Debates of June 7th, 2002

The Environment

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—St. Clair, ON]

Mr. Speaker, poll after poll has shown that the vast majority of Canadians, including 72% of Albertans, are concerned about climate change and want the federal government to ratify Kyoto.

The provinces want to engage in a national debate. The environment minister has repeatedly said that there would be a full and open consultation so all Canadians could be heard.

Why then are the current consultations taking place behind closed doors, closed to the public and by invitation only?

[David Anderson, Liberal, Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, there will be a series of consultations over the next few months.

The particular consultation to which the member is referring is essentially one for experts in the field who have been working with the federal, provincial and territorial governments over the last five or six years, perhaps some indeed for the last 10 years, on the issue. It is essentially a technical hearing. The numbers in each depicted community are limited to about 75 to have the most effective dynamics for such technical discussions.

I can assure the hon. member there will be full public discussions later this year.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—St. Clair, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I would feel more confident because of some other things he said. The minister said earlier this week that the national progress report on sustainable development, which should have been submitted to the UN by now and he has it, could be a valuable resource in the consultation process. Yet the minister is keeping it under wraps and out of sight from the public.

If the minister is really serious about this consultation, he should open it up. Why can it not be made public and why can this parliament and the public not have access to it?

[David Anderson, Liberal, Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is confusing two things. First, the discussion of his first question is about the technical hearings that are going on on the four options put forward by the federal government and, I might add, any other option that any other province or territory might like to put on the table in their respective jurisdictions.

That is quite separate from the second report that he is talking about, which in fact is not part of these technical discussions. We will release that in due course. It is done in a somewhat different manner than normal. It involved outside people having the control of the process and analyzing the government's performance. We will present that to him just as soon as it is ready.

Government Contracts

[Joe Clark, Progressive Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the deputy minister of public works last night told the public accounts committee “I can't account why there were no documents” in the Groupaction sponsorship files that have led to an RCMP investigation.

I have a straightforward question for the minister. Are there any other files on sponsorship or advertising contracts where payments have been made and documents are missing?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, my department for sometime now has been reviewing all of the sponsorship files between the year 1997 and the date of the audit in 2000. It is going over them one by one. Where there are issues that arise, it draws them to the attention of the appropriate authorities. That may in some cases be the auditor general. It may in other cases be the RCMP. It is pursuing every one of the files to make sure that they are properly done.

[Joe Clark, Progressive Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I can only assume from that bafflegab that there are considerably more than those that we know about. He said every one, I do not know if there are hundreds, thousands, or how many files there are where documents are missing.

May I ask the government were there occasions other than September 28, 2000 when senior officials of the Prime Minister's Office met officials of the department of public works or other departments to change the public details of an internal audit?

Several of the activities relating to sponsorship files are under RCMP investigation. In the specific case of the September 28 meeting to sanitize the public works audit, is any aspect of that meeting under RCMP investigation?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, when issues arise that are matters that raise legal questions, in the proper course of events, those matters are referred to the RCMP. Obviously the RCMP determines what it will investigate.

[Gerry Ritz, Canadian Alliance, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Mr. Speaker, according to public accounts, it pays to donate to the Liberal Party.

Groupaction received over $26 million in business contracts but only since its Liberal friends came to power in 1993. The Liberals claim this is a reputable company but the auditor general says Groupaction's photocopying is substandard. Besides that the report is still jammed in the photocopier because no one can find it.

How can the minister justify that winning big contracts is directly tied to donations back to his party?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, first of all I deny the allegation contained in the gentleman's question about the linkage.

On the issue of the quality of the work done, obviously the auditor general has expressed reservations and the government has expressed reservations. We do not defend substandard contracts.

[Gerry Ritz, Canadian Alliance, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

Mr. Speaker, someone took those contracts because they paid the bill. I guess that means they accepted them.

Claude Boulay was right when he stated that it helps to be a Liberal in order to win these big government contracts. In 1997 Groupaction gave $49,000 in donations to the Liberals. Public accounts at the same time show that Groupaction was awarded $10 million in business for that $49,000 investment. Good return. In 1998, the next year, it donated half the amount of money and received half the amount of contracts. There is the linkage. It is there.

