House of Commons Hansard #48 of the 37th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was iraq.

Topics

IraqGovernment Orders

11:40 p.m.

NDP

Alexa McDonough NDP Halifax, NS

Madam Chairman, I want to congratulate the hon. member on his speech. It was a well-informed, very intelligent and very progressive speech.

I would like him to tell me if he would agree to call a vote in the House of Commons to determine whether the hon. members are for or against entering into war against Iraq.

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11:40 p.m.

Liberal

Yvon Charbonneau Liberal Anjou—Rivière-Des-Prairies, QC

Madam Chairman, this question is often raised. Opinions vary within the various parties. Personally, I think it is important enough to warrant a vote being taken in this place.

The Constitution is said to provide that the government may make decisions on this matter, which does not mean it does not have the right and responsibility to check how the members of this House feel about it, through a vote. I think it would be interesting to go that far. Each member could vote according to his convictions and reflect the mandate they were given by their constituents. We get to vote on much less important issues. Several times each week, we vote on issues whose importance is questionable.

We are considering entering into war and getting our country involved in a war. We are talking about the lives of people in the war zone and Canadian troops. We are talking about enormous expenditures, to the tune of billions of dollars maybe. And we would get involved without seeking the advice of parliamentarians through a vote? I think there is very broad support in several parties for a vote on this issue.

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11:45 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Jason Kenney Canadian Alliance Calgary Southeast, AB

Madam Chairman, I must say that I always find it particularly distressing when members of this place stand up, as the member did, on a motion regarding the repeated failure of one of the most tyrannical regimes in the world to comply with the requirements of the international community.

The very United Nations which he applauds, Iraq has failed to comply with its resolutions. Yet he spends most of his time attacking the moral legitimacy of the United States, its head of state and says the United States is engaged in “unilateralist warmongering”.

To hear that when he is a member of a government and a citizen of a country which benefits and has for decades benefited effectively from the United States defending our sovereignty in terms of its military. We have been able to get away with the lowest defence expenditure in NATO because the United States has been prepared to defend the North American continent, and he has the temerity to get on his moral high horse and criticize the United States for, among other things, liberating the people of Afghanistan.

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11:45 p.m.

An hon. member

Oh, please.

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11:45 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Jason Kenney Canadian Alliance Calgary Southeast, AB

That is very interesting. I see one of the members from Mississauga shaking her head in disgust. Perhaps she did not see the scenes of people in Kabul greeting the soldiers who entered that city to liberate them from the Taliban regime.

I feel as if I am sitting in some sort of Noam Chomsky conspiracy theory teach-in here with people who do not live in the real world.

He says that we did not change the minds of the Taliban. What we did was to change the people in power and begin a nascent democracy in a country which desperately needs it.

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11:45 p.m.

An hon. member

Who believes that?

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11:45 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Jason Kenney Canadian Alliance Calgary Southeast, AB

Perhaps he could speak to the representatives of the government of Hamid Karzai who are trying their best to create a nascent democracy with the support of countries like Canada and the United States.

The member says his alternative is programs of co-operation and measures to promote dialogue as a solution to the problem in Iraq. My question is, is that a joke? Does he expect to change the mind of a tyrant through measures to promote dialogue and programs of co-operation? If he is opposed to sanctions and opposed to force, does he really believe that Saddam Hussein will comply with 16 UN Security Council resolutions and a ceasefire obligation by Canada engaging him in programs of co-operation and measures to promote dialogue? What planet is he living on?

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11:45 p.m.

The Assistant Deputy Chairman

I know it is late but let us try to continue in the way we have been proceeding for the last few hours.

I will allow at least one answer from the hon. member.

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11:45 p.m.

Liberal

Yvon Charbonneau Liberal Anjou—Rivière-Des-Prairies, QC

Madam Chairman, I will say to the hon. member who just asked that question that if people were less ignorant and less biased in our country, in the United States and in other countries, we could move a little closer to tolerance and understanding. If there were greater awareness in our country, in the United States and elsewhere, we could build lasting ties. Biases would disappear and dictators would not last as long.

As for human rights, we could also talk about them. There is a whole context. If we want to change certain things over time, we will not do it with bombs and wars. This only increases opposition, increases polarization and deepens resentment. There is enough of that as it is. Only by trying to work in another direction can we hope for a brighter future.

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11:50 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Bill Casey Progressive Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Madam Chairman, it has certainly been an interesting evening. I must say that I have learned a lot from members and I have come a long way.

