House of Commons Hansard #198 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was chairman.

Topics

Inter-American Convention to Prevent and Punish TortureAdjournment Proceedings

7 p.m.

Bloc

Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—Petite-Patrie, QC

Mr. Speaker, the parliamentary secretary does not seem to recognize that there is an urgent need for resources. Again, I quote from the environment commissioner's 2001 report.

She said, and I quote:

In Quebec, we also observed that Environment Canada lacks the capacity to manage all its national wildlife areas effectively. For example, the Lac Saint-François National Wildlife Area, a Ramsar site, has a management plan dating back to 1986 and no federal staff on site.

In section 5.1.18 of the commissioner's report, she said “There is limited monitoring of public access” in a significant number of national reserves.

It must be understood that the resources allocated to national reserves must be increased if we want to make these reserves and our natural heritage accessible.

Inter-American Convention to Prevent and Punish TortureAdjournment Proceedings

7 p.m.

Liberal

Karen Redman Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, I do not think it is ever possible to do enough to protect all the natural areas in Canada.

I want the hon. member to know that we are developing a strategy and it will be presented this fall.

With the involvement of Canadians, community and conservation organizations, business associations, non-government organizations and other levels of government, we are taking steps to protect the natural wealth and the natural beauty that we enjoy in Canada.

I repeat that Environment Canada is currently working on a strategy that will conserve and manage this network. It is very important to realize that we take this matter very seriously.

Inter-American Convention to Prevent and Punish TortureAdjournment Proceedings

7 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Greg Thompson Progressive Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB

Mr. Speaker, this country's softwood lumber industry is in trouble. I know it and everyone in the House knows it.

The blame lies squarely at the feet of the government. It is unbelievable when we recognize the government knew for five years that the softwood lumber agreement would expire. What action did the government take in that five year period to resolve this issue? The government did not do a whole lot because here we are facing crippling duties, tariffs, and the demise of our industry from one end of Canada to the other. There is not a provincial government that would disagree with me.

As an example, British Columbia produces 12 billion feet of lumber a year. In British Columbia alone 35,000 people are employed in that industry. In New Brunswick the industry employs over 4,000 people. There are 64 mills in the small province of New Brunswick. In British Columbia there are 338 mills. Every one of those mills is threatened. Every one of those jobs is threatened.

It is systemic. There are a number of trade issues on the floor of the House that the government has mismanaged and mishandled. The government has paid no attention to the details, hoping it could coast along and things would get done and things would work out. This is an example of where that laissez-faire management style just does not work. It has not worked in agriculture and it has not worked in steel. It certainly is not working in the softwood lumber dispute.

This is another example of the deteriorating relationship between Canada and the United States. Sometimes personal intervention can make a difference. It is acknowledged that the Prime Minister of Canada has no relationship with the President of the United States because that would run against everything the Prime Minister ever spoke of and believed in. That thread of anti-Americanism that runs in the veins of the Prime Minister has not helped us in this case. He cannot get on the telephone to the President of the United States and talk this thing over and have it resolved.

Even a former minister who now represents us in Geneva, Sergio Marchi, said the same thing. This is a case where Ottawa and Washington have to get together at the highest levels to solve the problem.

Maybe it has to do with that historic relationship years ago when the present Prime Minister accused a former prime minister of going fishing with a former U.S. president, calling him his fishing buddy. The present Prime Minister referred to the former prime minister as being the fish on the hook of the former U.S. president, but it was found that the present Prime Minister was nothing more than a caddy for President Clinton.

The softwood lumber issue is serious and the government has no resolution in sight. Thousands of jobs in Canada are at risk. How in the short term will the government resolve it? What plan does the government have to give us some confidence that it will resolve this issue?

Inter-American Convention to Prevent and Punish TortureAdjournment Proceedings

7:05 p.m.

London—Fanshawe Ontario

Liberal

Pat O'Brien LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister for International Trade

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to respond on behalf of the Minister for International Trade to a question asked in the House of Commons on May 2 by the hon. member for New Brunswick Southwest concerning softwood lumber.

At that time the member wrongly mentioned that the government had nothing to offer Canadian lumber workers. He further stated that the Prime Minister had not taken a special interest in the issue.

Nothing could be further from the facts. The softwood lumber dispute with the United States continues to be Canada's number one trade challenge. On May 22 the United States administration imposed 27% countervailing and anti-dumping duties on our lumber exports following the U.S. International Trade Commission finding that the Canadian softwood lumber exports to the United States were threatening to injure U.S. producers.

