Debates of June 5th, 2002

Government Contracts

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, the contracts that were in question have been specifically examined by the auditor general and there has been a reference to the RCMP.

I would note that in the auditor general's report she said “our conclusions cannot and do not pertain to any practices that Groupaction followed”. She was referring to the public service not to Groupaction.

In any event, I am confident that all ministers will be examining the business matters within their portfolios and determining that any contracting procedures are in fact appropriate.

[Stephen Harper, Canadian Alliance, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, the minister said that the quality of Groupaction's previous work was substandard and deficient. Those were his words. It is hard to believe that Groupaction could not have had some role in that. However the government rewards Groupaction with four more contracts worth over $200,000 when it already knew that the auditor general was investigating the previous shoddy work.

Will the government now freeze all government work on advertising, polling and research to Groupaction pending the outcome of the RCMP investigation?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, the RCMP has made it clear that its investigation will take it wherever it takes it and that it will pursue prosecution if that is appropriate based upon its investigation.

In the meantime the Prime Minister has asked the President of the Treasury Board to make a government-wide inquiry with respect to polling, advertising and sponsorships to ensure that the management framework and the governance system is appropriate. We will ensure that the system is transparent and proper.

[Stephen Harper, Canadian Alliance, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, the government should just say no, but when a customer pays $112,000 it is kind of hard to do that.

This government is breaking the rules to help its friends. It ignores the warnings of the auditor general and the RCMP investigation.

Will the government put a moratorium on all contracts to Groupaction until the auditor general tables her report?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, the problems found with respect to three Groupaction contracts caused the auditor general to take certain actions. She has reported those matters to the police. She is conducting a government-wide examination. Those are the proper actions to be taken in the circumstances. Wherever any indication of wrongdoing is found, the appropriate references to the police are made.

[Grant Hill, Canadian Alliance, Macleod, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is pretty obvious that the government did not stop the Groupaction sleaze at all. Let us talk now about the Groupe Everest sleaze. We revealed yesterday that Media IDA Vision got 75% of government advertising services. Now we find another Claude Boulay invention, Media Vision, got another $13 million.

Could the minister explain why these Liberal friends get all this business?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, since those issues were raised yesterday, I am checking very carefully on the arithmetic that was alleged. I want to get a complete picture of the entire advertising situation. For example, it was alleged yesterday that a certain amount accounted for all government advertising. That figure was in fact not correct.

I want to get all the arithmetic on the table and examine it to ensure that it does fit within the guidelines of both my department and the treasury board. If it does not, then the corrections will be made.

[Grant Hill, Canadian Alliance, Macleod, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Canadian taxpayers call that stalling, quite frankly.

Let us go a little further with this. Here we have a company that got 75% of advertising services. That is against the rules. Now we find the same group, the same affiliate, the same Claude Boulay invention got another $13 million. Our question is this. Is this not another reason for a public inquiry into Liberal friends getting Liberal contracts?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, I have indicated very clearly that I intend to examine this arithmetic that has been alleged. There are a whole range of inquiries underway by my department, with the collaboration of the treasury board, by the auditor general where that is appropriate and by the police where that is appropriate.

I am determined that all facts will be revealed. This will be transparent and accountable, and we will ensure that taxpayers get value for their money.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in 2001-2002, the Games of la Francophonie received $2.8 million in federal sponsorships. This is $300,000 more than asked for, and this had the effect of bringing up to $419,000 the commissions collected by Gosselin Relations Publiques and Media IDA Vision.

Since the case of the Games of la Francophonie is not the subject of a police investigation, I imagine that, this time, the minister will be able to provide an answer.

Could the minister of public works tell us why the amounts paid to the Games of la Francophonie exceeded the initial request? Why did they get more than what they asked for? This seems a bit strange.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman will know that the Francophonie Games is a major international event. It involves some considerable complexity. The planning for it took place not just within one fiscal year but over a series of years, as one would expect with an event of this magnitude.

There were contract changes over time. The validity and the propriety of those contract changes will of course be subject to the work of the auditor general.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I imagine that the organizers of these events understood all the complexity of this process. They were surprised to get more.

Guy Matte, the co-chair of the organizing committee of the Games of la Francophonie, told us that it was the federal government that imposed Gosselin Relations publiques, a Groupaction subsidiary which, for the year 2001-02 alone, received $335,000 in commissions.