One of the members mentioned Israel and Palestine a second ago, which reminded me of an incident a couple of weeks ago. I was on the phone to a chap in Jerusalem, a man I know quite well who worked for the department of foreign affairs in Israel. We were talking about Iraq and whether it has weapons of mass destruction. I told him that we had had a committee meeting and there was no absolute evidence to convince me that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. I was meandering around with this conversation and the phone went silent. After a minute, he said that he supposed it was all right for me sitting in Canada to speculate about weapons of mass destruction, but he was going to be fitting his children with gas masks that afternoon. That really shook me and made me think about how serious this subject is. We in Canada are relatively distant and protected and safe, but many of the people who may be affected by what happens as a result of UN resolution 1441 are certainly in a different predicament.

This debate is certainly an interesting debate, but like many others, in fact almost all, what I have heard tonight is kind of pointless. We have shared our ideas and have tried to convince others of our points of view, but at the end of the day we will go home and this will not come to anything because there will be no vote. It makes the whole exercise relatively pointless other than letting us air our views, getting it off our chests and maybe trying to make some people understand our point of view. In the end it really does not go anywhere because there is no vote. I cannot think of any reason why there will not be a vote, but there will not be one. The debate will die and we will all go home and carry on tomorrow.

There are some common denominators from almost every speaker. I do not want to jump to conclusions, but I believe most speakers tonight have acknowledged that there is a dangerous regime in Iraq and it is very guilty of some awful offences. The regime in Iraq poses a threat to its neighbours and to other countries around the world, and the status quo is not acceptable. I think we all agree on that.

What we do not agree on is a path of action and the timing on how to deal with this issue, and those are the things I would like to talk about.

If we take the wrong path, we will pay an awful price in terms of human lives, destruction and casualties. I have read half a dozen different estimates of what the possible casualty list could look like, but one I saw today said that on the Iraqi side it could be between 1,000 and 50,000 soldiers. These are people. On the side of the allies it could be between 100 and 500 soldiers. This does not include civilian casualties and these days in a war as much as 80% of the casualties are civilians. The downside of this is absolutely incredible. We must make every possible effort we can to avoid a violent conflict.

I know that it is a serious situation, I know that the status quo is not acceptable and I know that we are dealing with a tough situation, but we cannot say we will not try this because we are fed up, time has run out, we will go to war, and 50,000 people may die. We have to do our job here and the United Nations has to do its job. The Americans have to do their job. All countries have to do their job because the downside is absolutely horrendous.

If there is a war in Iraq, we know what the outcome will be. Allies on the side of the United States will win the war. There is no question about that, but what will the price be on both sides? Whatever it is, it will be huge.

When this problem presented itself after years and years of failure, the United Nations dealt with it on November 8 by unanimously passing resolution 1441. The biggest part of resolution 1441 was the mandate to re-establish the weapons inspectors and put them to work under Dr. Hans Blix. Dr. Blix had no deadline for completing his work.

This is what puzzles me. I really do not understand how even after just a couple of weeks of Mr. Blix being in Iraq there was suddenly this talk: “We are getting awfully impatient. The time is up. He said lots of time. We have to move on now. There is no time. We are tired of waiting”. I do not understand that. I do not understand why the resolution was passed in the United Nations unanimously, but the same people who voted in favour of re-establishing the weapons inspectors and giving them the mandate to do their jobs right away started to say that they were fed up and did not have time.

We have to give them time. They have only been at it for 60 days. My understanding is that they do not even have all the equipment they need to detect the weapons of mass destruction, be they nuclear, chemical or biological. The inspectors must be allowed to finish the mandate they were given by a unanimous resolution passed at the United Nations.

Not only will Iraq be a victim of a war if it carries on, but if we do not allow the weapons inspectors to do their jobs I think the other victim will be the United Nations. We have heard about the shortcomings of the United Nations tonight. We have heard about its failures. There is no question about that, but if a unanimous motion of the United Nations is circumvented or sidestepped, it will be a very serious dilution of credibility for the United Nations and it will undermine any future effort that it attempts.

Dr. Blix has asked for more time to complete his mandate and I think it should be given to him, for sure. I see no reason why it should not be given to him. There is no question about the problem. There is no question about the challenge. There is no question about the threat that must be eliminated. There is no question that the first report that Iraq is not complying was very disappointing. Technically yes, but in spirit no, and it is just not good enough.

On the other hand, right now there is no imminent threat from Iraq for the United States or for any other country. The whole world is focused on Iraq. There is no threat. Again I say there is no reason not to let Hans Blix finish his job. In fact there is no reason why we should not all be trying to do everything we can to find a non-violent resolution. We should exhaust every possible alternative before we send our young people into war with the possible casualties that are predicted. When it comes to diplomacy versus violence or military action, we have to do our job. We have to do the very best we can.

There is a role for Canada. In this whole exercise we have been almost invisible around the world, but there is a role. We can demand of the United Nations, our allies and our partners that Hans Blix be given all the time he needs. Again, there is no reason not to give him time now. The system is working. The pressure is on. The inspectors are in and are able to go anywhere they want in an unfettered manner. Let us make sure they have that time. Canada can do that. Canada can lobby other countries. The Prime Minister can clearly state that we support resolution 1441 in every respect and that we insist the weapons inspectors be given the time to complete their jobs.

