House of Commons Hansard #47 of the 37th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was agency.

Topics

Youth Criminal Justice ActPrivate Members' Business

6:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed

Youth Criminal Justice ActPrivate Members' Business

6:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

No

Youth Criminal Justice ActPrivate Members' Business

6:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

Is there agreement to refer this private member's bill to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights?

Youth Criminal Justice ActPrivate Members' Business

6:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed

Youth Criminal Justice ActPrivate Members' Business

6:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

No

Youth Criminal Justice ActPrivate Members' Business

6:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

The time provided for the consideration of private members' business has now expired. As the motion has not been designated as a votable item, the order is dropped from the Order Paper.

A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to have been moved.

Youth Criminal Justice ActAdjournment Proceedings

6:45 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Jim Pankiw Canadian Alliance Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

Madam Speaker, I previously raised this question with the Solicitor General but I did not receive a response. Well, I received a response, but his reply was that he rejected the premise of the question which was based on an access to information request. Therefore, he was in essence rejecting the RCMP's own numbers.

I will first repeat the question that I posed to the Solicitor General:

Despite public demands that equality of opportunity and merit replace race based hiring, Saskatoon Police Services is imposing a racist recruiting system. This mimics the RCMP.

Access to information reveals that in order to meet racial quotas, the RCMP pass mark for target group recruits is 21 points lower than the non-target groups.

How does the Solicitor General justify a racist hiring scheme to non-target group recruits, who are denied an RCMP career simply because they are the wrong skin colour?

That is a pretty simple, straightforward question to which I did not receive an adequate response from the Solicitor General, and is why I am now before the House again re-asking the question.

I realize the parliamentary secretary will be answering on behalf of the Solicitor General. I would like to point out for the parliamentary secretary that polls show that 86% of Canadians oppose race based quota hiring systems. They favour instead hiring people based on merit and a system that would respect their qualifications. The reason there is such high support for equal opportunity for everyone and racial discrimination against no one in the hiring process is because of a simple, fundamental, undeniable, and irrefutable fact. It is not possible to discriminate in favour of individuals because of their race without unfairly discriminating against somebody else because of their race or skin colour. To do so is racist.

The question could be posed in a slightly different way, so I will offer this to the parliamentary secretary for her consideration and response as well.

I would like to ask her what she proposes be said to the people whose careers, dreams and aspirations of being an RCMP officer are denied because they are the wrong skin colour, because they have been discriminated against by an artificial, arbitrary hiring policy that discriminates for and against people on the basis of skin colour.

What would she say to the people who are denied their dreams and aspirations of a career in the RCMP simply because they are the wrong skin colour? Conversely, I would also like to know what she proposes be said to the people who are discriminated in favour of and who have been granted an ability to have a career with the RCMP because of their skin colour, because it would seem to me that is very insulting and demeaning to the people who have been discriminated in favour of as well.

I realize she has probably been provided with a canned speech from the Solicitor General, but those are serious questions and they deserve a direct answer. I would like to remind the parliamentary secretary that her response to this will be permanently recorded in Hansard .

I have repeatedly called for an end to racial inventories, racial quotas, racial profiling and race based hiring. I wonder if she would be prepared to take that same stand on the permanent record or if she wants to be permanently recorded as having supported racist hiring programs.

Youth Criminal Justice ActAdjournment Proceedings

6:45 p.m.

Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine Québec

Liberal

Marlene Jennings LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Solicitor General of Canada

Madam Speaker, as my hon. colleagues in the House know very well, the RCMP is committed to diversity, sensitivity and professionalism.

As a national police service, the RCMP recruits its personnel on a national level to address the needs of specific communities across Canada. In order to meet the evolving needs of Canada's diverse and changing society, the RCMP must be representative of the communities it serves and the overwhelming majority of Canadians agree with that premise. This representation is crucial to community policing as it will provide the RCMP with the credibility, cooperation and the insight it requires to better serve those communities.

Recruiting policies and practices remain flexible to allow the force the ability to serve its client in an effective and efficient manner while meeting its strategic priorities for all Canadians and for Canada.

The RCMP is world renowned for its high training standards and I can assure members, and particularly the member for Saskatoon—Humboldt, that all RCMP applicants, including those from designated groups, must meet the same stringent entry requirements.

The RCMP police aptitude test, of which the member refers to, is only one of a number of selection tools used by the RCMP in determining the suitability of an applicant. Applicants for the cadet training program are not only chosen for their individual suitability, but also for their potential to contribute to the overall effectiveness of the organization, its community policing strategies, and its commitment to meet diverse community needs. It is the RCMP's practice to select a proportion of qualified candidates from the following groups: visible minorities, aboriginal peoples, women, and Caucasian males.

The member for Saskatoon—Humboldt is in one of those groups. I will leave it to him to define which group he belongs to.

