House of Commons Hansard #190 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was corruption.

Topics

Interparliamentary DelegationsRoutine Proceedings

10 a.m.

Liberal

Charles Caccia Liberal Davenport, ON

Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 34 (1), I have the honour to present to the House, in both official languages, the report of the delegation of the Canada-Europe Parliamentary Association to the second part of the 2002 ordinary session of the parliamentary assembly of the Council of Europe, held in Strasbourg, France from April 22 to 26, 2002.

PetitionsRoutine Proceedings

10:05 a.m.

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-De- Beaupré—Île-D'Orléans, QC

Mr. Speaker, I wish to present a petition signed by rural mail couriers. These people often earn less than minimum wage.

They are calling for their working conditions, which are reminiscent of another era, to be adjusted.

PetitionsRoutine Proceedings

10:05 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Rick Casson Canadian Alliance Lethbridge, AB

Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36, I would like to present two petitions in the House today.

Both of the petitions, signed by hundreds of people, call on the Government of Canada to state that the creation and use of child pornography is condemned by the clear majority of Canadians and that the courts have not applied the current child pornography law in a way which makes it clear that such exploitation of children will be met with swift punishment.

Questions on the Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

10:05 a.m.

Leeds—Grenville Ontario

Liberal

Joe Jordan LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister

Mr. Speaker, I ask that all questions be allowed to stand.

Questions on the Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

10:05 a.m.

The Speaker

Is that agreed?

Questions on the Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

10:05 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

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10:05 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

John Reynolds Canadian Alliance West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, BC

moved:

That, in the opinion of this House, the reason why 69% of Canadians polled in a recent survey viewed the “federal political system” as corrupt is because Ministers of this government have failed to make public their secret Code of Conduct, have broken their own Liberal Red Book promises such as the one to appoint an independent Ethics Counsellor who reports directly to Parliament and have failed to clear the air over allegations of abusing their positions to further their own interests and those of their friends.

Mr. Speaker, it is with a heavy heart that I stand in this place to speak to this topic. It is a great Canadian tragedy that a government that promised so much has delivered so little to so few, unless the deliveries were to friends and cronies, and then too much was delivered.

Yes, we remember only too well the words of the Liberal Party leader in 1990. He said, and I quote from the February 2 edition of the Ottawa Citizen , “I am not interested in patronage because I am a Liberal”. Those words haunt us today. Well they haunt him more than they haunt us but we should all remember them.

Let us look at this spotless record since 1993. Since assuming office the Prime Minister has sent more grateful Liberals to the Senate than Canadians thought existed. When the Senate was full, he outdid the previous prime minister by appointing them to every public post he could unearth or create. Membership always has had and still has its rewards.

The Prime Minister has established a patronage record of which all Liberals can be proud, a record unlikely to be surpassed by any prime minister in this millennium.

Let us go back to May 3, 1976, and Maclean's magazine. When a constituent was awarded a road construction contract over a lower bidder from outside Saint-Maurice, the then Liberal cabinet minister, now Prime Minister, said “In all honesty, I can say I would prefer that the contract go to a fellow in my own riding”.

What do you say, Mr. Speaker, after you say you are not sorry?

Why should he express regret? He has filled so many Liberal hearts with joy and their pockets with dollars that only a bitter individual would not be filled with self-satisfaction. If we think about how Santa Claus feels once a year, we get an idea of how the Prime Minister feels every day of the year.

When the RCMP investigate grants, including many in the Prime Minister's riding, he told the Montreal Gazette on March 16, 2000, “It is not allegations of big fraud here”.

There is big fraud and there is little fraud and no prime minister has time to waste on the small stuff as evidenced by those words.

To put this another way, the Prime Minister was assuring us that he never sweats the small stuff.

Let us move quickly to the present after establishing the Prime Minister's credentials on this subject. I repeat that it pains my heart to have to stand in this place to talk about this cornucopia of corruption. I am sure Canadians regret as much as the Prime Minister that his government is incompetent even when it comes to corruption but they certainly are skillful when it comes to cover-up.

Let us talk about the recent past. Groupaction Marketing, Groupe Everest and Lafleur Communications Marketing are three Montreal firms that have thrown close to one-quarter of a million dollars at the Liberal Party since 1997. They beat out six other firms for big, fat, juicy government contracts. How much did the other six give the Liberals? Only about a quarter of that amount. Those firms did not know the Liberal number one rule of business: “You have to give it to us if you want to get it from us”.

