House of Commons Hansard #46 of the 37th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was pornography.

Topics

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

5:40 p.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NS

Mr. Speaker, as the French would say, oui. There is no question at all that we have zero tolerance in all aspects of our lives and different arguments, but when it comes to child pornography we have to debate it. Yes, we should debate it, but we should get it done. As my hon. colleague from Langley—Abbotsford said, bring it here to the floor. If we can give ourselves a pay raise in three hours, surely to God we can put in legislation within one hour to protect our children from the evil effects of child pornography.

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5:40 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Chuck Strahl Canadian Alliance Fraser Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, there is one other thing I would like the member to comment on that is unacceptable in my books, which is the descriptions the member for Wild Rose, unfortunately, has to give us because we need to be shocked about this and be given some shocking descriptions.

What is shocking to me is that the commission of the act creates the commission of a crime. If the person is caught, it is a crime. However, if there are pictures of it, the distribution of the pictures is just shrugged off as a societal ill and that person will get a conditional sentence, “The person probably does not mean anything by having a picture of a one-year-old being raped or whatever. It is just a picture. Pictures cannot hurt anyone”. It is ridiculous.

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5:45 p.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NS

Mr. Speaker, whether it is distributed through broadcast stations, the Internet or by hand, it is unacceptable. It should be a criminal act with a severe punishment to teach those people a lesson they will never forget. It should send out the message to those people in this country who somehow thrive on child pornography. It is beyond me why they do it because it is unconscionable, but they do. We need to send a strong message to them that child pornography and the abuse and exploitation of our children in this regard is unacceptable, period.

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5:45 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Elsie Wayne Progressive Conservative Saint John, NB

Mr. Speaker, members usually stand in the House and say it is an honour and a privilege to speak to a certain topic. On today's topic, it tugs at my heart to have to get up and think that in Canada and in this House of Parliament we have allowed child pornography to take place for so long and we have to debate it in the House of Commons.

My colleague from Labrador was saying that there is no reason we should have to do this. We have laws for everything else. We have laws for minor offences.

This is one of the most horrible offences there is in any child's life. People can refer to artistic merit. What is artistic merit? I will say that when the police representatives from Toronto came to Ottawa and asked all of us to attend a meeting and they showed us pictures of children of what was supposed to be artistic merit, I had to put my head down and close my eyes.

Tears ran down my cheeks. I could not believe that anyone would do such a horrific thing to tiny children. This is Canada. There should not be one person in the House of Commons on either side who would stand for this sort of thing to happen.

The Liberal answer to the John Robin Sharpe case is Bill C-20. That answer is not good enough for all of us. The minister could have tightened the gap in the law with a very clear definition and determination of what constituted child pornography. He could have then outlawed it with a zero tolerance policy and said that it is not acceptable and it will not be allowed to take place in our country.

In my opinion a portion of Bill C-20 still leaves our little children very vulnerable. The bill does not answer in a positive manner the question raised in the Sharpe case. The bill will not act as a deterrent to those wishing to produce child pornography of what they call the imagination.

I have to say that those people who enter into child pornography and call it artistic merit are people who have a mental problem. Those people are not normal in any way, shape or form. In no way should they be allowed to continue down that road in our country.

When I was the mayor of the city of Saint John I was appointed to sit on the citizens forum on Canada's future. I travelled across the nation and interviewed and met with people of different cultures. There was a lawyer from Ottawa on that board with us. He said that we were dealing with the wrong thing. When I asked him what he meant, he said, “We should be dealing with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I was one who helped to draft it”. I asked him why we should be dealing with that and he said, “Because when we drafted it, we left something out. We left out responsibilities. Everybody in Canada has their rights and their freedoms, but not responsibilities”.

Everybody should have responsibilities. John Robin Sharpe should have responsibilities. He should have been taken to task by the court. In no way should that man have been able to be free after what he did with those little children.

If every member of Parliament sitting in the House of Commons looked at those pictures that the Toronto police department brought up, not one member of the House would have allowed that to take place ever again.

I think about the little children who have been put through that horrible situation and their future.

The fundamental question in this debate must centre around the harm caused to those most vulnerable in our society, the little children.

Underlying this, we must give thought to the role of the court in the context of judicial policy making as it pertains to the supremacy of Parliament and overruling Parliament. We must show how this new legislation will eradicate child pornography within the context of the artistic merit defence. Unfortunately for Canadians, the legislation does not go far enough and could once again be subjected to judicial interpretation, putting our children at risk.