I can assure members that the RCMP's recruiting policies allow for the selection of those individuals in Canada who possess the qualities necessary to provide the RCMP's high standard of policing services to the Canadian public.

The member talks about race based hiring. In so doing, the member defines the equity employment program and the designation under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 15, as race based hiring. In fact it is not. Any equity employment program which is administered by the federal government or any federal government department is based on the premise that candidates who are selected must be qualified.

Once they have been qualified, the employer can hire or select a candidate from one of the designated groups. But those individuals, regardless whether they belong to a designated group or not, must qualify for the position. They must show that they have the academic and professional requirements as well as the aptitude. The selection process will use a variety of tools. One of the tools that the RCMP uses is the police aptitude test, but it is only one of them. When it comes to the actual hiring or selection, it uses the global result of each candidate.

Youth Criminal Justice ActAdjournment Proceedings

6:50 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Jim Pankiw Canadian Alliance Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

Madam Speaker, first, the member referred to section 15 of the constitution but in fact that section has two parts. The second part is what allows discriminatory hiring policies to be implemented and to be constitutional even though they discriminate against people on the basis of race; and we have Pierre Trudeau to thank for that.

She said that the RCMP wants its workforce to be representative of the community and that the majority of people support that. The majority of people do not support race based hiring programs. The majority of people, 86%, believe that our RCMP officers should be the most capable and most qualified people who are available to be hired for the job. The fact of the matter is that in the test to determine whether or not a person advances in the recruitment process of the RCMP, the target group recruits' average was 21 points lower than the non-target groups.

Therefore, racial discrimination is taking place in the hiring process of the RCMP--

Youth Criminal Justice ActAdjournment Proceedings

6:50 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

The hon. Parliamentary Secretary to the Solicitor General.

Youth Criminal Justice ActAdjournment Proceedings

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Madam Speaker, there is no discrimination in terms of hiring by the RCMP. There is no race based hiring by the RCMP. There is an equity employment program and a whole process of selection that has been developed under the program.

The candidates who are selected, whether they be women, members of visible minorities or members of aboriginal communities or first nations, have qualified and proven through the entire selection process that they are qualified to be hired as RCMP agents or to be brought into the cadet program.

The hon. member for Saskatoon--Humboldt entirely misrepresents the situation. When he said that 86% of Canadians opposed race based hiring, that is probably the only thing he said that was true. However what he has not said is that when Canadians are asked if they agree with an equity employment program that will designate certain groups on the basis of previous obstacles but who have to be qualified for the jobs, they will support it and do support it.

Youth Criminal Justice ActAdjournment Proceedings

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

Madam Speaker, I would like to speak to the current state of affairs as it pertains to the security measures that will be put in place on the streets of Ottawa adjacent to the U.S. embassy and its neighbours in the riding of Ottawa--Vanier.

I have asked the Solicitor General questions on a number of occasions. I am not totally satisfied with the responses.

I have some very serious reservations regarding the effectiveness of the security measures, the ones that are proposed, and whether or not the crux of the problem is actually being addressed. I repeat that I am not convinced that a buffer that can only be described as a widened sidewalk with 6,000 pound flower containers made of cement can safely deter any threat on the embassy and consequently provide an iota of additional safety to the constituents I represent in Ottawa--Vanier.

The RCMP has informed my office that in the event of a bomb blast, without the buffer the blast would seek the line of least resistance and create more damage across the street than if the bomb went off by the new extended sidewalk. I have also been told by the RCMP that in the event of a bomb blast, the collateral damage to the surrounding buildings would be enormous whether the buffer was there or not. The use of this buffer is tantamount therefore to using smoke and mirrors to disguise the real problem.

The U.S. embassy should never have been located in the core of our city. Everyone will agree that the embassy is a potential target. Whether it is a soft or a hard target as defined by the RCMP, it is still a target. We cannot ignore the vulnerability of its location on the neighbouring residences and businesses and the people who live and work there.

The security buffer that the city plans to put in place is supposed to be a temporary measure, but I believe we need to address the problem on a permanent basis, that being the miscalculated location of the embassy itself. I am not alone in these convictions. I would like to read some of the comments that were made at an open house hosted by the city of Ottawa on November 26.

The question put to the people was whether they agreed with the recommended solution, which is the buffer of 6,000 pound cement flowerpots and an extended sidewalk, removing a lane of traffic. Some of the responses were:

No, I honestly feel that they are not necessary. The federal government should have thought of this before allowing the U.S. embassy to be built in such a confined central and potentially vulnerable location. I fail to see how the closure of one lane on each street adds any more protection to the building.

No, any of these solutions provide only a perception of security. It would be impossible to provide total security to the embassy if it remains in that location. The measures that are proposed to increase the sense of security will have a negative impact on the aesthetic and traffic design of the area while doing little to actually increase the level of security.

No, I seriously doubt that the third lane will ever be used again for traffic. The most powerful nation will continue to face threats. I believe the U.S. embassy should be relocated to a site which is not surrounded by roads to conform with U.S. policy on the location of embassies.