How much did these successful firms get in government business? They received $158 million in government contracts. It was a terrific return on a $250,000 investment in the Liberal Party.

Groupaction, a corporate love child of the Liberals, received $550,000 from public works in early 1999 for an advisory report on government sponsorship opportunities which vanished into thin air. Segments of it were found, according to Groupaction, and these segments were turned over. However there are suspicions that the contents were nearly identical to the contents of another Groupaction report commissioned in late 1999 for $575,000. We are curious. Is that an environmentally friendly approach to pork-barrelling? Do the Liberals now simply tell their contractors to recycle the previous paperwork?

Excuse me, Mr. Speaker, I got so excited I threw my notes on the floor, but they did not disappear and we did not pay $575,000 for them.

Now there is the present ambassador to Denmark, the jolly Mr. Gagliano. Why would he not be jolly? He did what the Prime Minister wanted him to do. What was that? The Prime Minister has said that it had to do with saving the country. Following that Herculean task, Mr. Gagliano was given Denmark as his reward, either that or it was a safe haven.

Former public works minister Gagliano however was accused of meddling in the affairs of Canada Lands Company, a federal agency that supposedly reports to parliament.

Jon Grant, the former chairman of the company, bravely stepped forward with several allegations, including that the minister insisted Canada Lands hire one of his friends and key political organizers. Mr. Grant said he was told everything outside Quebec was the responsibility of Canada Lands but anything inside Quebec was the domain of the minister. It sounds like an old song. The minister pointed at a map of Canada and sang, “This part belongs to Daddy”.

The Prime Minister is no stranger to political lobbying. He admitted he called the president of the Business Development Bank of Canada whose job existed at the Prime Minister's pleasure. The phone call was about loans to a former business associate of the Prime Minister, loans that did not meet the normal policy or criteria of the bank. The loan was granted after the Prime Minister applied sufficient pressure. The former president of the bank has testified under oath that when he wanted to call in the bad loan he was suddenly out of work.

I hear the Prime Minister saying that is not true. We have a man who has sworn under oath that this is what happened. Who lowered the boom? Perhaps when he rises to speak the Prime Minister might want to enlighten us on that.

I am reminded of the words of Shakespeare, and I know William would not mind if I paraphrase, “The evil that men do lives after them. The good is oft interred with stories about their loans”, or words to that effect.

Who can forget the grants? The auditor general has confirmed that the Prime Minister announced a $600,000 grant in his riding just prior to the 1997 election that had not been approved by the department. This is the auditor general saying that the Prime Minister got the grant without having it approved by the department. That business has since gone bankrupt, much like all those promises of integrity and honesty and how the Liberals would govern.

Then there was the grant to Auberge Grand-Mère, a hotel beside a golf course in which the Prime Minister held an interest, contrary to HRDC guidelines. An e-mail from a government employee explained that the Prime Minister had already promised it and added, “I would like to give another answer, but I have no choice”. I wonder where he is today, possibly Baffin Island.

It pains us on this side of the House to have to review this long list of government incompetence and waste and ethically challenged decisions. It pains Canadians too, obviously, because 70% of them think that the government is corrupt. How very painful that must be for Canadians that when they hear the word Liberal, the first word that comes to mind is corruption.

We cannot forget the $25,000 the finance minister returned. What Canadians are unable to grasp is the logic in this. If there was nothing wrong in accepting the $25,000, why did the finance minister send it back? Was $25,000 too trifling an amount? How much money is being sent to other leadership hopefuls by firms doing business with their departments or any other departments of government?

All the work we have done on access to information trying to find out the conversations between the Minister of Finance and the ethics counsellor has come back saying that there is nothing recorded, just conversations I guess.

The sponsorship programs are another fiscal nightmare. Who knows how many millions have been spent sponsoring how many events in how many locations in Quebec? We do not have the answers, but we do know, and the Prime Minister should admit it, that all of that money was shovelled out in the electoral interest of the Liberal Party or as payback to good old friends of the good old Liberal Party.

