House of Commons Hansard #181 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was c-55.

Topics

Firefighters' PensionsPrivate Members' Business

5:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Hear, hear.

Firefighters' PensionsPrivate Members' Business

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Oak Ridges, ON

It is bad enough when the opposition claps. I have to say that when colleagues on this side clap it hurts.

First, I will say that the government will be supporting the motion.

Firefighters' PensionsPrivate Members' Business

5:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Hear, hear.

Firefighters' PensionsPrivate Members' Business

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Oak Ridges, ON

Now members can clap. That is good. Excellent.

Briefly I want to say that I would like to take the opportunity to pay tribute to the member, who has worked with great tenacity on this motion, and I also want to pay tribute to Canada's firefighters. All Canadians recognize the invaluable contribution made by firefighters to the safety and security of our nation. The horrific events in New York City on September 11 and their dire consequences were a sober reminder of the courage and dedication of our firefighters. Many firefighters lost their lives while carrying out their duty that day.

Canadian firefighters and others have made a significant contribution in the aftermath of that tragedy. Indeed, every day in this country firefighters risk their lives to protect Canadians' safety and property. It is important that we recognize that.

The government is committed to considering the issues that have been brought before us. We are committed to working with the firefighters, particularly on the issue of the context of the structure of their pension plans, and on other issues that have been brought before the House. In this regard, the government clearly recognizes the importance of protecting public safety. That is why the tax rules contain special pension provisions for those in public safety occupations, including firefighters.

It is possible for firefighters' pension benefits to be increased under the existing rules. In light of this fact, the government has been working with firefighters to resolve the issue and it continues to do so. Indeed, we want to thank our colleagues for their support and in particular the member for Dufferin--Peel--Wellington--Grey.

I would urge all of my colleagues in the House to support the motion and vote in favour of it.

Firefighters' PensionsPrivate Members' Business

5:50 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Maurice Vellacott Canadian Alliance Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK

Mr. Speaker, the motion before us today from the member for Dufferin--Peel--Wellington--Grey has real merit. The difficulty then, as he sits on this side of the House at this point in the debate, is the fact of asking the government to “consider the advisability”, and therein lies a little bit of a hook, “of increasing the pension accrual rate for firefighters to allow them to retire with adequate financial provisions for their retirement”.

With all due respect to my colleague who has brought forward a very fine motion here, I have said that the government should just get on with it and do the job, never mind “to consider” or to look at increasing it. I have a concern that this will go before the minister and so on, and there will be consideration, delay and stalling, and who knows when finally we will get this kind of thing in place?

Aside from that, and that could be a big one, the purpose of this motion, which is to have the government look into increasing the percentage of income firefighters are allowed to put into their pension plans under the Income Tax Act, is something that has real merit and certainly I would support it.

As has been mentioned here by others before today, members of the International Association of Fire Fighters have been lobbying for this change for a number of years. They have been in our respective offices. They have talked to the minister. Seemingly they have had assurances. Early on maybe he was not very aware of what the concerns were or they were not getting to his attention for some reason or another. Now I think it has his attention. I understand that within the last few months this has received his attention, so thankfully it is at a more advanced stage.

The Income Tax Act currently allows individuals in public safety occupations, such as firefighters, police officers, corrections officers, air traffic controllers and commercial airline pilots, to retire at age 55 without penalty. However, the IAFF is arguing that the current pension rules do not allow firefighters to put away enough money for their pensions for them to retire at age 55 with 70% of their income. The best that can be achieved is roughly 60% of income for their pensions.

Just for a moment here, in relation to our party's policies over a number of years, I want to give some asides with respect to retirement and retirement security.

I think it is important to comment on retirement security. We value retirement security as a vital element of independence. We, the Canadian Alliance Party, have been clear about that, although I know it has been torqued and twisted by others in other directions.

Without question I want it on the record today that if we as a party were in government we would honour obligations under current state run programs for retired Canadians and those close to retirement and would maintain support for low income seniors. We would also provide future retirees with a greater choice between a government managed pension plan and mandatory personal plans. We would also, and I think this is important to say, increase the foreign investment restriction for retirement investments and allow individuals a greater opportunity to save for their own retirement, giving Canadians greater control over their own affairs.

If this motion were to pass, and then there is the big if, and if the government really got serious about getting something through on this, the firefighters would still have to win the extra pension benefits through their collective bargaining benefits negotiating process. Hopefully we are all aware that they have that obstacle or hurdle to overcome at some point. Nevertheless, provincial and municipal governments should be and in fact would be consulted because the extra employer portion will have to come out of their budgets.