I would like to conclude by reading an excerpt from a letter by the chargé d'affaires for the embassy of the United States of America to the National Capital Commission dated December 10, 1984:

The Department of State is re-examining its current chancery building plans in light of recent terrorist attacks against the U.S. facilities worldwide. The department has established more stringent security criteria which it is applying to all new building projects. After reviewing and applying these standards to our current plans, the department recently informed the embassy that the Sussex Drive site has very serious shortcomings from a security standpoint.

I and my colleagues voted in the House in the last budget billions of dollars to increase the security of Canadians. I believe that the residents of Ottawa--Vanier and of the national capital region are owed the same considerations as other Canadians. We need to seriously--

Youth Criminal Justice ActAdjournment Proceedings

6:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

The hon. Parliamentary Secretary to the Solicitor General.

Youth Criminal Justice ActAdjournment Proceedings

6:55 p.m.

Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine Québec

Liberal

Marlene Jennings LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Solicitor General of Canada

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank my hon. colleague from Ottawa—Vanier for his comments and his very impassioned speech on the issue of whether or not the American embassy should be located where in fact it is located.

Unfortunately I will not be able to address that issue directly. I had prepared my response on behalf of the Solicitor General based on the member's previous question which is why we are here at the late show. It dealt specifically with the issue of the security of the residents in that area and the issue of the cement barriers.

I apologize to the member, but I will try to give a full and clear response to the question that the member for Ottawa—Vanier asked in the House previously.

First of all, I would like to assure the member that the RCMP takes the security of all Canadians very seriously. Its role is in fact to ensure the security and the safety of all internationally protected persons in Canada according to domestic and international obligations. As the member for Ottawa--Vanier well knows, this includes the national capital region.

I have been advised by the RCMP that the security measures in place are commensurate with the existing threat assessment. The RCMP continually re-evaluates threat assessments and adjusts security requirements as warranted by the circumstances.

There are currently various security measures for the U.S. embassy which take into account the safety of the international community as well as the safety of the community at large. This includes measures in and around the area to control traffic.

I am also informed that the traffic rerouting on Clarence Street, as well as the barricades in question, those cement barricades that the member has referred to, provide maximum protection for this part of the city.

Following the implementation of the security measures around the U.S. embassy, the RCMP in consultation with the Ottawa police service, which is in fact responsible for the traffic flow on city streets, did meet and consult with local members of Parliament, the city of Ottawa, and the business owners and residents of lowertown in Ottawa.

I also understand that the U.S. embassy officials have also met with local residents and business owners in the area and are attempting to reach a mutually acceptable solution which will maintain security around the embassy and impede in the least possible way the lives and the businesses in that area.

Senior officials of the RCMP continue to work with law enforcement officials of the U.S. embassy and of the city of Ottawa with regard to this matter. They and their law enforcement partners will continue to re-evaluate the perceived threat assessment and level of security in consultation with members of the community. They will also continue to monitor the impact of the security measures on the community.

Those security measures will continue to be adjusted in response to security requirements. As I mentioned at the beginning, it would be inappropriate for me to comment further on any specific security measures undertaken by the RCMP or its partners.

Youth Criminal Justice ActAdjournment Proceedings

7 p.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

Madam Speaker, the difficulty I have with this approach is they are trying to give an impression that this is a temporary measure. I dare the government, and I understand it is not fair to the parliamentary secretary to the minister as she cannot give assurances today, that the Government of Canada help the city of Ottawa pay for these additional measures, the widened sidewalk, the 6,000 pound cement flowerpots and perhaps remove them in a year's time when the threat assessment should be reduced for whatever reason.

When talking about smoke and mirrors, it is not the case. We are not talking about something that is temporary. It is very much permanent.

It is a very serious question. At the time the decision was made to locate the embassy there, if the people of this city had been told that it would entail the massive security measures and the loss of two traffic lanes in the core of our city, never would they have agreed to have the embassy located where it is. It is time to move it.

Youth Criminal Justice ActAdjournment Proceedings

7 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Madam Speaker, the citizens of Ottawa--Vanier have a wonderful representative in Parliament. He is passionate and well-informed. If it is an issue that he does not know about, he makes sure he gets the information.

The member said it himself. I am not in a position to answer that. I was not here, nor was the present Solicitor General at the time the whole issue of the location of the U.S. embassy was decided upon. I am not even aware of what the process is for that kind of decision.

Obviously, if it did not involve consultation with the local community, it may be of interest to look at what process exists today, whether or not that has been corrected, so that at least in the future that kind of consultation on that issue and the issue of security can also take place.

Youth Criminal Justice ActAdjournment Proceedings

7 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

The motion to adjourn the House is now deemed to have been adopted. The House stands adjourned until tomorrow, at 2 p.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).

(The House adjourned at 7:03 p.m.)