The Government of Canada, the provinces and territories and Canadian industry reject the United States government's determinations relating to Canada's lumber exports. Our lumber is not subsidized, it is not dumped, and it is not injuring or threatening to injure the United States lumber industry.

In full co-operation with the provinces, territories and industry, the Government of Canada is challenging the U.S. decisions at the WTO and under NAFTA. We are challenging the U.S. preliminary and final subsidy determinations and we have initiated two more general trade challenges relating to softwood lumber. We are also undertaking two NAFTA challenges as well and are analyzing the threat of injury determination for possible WTO and NAFTA challenges. We are taking every step possible to defend our industry, and let me repeat, in full co-operation with the provinces, territories and industry.

In response to the hon. member's comments that the Government of Canada has nothing to offer our lumber industry and workers, I would like to remind the member for New Brunswick Southwest that on May 27 the Minister for International Trade announced that the Government of Canada would provide an additional $17 million to Canada's lumber industry so that it can carry out an education and awareness building campaign in the U.S. An industry led campaign is the best way to educate key segments in the United States that softwood lumber duties have a punitive effect on not only our lumber industry but on their domestic market in the home building and other lumber related construction industries.

The Minister for International Trade also announced $3 million in incremental funding for advocacy so that Canadian officials in our embassy and consulates across the United States can intensify our opposition to U.S. protectionism in softwood lumber and other vital Canadian trade sectors, including agriculture and energy. In essence this will help us raise the volume of our opposition to U.S. protectionist actions.

One month ago, the Minister of Natural Resources announced long term measures that will help our forest industry through diversification and innovation. His announcement will open new markets and foster innovation through enhanced research and development capabilities. The announcement included $29.7 million for the Canada wood export program, $30 million to support research and development activities, and $15 million for the value added research initiative for wood products for a total of $75.7 million over and above existing programs.

The member would portray this as a matter on which the Canadian government has not acted or has not acted effectively, on which it has just been riding off on its own. That is simply incorrect. By now the member ought to be aware of the concerted efforts of the federal government, the provinces and territories and industry to tackle this problem.

Inter-American Convention to Prevent and Punish TortureAdjournment Proceedings

7:10 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Greg Thompson Progressive Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB

Mr. Speaker, the government has had five years to respond to this and deal with it, knowing full well it was coming.

When the parliamentary secretary gets up and talks about the $17 million, $20 million or whatever it is to launch an awareness campaign in the United States, it is something like taking a wet noodle down there and knocking on the door of the president. No one will hear it. Ronald McDonald and the Hamburgler will be more well known in the United States of America than this issue. The government simply has dropped the ball on it. Even some of the former ministers who represented the government in the House admit the same, as does every provincial premier in the country. The government simply has dropped the ball on this issue.

The parliamentary secretary got up and talked about the piddling $20 million. That would keep the industry in Canada going for exactly 15 minutes.

Inter-American Convention to Prevent and Punish TortureAdjournment Proceedings

7:10 p.m.

Liberal

Pat O'Brien Liberal London—Fanshawe, ON

Mr. Speaker, the member's argument is so full of holes it looks like a piece of cheese. He talked about the problem being that there is not a good relationship between the Prime Minister and the president. Let me quote the American ambassador, Mr. Cellucci, who said that reports of a rift between the Prime Minister and Mr. Bush are absolutely “not true”. Mr. Cellucci says:

The point ...about the President and the Prime Minister not getting along and not having a good relationship, it just isn't true. I've been in the meetings. I've talked with the President about the Prime Minister. I've seen them. The chemistry is very good...It's just not true this stuff that's out there.

There was a conscious decision to let the softwood lumber agreement run out and the member ought to know by now that there is a strong national consensus to proceed on the track on which we are proceeding.

Inter-American Convention to Prevent and Punish TortureAdjournment Proceedings

7:10 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

Pursuant to Standing Order 81(4), the motion to adjourn the House is deemed to have been withdrawn. The House will now resolve itself into committee of the whole to study all votes under Public Works and Government Services in the main estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2003. I do now leave the chair for the House to resolve itself into committee of the whole.

(Consideration in committee of the whole of all votes under Public Works and Government Services in the main estimates, Mr. Kilger in the chair)

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7:10 p.m.

The Chairman

House in committee of the whole on all votes under Public Works and Government Services in the main estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2003.

To begin this evening's deliberations I give the floor to the hon. Minister of Public Works and Government Services.

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7:10 p.m.