However, if this motion passes it opens up the door. If the government is doing more than just playing games on this, if it is actually serious about getting ahead and doing something, not just considering, not just looking, then I think our firefighters, those who are here in the gallery today and others, will have that benefit that they have been pushing hard for.

I think that many members on all sides of the House, in the different respective parties and certainly within the Canadian Alliance Party, would be supportive of that for these hardworking people who are courageous and who lay their lives on the line on behalf of Canadians on a regular basis. I, with many of my colleagues as well no doubt, am supportive of the motion for some very good reasons.

Firefighters' PensionsPrivate Members' Business

5:55 p.m.

Haliburton—Victoria—Brock Ontario

Liberal

John O'Reilly LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence

Mr. Speaker, I want to perhaps bring a little levity to the debate in a short time. In my former life I spent six years as a part time firefighter with Lindsay Fire and Ambulance. Believe me, it is a very dangerous and time consuming job. I could go into many stories, which I am sure the people in the gallery have all heard, about roofs collapsing, barns burning and all the things I faced as a firefighter. It is a profession in which every time a bell sounds one's life is on the line. For that reason I fully support the motion.

I want to assure the opposition that I have been one of the lobbyists for the firefighters. I have talked to the finance minister. He has given me his commitment that he would deal with it expeditiously. I believe him to be a man of his word. I think this will go ahead. I think all party support for the motion will push it forward. We have been lobbying on behalf of the association, on behalf of ourselves and on behalf of the member for Dufferin--Peel--Wellington--Grey on Motion No. 326.

I would just like to let the House know that for other people here, and maybe there are other firefighters in this place, I am not sure, I have to say that I do not think members could support anything that would give them any greater satisfaction. I want to bring that to the attention of members.

In my former life, I was also a finance chair of a municipality. Of course in all provinces, every contract, benefit, wage and everything that comes before a municipality is part of the collective agreement system. I do not think we are lacking the knowledge that there will be an extra burden of financial hardship in municipalities in some cases, but I think this is where we spend the money. This is where we get the best results. When we get down to asking firefighters to do what they do, we have to ask ourselves if we are doing what we should be doing to assist them. As a former firefighter, I want to bring that to the attention of members.

Firefighters' PensionsPrivate Members' Business

6 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Brian Fitzpatrick Canadian Alliance Prince Albert, SK

Mr. Speaker, I support the initiative and the thrust of the motion. This has been going on for at least eight or nine years, I surmise. Firefighters have been to Ottawa on an annual basis and I have often wondered what kinds of interests the government is trying to protect in that it does not free this thing up and allow this sort of thing to happen. Who is behind the scenes and who is doing it?

We have made some gains, but I want to throw out a word of caution on the whole thing. Personally I will support the motion, but it is worded “consider”. We have talked about what the age of consent for minors should be and the government has told us that it is a complex matter and we should consider and study it. It has studied this for nine years. We have had the same thing arise with the defence of artistic merit on charges of pornography. It has studied that for nine years without any action, so I am a little worried about the word consider.

I wish the motion were worded so that we would take immediate action to implement this now and not throw it into more studies, more committees and more considering. These folks have been very patient on this issue. They have been working at it very hard. To me, the word consider is a big loophole in the motion and I wish the motion were straightened out.

Firefighters' PensionsPrivate Members' Business

6 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Jay Hill Canadian Alliance Prince George—Peace River, BC

Mr. Speaker, I too am a little concerned with the process we are using here tonight. Obviously there are some firefighters up in the gallery who are probably sitting there wondering just what the h is going on with this debate. This is what unfortunately happens when a good issue that should be handled properly through the right process is not handled properly. This is an example of that.

I want to say at the outset, as my colleagues have said, that I am extremely supportive of this. I have been lobbied, as have other members of parliament from all parties, over the last number of years. It is ironic that the Canadian Alliance and before it the Reform Party has been supportive of this initiative to increase the pension accrual rates for firefighters. We have been supportive of that all along.

It is Liberal members and cabinet members who have been dragging their heels and not doing anything about this over the years. They will say that they have been lobbying the appropriate ministers and the Prime Minister behind the scenes to get some action on this, but the reality is that they have opted to do nothing on this.

As my colleague from Prince Albert has asked, what is the motion that the hon. member for Dufferin--Peel--Wellington--Grey has put forward? I support taking immediate action, as my colleague has said, and doing something proactive and productive and getting this in place for our firefighters, but the motion says, “That the government consider the advisability of increasing the pension accrual rate...”.

How many times in the nine years that I have been a member of parliament has the government used this ploy to shuffle stuff off to committees, study it to death and nothing would happen? If the government were serious about this then let us pass a motion here tonight that would actually do it.