We were fascinated to learn that the Canadian sportsmen's shows, in existence for over 40 years, did not get a single penny from the government, although they staged shows in Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Toronto, Quebec and Montreal. Yet in Montreal, Le Salon National du Grand Air got according to one media report $1.3 million. That show is run by Groupe Polygone. Who once worked for Groupe Polygone? The present minister of immigration who is also the senior pork barrel minister for Quebec. Why did the older, bigger and more established show get nothing? It was not told there was sponsorship money available. Why was it not told? Only a cynic would suggest it was because it never contributed to the Liberal Party.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

You are a disgrace. You should be ashamed of yourself for saying stupid things like that.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:10 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

John Reynolds Canadian Alliance West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, BC

There is the minister saying we should be ashamed of ourselves. The government should be ashamed.

This is a firm that has been in business for 40 years and did not get one penny from the government to support what it was doing in Canada. The friends of the government did and they did not ask. It is amazing that they did not ask. However lots of other people did.

The national sportsmen's show spokesman was reduced to a whisper when told the Groupe Polygone show received over a million. He said individuals who give them $75,000 for a full sponsorship get their name and logo plastered from here to eternity. He could not imagine where all the logos, flags, pictures of the Prime Minister and perhaps pictures of Alfonso Gagliano would be hung for that kind of money.

The government of Quebec kicked in $25,000 to that show and received as much exposure as the Liberals received for $1 million. That is what Canadians are upset about. We have nothing to be ashamed of on this side of the House for bringing that kind of thing to the floor of the House.

For its money Quebec got two booths, newspaper ads and a plastic pool where kids could try to catch fish. Groupe Polygone obviously caught a fish, the species we call the federal Liberal sucker. What did the Liberals get? An aboriginal booth and a logo display for $1 million. There is no comparison. That is why we need an independent inquiry to look into this mess. Those questions have to be asked.

Let me touch on the subject of volunteer firefighters in Canada. It has always been a great method of the Liberal government to attack the opposition because we also ask for grants sometimes for our constituents, which is part of our job as MPs. The volunteer firefighters are brave, selfless individuals who contribute much to many communities around the world.

I wrote a letter in support of their request for matching funds for the sponsorship program because they are having an international gathering on Vancouver Island. Some 3,000 of them from around the world and about 3,000 from Canada are meeting at a convention. My letter of support was hauled out and used as evidence by the Deputy Prime Minister that all members of parliament tried to solicit funds for events in their ridings.

The Liberals are complete strangers to British Columbia. They did not realize that my riding is on the mainland and not on Vancouver Island. It is called an island for another reason, and it is one. It is an insult to the volunteer firefighters across Canada and around the world. The Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister should apologize. The firefighters did not get any money but they are bringing lots of people here.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

John Manley Liberal Ottawa South, ON

I will apologize on your behalf for the double standard.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:15 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

John Reynolds Canadian Alliance West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, BC

There is no double standard. The difference here is that we are talking about people getting grants from the Liberal government and kicking back funds to the Liberal Party for the money they received. We are not getting one penny back from the international firefighters. We are doing it on behalf of Canada. That is the difference between that party and this side.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:15 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:20 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

Order, please. It seems that the subject at hand is quite popular. We want to hear everyone who wishes to speak on this matter and anyone who wishes to will have the opportunity to do so. In the meantime let us listen to each other, let us co-operate and let us have a bit of decorum.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:20 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

John Reynolds Canadian Alliance West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, BC

Mr. Speaker, the truth does hurt and I can understand why they have to yell a little.

Then there is the present Minister of Public Works and Government Services who has, like Quasimodo, been muttering “sanctuary, sanctuary” as a certain cheque seemed to slip like greased lightning from hand to hand until it wound up soggy from sweat and laundering in the hands of a priest. Members will recall the words of the heritage minister in Hansard of September 1, 1988:

--this has to be an unbelievable joke on the part of a Government whose recent history spells corruption of people who sought to take full advantage of the system.

Those were stinging words back then and the sting still remains.

Let me repeat that this has to be an unbelievable joke on the part of a government whose recent history spells corruption of people who sought to take full advantage of the system. That is what we are talking about today. That is what the heritage minister was talking about back in those days when the government of that day was abusing its power.

That is why we brought the subject up again in the House. That is why the auditor general's report is asking for an RCMP investigation. We are doing our job. That is why I quoted the heritage minister.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:20 a.m.