There will most definitely be constitutional challenges, there is no question. The people of Canada will not allow this to take place in the future. I have to say that while the addition of a clear section for the purpose of specifically defining what constitutes child pornography is welcome, the removal of “for a sexual purpose” would, in my opinion, completely change the meaning of the legislation positively. The exclusion of these four words would send a clear message to the judiciary, removing the subjectivity of the purpose of the work and putting the emphasis on the acts described within.

I have a family. I have children and two grandchildren. I cannot believe that any of my colleagues here would allow anything like this to take place with my grandchildren. I will fight this until my dying day, until it is straightened out, so that it never happens again. I know my colleagues on the government side. I do not believe they want child pornography to take place. I do not believe that those who are sitting here tonight want to have the abuse of little tiny children called artistic merit.

All of us in the House of Commons know that anyone who would do what John Robin Sharpe did has a real mental problem. His mental problem should have been addressed. He should never have been allowed to walk out the door of the courtroom.

I understand the intent of the minister's legislation, but I fear the manner in which it is presented will not be sufficient to protect against the abhorrent creation of pornographic material depicting children. The public, along with child advocacy groups and members of the House, have called upon the government to produce a clear, concise piece of legislation which would completely remove the chance works of this nature and to see the light of day once again. Once again the minister has left open to interpretation by the courts a matter that strikes at the very heart of our democracy.

The intent of the bill is to protect children from all forms of exploitation, including child pornography, sexual exploitation, abuse and neglect. Unfortunately definitions of public good will be vague and no level of objectivity exists which will allow a court to decide what is pornographic and what is not. We have just seen that happen. Once again it will be a question of acceptability to the individual. Obviously, an argument as to what constitutes the public good will predominate, leaving our children vulnerable.

As we travel across this nation, people today stop and ask what has happened to Canada and what is taking place with the types of bills which are before the House of Commons, especially those with regard to what we are debating here tonight. Even more so they are asking about the traditional family. We are moving in the wrong direction. I have to say that for most of us who speak out, the majority of Canadians from coast to coast are with us. They do not want to see any child being abused in this manner. If anyone sitting in the House thinks this does not abuse a child, then there is something wrong.

The overall effect of the Sharpe decision by Mr. Justice Shaw was to leave many in society in dismay to find that a learned judge would in fact open the door to potential pedophiles and those who take advantage of youth, those who denigrate images and engage in writings that have a very corrosive effect on the norms in our society. Works of this nature go against the very fabric of what is acceptable in a moral and just society. There can be no denial that a direct correlation exists between the fantasies of sick individuals and harm to our children.

As I said at the beginning of my remarks, these people are sick. They are not normal. Why should any court or any judge be in favour of what these people are doing instead of looking after the little child out there? Why risk the potential danger when the collective will of the people is to see this material stricken from existence? In handing down the Sharpe decision, Justice Shaw effectively broadened the interpretation of the current defence of artistic merit. I cannot believe that anyone in our judicial system could do the likes of that.

What does that say to all the others out there who are doing the same thing? It says it is okay. It says these people can do whatever they want with our little ones because when they go to court they will not be found guilty. They will be given a little slap on the wrist and that will be it.

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5:55 p.m.

An hon. member

Shameful.

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5:55 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Elsie Wayne Progressive Conservative Saint John, NB

It is shameful, and I never thought when I came up here in 1993 that I would ever have to stand in the House of Commons on behalf of a tiny child and ask my colleagues on the government side to make the right decision.

As I have stated before, when I brought up the Charter of Rights and Freedoms one other time in the House of Commons, a lot of my colleagues on the government side said I would never get an amendment to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms putting in responsibilities because no one would allow any constitutional changes. It is now the time if the courts are to dictate to us what is right or wrong for the children of Canada, for those little innocent babies out there. If anyone in the House had seen those videos and pictures, I do not believe they would ever vote in favour of this legislation without amendments.

The contention is that section 1 limits are justifiable in this case and are correct when weighed against the potential harm to children and the intent of Parliament to protect the rights of those most vulnerable. Simply put, it is my belief that the Supreme Court erred when it favourably interpreted the Shaw decision. Unfortunately, it seems that the minister's lawyers have weighed the rights of the individual against the rights of the child. We are once again left with an attempt to correct what the Canadian public realizes is a very serious problem.

