the motion is so inopportune at this time. As we have said time after time, we are waiting for the federal provincial territorial group to finish its work. We cannot come to the same conclusions as the Alliance motion because the work has not yet been completed.

We should recognize that a number of companies have done excellent work in reducing greenhouse gas emissions and thus the threat of climate change. British Petroleum has reduced emissions between 8% and 10% over the last four years. According to the British deputy prime minister the value of the company went up 640 million pounds in the same period. It is not impossible.

The scaremongers in the Canadian Alliance who assume Canadian companies are incapable of competing with international companies deny we can do what other nations can. However Canadian corporations are doing just that. There are many examples. Alcan is one. It is doing a great job.

Third, the motion says Kyoto would do little or nothing for the environment. That is rubbish. It is an international agreement involving about 179 countries. It is the first step in the process of reversing a trend which has been taking place for the last 200 years. It is vital that we start now.

Points of OrderGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I am now prepared to rule on the point of order raised on Monday, March 18, by the hon. member for St. Albert concerning the procedural acceptability of vote 6b under Public Works and Government Services in Supplementary Estimates (B), 2001-02.

I would like to thank the hon. member for St. Albert for having drawn this matter to the attention of the Chair and to thank as well the hon. President of the Treasury Board for her contribution on this subject.

In raising this issue the hon. member for St. Albert pointed out that the one dollar item in vote 6b under Public Works and Government Services concerning the optional services revolving fund is included expressly for the purpose of amending section 5.5 of the Revolving Funds Act, Revised Statutes of Canada, chapter R-8 as amended.

He pointed out that dollar items, that is amounts of one dollar which are included in the estimates to authorize various sorts of financial transaction using only existing funds or financial authorities, may be used only for certain very specific purposes. The hon. member for St. Albert cited House of Commons Practice and Procedure at page 733 which states:

Supplementary Estimates often include what are known as “one dollar items”, which seek an alteration in the existing allocation of funds as authorized in the Main Estimates. The purpose of a dollar item is not to seek new or additional money, but rather to spend money already authorized for a different purpose. Since “estimates” are budgetary items, they must have a dollar value. However, because no new funds are requested, the “one dollar” is merely a symbolic amount. Dollar items may be used to transfer funds from one program to another, to write-off debts, to adjust loan guarantees, to authorize grants, or to amend previous appropriation acts.

The citation continues:

The inclusion of one dollar items in the Estimates also gave rise to the issue of using Estimates to “legislate” (i.e., Estimates going beyond simply appropriating funds and attempting to obtain new legislative authority which would otherwise require separate enabling legislation through the regular legislative process, outside the Supply procedure).

Previous speakers have ruled very clearly concerning the procedural acceptability of legislating by way of an appropriation act. The hon. member for St. Albert quoted from a ruling by the hon. Speaker Jerome on March 22, 1977, who stated at page 607 of the Journals:

--it is my view that the government receives from Parliament the authority to act through the passage of legislation and receives the money to finance such authorized action through the passage by Parliament of an appropriation act. A supply item in my opinion ought not, therefore, to be used to obtain authority which is the proper subject of legislation--

The Hon. President of the Treasury Board pointed out in her remarks that, as the hon. member for St. Albert stated in raising this matter, explicit permission to amend the Revolving Funds Act by an appropriation act is provided for in the Revolving Funds Act itself. She went on to provide a number of examples when such amendments have been approved in this way.

That, I point out in passing, is the solution to the difficulty raised by the hon. member for St. Albert concerning the amount that is being affected by the recurrent request. Section 5.5(3) of the Revolving Funds Act as it appears on the justice department website indicates that the amount in the optional services revolving fund by which expenditures may exceed revenues is $200 million.

In vote 6b the government is seeking the approval of parliament to reduce the amount in that section from $75 million to $35 million. The justice department website was last updated on August 31, 2001, at which time the figure of $200 million was accurate. In December 2001 parliament, by approving Appropriation Act No. 3, 2001-02, approved the reduction of that amount from $200 million to $75 million. What is now before the House is a request to further reduce the amount from $75 million to $35 million.

As the hon. President of the Treasury Board indicated, section 12 of the Revolving Funds Act which authorizes the amendment of that act by an appropriation act was approved by parliament. Parliament has in fact used this method of amending the Revolving Funds Act on a number of occasions, as recently as this past December as I have just indicated. There exist therefore both statutory authority and past practice of the House to justify the current method of proceeding. This applies to votes 7b, 8b and 9b as well as to vote 6b. Under these circumstances I cannot find that the hon. member for St. Albert's point of order is well founded.

In addition to a ruling on the specific issue before us, the hon. member, in raising this matter, sought some guidance as to how our rules concerning one dollar items are to be understood. It might be useful in this regard to return to the words of Speaker Jerome.

In addressing the request for a decision concerning the use of one dollar items he stated at page 606 of the Journals of March 22, 1977:

--this conflict leads to some consideration of the function of the Chair, which is not to dictate what Parliament can or cannot do but, rather, to ensure that what Parliament attempts to do is procedurally correct.

In a subsequent ruling on the issue of one dollar items Mr. Speaker Jerome outlined the basis for separating substantive legislation from the supply process at page 184 of the Journals of the House of Commons of December 7, 1977:

--it has long been a tenet of the House that supply ought to be confined strictly to the process for which it was intended; that is to say, for the purpose of putting forward by the government the estimate of the money it needs, and then in turn voting by the House of that money to the government, and not to be extended in any way into the legislative area, because legislation and legislative changes in substance are not intended to be part of supply, but rather ought to be part of the legislative process in the regular way which requires three readings, committee stage, and, in other words, ample opportunity for Members to participate in debate and amendment.

He continued at page 185:

The point at issue is whether the...items seek legislative authority which does now exist or does not exist...The test to which I put them is whether or not in these items the government is putting forward a spending estimate under authority it already possesses, or whether it is seeking new legislative authority for these...items.

In the present case parliament has given its approval to the Revolving Funds Act following the usual legislative process, including the provision in section 12 which permits modification of the dollar limit in the optional services revolving fund by way of an appropriation act.

With respect to the question raised earlier today by the member for St. Albert concerning the necessity of debating the measures contained in the supply bill, I simply point out that in permitting that amendments be made to the Revolving Funds Act by an appropriation act, section 12 makes no suggestion that any other than the normal supply process be followed.

Members have the opportunity to give detailed consideration to the estimates at the committee stage. Further, there is nothing to prevent any party from making consideration of any part of the estimates the subject of an opposition supply day motion. Finally, the House could under our rules as currently framed choose to debate the supply bill at its various stages on the final supply day, provided it did so before the end of government orders and within the parameters contained in the standing orders.

Under the circumstances, while I commend the hon. member for St. Albert for his admirable vigilance in matters related to supply, I can see no justification to depart from our usual practices in this case.

The House resumed consideration of the motion.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

It being 5.24 p.m. it is my duty to interrupt the proceedings and put forthwith every question necessary to dispose of the business of supply.

The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

All those opposed will please say nay.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Call in the members.

(The House divided on the motion, which was negatived on the following division:)