What have we got? We have a few Liberal members who stand up and say that they had a conversation with the finance minister and it is pretty much a done deal. Well, we have been down this road before. What ends up happening is that it gets shuffled off, some committee researches, analyzes and debates it, and nothing ever ends up happening. I would hate to see that happen to such an important issue but that seems to be where we are headed.

The hon. member for Dufferin--Peel--Wellington-Grey wants to take advantage of this issue for some political points. It is an issue of tremendous importance to some people for whom all of us have the deepest respect. All members in the House would support accomplishing this. Not to consider the advisability of increasing it but actually passing the laws to increase it. Let us do it. If the Liberals were serious about it, we would do it.

Firefighters' PensionsPrivate Members' Business

6:05 p.m.

NDP

Bev Desjarlais NDP Churchill, MB

Mr. Speaker, our debate seems to be a little more prolonged than some of us thought it would be. I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak on this important issue.

I understand the frustration my colleagues from the Alliance are feeling and I have only been here five years. We believe that because a certain motion is voted on in the House that it would go through and we would see some action from the government but nothing happens, not just week after week, month after month, but year after year. It is frustrating, and I fully understand that.

However, in my time here, almost five years now, I have come to recognize that sometimes we have to achieve little steps and do whatever we can to ensure the government follows through. If that means pushing the government into a smaller corner so that it has to follow through then sometimes we have to do that.

On an evening when we all thought that for once we would see this one step further, and quite frankly I hope that it is more than one step further on this important issue. I do not have the greatest faith in the government following through but it is one step further.

I think we all have it in us. The firefighters have been a tremendous lobbying force. The fact that there will be a Liberal leadership race going on will give that extra little push to make sure the government follows through.

I do not want us to lose this advantage. I sincerely hope that we do not get caught up in one of these debates from the other side and jeopardize the opportunity for firefighters to be financially secure, to retire that much earlier so that they could get out of this type of working situation. They are there giving their lives for us in a good number of instances. We should not make them stay there any longer. By passing the motion we can give them the opportunity to retire that much earlier.

Firefighters' PensionsPrivate Members' Business

6:05 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Monte Solberg Canadian Alliance Medicine Hat, AB

Mr. Speaker, I would like to stand and acknowledge the fantastic work that firefighters have done. Other members have alluded to that in this place. We all recognize in the wake of not only September 11 but in their everyday heroics that we read about so often that they truly deserve to be recognized in many ways.

Certainly this issue of improving the accrual rate on pensions is one way to do that. I believe there is virtual unanimity in this place that it should happen. We are concerned about the weaselly way the government is proceeding on this.

I remember a couple of weeks ago when the member for Winnipeg--Transcona rose during question period when all the firefighters were in the gallery. He said to the finance minister that everyone agreed on it, why was it not happening? What did the minister say? He said we were studying it. What does this motion ask the government to do? It asks it to study it. What is the point of that? It is already studying the whole thing. If we were to do this, I say we should do it. Therefore, I move:

That the motion be amended by deleting the words “consider the advisability of increasing” and substituting the following:

“increase”

Firefighters' PensionsPrivate Members' Business

6:05 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The Chair will want to take a few minutes to ensure that procedurally everything is in order, so I will take this under advisement.

Firefighters' PensionsPrivate Members' Business

6:10 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Ken Epp Canadian Alliance Elk Island, AB

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Before I begin speaking, does the member for Medicine Hat have the opportunity to continue the debate in order to put forward the argument for his motion?

Firefighters' PensionsPrivate Members' Business

6:10 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The Chair is in a difficult situation. From a procedural point of view and from general practice members conclude their interventions by presenting amendments. That is a signal that an intervention is concluded. The only venue available to us, and perhaps in the spirit of this debate I can only suggest that the hon. member for Medicine Hat seek unanimous consent to conclude his remarks and we will proceed from that point.

Firefighters' PensionsPrivate Members' Business

6:10 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Monte Solberg Canadian Alliance Medicine Hat, AB

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I seek unanimous consent to be allowed to finish my intervention and explain why I moved the amendment.

Firefighters' PensionsPrivate Members' Business

6:10 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Is it agreed?

Firefighters' PensionsPrivate Members' Business

6:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Firefighters' PensionsPrivate Members' Business

6:10 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Monte Solberg Canadian Alliance Medicine Hat, AB

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak to this again. I really want to speak to why it is important that we deal with this issue immediately.

I do not know how many times in this place we have passed motions during private members' business only to see them go off to be studied to death and then completely disappear. We all know that this issue in particular is one that has been around for a long time and has never been dealt with. It would do wonders for the credibility of private members' business and of this entire place if we actually did something, if we did not just talk about things but actually put something in the legislation.