If Liberal members are unwilling to protect the rights of children and, by extension, their families, I suggest that at the very least they take the opportunity presented in the upcoming budget to consider financially supporting victims of crime.

The Progressive Conservative Party has been supportive in the past of the law enforcement community, victims' groups and child advocates who are constantly tasked and constantly struggling with the lack of resources available to them. As I have said before, what could be a more fundamental issue? We know that the lasting impact on victims of sexual abuse is sometimes a life sentence. Very often, the mental anguish and the detrimental effect on the development of young people is everlasting. It is certainly incumbent upon Parliament to take every available opportunity to make this a safer and kinder society.

There is a need for victims to have more support, a stronger voice, an ability to be heard in a substantive way by the individuals who ultimately will decide whether a person will be incarcerated and, after the fact, whether that person will be released. It talks directly to the issue of respect for the dignity of victims. It is clear that there has to be an equitable approach taken by the government. That is why we need a victims' ombudsman office, an idea that was brought up today by my colleague from Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough.

We have a budget specifically set aside for the commissioner of corrections to deal with the concerns, some legitimate, some not, of federal inmates. There is a federal budget allocated to ensure that inmates, some of whom are serving time for absolutely heinous crimes and have victimized numerous citizens, have an office where they can go if their situation in prison is not to their liking. Yet victims very often are completely ignored and they have no outlet, no central office in the country where they can go to find out about important things like parole hearings or information pertaining to response to treatment.

While we debate the merits of this bill, elevating the philosophical discussion of public good, it becomes evident that this legislation is a far cry from solving the problems associated with the Shaw decision. For the sake of children, every member on the government side and in the House of Commons must do better. They have the ability to make a substantial difference in the lives of all victims in the upcoming budget. I cannot believe that any one of us would want to sit here and allow a child or a young person to be abused in the manner in which they are being abused at the present time. Because of the decision brought down in the Robin Sharpe trial, I have to say that now offenders have the freedom to do just about anything. There is no way that in this country called Canada we should ever allow this to continue.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

6 p.m.

An hon. member

We shouldn't tolerate it.

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6 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Elsie Wayne Progressive Conservative Saint John, NB

We should not tolerate it. Not one person in the House should tolerate it. If ever there were a subject, if ever there were an issue in the House whereby all of us should say to the minister that we want the strongest legislation to correct this, this is it. We want it done now. If all our colleagues on the government side unite with the rest of us, we can do that.

We talk about our relationship with other countries. Let me say that if we were to correct this one and bring in the right legislation, our friends across the border would be singing the praises of Canada. They would be singing our praises all over the world. That is not the way it is now. They will not be singing our praises. They will not be saying that we have done the right thing again.

I really and truly cannot imagine that any one of us here wants to see a little child abused in the manner we have seen. When the members of the police department of one of the largest cities in Canada came to Ottawa to ask us to please give them the tools so they can do the job, they were ignored. The government did not give them the tools to do the job with what has been taking place. This does not give them all that they need. They need more and more. Let us give them everything they need and they will go out and help to clean this up. Then these people will not be doing what is called artistic merit.

We have to send them the right message. It depends on what we do with what comes before the House on this subject. We must give them the right message and we have to do it now. I call on all members across the way who are listening to everything I have said tonight to make sure they put through the proper amendments to the bill that is before us to make sure that those children are protected for the rest of their lives.

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6:05 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Chuck Cadman Canadian Alliance Surrey North, BC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. member for her submission. She brings a special perspective that only a granny could bring into this debate. Some time ago, I too was there at the same meeting that she speaks of and I certainly saw her reaction to some of the images the Toronto police were showing us.

However, this goes beyond just what is being done to these children. It goes beyond the trauma or the physical injury that is inflicted on them. Many of these children, if they survive this, go on to become the kids that we see on the “kiddie strolls” in our major cities: the child prostitutes, the child workers in the sex trade.

I wonder if the member has any comments on that aspect about the problems that are created later on and also the problems that the families suffer.

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6:05 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Elsie Wayne Progressive Conservative Saint John, NB

Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague is absolutely correct. It has a lifelong, lasting effect on all of these children. The sex trade is out there because nobody corrected it. Nobody did anything. Nobody showed those little children that this is wrong. Nobody took them into their arms and said they were going to correct it and take care of them.