Wascana Saskatchewan

Liberal

Ralph Goodale LiberalMinister of Public Works and Government Services

Mr. Chairman and hon. members, good evening. Even though I have only nine days of experience in my new job as Minister of Public Works and Government Services, I welcome this early, I would say very early, opportunity to meet in committee of the whole with members of the House of Commons. I hope we can have a useful discussion this evening. As a brand new minister I am certainly anxious to know and to understand the priority interests of MPs in relation to my departmental responsibilities, and I will always try to respond constructively to what members of the House have to say.

Given the fact that I am a new arrival in this portfolio, I hope colleagues will bear with me a bit tonight if I rely on my officials and their briefing materials a little more than usual. In nine days, as I am sure members can imagine, I am on a bit of a steep learning curve, but I will do my best to be as forthcoming as possible.

To assist me tonight I would like to introduce my officials: first, my much respected deputy minister, Janice Cochrane, who arrived in this role at Public Works and Government Services Canada in April of last year, and second, Mr. Guy McKenzie, who is the executive director of Communications Canada as of last fall. Some members will probably recall his work in guiding Canada's Y2K preparations a couple of years ago as well as in a previous phase of the Canada infrastructure program. Finally, I have with me tonight Mr. Rod Monette, who is assistant deputy minister of government operational service at Public Works and Government Services Canada. He has held several positions of increasing responsibility within the federal public service, most recently at the Treasury Board, before coming to Public Works and Government Services Canada last year. I am happy to note that his family originally comes from Coronach, Saskatchewan, a rural community in my province that I know rather well.

In addition to my continuing duties as minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board and the Federal Interlocutor for Métis and Non-Status Indians, on May 26, as members of the House know, I became the Minister of Public Works and Government Services and Minister responsible for Communications Canada and for Defence Construction Canada. Those new roles, taken together, entail responsibility for about $4 billion in budgeted departmental activities, some 14,000 employees, attention to 59 separate pieces of legislation, interactions with more than 100 government departments and agencies, as well as the Canadian public, of course, and the administration of some 60,000 contracts for goods and services worth more than $10 billion per year.

Within this huge envelope, most of the public and parliamentary focus in recent weeks and months has been on the sponsorship program of Communications Canada. Given the obvious interest in this program, I think this is where I should start in my opening remarks tonight.

It is a relatively small program. Sponsorships are budgeted annually at about $40 million. That is approximately 1% of the dollar value of the activities to be funded within my portfolio for the coming year, but big or small, Canadians have a right to expect that every government initiative should function efficiently and effectively with transparency and accountability achieving value for the taxpayer's investment. That means that the sponsorship program must be substantially improved. Indeed, the drive for improvement has been underway since the year 2000 and is showing some positive results.

To put all of this into its proper context, let me summarize a brief chronology of some important events. In early 2000 an internal audit of the sponsorship program was initiated by Public Works and Government Services Canada. That internal audit was obviously conducted by the internal audit section of my department. I would note that the auditor general has said that the section is excellent, that it is courageous and that it does very good work. As a result of the internal audit, an action plan was developed and was implemented starting in April 2001 to substantially improve the management of that sponsorship program.

The measures included new guidelines on the awarding of sponsorships, contracts awarded in conformity with treasury board guidelines, new guidelines to support decision making and approval processes, better documentation of files and the verification of documentation prior to the approval of payments, an improved payment structure, meaning 50% up front and 50% on completion instead of the old 80:20 breakdown, more rigorous follow ups, requirements for prior documentation and approval for changes to sponsorship agreements and verification of postmortem reports prior to final sponsorship disbursements.

In February 2002 an improved management framework was also announced by my predecessor. That framework includes clearer definitions of objectives and priorities, close monitoring of delivery agencies, in depth analyses of certain files and new management guidelines.

On March 6, 2002, a follow up review was conducted by the internal audit division of Public Works and Government Services Canada. That internal audit review concluded that corrective measures had in fact been implemented over the preceding year or year and a half or so and that they did meet the requirement of good management. Therefore, the original internal audit done in the year 2000 was verified in the year 2002 as having borne fruit in terms of improvement.

On March 19 of this year the then Minister of Public Works and Government Services asked the Auditor General of Canada, Sheila Fraser, to review three particular contracts that had been awarded between 1996 and 1999 to one particular firm called Groupaction. Madam Fraser and her team did their work as requested by the former minister.

On May 8, 2002, the auditor general referred the handling of three particular contracts to the RCMP for further investigation. She also indicated that she would be doing a government wide examination of sponsorships and advertising contracts.

