House of Commons Hansard #192 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was life.

Topics

Assisted Human Reproduction ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Some hon. members

Question.

Assisted Human Reproduction ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

The question is on the amendment. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the amendment?

Assisted Human Reproduction ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

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Some hon. members

No.

Assisted Human Reproduction ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

All those in favour of the amendment will please say yea.

Assisted Human Reproduction ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Assisted Human Reproduction ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

All those opposed will please say nay.

Assisted Human Reproduction ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

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4:35 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

In my opinion the nays have it.

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4:35 p.m.

Some hon. members

On division.

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4:35 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

I declare the amendment lost.

Assisted Human Reproduction ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Jim Abbott Canadian Alliance Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Mr. Speaker, I rise again to debate the issue in the main motion. It is an issue that crosses all party lines. Its is so valuable and important I hope the government and all House leaders will see fit to give members the opportunity to vote as they see fit and according to their consciences. It would be unconscionable for party discipline or any other force to silence people on this important issue.

We in our party have had an opportunity to look at Bill C-56 and are concerned about a number of issues contained in it. The bill is about improving human life. The Canadian Alliance strongly supports research to this end whenever it is compatible with the dignity and value of human life. As I said when we were debating the amendment, that is absolutely the key issue. Everyone must come to this place with great courage and look at the issue of the dignity and value of human life. It is something the Canadian Alliance will strive to protect.

Bill C-56 is about the best interests of children born of assisted reproductive technologies. The Canadian Alliance will work to protect them. The bill is about access by prospective parents to the best assisted reproductive technologies science can ethically offer. The Canadian Alliance will work to preserve this. As I said at the outset, MPs from all parties should have a free vote on the bill at all its stages.

Clause 40 of the bill says human embryos could be harvested if the new agency was satisfied it was necessary for the purpose of proposed research. The discretionary power must be reduced by defining in the bill what constitutes necessary. In my public life people have come to me to talk about various decisions that have been made in the legal system. Not being a lawyer, one of my frustrations has been looking at legislation and seeing the words necessary or intent suddenly appearing in it. Such words may be common to members of parliament but what they mean in ordinary discussion can be totally different from what they mean in an court of law. That is why the word necessary must not be left to regulations or the agency to define.

The purpose of research on human embryos is not specified in the bill. It must be restricted to creating medical therapies that assist in healing the human body. More importantly, we are looking for a delay in the passage of the bill because of the rapid changes in research that are happening as we speak. Rapid change is taking place within the whole medical community in terms of what we can learn from adult stem cells as opposed to embryonic stem cells.

The modification of the phrase from the majority standing committee report should be replaced in clause 40 of the bill with the following: “Unless the applicant clearly demonstrates that no other category of biological material could be used from which to derive healing human therapies”. This is not an incidental amendment. It is an absolutely key amendment because we must respect human life, and embryo life is human life.

To stop licensees from producing more embryos than are necessary with the ulterior motive of harvesting them for research, a new clause should be added: “No licensee will produce more embryos than are reasonably necessary to complete the reproductive procedure intended by the donors”. Again, this goes to the issue of respect for human life.

We are creative. I am dating myself when I speak about the fact that I can recall turning up to work early one morning and seeing the headline at the newsstand “Man on the Moon”. We have moved so far past that point it is unbelievable. The concept of being able to safely go to the moon, land on the moon and walk on the moon as Armstrong did was beyond my comprehension. How much further are we than that? We are 100 or 1,000 times further than that with our research.

Again, there are possibilities for research. Although it is essential research, possibilities can happen in the context of adult stem cell research, placenta cell research or other materials that do not get to the issue of terminating human life.

Bill C-56 specifies that consent of the donor would be required to use a human embryo for experimentation. The bill would leave it to the regulations to define donor. However there are two donors to every human embryo: a man and a woman. Both donors or parents, not just one, should be required to give written consent for the use of a human embryo. Both the woman and the man have the right to consent or not consent to the use of the embryo.