Is it not true that the more one gives, the more one receives?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, I am aware of no such linkage whatsoever. Whenever a matter comes to my attention that raises a legal issue, that matter is put in the hands of the proper police authorities. They will investigate and the investigation will take them wherever it will.

[Pierre Brien, Bloc, Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Speaker, not only did the Prime Minister know, but the government has continued to hand out contracts, dozens and dozens of them, since August 2000, when the Prime Minister was informed of the situation.

The newspapers have reported more examples today involving the Montreal Grand Prix. To top it all, he appointed the same minister again, Alfonso Gagliano, to continue the whole operation.

Is this not proof that, far from wanting to rectify the situation, the Prime Minister had decided to keep it going?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, it was the department of public works itself that launched the internal audit. That audit resulted in corrective action beginning immediately upon the conclusion of the audit work. That corrective action has been taken all the way through the intervening years. A subsequent review confirmed that it had in fact been taken as it was promised.

This government has been determined to find out what is wrong here and to fix it.

[Pierre Brien, Bloc, Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Speaker, how can the Deputy Prime Minister justify the attitude and answers in the House of the Prime Minister, who expressed surprise, who said he wanted to tighten up the ethics code, who denied the ties between his ministers and the communication firms, when today we find out that all his answers were part of a previously hatched communication plan to limit the damage?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, as I have indicated to the House on several occasions, I have serious reservations about the use of the agencies in relation to a sponsorship program. I think we can deliver a better program at lower cost without the intervention of agencies and that is the direction I am pursuing.

[Kevin Sorenson, Canadian Alliance, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, prior to 1993, Groupaction received no business service contracts. After the Liberals come to power all of a sudden Groupaction miraculously starts to make millions of dollars, yet it has been business since 1983.

How can the minister justify that Groupaction, a company that had been in business for nearly 20 years, only began receiving contracts when the Liberals came to power?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, I have no personal knowledge of those periods of time directly, but as the hon. gentleman knows, the matter has been covered by an internal audit. It has been covered by the auditor general. A process is ongoing now that wherever there is any question that merits a police investigation that reference is automatically made.

We are determined to resolve this issue in the public interest.

[Kevin Sorenson, Canadian Alliance, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, we have heard a lot about internal inquiries. Maybe it is time for a full public inquiry.

Any legitimate business would cut off the supplier when it failed to deliver a service. The auditor general said that the delivery of service was appalling, but the government tried with all its might to justify Groupaction. On Tuesday, the minister said:

The government does not accept or condone work that is clearly substandard or deficient in the variety of ways that have been identified.

Is it not true that the only reason the government refused to cut off Groupaction was that it was a significant contributor to the--

[The Speaker]

The hon. Minister of Public Works and Government Services.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Absolutely not, Mr. Speaker. Indeed, Groupaction was cut off from the sponsorship program in March of this year by my predecessor and I obviously indicated similar action yesterday with respect to other advertising work.

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in response to opposition questions, the Prime Minister tried to lay the blame on public servants, as if they were the ones really responsible for all these scandals.

Today, we realize that the situation goes far beyond the public servants. Decisions came from the highest political level.

How can the Prime Minister justify his persistence here in the House in dumping the blame on public servants, when he knows very well that his office has been the one directly handling this business for nearly two years now?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Again, Mr. Speaker, let me review the chronology of events. It was the department of public works itself that launched the internal audit. It was the internal audit that revealed the deficiencies. A corrective plan was initiated immediately. It was implemented progressively over the following 18 months.

In the spring of this year the internal auditor was sent back in to verify that the action had in fact been taken, and that verification was there. In addition, we have called upon the auditor general and, where appropriate, the RCMP to make sure that this matter is properly disposed of, transparently, in the public interest.

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, now we have a better understanding of why the Prime Minister was so anxious to find the ones responsible for the leaks.

Is it not precisely because he know that these leaks would make it possible to trace everything back to his office, from which the whole thing has been orchestrated for the past two years?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Again, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is twisting and turning to try to make a case with respect to the Prime Minister that simply is not there.

The auditor general indicated what her concerns were with respect to certain aspects of the contracting process. The government has acted upon her initial recommendations. She has made references to the police. So have we. She will be conducting a government-wide inquiry of all advertising and sponsorship matters. The treasury board is engaged. My department is engaged. We will solve this issue.