In the meantime, in response to the report of the auditor general, further new measures were announced by my predecessor. New standing offers will be created to increase access for small and large companies across the country and a selection process for new communications agencies will be conducted this summer leading to the fall of 2002.

Activities and events eligible for the sponsorship program will be more clearly defined. The value of contracts granted to any particular contractor will be limited to 25% of all contracts awarded under the sponsorship program including, and this is an important change, the work of affiliates and subsidiaries. Rules that apply to subcontracting activities being procured on behalf of the sponsorship program will be more clearly defined.

Companies with majority Canadian ownership as opposed to 100% Canadian ownership will now be able to compete for contracts to support sponsorship activities increasing the number of firms that can compete, and that is obviously good for transparency.

As well Public Works and Government Services Canada is again reviewing every sponsorship file between 1997 and 2000 to identify potential issues and to assist in every way possible the ongoing work of the auditor general. In addition, the Prime Minister has asked the president of the treasury board to re-examine how the government deals with advertising, sponsorships and polling to ensure a proper management framework and strong governance.

Upon my arrival in this portfolio on May 26, I initiated an additional step. For the current sponsorship year, I have placed a freeze on further project approvals until I am satisfied that the program criteria are in fact as good as they can possibly be and that all new projects comply with those criteria. My review under that freeze is nearing completion. It is not done yet but I hope to conclude it in the next number of days.

By way of background, there was about $18 million worth of sponsorship business this year representing some 225 community projects which were essentially completed or too far advanced to be frozen when I announced that moratorium on May 27.

That leaves about $22 million worth of activity, perhaps 350 applicants that are caught in this freeze process for the time being while that moratorium remains in place. I understand the difficulty that the moratorium causes for the community groups and organizations and I want to assure them that I will complete my review at the earliest possible moment.

My review thus far has shown three things.

First, sponsorship activity is in fact a legitimate activity. It is done by all levels of government and by the private sector, non-profit organizations and so forth. There is a demand for this type of Government of Canada support in all parts of the country.

Second, the vast majority of community based projects which seek sponsorships are truly worthwhile. Many of them indeed have the active endorsement and support of members of the House.

Third, the problem areas appear to be associated primarily with the marketing agencies that are in fact used as the delivery mechanisms.

While I hope to lift my freeze in the next short while for this year, for the longer term, beyond the steps already taken and announced either by me or my predecessor, I am examining a variety of other questions. For example: How can the cost effectiveness and transparency of the agency's system be sufficiently improved? Can it be sufficiently improved?

Would it be better overall in some cases, in most cases or in all cases to attempt to administer and deliver a sponsorship initiative as an internal government program without outside contracts?

How can we accurately assess and measure the value obtained for the money invested in an area that is inherently subjective? Whether it is done by this government or any other government or the private sector, trying to measure the impact of something like a sponsorship is obviously a subjective exercise.

How do we evaluate success in that circumstance? Should we engage, for example, a blue ribbon panel of external experts in the field of advertising and sponsorship that can give professional external advice on the measurement of this kind of an intangible? Or is this an area upon which the new standing committee on government operations and the estimates may have some views to put forward or some research work to do?

Finally, how do we work toward greater regional equity, balance and consistency in sponsorship funding from coast to coast to coast?

These are among a few of the issues that I want to address for the future.

As for the past, first, let me reiterate that another departmental review is underway for that period, from 1997 until the year 2000. Second, a government wide audit is being undertaken by the auditor general. Third, references to the appropriate police authorities will be made when circumstance warrants that kind of reference. Fourth, the treasury board is examining governance and management frameworks.

Let me repeat the commitments that have been made by me and by the Prime Minister. Where there are administrative errors, they will be corrected. If and where we find overpayments, they will be recovered. If laws have been broken, they will be investigated and they will be prosecuted.

Having dealt briefly in the time available to me with the sponsorships, let me turn to the broader activity in the last few minutes of the Department of Public Works and Government Services.

The department's goal within the current public policy context is to provide modern client focused common services to the departments and agencies of the Government of Canada, and Canadians generally, at the best value for Canadian taxpayers. Our department tries very hard to provide the best solutions to our clients while respecting the values of prudence, probity and transparency and contributing to improving the quality of life of Canadians.

Within the department, as the estimates will show, there are eight business lines in Public Works and Government Services: Real Property Services, Receiver General, Public Service Compensation, Supply Operations Service, Telecommunications and Informatics Common Services, Consulting and Audit Canada, the Translation Bureau and Operational Support. The department strives to provide excellent service to its clientele in all these areas.