Subclause 7(1) of Bill C-20 amends subsection 163.1(1) of the Criminal Code, defining child pornography to include

any written material the dominant characteristic of which is the description, for a sexual purpose, of sexual activity with a person under the age of eighteen years--

That addition of a clear section for the purpose of specifically defining what constitutes child pornography is welcome. As I have stated concerning the removal of “for a sexual purpose”, we know, I know and everybody in the House knows that this is what this is all about for those people. That is what it is all about. It does have an effect on the families down the road and on those little children.

We owe it to those little children to correct this. We owe it to those little children, and I cry out to members tonight, like never before in the House of Commons. I would like to see us bring forth the changes we need, the additions to this bill, and we will all vote in favour of it, if it is done in the proper fashion, if we know it is going to protect them for the rest of their lives.

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6:05 p.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NS

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague from Saint John, New Brunswick, for her comments. I also would like to ask for her comments regarding my previous discussion on Internet pornography when it comes to children.

Part of Bill C-234, which was introduced into the House close to eight years ago by my former colleague and is still here now, basically states to Internet service providers that they themselves have a responsibility to monitor and eradicate child pornography on the sites provided through their services. I have received a lot of flak from some Internet service providers who have threatened me with trying to eliminate me from my electoral seat if I indeed pursue this legislation any further.

The member for Wild Rose said that he would look at something of this nature with a favourable view, so I would like the hon. member from Saint John, New Brunswick, to answer the following question. Does she or does her party believe that Internet service providers that provide the services for child pornographers, unwittingly, of course, because I do not think they do it on purpose, have a responsibility through legislation to ensure that they themselves do everything they can to make sure their services are not used for the exploitation of child pornography? In my opinion, they do.

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6:10 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Elsie Wayne Progressive Conservative Saint John, NB

Mr. Speaker, that is another area that has to be addressed and it needs to be addressed immediately. The Internet has created a major problem when it comes to child pornography. Yes, those who are in charge of it should be held totally responsible for it. It is happening all across the nation. I am getting all kinds of calls on this, from down in the U.S.A. and so on.

Yes, we need to take a stand. We need to have legislation in place which says that anybody on the Internet who is dealing with child pornography should be held totally responsible and should be taken to court. I mean it. As for them not having control of it, they are supposed to have control of it and monitor it. They are the ones who should be held responsible.

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6:10 p.m.

An hon. member

Lose their licence.

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6:10 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Elsie Wayne Progressive Conservative Saint John, NB

Yes, they should lose their licence.

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6:10 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Myron Thompson Canadian Alliance Wild Rose, AB

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the comments from the member. I know where she is coming from. She is a grandma. I am a grandpa. I have seven grandchildren. She has two. That is insignificant; there are numbers of children out there.

I wonder if the member feels as much urgency about this issue as I do, the urgency that would say to me not to send this bill to committee as is, because it could be in that committee for days, weeks and months. It is a huge bill. It has everything under the sun in it. It could be debated on and on. I feel it is so urgent that we should take the section on child pornography out of this bill and set it before the House immediately to be addressed, just that particular portion, and we should do it now.

Lord knows, I have been here since 1993 as well and we have addressed this issue many times. It is ten years later and it is still not fixed. I am not sure if I have another ten years to wait, but I sure want to see it fixed and fixed now. Nothing would make me happier than to see the justice minister walk through those curtains and say, “I have decided that child pornography section is so urgent to enforce that we will put this before the House immediately to address and fix it now”. Would the member support that idea?

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6:10 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Elsie Wayne Progressive Conservative Saint John, NB

Mr. Speaker, I certainly would support that. This bill should be divided. Child pornography should be a separate vote in the House of Commons. It should be taken out of the bill right now. The biggest problem we have is that if they do not and if we defeat it probably nothing will ever come up in the House of Commons. However even if we vote against it, it will not be defeated because the Liberals will have everybody in every seat to make sure they get what they want.

We must move amendments if they do not divide the bill and allow those two votes in the House of Commons, which they should. We divided Bill C-15. If the majority of Liberals were to divide the bill I would get down and say a prayer right here in the House of Commons for each and every one them. So help me, I would. However I cannot see it happening. If it does not, then we need to make sure the amendments and the changes take place.

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6:10 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Chuck Strahl Canadian Alliance Fraser Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, it has been an interesting debate this afternoon. I thank the member for her contribution. As another grandfather in the grandparent fraternity I share her concern. Although I think it crosses all kinds of lines, this is a broad concern.

