House of Commons Hansard #91 of the 37th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was airports.

Topics

International Transfer of Offenders ActGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Ken Epp Canadian Alliance Elk Island, AB

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order to invoke Standing Order 29(3).

International Transfer of Offenders ActGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

There is a quorum call and obviously we do not have a quorum. The bells shall not ring for more than 15 minutes.

And the bells having rung:

International Transfer of Offenders ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

We now have quorum.

Beginning with the next speaker, speeches will last for 20 minutes and will be followed by a 10 minute period for questions and comments.

International Transfer of Offenders ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

NDP

Lorne Nystrom NDP Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to say a few words on Bill C-33, the international transfer of offenders act, before the House today at second reading stage. I support the bill in principle at second reading, but we will have questions at committee stage.

As I was saying, I agree with the principle of the bill, but questions about this will be raised in committee.

Bill C-33 would allow Canada to implement treaties and administrative arrangements with other countries around the world for the international transfer of offenders. The purpose of the bill is to allow Canadians who are convicted abroad to serve their sentences in this country. If there is a conviction for some offence abroad and it makes more sense to serve the sentence in this country, it certainly makes that possible.

By allowing the offenders to serve their sentences in Canada the public's interest is also served because offenders are generally released into the community in accordance with the overall Canadian rehabilitation strategy, rather than simply having the offenders arrive in this country at the end of their sentences without any checks in terms of their reintegration.

If someone is in this country, incarcerated and then released, they are released in terms of the release strategy in Canada rather than just arriving at an airport or a bus depot from another country and walking onto the street. In principle it makes sense to support the bill before the House today.

The bill would permit Canadian offenders facing incarceration in foreign prisons in unfamiliar and difficult situations to serve their sentences in Canada. This function is crucial where the foreign states do not accommodate Canadian standards of rights and rehabilitation. There are many countries in the world that do not have the same kinds of rights that we have in this country, or the same kind of program of rehabilitation. That is one of the factors in the bill.

Foreign states with which Canada does have a transfer agreement may likewise take advantage of the bill to have their nationals that are incarcerated in Canada transferred back to their home country. It is very much a reciprocal agreement where offenders from a foreign country are arrested, convicted and incarcerated in Canada and transferred back to that foreign country. It is a reciprocal arrangement that makes sense.

The provisions of the bill would apply to criminal offenders, including young offenders and mentally incompetent offenders. Consent to be transferred must be given by the offender, by the foreign state, and Canada. There is a three way agreement here that the offender must consent to be transferred. Canada must consent to the transfer and the foreign state also must consent to the transfer before it happens.

The bill and the consent is governed by the Solicitor General of Canada. The Solicitor General was the person who kicked off the debate in the House here today.

Some of the positive things about the bill deal with the integrity and values of the Canadian justice and correctional system. It is our values and it is our integrity that is on the line in terms of the transferring of offenders back to Canada. Those values would prevail because the offender is coming back into our own country.

Foreign nations often have different standards in their prison systems that may be considered a violation of rights here in Canada, or that do nothing to rehabilitate the offender. The bill would give Canada custody of Canadian offenders abroad and make Canada responsible for the enforcement of our own values. Again, it is in accordance with Canadian standards, customs, laws, and values in terms of a prisoner being transferred from country X to Canada.

In terms of the bill before the House today, I would like to make a few proposals. First of all, I wish to comment on its applicability to young offenders. The provisions of the bill should include the transfer of young offenders who are on probation and the transfer of mentally challenged offenders.

Canada must ensure that young offenders receive a chance to salvage their futures and that those who are mentally unfit be cared for properly. This is best done with the Canadian rehabilitation program targeted at specific categories of offenders, which may not even be available in other countries.

I know the whole issue of young offenders and the Young Offenders Act is a controversial one. Canada has a program of rehabilitation and a program of integration back into our country. Hopefully, all young offenders could be rehabilitated back into society and pick up a skill, trade, or a profession and make a contribution to our country. That is often not the case in other countries. This is another positive possibility that would come out of the bill that is before the House today.

Another thing deals with disclosure of information. The international transfer of offenders act provisions would require the proper authorities to inform offenders of any international transfer treaty between Canada and a foreign state. Offenders would have the right to serve their sentences in their country's jurisdiction. The requirement is needed to ensure that Canadians receive full knowledge of their rights. Offenders who are in custody would have the right to know that there is an international treaty between our country and another country and that they have the right to make an application to serve the remaining of their sentence in Canada if they wish. Of course, the flip side of the coin is if they do not wish to come back that is their right to do so as well.

The other issue pertains to consent of transfer. This requirement would allow foreign offenders in Canada to withdraw their consent to transfer at any time before the physical transfer takes place, not just immediately, but it would allow offenders to change their mind part way through the process.

Foreign offenders who face hardships and prejudice or persecution as a result of returning home to serve their sentence ought to be allowed to refuse a transfer. If prisoners in a foreign country do not want to be transferred back to Canada, then foreign nationals who are convicted and incarcerated in this country would have the same right to refuse a transfer back to their country where their citizenship is held and their nationality is held.