We should also insist that when Dr. Blix has done his report it should come back to the Security Council for a second resolution. The first resolution is not clear. It was designed to be unclear to allow it to go through and be ambiguous and I think that was a mistake. Nevertheless, that is what it is. The first resolution 1441 is ambiguous. Another thing Canada could do is have a vote in the House, but I do not think that is going to happen.

I want to remind everyone that if the war goes ahead it will not be confined to Iraq. I mentioned the man in Israel who was buying gas masks for his children. I believe that the war would destabilize all of the Middle East. It would spread hate and probably encourage more terrorism in the future instead of less. It will not be confined to just one small area.

There was a time when Canada did play a really respectable role in the world community. We were listened to. We were asked to be involved. We were invited to participate. Now we are invisible. In fact, when I watch the evening or morning news the positions are always recited, with Britain saying this today and Russia waffling on that, and France and Germany being here. The positions of those countries are stated clearly, but Canada is not mentioned. It is like we are invisible. Right now Prime Minister Blair is in the U.S. and is about to meet with President Bush. Meanwhile, our minister of defence goes to Washington and cannot find anyone to talk to.

I want to finish by saying there is no question that there is a very serious threat which must be dealt with. There is no question that UN resolution 1441, backed up by the threat of force, has convinced Saddam Hussein to open up and allow the process to start to work, but now we have to allow it to finish. Canada must stop being invisible. We owe it to our military and we owe it to all the people who will be involved in a terrible conflict if diplomacy fails.

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Midnight

Canadian Alliance

Jason Kenney Canadian Alliance Calgary Southeast, AB

Madam Chairman, I am not entirely clear about the member's position. To me it sounds very similar to the government's position, which is more time, not necessarily force. His leader said that Canada should not be involved in any military action if the United Nations Security Council does not approve of it.

When he says the system is working, I suppose by that he means that UN inspectors are actually operating in Iraq. Would he not agree with me that the system simply would not be working were it not for the credible threat of force posed principally by the United States and other allied democracies? If it is that credible threat of force which has compelled the Iraqi regime to come this far in terms of semi-cooperation, would he agree with me that Canada should, at least politically and perhaps militarily, contribute to that credible threat of force to ensure that, as he puts it, the system continues to work? Or does he believe that the Iraqi regime has just opened its doors to these inspectors out of the kindness of its heart and has suddenly changed a twelve year pattern of refusing to cooperate?

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Midnight

Progressive Conservative

Bill Casey Progressive Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Madam Chairman, the member was not listening, because I said several times that the only reason the system is working is the credible threat by the United States. I give it full marks for that.

However, the system is working now. We have received the first report, which was not a clean slate. It was not all negative but it was certainly not all positive. The system is working. Dr. Blix has come back with his first report and I think the system will continue to work under the threat of force. Again, it would not be working if the threat of force were not there, but it is working.

Rather than go to the next step and revert to a war that could kill thousands of people, why not let the system work a little longer? There is no reason not to let it work a little longer.

I think our position is very clear. Canada should not participate in a war without a second resolution at the United Nations. Hans Blix has to be allowed to go back to make his report to the United Nations, not to anybody else. Hans Blix has to decide whether there is a material breach. He has to outline what the deficiencies are. Then the United Nations should vote on it again, because resolution 1441 was meant to have a second vote. Serious consequences are not necessarily war.

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Midnight

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—St. Clair, ON

Madam Chairman, my question is for my colleague in the Progressive Conservative Party. We keep hearing from the United States that it has additional evidence from its intelligence sources. We do not see it. Would the member agree with me that the logical thing to allow the inspectors to do the best possible job, the most effective job, would be for the Americans, if they have that information, to share it and share it immediately?

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Midnight

Progressive Conservative

Bill Casey Progressive Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Yes, Madam Chairman, I do think the United States should produce the evidence it has. It should be provided to the weapons inspectors and probably should have been provided to the weapons inspectors a long time ago.

To me the most credible of all the parties involved in this debate are the weapons inspectors. I have a lot of faith that Dr. Blix and his team will tell us the real facts. There are so many stories, so many motives floating around, so many suggestions, and so much intelligence. At our foreign affairs committee meeting, I asked very specifically what evidence our Department of Foreign Affairs had of weapons of mass destruction. The answer was that there was a preponderance of evidence left over from the last war and so on and so forth, but there really was not any that I could see and touch. I came away not at all convinced that there was any evidence of weapons of mass destruction here.

Again, I am putting my faith in the weapons inspectors. I think they are well qualified. They have the mandate to do it. All they need now is a little time in which to do it.