What the minister of public works does not understand is very simple: does the presence of a firm imposed by the government not explain the ease with which the Games of la Francophonie and, consequently, Gosselin Relations publiques, received much more than was initially requested?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, there is nothing in the material before me at the moment that would support any allegations of irregularities. However let me repeat what I said to hon. gentleman on a couple of occasions. Like him, I share a number of questions with respect to the efficacy of the agency system. That is clearly one of the things that I intend to re-examine. If we can find a better, more direct, efficient way of delivering this program, we will make those changes.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the minister of public works will not make it to the end of the session by telling us that he is looking at the issue. At some point, he will have to provide answers.

The case of the Games of la Francophonie is very interesting, particularly what happened with regard to the printing component. They asked for $575,000 from the government and they got $948,000. After commissions and other costs related to go-betweens, they were left with $825,000.

How does the government explain that the total grant represented 165% of the initial request, while the direct subsidy was 140%?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, as I indicated, with an event of this magnitude, there are contract changes that do occur over time. This whole event, because it falls within the category of sponsorship, will in fact be part of the work of the auditor general to determine that all guidelines were followed and the proper contracting procedures were applied. That is what the auditor general does.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, one must have quite a bit of power in the government to exceed by 65% the request made by those who are asking for funds.

I want to know who, in the government, can authorize such overpayments. Who has this power in cabinet?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, when contract amendments occur, they are of course dealt with by the appropriate authorities within the department to ensure that the matter is completely transparent and that all the facts and evidence are on the table. This is one of the transactions that will of course be a part of the work that the auditor general herself will be undertaking. She will get on with that work very shortly.

Canadian Wheat Board

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, what is going on when the Canadian Wheat Board has to pay $4,000 to get access to the Prime Minister and Liberal MPs? The government has created a virtual culture of cronyism so corrosive that the Canadian Wheat Board believes that it has to cough up, “an entry fee for the purpose of doing business”.

Does the Prime Minister intend to take any responsibility for breeding this culture of cronyism and what will he do to clean it up?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, first, I point out that the Canadian Wheat Board is not a crown corporation. Second, the guidelines that would apply in this case to an entity that is not a crown corporation are being re-examined by myself, as I undertook yesterday. Third, I point out that within the Canadian Wheat Board's authority not only did it participate in the events referred to, but also events that were sponsored by the hon. member for Okanagan--Coquihalla and the hon. member for Selkirk--Interlake.

Code of Conduct

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, my question to the Prime Minister was about the culture of cronyism that the government has created. There is a virtual toll booth at the Liberal government's gates these days. After nine years in office, the government has still failed to bring in clear ethical guidelines and an ethics commissioner who would report to the House.

I appreciated the kind words of the Prime Minister this afternoon, but something that would mean a lot more to Canadians would be for him to pledge today to support my private member's bill, Bill C-299, which would establish a clear code of conduct for parliamentarians. Will the Prime Minister make that commitment today to Canadians?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, as a gift for what the member announced today, I would like to inform her that we intend to do that. It was part of the speech I made two weeks ago. The leader of the government has written to all parties about setting up a committee, so there will be guidelines for members of parliament and senators. Unfortunately the Alliance does not want to participate in such a committee.

Government Contracts

[Joe Clark, Progressive Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the minister of public works said yesterday that “It will be up to [auditor general] to determine the scope” of the audit of abuse of advertising and sponsorship contracts.Yet the auditor general is prohibited from examining the so-called arm's length foundations in the way she would examine government departments. Under present rules she cannot inquire whether the advertising scandal extends to the millennium fund or the other foundations which control $7 billion of public money.

In the interest of knowing the whole truth, would the Prime Minister agree to extend the powers of the auditor general so she can conduct a full audit that includes all departments, all crown corporations, all agencies and all arm's length foundations?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, it should be pointed out that every one of the arm's length foundations that are referred to by the right hon. gentleman are in fact subject to independent audits by private sector auditing firms. If they are asked to co-operate with the auditor general, they will do so.

[Joe Clark, Progressive Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the minister has just admitted that the auditor general does not have the power to conduct her own investigation.

Since the auditor general does not have the necessary power to investigate all agencies where significant abuses might be surreptitiously going on, what is the government's excuse for its continued refusal to establish an independent public commission of inquiry which could examine all sponsorship and advertising programs?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, let me again lay out the process. The difficulties here were discovered by an internal audit conducted by Public Works and Government Services Canada. The auditor general said that the work was excellent and of critical value. It resulted in a whole series of changes within the sponsorship program.

The auditor general reviewed three particular Groupaction files. She took the appropriate action in referring certain files to the RCMP. She is now conducting a government-wide examination with respect to advertising and sponsorships. The President of the Treasury Board is reviewing the government's framework. All appropriate actions have been launched.