Liberal

Sheila Copps Liberal Hamilton East, ON

You are a disgrace.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:20 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

John Reynolds Canadian Alliance West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, BC

She yells across that we are a disgrace. I am proud to be a disgrace if that is what she thinks it is because I want to ensure that the people of Canada find out why there are kickbacks from the government.

The public works minister must wince when he recalls those words of his rat pack partner. How many Canadians winced when they learned the Liberals were using the church as an avenue of recourse and refuge to solve their little cheque crisis?

I saw the piece of paper that came out yesterday with the date of when the cheque was written and how many hands it passed through. Is it not amazing how it ends up in the hands of a priest a few weeks later and no one knows whether it has been cashed or not? It is reprehensible behaviour and tantamount to blasphemy to launder money that way.

How low will the government go? There is no answer. The Prime Minister personally demonstrated time and time again that the bar could be stepped over. Is it any wonder that his cabinet ministers were not aware of the existence of any bar? Unless and until he rises to announce that a committee of the House will be assigned the role of recruiting a full time ethics commissioner who will report only to the House, Canadians will continue to believe he does not know that the definition of transparency does not include the word opaque.

We have asked many times to have an ethics commissioner who would report to the House of Commons, not a counsellor who writes answers for the Prime Minister in question period. We want someone who reports to parliament, who is totally independent of everyone in parliament but reports to all of us.

We are heavy hearted. We are saddened that no matter what the Prime Minister announces when he stands to speak, the reputation of himself and his party is tarnished so badly that not even a gallon of Brasso will bring back the lustre.

I will leave him with the thoughts of William Shakespeare, and again I paraphrase. The evil that men do lives after them. Whatever good they intended is interred with stories about loans, grants, untendered contracts, barrels of pork, patronage appointments, toothless ethics counsellors, wastage of hundreds of millions of tax dollars through Liberal friendly firms, broken promises, hypocrisy, $10,000 a head meet the Prime Minister Montreal weekends--

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:20 a.m.

Liberal

Jean Chrétien Liberal Saint-Maurice, QC

It was $25,000 for Stockwell Day last year.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:20 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

John Reynolds Canadian Alliance West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, BC

--last minute Hail Mary guidelines on ethical behaviour, golf courses in Quebec, canoe museums, Auberge Grand-Mère, and helpful priests.

The Prime Minister yelled across $25,000. We have never charged $25,000 a ticket for anything. The most we have ever charged in this party is $2,500 for a leader's dinner. Perhaps it was a table for 10.

It cost $10,000 a head to meet with the Prime Minister on a weekend. I think an old age pensioner gets a little more than that in a whole year. A soldier's widow gets about $1,400 a month. To pay $10,000 to meet with the Prime Minister is unacceptable in this country.

The list goes on: Alfonso Gagliano, untendered contracts to handle publicity for francophonie games, $25,000 sent back by the finance minister, fundraisers for the heritage minister, and buying access to the Prime Minister for a mere $10,000 each.

We can list conflicts of interest, questionable ministerial ethical behaviour, leadership fundraising activities and memories of a rat pack that once talked only about integrity in government, not to forget a Prime Minister who once made many promises, none of which have been kept. The House has demanded many times that we have an independent ethics counsellor who reports to the House.

It is amazing to watch the minister for heritage, who is yelling across the floor. When she was in opposition she climbed over tables to get at the government because it was doing things that were not correct or proper at that time. It is our duty to bring these issues up so Canadians can have a chance to have them investigated properly.

Why can we not have an independent ethics counsellor to report just to members of parliament? Why can we not have an independent inquiry into this mess so Canadians can get to the bottom of it?

We look forward to hearing the Prime Minister speak this morning. We hope he will bring to Canadians some of these issues so we can start to clean up this corruption in government.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

Mississauga West Ontario

Liberal

Steve Mahoney LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Infrastructure and Crown Corporations

Mr. Speaker, if I might, I would like to ask the hon. gentleman a question. It seems to me that the allegations being made are an attempt to perhaps hide some of the problems that have arisen on that side of the House. When members start casting aspersions, as these people have done, it reflects upon all of us. I would suggest that one of our members may have climbed over a table but she did not slide under it the way those people have.