To a significant extent, economic competition among the nations of the world includes competition about the efficiency of government operations. Recent achievements in public works and government services have helped keep Canada in the ranks of the world leaders in government efficiency. Here are some examples for members to consider.

The first example is the application of new technologies by my department to give Canadians a wider choice of ways to do business with the government itself. Fifteen years ago there were just two ways to make a payment to government, by mail or at the counter of a government office if in fact there was one where the person lived.

Today, depending on what is being paid, a person can use a debit card, or a credit card, or pay on the Internet or pay through the bank using a personal computer or by means of telephone banking.

As of 2001, people who pay their taxes quarterly can authorize the government to withdraw the amounts from their bank accounts electronically. Canadians travelling or living abroad can now use credit cards online to make payments for taxes and services to Canadian embassies.

The second example I would like to use is what we call the secure channel. Simply put, this is a private line for communication between Canadians and their government. For that reason, it is an essential building block of the new e-government development. An increasing number of Canadians are paying taxes, receiving pensions and purchasing government services online. The secure channel will make it possible for them to do so with confidence that hackers and other would be intruders will be unable to tap into their personal information about them. This is again another area where we hope to keep Canada in the forefront of the world.

Concerning the public accounts of Canada, there has been an event of rather historic proportions recently. That is the successful phase in of the financial information strategy or FIS in which my department has been intimately involved. This was a huge technological challenge and the greatest change in government accounting and financial reporting since Confederation.

The FIS involved a shift to full accrual accounting by the government, an approach that produces a more accurate picture of program delivery cost. It makes Canada one of a small group of nations using full accrual in government accounting. In fact, several delegations from around the world have visited Public Works and Government Services Canada to see how we went about achieving that goal. Moreover, our success was rewarded with a gold medal at the 2001 Government Technology Distinction Awards.

Let me conclude with this final thought. Our strategic priorities at Public Works and Government Services Canada can be really summed up in one word, excellence: excellence in services, excellence in value for money, excellence in workforce skills and excellence in our overall contribution to the economic and social well-being of Canada.

I hope that members tonight will find it useful to go through the estimates of this department to see the range of things that Public Works and Government Services Canada does. At the same time, we will touch upon any areas that members feel are problematic or deserving of more sharp questioning, to ensure that we can deliver to Canadians through our parliamentary process what my department tries to achieve through its administrative process; that is transparency, accountability and value to the taxpayers for money invested.

I look forward to tonight's discussion.

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7:30 p.m.

The Chairman

I think it merits for the Chair to take a moment to repeat what was part of a motion unanimously passed in the House earlier this day with regard to tonight's business. It states:

Within each twenty minute period, each party may allocate time to one or more of its Members, for speeches or for questions and answers, provided that, in the case of questions and answers, the Minister's answer shall not exceed the time taken by the question, and provided that, in the case of speeches, Members of the party to which the period is allocated may speak one after the other.

I know members will want to extend to the Chair some flexibility because I can anticipate that if a question is extremely short and technical, we must be fair to the minister. On the other hand, I am sure the minister would never intend to--let me use an old hockey expression being as we are competing a bit with the Stanley Cup finals tonight--rag the puck. I am sure we can find some balance and get on with the proceedings.

I now turn the floor over to the hon. member for Battlefords--Lloydminster.

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7:30 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Gerry Ritz Canadian Alliance Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Mr. Chairman, it is a pleasure to take part in this exercise tonight. As the minister stated in his remarks, he has only had nine days in the hot seat. I wish him many more. I am sure we will see some movement on a lot of files in the next little while whether by inertia or by someone pushing.

However one thing he forgot to say is that he has had nine years in government and in cabinet at the executive level, so he brings those skills to this posting. He is not exactly a rookie in this job.

The minister talked about 14,000 employees in the public civil service and that 60,000 contracts are issued annually by the public service. How many of those, Mr. Minister, go to you for just an oversight which you just has to rubber stamp and send along. How many do you actually run up and down a thermometer or a benchmark as such and say that this one is good or this one is bad? Do you make recommendations on those 60,000 contracts or do you just rubber stamp them on through and pay the bill?

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7:35 p.m.

The Chairman

Before the minister replies, I again remind members that the usual practice will prevail that comments and questions will be made through the Chair. It can be helpful from time to time. The practice serves us well. I ask for everyone's co-operation with regard to that matter.

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7:35 p.m.