This is where we seem to be drifting apart as a society. We seem to be drifting away from the concept of procreation between a man and a woman in a marriage situation which results in children and what is called the nuclear family. We are now into recreational sex, which is fine. However talking about sex for procreation is considered old fashioned. That is what God created it for in the first place. If we talk about donors why do we not use the correct term which is parents? That is what they are. If one parent dissents the embryo should not be harvested for experiments.

One thing that bothers me as much as anything when it comes to legal jargon or interpretation, particularly in the political realm, is the use of euphemisms. To harvest embryos for experiments sounds terribly scientific, does it not? However what we are doing is taking human life. We are not harvesting it. We are taking human life, experimenting with it and then discarding it. Even the word harvesting is somewhat problematic from my perspective. That is why language is important. To accord the dignity and respect due to the human embryo the word parents should be substituted for the impersonal word donor wherever the bill refers to both male and female contributors to a viable embryo.

There are concerns about experiments with human beings. Stem cells derived from embryos and implanted in a recipient are foreign tissue and thus subject to immune rejection, possibly requiring years of costly anti-rejection drug therapies. Stem cells taken from embryos and injected into rats grew brain tumours in 20% of the cases. Dr. Roger Barker, a researcher from Cambridge University, said:

I don't think this will be a treatment in humans for quite some time.

In an editorial in September, 2001 the editor in chief of Stem Cells magazine stated:

I continue to think that clinical application is a long way off for at least two reasons. Prior to clinical use of embryonic and fetal stem cells, it will be necessary to thoroughly investigate the malignant potential of embryonic stem cells. In addition, a much more comprehensive elucidation of the immune response is necessary to provide the basis to prevent transplanted stem cells and their progeny from being rejected by the transplant recipient.

This is important to note. There have as yet been no successful therapeutic applications for embryonic stem cells.

We seem to be rushing forward at light speed. The health minister has said that she wants the bill through the House of Commons and on to committee so it can be considered over the summer. I am saying that we should hold on a second because there have not as yet been any successful therapeutic applications for embryonic stem cells. Therefore, why are we rushing forward at this light speed?

I think one of the greatest lessons I have learned is that when legislation comes to the House not infrequently it ends up slowing down.

In conclusion, I have appreciated the opportunity to speak to this and I look forward to the debate from the other members.

Assisted Human Reproduction ActGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Mr. Speaker, I had the opportunity to speak to the previous amendment, which the House voted on a few minutes ago, but I would like to take this opportunity to speak in the debate at second reading in order to clarify certain notions I raised in that speech and to set them out now in greater detail.

Back then to the bill on assisted reproduction. We are now at the second reading stage, which addresses mainly the use of embryonic stem cells.

I repeat, stem cells are cells that have not attained maturity and therefore have the capacity to either specialize and form a variety of human tissues or organs or to renew themselves.

According to the Canadian Institutes of Health Research, they offer an enormous potential for a better understanding of human development and treatment of degenerative diseases such as Parkinson's, Alzheimer's and MS. These stem cells can come from a variety of sources: embryos at a very early stage, fetal reproductive organs and pluripotent cells, that is, those with a number of possibilities for development.

As far as this bill is concerned, the Bloc Quebecois has focussed its energies on getting this issue put into legislation. We still feel that it should, despite the great complexity of this subject. In my opinion, it involves the personal values of each member, which is why I believe there ought to be a free vote.

Since June 1996, the Bloc Quebecois has devoted a great deal of energy to developing the necessary legislation. In October 1997, the member for Drummond introduced a bill to make human cloning illegal. That bill was identical to the clause concerning cloning in government Bill C-47. Unfortunately, it died on the order paper when the election was called. This has not prevented ideas from continuing to evolve since then, and today we find ourselves with this bill.

As I have already said, I will be carrying out consultations on this within my riding. I feel it is important for all elements of this society who may wish to share their point of view with us on as sensitive a subject as assisted reproduction to have the opportunity to do so.