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12:05 a.m.

NDP

Alexa McDonough NDP Halifax, NS

Madam Chairman, first I want to congratulate member for Cumberland—Colchester on his continuing efforts to bring some sanity and advance peace in the Middle East generally. I was very happy that he shared his story about the Israeli official, with whom he was speaking in the last couple of days, who acknowledged that he was in the process of buying gas masks for his children.

The question I want to raise with the member is this. He has been absolutely determined and dogged in his continuing efforts to keep dialogue open between Israeli and Palestinian politicians to try to get on with the peace building process in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I wonder whether, in his communications with those in Israel and Palestine, he experienced the same level of horror as the peace seeking mission, which I just recently led to the same area, did? I encountered overwhelming and almost universally, in talking with Israelis and Palestinians in that recent mission and in Egypt and Jordan as well, people who were so very opposed to any decision by the U.S. to attack Iraq. This is despite the fact that Israel, for example, is probably the strongest partner on earth with the U.S. in relation to its military aggression occurring in Palestine on a regular basis.

Second, I am concerned that he is so resigned to the notion that there will not be a vote in the House. I have been here for most of the last five hours and the only voice I have heard, from the Liberals benches, who has said he does not favour a vote has been that of the foreign affairs minister. I believe the other members on the Liberal benches who have spoken on the issue has indicated their support for a vote to take place on it. What is the basis of the member's resignation to the notion that there cannot and will not be a vote?

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12:05 a.m.

Progressive Conservative

Bill Casey Progressive Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Madam Chairman, actually it is a strange thing. The conversation I had with the man in Jerusalem was a couple of weeks ago, but this morning I talked to Amir Mamon, who I am sure some here know. He was the counsellor at the Israeli embassy in Ottawa for a long time. I called him this morning to find out the results of the election in Israel. Some of our members have been involved in hopefully bringing members of parliament from the Knesset and the Palestinian legislature here and I was hoping they had been re-elected. They all were.

At that time he told me how his two boys were adjusting to life in Israel with the fear, the pressure and the cloud that they live under every day from the threat of any possible violence or whatever. They love it there because it is home but they are having a hard time adjusting to it.

Anytime talk to anyone there, they are fearful of the impact of a war in Iraq and what could happen in the region. It is so easy for us to say that we have to get rid of Saddam Hussein, we will have a quick war and it will be over with. However it will not be a quick war. It will be a terrible war. It will be a big war. It will be a broad war. It will affect the whole region. It will affect all Muslim countries. It will create terrorists and hate and we have to do everything we can to avoid it.

On the vote, I am sorry I did not understand the question. However I kept track of the speakers and I thought everyone said that they supported a vote except the foreign affairs minister. We have to ask ourselves why there would not be a vote on an issue like this. I do not know the answer.

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12:10 a.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Parrish Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON

Madam Chairman, I am proud to speak on behalf of the vast majority of the residents of Mississauga Centre, to speak out against a call to war by the United States of America.

Canada is committed to partnerships such as NATO and the UN, partnerships that provide strength and security and some certainty in troubled times.

I am pleased that our Prime Minister, and our ministers of foreign affairs and defence, have reinforced Canada's commitment to no military action against Iraq that is not fully and unequivocally supported by a UN resolution.

Given the burning desire of President Bush to plunge into battle with Iraq, and only he knows the real reasons for his urgent desire, Canada must vehemently and continuously oppose this calamity. I cannot remember a time in the last 10 years when we have been faced with an issue more profound, urgent or more defining than this one. I also believe the issue has captured the deep concern of every Canadian, an often self-satisfied, complacent and friendly crowd.

This is a moment in time when Canadians must truly define themselves as a sovereign nation and must demonstrate themselves as a truly humane nation. We must not delude ourselves that Canada's refusal to participate will have much effect on President Bush's decision to go to war, a war he is champing at the bit to declare. However that refusal to participate without incontrovertible proof of imminent devastation stakes a moral ground for us. We are the world's de-miners, negotiators and peacekeepers, not the world's warmongers.

War is not some sort of colourful video game. Real people bleed, starve and die. There are devastating consequences to war, especially one in which a democratic country such as the United States is the aggressor. If Canada were to approve or to participate, we must be willing then to accept full responsibility for all the consequences with our heads held high. I, for one, cannot do this.

While considering a limited coalition with the Bush's and Blair's of this world, we must review the possible motives behind this attack and be prepared to defend those motives as just, reasonable and pressing. We must take responsibility for attacking a sovereign country, one of many whose leadership would not be of our choosing. Where would we stop while rearranging the pieces on a highly volatile Middle East chess board?