Today we had a big debate in the procedure and House affairs committee about a motion that my friend, the member for Esquimalt--Juan de Fuca, had brought forward. We all know the story. He felt his motion was hijacked. I think he was right. We were not allowed to vote on it. A lot of us saw it as a way to undermine private members' business. Following that there was an exchange in the House between the Leader of the Opposition and the government House leader during the Thursday question where the government House leader said that he wanted to find a way to make private members' business work.

We have had numerous discussions in this place where there has been a consensus that we need to find a way to ensure that private members' business becomes effective.

Now we are in a situation where we have unanimity in this place about what needs to happen with this particular issue. I think everyone agrees that we want to move this issue forward, the idea of increasing the accrual rate to ensure that firefighters and others who are in a situation where, because of the hazards of their job, they do not live as long and therefore are asking that they be allowed to retire earlier. I think there is tremendous sympathy for that position in Canada.

We have a chance today to do something about it. I urge members across the way and opposition members to do exactly that.

Firefighters' PensionsPrivate Members' Business

6:10 p.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Before you make a ruling on the admissibility of the amendment, I would ask that you entertain the fact that this amendment does not have royal recommendation. The very specific amendment that the hon. member moved is a money matter and it flies in the face of private members' business. What he has done is a poison pill that would kill the motion. The amendment cannot be voted on because it does not have royal recommendation.

Firefighters' PensionsPrivate Members' Business

6:15 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The matter is still under advisement. I will rule when we come to a final decision.

Firefighters' PensionsPrivate Members' Business

6:15 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Maurice Vellacott Canadian Alliance Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I would draw to your attention that this has nothing to do with money directly. It would be an issue for the provinces and the municipalities hereafter. It would not be a burden on the public coffers at all. Therefore that would be out of order.

Firefighters' PensionsPrivate Members' Business

6:15 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I think I have the matter under control. There has been good co-operation and I hope we can maintain that spirit that has prevailed largely over this past 45 minutes. We have 15 minutes more maximum.

Firefighters' PensionsPrivate Members' Business

6:15 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Monte Solberg Canadian Alliance Medicine Hat, AB

Mr. Speaker, I simply have to address my friend. There is no poison pill here. If the amendment is not accepted, then the regular procedure takes place. There is no question the motion will come to a vote. It ultimately will come to a vote. That is not an issue. It is a votable motion.

As my friend from Peace River points out, the government can make this a votable motion at any time. It could make it government legislation. There is nothing stopping it. If there is unanimity on the government side, why does the government not do it? The finance minister claims he has been studying this for months and months. Why does the government not make it government legislation? It could happen at any moment.

I want to make it very clear that the official opposition supports this motion. We just do not want to study it forever and ever. It will bring my friend great accolades if it passes, but I can say that in the long run it will languish like things always do. Let us do it now. If people are in favour of it, let us get it done.

I will conclude by saying that when the firefighters were here not very long ago and we discussed this issue, they were very thoroughly prepared. I had a good chat with Bob Collier, a firefighter from my riding. We all went to the reception. It is likely that just about everyone in this place went to the reception afterward and talked about this issue. There was a real spirit of goodwill on this whole issue. That is not the question. The question is, do we want to consider the advisability or do we want to do it? I say it is time to do it.

Firefighters' PensionsPrivate Members' Business

6:15 p.m.

Bloc

Yvan Loubier Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Mr. Speaker, I believe that here, in the House—

Firefighters' PensionsPrivate Members' Business

6:15 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Order, please. As I have not ruled whether or not the amendment is in order, I must interrupt the hon. member.

If I rule that it is in order, the hon. member could of course speak again on a second round.

The hon. member for Elk Island.

Firefighters' PensionsPrivate Members' Business

6:15 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Ken Epp Canadian Alliance Elk Island, AB

Mr. Speaker, I am also delighted to support the motion as amended because I too value very highly the work of firefighters. The case they make for increasing their accrual rate so they can retire five years early is a compelling argument. They face many hazards and dangers to their health as they fulfill their lives as firefighters and they end up reducing their lifespans. They want to retire earlier so as to enjoy more years of their retirement. I have always felt that was a very compelling argument and have always been in favour of it.

We need to recognize in this particular instance that as my colleague from Medicine Hat has pointed out, the motion is one of non-action. It is a way for the government to say that if the motion passes, it will consider it and think about it. It reminds me of when I was a young man with a young family. When my kids would ask me for something, I would say I would think about it. It is a very polite way of saying no.

For the government to consider the advisability of it is simply a way of saying it wants to think about it but it does not really want to do it. I think we ought to do it.

We ought to also be aware that there is a considerable cost. If we look at it actuarially, it will cost money. I approve of that. Firemen and firewomen, or whatever the technical term is--