It was interesting to hear what the member from the NDP said earlier about the Internet providers and how maybe we need to deal with them on this pornography issue.

There was an article in Quorum today stating that Industry Canada was considering legislating against junk e-mail. It is very concerned about junk e-mail and has said that it may have to legislate as one way to crack down on unsolicited bulk e-mail because it is seizing the nation.

Junk e-mail is a problem and it kind of annoys me but if they have the wherewithal over on that side of the House to think about legislating against Internet use for e-mail but do not have the wherewithal to legislate against Internet use of pornography, where are their priorities? If Industry Canada can do something about it because it does not want too many advertisements on my computer, I might appreciate that, but I, along with others, will get down on my knees and thank them all if they will legislate against child pornography, which is not just an annoyance, it is a criminal act. It is a travesty against young people around the world, both the victims and those who end up watching it who are victims of a sort too. It becomes generational.

I think I know her answer but I would like the member to speak about whether we could make child pornography and the banning of child pornography a bigger priority. Let us deal with that, I would suggest, before we deal with a real big problem like junk mail on the Internet

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6:15 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Elsie Wayne Progressive Conservative Saint John, NB

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is absolutely correct. I cannot believe that the government would bring forward legislation regarding what it calls junk mail. What does it call child pornography? Does it not call that the worst crime there is in this whole world? We do not want to let it go and we will not let it go.

We hear talk that maybe there will be an election in early 2004. I want to tell the House that child pornography will be the number one issue in that election if it is not corrected right now. I mean it. It will not be junk mail; it will be child pornography.

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6:15 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Betty Hinton Canadian Alliance Kamloops, Thompson And Highland Valleys, BC

Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member for Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca.

I am pleased to rise and speak today to Bill C-20, an act to amend the Criminal Code with respect to protecting children and other vulnerable persons.

This subject has been high on the agenda of our party for a long time. For years the Canadian Alliance has demanded a national child registry and only recently has the government acted. We have demanded harsher punishments for child predators and more resources for law enforcement to catch them. We have tirelessly advocated raising the age of consent from 14 to 16 so that those vulnerable young people have less of a chance of being cruelly victimized.

I am sad to say that in all these regards the bill is sorely lacking. There are no more resources for law enforcement to do its job, there are longer sentences but not mandatory ones, and the age of consent is still at a shameful 14 years.

Last year, John Robin Sharpe argued before the Supreme Court of Canada that he had the constitutional right to possess child pornography. Sharpe had been arrested in British Columbia after police found photographs of nude boys and sexually explicit written material, most of which were described as extremely violent, and included children as young as six years old.

At his provincial trial in 1999, Sharpe had been acquitted of all four counts of possessing child pornography, with the judge striking down the child pornography law. While the Supreme Court decision substantially upheld Canada's laws against child pornography, the exception created for personal writings was defined in such a broad way that violent and anti-social text, like Sharpe's, could still be justified under the law.

These upsetting court decisions do not properly reflect society's interest in protecting children from sexual predators. Children are the most valuable members of our society and the law must recognize that fact and the courts must uphold it.

This necessity has become increasingly apparent over the recent revelations of project snowball. Two weeks ago, project snowball, an offshoot of a worldwide child porn investigation into 250,000 people, has turned over names from every province and territory to Canadian authorities. These individuals have been paying by credit card to access a U.S. child porn site which a Toronto police detective said included “some of the most evil images of child abuse you can imagine”.

Unfortunately we cannot be sure that those individuals will ever face justice for their crimes. Police stated last week that they had the names of more than 2,300 suspected pedophiles across Canada but that only 5% had been arrested because Canada lacked a national strategy for targeting sex offenders. A lack of resources and appropriate legal tools stand in the way of an effective response to this growing problem. Canadian police are hamstrung and Ottawa must do more. We do not see any help forthcoming in the bill which will help to solve the problems our police are facing.

While police are not given the resources to do their jobs, the government will point to its bill and say that children will be better protected. Bill C-20 aims to achieve this by changing the defence for possessing child pornography from the current artistic merit to public good. The word swap is simply repackaging the same thing. It is something we see from the government time and time again.

The public good defence that the government now heralds is almost identical to the old community standards defence that was rendered ineffective by the Supreme Court in 1992. There is no positive benefit in recycling laws that have already been discredited by the courts. To do so risks even more child predators continuing to walk free.