Is an insatiable need for oil a justification, or needed boost to a sluggish economy, or a required smokescreen for large corporate fraud and mismanagement a justification? Are we willing to participate in the creation of chaos in an already volatile region with a Pandora's Box of results which would be impossible to predict?

We cannot ignore the effect of a refusal to participate with a close neighbour and ally, a giant crouching just below are undefended border. We must be prepared for economic and other repercussions, willing to withstand inconvenience while we stand on our principles.

We also have to consider the long lasting humanitarian fallout of this war on the next generation of Iraqis. Physicians for Global Security tell us almost 50% of the population of Iraq is under 18 years of age. Are we prepared to go to war with children, children who have already suffered unimaginable abuse and deprivation at the hands of adults in whose care they have been entrusted?

Every bomb that drops will kill thousands of those children. Every shot that is fired will kill more of those children. Our real concern should be for those children who survive, the poor souls who will be orphaned, devastated and left to grow into deeper hatred of western democracy. They will be known as collateral damage, unavoidable flotsam and jetsam from the mighty tides of war. God only knows what they will harbour in their hearts as they watch their country overrun by their liberators.

What will happen to the refugees, a highly volatile tide of destitute persons forced from their homes? How do we justify drastically altering the course of millions of human lives?

We all acknowledge Iraq has an evil dictator who has tortured and killed his own people mercilessly, yet we have imposed brutal sanctions which have weakened the civilian population so they can never have the strength to rid themselves of the monster. Iraq has been repeatedly demolished. There is little infrastructure to support technology, education or hope of self-sufficiency. Yet we of the western world demand regime change.

Saddam Hussein is most dangerous to his own people and we consider a devastating attack on those people without full knowledge of any danger to ourselves, the only real justification for violence.

It is also certain that men and women in western armed forces will die, be injured or suffer devastating psychological damage from going to war. What is our responsibility to those men and women who willingly choose to defend our country? We must not send them to war without exhausting every possible alternative to the ultimate violence called war.

As a country we are committed to international law and to diplomatic solutions. We are peacemakers and peacekeepers. We must maintain our commitment to work within the United Nations mandate no matter what our neighbour demands. We must never jeopardize our reputation in the world, one established by Lester B. Pearson, one that makes us uniquely respected wherever I have travelled in the world. We are not at a point where we must sully that reputation, not quite yet.

The weapons inspectors have thus far not revealed weapons of sufficient magnitude to cause a serious threat to the security of the free world. The inspectors have asked for more time. We debate whether Iraq has complied fully with UN resolutions to allow inspectors to search every nook and cranny of its country. The answers are inconclusive and the inspectors have asked for more time.

Saddam Hussein has been a dormant threat for more than 12 years. What is the urgency? Why can the UN inspectors not be given more time? This war has been portrayed as another battle in the war on terrorism. It is irresponsible and grossly manipulative to use terrorism as justification for an unrelated enemy in an unrelated war. There has been no clear, strong evidence connecting Iraq and al-Qaeda. Where is the real culprit, Osama bin Laden, former operative of the CIA? There was no mention of him in the speech last night.

In fact no definitive evidence has yet been forwarded connecting the government of Iraq to terrorist organizations technically capable of a real attack on the United States of America. Iraq is a country with no navy and no air force, a country whose people have been devastated repeatedly by years of suppression and war. How can it pose a serious threat to the most powerful military complex in the world?

Some would lead us to war on the premise that if we do not attack first, a phenomenon unheard of, Saddam Hussein may wreak havoc on the world of a magnitude not experienced since World War II. This is a test of credulity and an insult to our collective intelligence. It is also an insult to the 13 million soldiers and 25 million civilians who died in that war to set the stage for the U.S. to become a superpower.

By invading Iraq we declare that we do not value life, autonomy or the dignity of the Iraqi people. We risk creating enemies who will be driven even more passionately to harm America and its allies. Such terrorist attacks are becoming the real threat of the 21st century and it is a threat against which we cannot protect ourselves.

Terrorism is the by-product of deprivation and a mindset born and bred in discontent. It comes from starvation, devastation and the inability to dream of a better life.

Finally, I want to make it clear that opposition to a U.S.-British war on Iraq is not anti-American. It is an assertion of sovereignty. To dismiss Canadians who are opposed to this war as anti-American only serves to limit debate. A decision to take our country to war must be made without consideration of trade or proximity. It is above all a moral issue, not an economic one. It is one of ethics and world security, not of economics, politics and the thirst for oil. No consideration other than clear and incontrovertible evidence of imminent danger justifies taking our very tolerant, democratic and beautiful country to war.

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12:15 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Jason Kenney Canadian Alliance Calgary Southeast, AB

Madam Chairman, I would like to ask the member if she feels that there is no evidence of Iraqi possession of weapons of mass destruction, that there is no cause for potential conflict to enforce such resolutions? Why does she think it is that the United Nations Security Council has passed resolution 1441 and passed 15 other resolutions prior to it requiring proof of disarmament? Why does she think that Chief Inspector Blix yesterday reported that the Iraqi government still does not seem to be understanding its obligations to comply?