I would like to ask the member to respond to the flip-flop on pensions. They came to the House saying that they would reject the pension. They got here, went right up to the trough and dove in. I would like to ask him about not accepting a car and driver for the leader and not accepting Stornoway as the principal residence.

It seems to me that if there are problems of ethics, frankly they are on that side of the House and they are hurting the reputation of this place and every member in it.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

Jean Chrétien Liberal Saint-Maurice, QC

What about Stornoway?

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

John Reynolds Canadian Alliance West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, BC

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister yells across “What about Stornoway?”. I was pleased to live in Stornoway like most other opposition leaders since Confederation. The new leader of our party is pleased to live in Stornoway.

The Leader of the Opposition, like the Prime Minister, has a driver but he does not have nine police cars following him around because he does not need them. He lives in a great, free country where Canadians respect him.

They talk about burying things under tables--

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:30 a.m.

The Speaker

Order, please. It is very difficult to hear the hon. member who has the floor. I know that the debate generates a lot of enthusiasm but we do have to hear the person who has the floor. Perhaps if fewer people spoke at the same time we would be able to do so.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:30 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

John Reynolds Canadian Alliance West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, BC

Mr. Speaker, let us get down to the realities of this. The opposition brought up Shawinigate. Out of that there was a police investigation. Two people were charged and convicted. That happened because that side of the House was involved.

This side of the House brought up the issue before us now just a few weeks ago. The minister of public works called in the auditor general after a lot of pressure from the opposition, and now we have a police investigation. That is the job of the opposition.

When I was elected in 1997, I said I would take my pension. I am just like every member in the House. I said before that if the member for Vancouver Centre deserves a pension, then this member of the House deserves a pension. We all should have the same pension. That has always been my philosophy.

They really get upset over there because we are bringing up issues that police are now investigating. That would not be happening without the issues that are going on over there. The opposition is doing its job. We are proud of the job we have done and we look forward to the next few weeks in the House.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:30 a.m.

Mississauga South Ontario

Liberal

Paul Szabo LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Works and Government Services

Mr. Speaker, I think the House would agree that the issue the opposition has raised today is an important question to address for all Canadians.

I remember some years ago someone told me that the role of the opposition was to deliver blows that would tenderize a turtle. We do have a presumption of telling the truth in this place. In the motion the corruption allegation refers to the federal political system. However the record will show that the questions of the opposition have always referred the 69% to the Liberal government, not to the federal political system. This is part of the opposition spin.

Members of parliament come to this place to represent the companies and constituents of their area and lobby very fiercely. In fact the member for West Vancouver--Sunshine Coast recently wrote to the Minister of Public Works and Government Services to praise the sponsorship program and to ask sincerely for support for a donation or a sponsorship in his own riding. We understand that is part of the process.

We also have allegations of kickbacks. Yet all members well know that the political donation system is an open and transparent system and there is a public record that shows everyone who has given any money to the public system.

With those examples as backdrop of how we have the presumption of telling the truth in this place, we also have to have the presumption of innocence until proven guilty. Will the member please rise in his place and say that he respects those principles?

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:30 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

John Reynolds Canadian Alliance West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, BC

Mr. Speaker, we all respect those principles and we respect each other in the House. The fact of the matter is that even a Liberal poll done last week showed that 45% of the people think the government is corrupt. Yes, 69% of people think political people are corrupt because of the type of action that is taking place here right now. That is why we brought up the issue.

I quote the Minister of Canadian Heritage again when she said:

This has to be an unbelievable joke on the part of a Government whose recent history spells corruption of people who sought to take full advantage of the system.

That is what this is all about. Those were Tories. There was no question about that and the minister brought it up. I am saying the same thing is happening right now. That is why we want an independent ethics counsellor in the House. We have been asking for it. If we had that, it would solve a lot of these initial problems because we would have someone to be on the look out.

We also want an independent inquiry to look at this whole issue, which is exactly what those same rat pack members on that side demanded when they were in opposition. They wanted to go after a Tory government that they felt was corrupt at the time. We are just asking for the same things they thought were just fine to ask for when they were in opposition. They can call us all the names they want. We will not stop asking.

New issues crop up every day and they will continue to crop up because the opposition is doing a great job and we intend to keep up that good job.