So, I will consult with, among others, church people, women's groups and scientists, who can help me, as a member of parliament, understand the impact of the terms used and the need to legislate. It is often in the details that we see whether the spirit of a bill was respected or not. I will also consult my fellow citizens, who can give me their opinion like anyone else, because this is an issue that concerns us all. People who are my age read, in the so-called literature of the future written at the beginning of century, about things that have now become reality. The same kind of progress will continue in the future.

Along with these individual consultations, I also intend to hold a roundtable to allow these people to exchange ideas, on a voluntary basis of course, to see if positions which, at first glance, may seem irreconcilable can be brought together, to explain the bill to all these people without getting into too many details, to provide an opportunity to my fellow citizens to express their views and help me in my consideration of this issue, so that when we vote at the various stages of the process, my position will be based on the input provided by my constituents.

This is not an ordinary bill involving party lines or partisan positions that have been developed over the years. Assisted human reproduction is an area that does not in any way relate to partisan notions, but to choices that will have to be made on scientific progress in the coming years, on how we will be able to make these choices and on the legislation that will govern this area. This is probably the main issue at second reading.

Whether or not anyone supports this bill, for me there is only position which is not acceptable and that is not wanting legislation. I think that there must be legislation. We can take the time to get it right. We can take the time to hold public hearings. We must ensure that we have all the information necessary, and that members of the public can express their views.

It is a challenge to get ordinary citizens to express their opinions on these matters, in their words, using their own vocabulary, so that we will have a bill reflecting what our society wants. Such a bill would set out the broad outline of what we wanted as a society with respect to these things. Health comes up daily in our debates. The progress made in the treatment of certain diseases, particularly those which are age-related, is a very important factor.

We must ask ourselves the following. What support do we want in order to fight these diseases? How do we want to develop the tools? How can we be sure of developing the necessary tools? How can we be sure that this will not become an opportunity for unacceptable business transactions? Are there moral behaviours which would be unacceptable? We must ask ourselves all these questions and ensure that the legislation answers them.

Once the bill has gone through second reading, the committee will be able to study it in detail, to see the different elements that we have spoken about and all of the inherent complexity. This deals with the use of embryos for research and how that would be done. These are important and very complex elements. They also represent a vision of the future.

We are leaving our children with a legacy of considering these issues in terms of morals vis-à-vis the evolution of science. We must learn from the past and consider the debate that took place then, whether it be in the 18th century, the 19th century or the beginning of the 20th century. Ideas were put forward that might have appeared to be heresy at the time when they were proposed. However, some years later, we may have realized that some very good or very bad choices were made to allow this to develop. When it comes to this issue, it would be best if we knew all of the facts when making decisions. The repercussions will not only be scientific in nature. There will also be repercussions on how people will act in the future and on the importance of assisted reproduction and the impact it will can have on our society.

Given all of these situations, I hope that the consultations I will be holding will allow me to vote according to my conscience, but also knowing the opinions of those who want to share with me their perceptions of this situation. I may be able to contribute something, by making amendments and suggestions regarding the regulations, by ensuring that the guidelines included in the bill by lawmakers cannot be interpreted differently by those who enforce the law, so that we can achieve the desired results.

These are the consultations that I want to have so that the legislation, once passed, will serve as a solid cornerstone of the direction that we want research and assisted reproduction to take.

Assisted Human Reproduction ActGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

Is the House ready for the question?

Assisted Human Reproduction ActGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

Some hon. members

Question.

Assisted Human Reproduction ActGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Assisted Human Reproduction ActGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Assisted Human Reproduction ActGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Assisted Human Reproduction ActGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Assisted Human Reproduction ActGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Assisted Human Reproduction ActGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

All those opposed will please say nay.

Assisted Human Reproduction ActGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Assisted Human Reproduction ActGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And more than five members having risen:

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The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

Call in the members.

And the bells having rung:

Assisted Human Reproduction ActGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

At the request of the deputy government whip, the recorded division stands deferred until tomorrow, after government orders.