She seems to believe that there is no threat, imminent or remote; no real proof; that this is all the designs of some grand American corporate conspiracy with a little bit of world money here and American imperialism there; all the hoary old conspiracy theories of the paranoid left.

Could she then explain what it is that provoked Syria to vote in favour of resolution 1441 if it believed that there was no possession of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq? Why did the United Nations seize itself of this matter last November if there was no problem, if there was no threat, and if there were no weapons?

Perhaps she can explain to us, since she seems to be omniscient about this, what happened to the 6,500 chemical bombs that were in the Iraqi arsenal 10 years ago but have suddenly disappeared? What happened to the VX gas that has suddenly disappeared and was not recorded in the submission Iraq made to the weapons inspectors? What happened to the other biologicals that were part of the Iraqi declarations a decade ago which have apparently disappeared and of which there is no evidence of their destruction, and scientists cannot verify their whereabouts?

Could she explain to us what she means when she says there is no imminent threat? What does she define as imminent? Is the problem not with rogue nations? Does she not understand the problem is that imminent is too late. By the time a scud missile with biologicals lands on Tel Aviv it is too late for tens of thousands of people. By the time a vial of VX gas is given to a member of an al-Qaeda network and ends up in a western city subway system it is too late. Does she not understand that to destroy the weapons is to prevent the imminent threat? Does she not understand that because apparently the UN Security Council does?

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12:20 a.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Parrish Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON

Madam Chairman, the only thing that is imminent is my loss of patience due to the hour and my senior years. I am unaccustomed to being treated like this by someone half my age, but out of respect for the House I will answer the question.

I never said there was no danger. I never said there was not good reason to go in there. In fact, I agree with the hon. member's position that the threat of violence has battened Saddam Hussein right down, which has been a good thing. No one has said that he is not dangerous. He is more dangerous to his own people than he is to the mighty United States of America. In my opinion it would take flocks of carrier pigeons to lift one of those missiles and get it on target, because he does not have the capability.

We have a trusted UN force there which says it is not finished looking, not finished checking, and not finished making sure that there is not enough imminent danger. I am absolutely in agreement with what the inspectors are doing. I am absolutely in agreement with Mr. Bush leaping on television whenever he feels like it and making wild threatening gestures, although it is really scaring me. However I do not think it is time for this country to send our own forces over there to be killed.

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12:20 a.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—St. Clair, ON

Madam Chairman, given the significance my colleague across the way places on the role Canada should be playing, can she agree with me that this is of such paramount importance, as a political policy issue for this country, that there should be a vote in the House before a decision is made as to whether or not we will declare war on Iraq?

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12:20 a.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Parrish Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON

Madam Chairman, not that we are supposed to talk about what goes on in caucus, but I did ask the Prime Minister this morning that if we were having a take note debate, and I understand his jurisdiction is in fact over calling war or not calling war, could we not have a take note vote to follow up the take note debate?

I am sure that if we get to that point there are many in our caucus who feel that way, but I would like to be on record as being much in favour of a take note vote and would feel that our government and our Prime Minister should trust 301 members in the House to be able to stand in their place on behalf of their constituents and be seen to be voting for or against something this serious.

Kyoto is an international treaty and according to the British parliamentary system we did not have to have a vote on that, but we did. This is no less important to my constituents than the Kyoto accord so I am 100%, unequivocally, for a vote.

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12:25 a.m.

NDP

Alexa McDonough NDP Halifax, NS

Madam Chairman, I would like to congratulate the member on her excellent speech tonight and take the opportunity at the same time to congratulate her on having shown the courage of her conviction in speaking out when few others were prepared to do so about the absolute necessity of there being a vote in the House of Commons.

The member has spoken passionately and knowledgeably about the impact of the brutal sanctions which have crippled the Iraqi people and resulted in the deaths of literally hundreds of thousands of children, estimated to be 500,000 children.

The member will know that the foreign affairs committee, I believe unanimously, voted to call for the end of those economic sanctions. That committee of course was chaired by the now foreign affairs minister. The member sits on the Liberal side of the House, although I do wonder from time to time why because certainly her colleagues do not seem to have the same courage of conviction that she has shown on so many occasions, although tonight I must say more and more have. I want to be fair here.

Could the member help those of us who are struggling to understand how the foreign affairs committee could have voted to end sanctions at an earlier date, but has fallen silent, and I guess under the situation now having the foreign affairs minister who previously chaired the foreign affairs committee, becoming more and more under the spell of George Bush? How is it that this foreign affairs minister is no longer prepared to stand up for an end to the brutal economic sanctions that are crippling the Iraqi people?