In order to create the impression that this law will be tough on child exploitation, the bill proposes to increase the maximum sentences for exploiting children. Unfortunately, the courts have consistently failed to proportionately increase punishments when the maximum allowable sentences are raised. Child pornographers will still be entitled to house arrest, an alternative to prison. Without minimum sentences, pedophiles, like John Robin Sharpe, will continue to escape custodial sentences even when they are convicted.

There are areas in the bill that will increase the maximum punishment for child related offences. These include sexual offences, failing to provide the necessities of life and abandoning a child. The government proclaims that children will be better protected because there will be a greater deterrent to the offences that pedophiles and others who harm children may commit. This is simply not true.

Currently the norm seems to be for pedophiles to be given a slap on the wrist and to serve their time in the community, usually the same one in which they have committed their crime.

In this vein I would like to bring to the attention of the House examples of what a lack of minimum sentences result in. John Robin Sharpe received just four months of house arrest at home instead of doing prison time.

Recently five London, Ontario men, aged 33 to 56, nabbed in the Snowball investigation were charged with offences such as possession of child pornography, production of child pornography and distribution of child pornography. The police described the Internet photographs these men had as some of the most evil images of child abuse we could imagine. Two of those men were recently sentenced with both receiving a six month conditional sentence and eighteen months probation. Is that justice?

The Ontario Provincial Police have urged tougher sentencing for those convicted of child pornography offences saying, “Light sentences in Canada are a joke”.

These penalties do not reflect the severity of these crimes. What has been done to these children to make these terrible photographs is simply unacceptable. We will continue to see more of these types of sentences as the individuals caught in Project Snowball make their way through the courts. We will see pedophiles getting off pretty much scot-free while lives are destroyed to please perverted minds.

Another serious flaw in the bill is the continued refusal by the government to raise the minimum age of consent from age 14 to 16. This is clearly shown by the comments by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada who when performing yet another stalling tactic stated that, “there are many social and cultural differences that have to be reflected in the law and we will work within the consensus”. It is unfortunate that working with its cultural consensus results in a toothless bill. I would like this parliamentary secretary to name the culture to which he referred. There are no cultures in Canada that I am aware of that would accept this kind of child abuse.

It still seems under this government parents and law enforcement officers will never see the legal protection and the authority they need to give these children the proper protection from predators. The age of consent in Canada remains at 14 years even though most western democratic nations have legislated a 16 year age minimum.

The Liberal proposal is to bring in a law that requires the court to analyze each case to see if the adult is exploiting the child. This approach is cumbersome and complex and it fails to create the certainty of protection that children require.

Canada's low age of sexual consent coupled with the government's failure to protect children from sexual predators has resulted in Canada potentially becoming a preferred destination for sexual predators to prey on innocent Canadian children.

The need to protect innocent and vulnerable children from pimps and other adult sexual predators is a matter of the highest priority. Even the Department of Justice's own 1999 consultation paper expressed the view that the current age of consent was “too low to provide effective protection from sexual exploitation by adults”. Until this legislation contains provisions to raise the age of consent to 16, neither I nor my party can support the bill.

The federal government's lack of action has given rise to the belief among Canadians that the rights of pedophiles, pornographers and other sexual predators are more important than protecting our own children.

A Canadian Alliance government would institute a comprehensive sexual offence registry, implement tougher sentences for pedophiles, eliminate all the legal loopholes for child pornography, streamline the administrative process for convicting sex offenders and prohibit all adult-child sexual contact.

Possessing child pornography is not a victimless crime. It degrades, dehumanizes and sexually exploits children. It destroys innocence.

One thing Canadians will see in Bill C-20 is that the government is more concerned with protecting the rights of child predators than in making the necessary changes to protect children. Until our parents and law enforcement agencies have the tools to clamp down on these dangerous sexual predators, they will continue to walk free. We cannot allow that to happen.

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6:25 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Dick Harris Canadian Alliance Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, I sat here listening to the member for Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys and I join in her comments in describing in excellent terms how serious a problem Canada is facing in dealing with child pornographers and the whole issue of child pornography.

I have been watching the government members on the other side. Judging from their disinterest in the debate, we would think that we were discussing actuarial tables of the Canada pension plan or some other dry subject. We are talking about protecting the children of this land.