Liberal

Ralph Goodale Liberal Wascana, SK

Mr. Chairman, I am advised by my officials that historically, of the total volume of contract work that goes through the department, probably between 1% and 3% are of such a nature, mostly based on value or size, that they require the direct attention of the minister.

Otherwise, as the member can tell from those statistics, the largest percentage are delegated ,according to treasury board rules, to appropriate officials at the appropriate level within the public service, always being accountable upstream to the minister.

This is an area that is subject to ministerial discretion. Ministers may conclude that a larger proportion or a smaller proportion could appropriately be subject to ministerial review. Being relatively new in the portfolio--

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7:35 p.m.

The Chairman

I am sorry to interrupt, and I understand that we are early in the evening, but flexibility can only take us so far. With no disrespect to anyone on either side of the House but we do want to get in as many questions as we possibly can because that is the intent of this format. I am sure we will have co-operation from the minister who is not in an enviable position when we have so many time constraints.

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7:35 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Gerry Ritz Canadian Alliance Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Mr. Chairman, it is still true that each year the minister signs off an authority card, which is that he delegates signing authority and dollar values to deputy ministers, heads of communications and all those types of positions? Does he have a dollar value in place for each person so that they would be available to check and okay procedures without his okay?

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7:35 p.m.

Liberal

Ralph Goodale Liberal Wascana, SK

Mr. Chairman, the delegation of signing authorities is reviewed periodically from time to time as required. There is no rigid schedule that it must come up for review on an annual basis or that sort of thing. It is on an as required basis.

As a new minister in a portfolio, I would expect to see the delegation of signing authorities in the next short while to see if I consider them to be appropriate. Whenever my portfolio has changed in the past I have routinely taken the opportunity to examine the delegation of signing authorities, and I expect that to be forthcoming.

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7:35 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Gerry Ritz Canadian Alliance Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Mr. Chairman, at this particular point in time has the minister delegated anyone to sign a cheque for up to $1 million?

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7:35 p.m.

Liberal

Ralph Goodale Liberal Wascana, SK

Mr. Chairman, there has been no new delegation since May 26.

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7:35 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Gerry Ritz Canadian Alliance Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Mr. Chairman, either the minister has not signed any cheques or no money is going out of the department at this time.

In part three, plans and priorities, the Communications Canada organization states that it is headed by an executive director reporting to a cabinet committee. I am wondering who chairs that committee. Is the minister on the committee? Who else in cabinet sits on that particular committee?

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7:35 p.m.

Liberal

Ralph Goodale Liberal Wascana, SK

Mr. Chairman, it is the cabinet committee on communications. As the Minister of Public Works and Government Services and the minister responsible for Communications Canada, I chair that committee. We could provide to the committee of the whole later on this evening the membership of the committee.

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7:40 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Gerry Ritz Canadian Alliance Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Mr. Chairman, has the membership on that committee changed in the last little while, say in the past year? Several ministers have gone through the chair. Have other people on that committee changed as well or has it just been the ministers?

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7:40 p.m.

Liberal

Ralph Goodale Liberal Wascana, SK

Mr. Chairman, the only members of the committee are ministers. Obviously there are some ministerial changes from time to time. It is the Prime Minister's prerogative as to which ministers sit on which committees.

We have, as members know, the economic committee of cabinet, the social committee of cabinet, the treasury be communications committee. The membership varies from time to time. It is a decision of the Prime Minister as to which ministers are on which committee.

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7:40 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Gerry Ritz Canadian Alliance Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Mr. Chairman, the minister talked about 200 sponsorship contracts being sneaked through the pipeline as the freeze was being applied. They are in the game plan now. Has the minister seen these contracts? What was the value of them, and that type of information?

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7:40 p.m.

Liberal

Ralph Goodale Liberal Wascana, SK

Mr. Chairman, I know the hon. gentleman would have used the word inadvertently, but there was no sneaking here. It was according to the established procedures.

Naturally, when one comes in part way through a $40 million program and imposes a moratorium or a freeze, one will catch some things in progress because it will be part way through the year.

My intervention came at just about the halfway point. Eighteen million dollars worth of work was essentially done for the year. Another $22 million remains to be done. I am in the process of focusing particularly on those ones that have been caught in process.

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7:40 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Gerry Ritz Canadian Alliance Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Mr. Chairman, of the 200 that are in the pipeline, as the minister says, an $18 million value, how many of those are placed with Groupaction and what is the dollar value of those. How many are with Groupe Everest and what is the dollar value of those? What about Lafleur Communications? Those are the three companies that we have been talking about in this place.