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12:25 a.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Parrish Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON

Madam Chairman, first I would like to stand firmly in my place again and suggest that I am a true blue Liberal. That means I am slightly to the right economically and very much to the left in social policy. I am very comfortable on this side of the House unless and until a war is declared without UN sanctions, and then I may be sitting in one of those independent seats over there.

As far as the Minister of Foreign Affairs is concerned, he is in my opinion someone I respect most deeply. He is a wonderful person and he sincerely put that recommendation forward to that committee and allowed its members the freedom to vote unanimously to make that recommendation.

Something very strange happens when one enters cabinet. Some people say “they suck the brain out of your left ear”, but I do not believe that. What happens is we have to work as part of a different team and are under different restrictions. However, there is nobody in the House I would rather have in that position than the member for Toronto Centre—Rosedale because he is an incredibly fine man. He understands the situation very well and he is going to work toward doing the right thing.

I would also like to thank the Canadian Alliance because it has put forward one of my favourite pet peeves which is empowering committees. The little insurrection before Christmas, which I assisted on, where we made committee chairs elected by the group on secret ballot, was just a step in the direction of trying to empower these committees. They are not just there to debate and then go off and make resolutions that everybody ignores. More and more, we must empower those committees to actually make a recommendation that will be listened to. I thank the member for her compliments.

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12:25 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Rahim Jaffer Canadian Alliance Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Madam Chairman, it gives me I guess mixed reactions to rise to speak to this very important topic. As a Muslin, my heart goes out to a lot of the Middle Eastern countries where there is constant turmoil and hardship faced by many of the residents. Obviously sharing a similar religion and knowing the importance of what Islam teaches when it comes to peace, tolerance and goodwill, and not seeing that, especially on the part of radical dictators is always something that brings a lot of sadness to myself and, I know, my community and many other Muslims around the world.

However, at the same time, my family fled a radical regime dictator, Idi Amin from Uganda, and were lucky to come to Canada. I know and my family knows the value of countries like Canada, the U.S., the U.K. and others that stand up against radical dictators around the world, people who do not respect human rights and who do not value democracy. Obviously we have been fortunate enough to come to a country that values those things.

Today we are debating on whether or not we should continue in that vein and try to help people around the world who are facing similar hardships that my family one time faced before we were able to come to Canada.

Resolution 1441, passed by the UN Security Council last November, called upon Saddam Hussein and the government of Iraq to commit to disarmament and to cooperate with the United Nations weapons inspectors. Unfortunately this did not happen.

I will attempt to outline several areas where Saddam Hussein has refused to abide by the terms of resolution 1441 and what Canada needs to do as a nation to secure peace in the Middle East. It will not be easy.

Saddam has had a history of non-compliance. Prior to the 1991 gulf war Saddam Hussein ordered the use of chemical agents against Iran during the 10 year conflict and against the Kurdish people in the north. Over 1.5 million people died during the Iran-Iraq conflict.

The invasion of Kuwait in 1990 was illegal under international law. Atrocities and crimes committed by Iraq during its occupation have been well documented: murder, rape, torture, pillaging of Kuwaiti households and national treasures, and the destruction of Kuwaiti oil wells that led to massive environmental catastrophes.

During the gulf war Saddam's scuds attacked Israel, a non-combatant, showing his willingness to attack states without any provocation.

Following the gulf war, as part of the ceasefire signed by Iraq and subsequent UN resolutions, Iraq agreed to disarm and to allow UN weapons inspectors to destroy some of these chemical weapons. However, in 1998, as we know, many of these weapons inspectors left because of Iraqi non-compliance with these UN resolutions.

There have been efforts to try to help the people of Iraq. The oil for food program established to allow the Iraqi citizens to avoid the brunt of Saddam's actions has been circumvented by the Iraqi regime.

Now, we move on to the non-compliance of resolution 1441. Recently, Chief Inspector Blix reported to the UN Security Council on January 27 breaches by Iraq, thereby failing to fulfill its obligations under resolution 1441.

Iraq was obligated to declare all of the chemical weapons and devices, but in fact it has not. The 12,000 plus page report had glaring omissions, especially with regard to nerve gas, anthrax and chemical bombs in warheads.

Iraq was supposed to grant unfettered access to all weapon sites. Access has been granted to sites, but no effort has been made on Iraq's part to make the inspections easier at those sites. Complying with the letter of the law, but not the spirit has really been the mandate that the Iraqi regime has been following.

Iraq was supposed to grant full air space access to UN reconnaissance planes. Iraq refuses not to target UN aircraft with missiles. We have had some problems with the inspectors going in there and being able to see whether or not there are sites that still exist, however the Iraqis try to hide that fact as well.