I wish to ask the member for Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys about the total lack of attention, the disinterest that the government has shown on the whole issue of child pornography. Even members who should be most connected to the bill have little regard for the debate today. Is it just the arrogance on behalf--

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6:25 p.m.

The Speaker

The hon. member will want to be careful to avoid suggestions as to presence or absence of members. I know that is not his intention in his question. He is talking about attention to the debate. The hon. member for Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys will want to respond.

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6:25 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Betty Hinton Canadian Alliance Kamloops, Thompson And Highland Valleys, BC

Mr. Speaker, I will bear your words in mind. I will be very careful how I answer the question.

I suppose the best way to answer it without offending anyone on the other side of the House would be to say that we have had enough evidence in the House of Commons over the last two years that I have been here to know that the government is not very good at managing any natural resource of the country. I make specific reference to the softwood lumber agreement.

If the House needs to have an example of the most important and the most precious natural resource that Canada has, it is our children. The government has made no attempt to make certain that they are protected from the kinds of people who are offending in this way.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

6:30 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Myron Thompson Canadian Alliance Wild Rose, AB

Mr. Speaker, I have a quick question. I want to know how many more people feel the same about this and I would like to ask a lot of Liberals that same thing. Is this issue important enough that possibly out of this huge bill with so many issues in it that this section could be pulled and dealt with on its own? We could deal with it quickly and in a manner that would be expected by every voter in the country who put those people across the way in Parliament and who put the rest of us in Parliament. Canadians want us to get rid of, to stamp out pornography. Would the member agree that we could do that if we had the will?

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

6:30 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Betty Hinton Canadian Alliance Kamloops, Thompson And Highland Valleys, BC

Mr. Speaker, I would agree that we could do that if we had the will. It is also a very good idea but I would caution my hon. colleague, whom I treasure, to not hold his breath.

A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to have been moved.

Criminal CodeAdjournment Proceedings

6:30 p.m.

Bloc

Odina Desrochers Bloc Lotbinière—L'Érable, QC

Mr. Speaker, since this is the first time I have had the opportunity to speak in the House in 2003, I would like to wish a happy New Year to all my constituents in Lotbinière—L'Érable and to all Quebeckers.

Once again, I rise in this House to talk about the report of the Auditor General. As you probably know, last December, a bombshell was dropped when the media and the public learned that the cost of the gun registry would reach $1 billion.

In fact, this afternoon, the public accounts committee as well as my colleagues from the Canadian Alliance and the Conservative Party were told that, depending upon their availability, at least two ministers would appear before the committee on February 24, to explain the situation. The Standing Committee on Public Accounts, as we know, examines why there are so many discrepancies and why the Auditor General feels the need to criticize certain situations.

The current Minister of Justice and the President of the Treasury Board will therefore have to appear before us on or about February 24 to explain why the costs have gone from $2 million to $1 billion. We had been told that the costs would be $117 million and that users would pay $115 million. We know now what the costs are.

When the Auditor General tabled her report, the employment insurance fund was mentioned once again. The problem of the fund—as you know—is the result of a Liberal invention that allows the Minister of Finance to rack up surpluses every year and to shift them into the consolidated fund. Thus, the debt is being reduced, but with money belonging to small and medium businesses and to workers, which is inconceivable.

This is the third time that the Auditor General has asked the current government to legislate and to try to bring more equity into the current employment insurance plan.

Also, when we talked about the Auditor General's report that was tabled last December, we also mentioned the many reports that are required from first nations for them to receive money. All this leads to a bureaucracy that is extremely costly, which is detrimental to the first nations.

When I asked the question to the Minister of Finance last December, I was trying to find out when the federal government would put an end to this waste of money all over the place. I am thinking in particular of the waste in the gun control program and in the employment insurance fund. We also talked about the 20 million social insurance numbers that have gone missing.

So, this government is behaving somewhat like an amateur; it is improvising. Who has to pay, in the end? It is the taxpayers and the low income earners. This is why members of the Bloc Quebecois have risen many times in the House and tried to get some explanations.

Tonight, I am asking the question once again: when will the federal government put an end to this waste in the gun control program and in the management of the employment insurance fund and at Indian Affairs? Let us not forget that each time the Auditor General tables her report, she questions the accounting methods used by the Minister of Finance. This government creates foundations to try to invest money without the foundations being accountable to the House of Commons.