What has Canada's response been to this non-compliance and where should we be going? Have we been going in the right direction?

Canada has, and rightly so, acted with the United Nations when it comes to these issues of dealing with Iraqi non-compliance. We still continue to encourage the government and encourage other partners to work through the process of the UN.

Canada supported the UN multilateral action in the 1990-91 action to prevent Saddam from holding on to Kuwait. Canada has supported every UN resolution adopted in the past decade, from sanctions, to establishing the oil for food program, to resolution 1441.

Canada also supported Operation Desert Fox in 1998 when Saddam refused to co-operate with weapons inspectors.

As was mentioned by others, even here in the Canadian Alliance we have questioned the effectiveness of sanctions. When the all party committee actually agreed and there was unanimous consent to ease the sanctions I believe in 2000 to try to help those people, we were on side with that. We have always questioned the effect of the sanctions on people on the ground.

The Canadian Alliance has been at the forefront of pushing the Canadian government to discuss the issue of Iraqi non-compliance here in the House and as well in many of the discourses the government makes on foreign affairs and foreign policy.

Where do we go from here? In the recommendations we have been making, I know that many of my colleagues, including the Leader of the Opposition and our foreign affairs critic, have made it very clear, unlike some other parties in the House, as to what we should be doing in the next few weeks especially as we are waiting to see what is going to happen. There are a few key things that we can continue to encourage the government to do and encourage the UN especially to go through its process.

The first recommendation obviously is Canada should continue to support the history of the United Nations process. I think we all would like to see the system work through the UN and hopefully be able to respect that process over the next little while.

Canada should begin, as my colleagues have said, some preparations nonetheless because there could be a breakdown in that process. We need to be able to prepare, namely working with our allies, the U.K., U.S.A. and Australia, for the possibility of war. As many have made it clear, we would like to see that as the very last option because no one wins in a situation of war.

That does not mean we should not prepare, that we should work with our allies and prepare for the worst in the event that there is a breakdown. This includes sending military planners to U.S. central command and to take part in certain plans. That is a reality and we should be prepared for that.

This is where even I have some concerns. Over the next little while I will be waiting with anticipation to see the process work itself through. We know that Mr. Powell will be making a report to the UN very shortly. After that there will be a report that Hans Blix will be finishing up, hopefully later on in February.

I would like to see those two things happen before we actually commit to any real military action. Only a few weeks are left. That is something that I think we can allow.

However, military action is justified, especially if Iraq does have any aggressive or threatening moves against any of its neighbours in the next little while that would threaten the stability in that area, as it did in the past against Iran or Kuwait. Also, as we go through the process, military action may be determined by the UN to be something that should be taken especially because of the violations of resolution 1441.

Obviously when I think about the choice of war, as I said at the outset, it is something most Canadians are against. I am concerned that war will only increase the imminent threat, not deter it.

That is something that I think is coming, especially when I hear from a number of the Muslims here in Canada and the gap that is really unfortunately increasing among our western nations and Islamic countries. That is something that I am really concerned about. Unfortunately, I fear that even though we are acting in the best interests of the Iraqi people to try to remove a radical dictator, many radicals may take that as a sign to further inflict their terrorist acts or bastardize Islam in a way that unfortunately does not do any Islamic groups any good.

That is a fear that I have but that still does not mean we should not be vigilant to do what we can to help promote human rights and promote democracy around the world.

Quite frankly, someone like Saddam Hussein has been in place far too long and is hurting his own people. As I said, from my own family's history that is something that should not be accepted. We have a responsibility to join with our allies to do what we can to prevent that.

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12:35 a.m.

NDP

Alexa McDonough NDP Halifax, NS

Madam Chairman, I have a comment to make arising out of the previous speaker's description of the events leading up to the 1998 evacuation of the weapons inspectors.

The member outright indicated that despite the fact that from 1992 to 1998 considerable progress had been made by the weapons inspectors in terms of dismantling and destroying weapons of mass destruction, that the weapons inspectors ended up leaving Iraq because of non-cooperation and non-compliance by the Iraqi government with the weapons inspection process. It is a matter of record that the weapons inspection process was ongoing. Yes, it ran into frustrations and yes, it ran into roadblocks, but nevertheless it was progressing.

As I mentioned earlier tonight, it is clearly established that far more destruction and dismantling of weapons of mass destruction took place as a result of the weapons inspection process from 1992 to 1998 than took place during the entire gulf war. The reason for the evacuation of the weapons inspectors in 1998 was that the U.S. had actually been spying on Iraq, compromising the weapons inspection process. The U.S. then indicated its intentions to bomb Iraq. Understandably the weapons inspectors evacuated.

Is the member not aware of that fact? Does it not require some correction of the account of the events that took place leading up to the evacuation of the weapons inspectors?