Justice Canada does not accept the rights violations or unduly harsh prison sentences for its own citizens in foreign nations and we must grant foreign nationals the right to refuse transfer back home where such dangers do exist particularly where there is a radical difference in the sentence for the same crime. If the punishment is radically different in a certain country than Canada then of course prisoners should have the right to refuse or have the right not to go back to serve their sentence in their own country.

I recommend that the House support the bill. I believe there is a humanitarian spirit to the bill as tabled today that should be applauded. These proposals permit Canadian offenders abroad to be transported back to Canada where they can be detained and rehabilitated in accordance with the standards and principles of Canadian justice. I think that is a right that Canadian citizens should be able to exercise. The checks and balances are in place if the Government of Canada agrees through the Solicitor General and the country where they are now held also agrees under the details of this particular treaty.

Since the bill is based on treaty negotiations its benefits are mutual. The treaty negotiations and administrative arrangements contemplated by the bill would give equal protection and advantage to Canada and the foreign state alike. This reciprocity has the added benefit of enhancing certainty and good faith in international relations and negotiations. The reciprocity in the bill before us today would create a situation of equality between our country and other countries that are signatories to the particular treaty.

Bill C-33 has some grey areas that require some clarification or improvements, but ultimately this proposal should receive the support as it is an important instrument for the protection of human rights in Canada and Canadian standards of punishment in jurisdictions beyond our control.

I do have questions in some areas of the bill or what may be referred to as grey areas and they include two or three different issues that I want to put on the record today. The general purpose of the international transfer of offenders act is humanitarian, but its language considers much less than its purpose would suggest. For instance, the factors which the minister shall consider in accepting Canadian offenders focus on the relationships between the offender and Canada, such as whether the offender has a social or family tie to the country, but does not consider the threat the foreign state or its prison system may present to the Canadian offender.

I would be much more concerned for example, about the offender receiving a caning in Singapore than I would be about how many family members he or she may have in this country. The caning in Singapore is the kind of punishment we do not have in our country.

I remember a few years ago there was a member of the reform party who was endorsing the idea of caning but I think it was certainly a small--

International Transfer of Offenders ActGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

An hon. member

Oh, oh.

International Transfer of Offenders ActGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Lorne Nystrom NDP Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

I was not in the House at the time, it was just what I read in the press. I do not always believe everything I read in the press, but certainly there were reports to that effect.

The bill should include the potential threat to an offender's well-being as a result of serving his or her sentence in a foreign state as a proper consideration for the minister to make.

Looking at the bill, which I only received a little while ago, clause 10(2)(a) allows the minister to refuse transfer of a foreign offender where in the minister's opinion the offender will commit a terrorist act or join organized crime. In other words, the minister is required to predict the future criminal activity of a foreign offender. This is a very difficult and maybe impossible standard to be held against or to act upon.

As is, the provision is quite broad in scope. It has the potential to be abused, especially where the foreign offender is the subject of political controversy or dissidence unless clearer criteria are established for the minister. According to the wording of Bill C-33, it would not be difficult to conceive of a situation where a foreign offender may be denied transfer because of some undefined notion of terrorism or organized crime where it would serve the interests of others than the public's.

These are areas that are very difficult to codify and put into law but the bill should be clear on this issue if possible. Either establish what criteria is to be met before the minister may deem the offender likely to commit terrorism or participate in organized crime, or insert a clause requiring the offender to be previously convicted or charged of terrorism offences or organized crime offences before the minister may proceed on such an assumption. I think those are two possible ways of doing this.

Bill C-33 should be supported for its humanitarian purpose, but we should not assume that the transfer of prisoners back to Canada necessarily results in more humane treatment. We should not allow the government to pat itself on the back too long because we still have problems in our own prison system. One only needs to think of the lack of correctional services facilities for women or for aboriginal people in our country to realize there is a great need for development of our own corrections system. Let us not lose sight of the forest for the trees; there is still more progress to be made. Bill C-33 is just a step in the right direction.

Those are a few of my thoughts on the bill. We support the bill in principle. We think it is going in the right direction. We think it is fair and balanced. It is not a wholesale transfer of prisoners from one jurisdiction to the other. It is not the prisoner making the decision by herself or himself whether or not there should be a transfer. The transfer only happens if Canada agrees to it through the office of the Solicitor General, if the foreign country agrees to it through its appropriate government spokespeople and if the prisoner himself or herself agrees.

I believe this is a step in the right direction. I look forward to seeing the bill in committee and talking about it in more detail.

International Transfer of Offenders ActGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Ken Epp Canadian Alliance Elk Island, AB

Madam Speaker, the hon. member made reference to the fact that one of my colleagues a number of years ago did some investigation about a different method of punishment. To jump from that to say that he advocated it is a leap. I know some of the people in the media did it and now the member has done it.

Personally I would never try to misrepresent what the member is saying. Let him say what he says. I would present it in as fair a way as possible. Let the voters of the country make their choice on facts, but for him to imply that one of my colleagues having simply looked at it advocates it is a leap and is not accurate. I simply wanted to set the record straight.

For example, I have studied statistics on the effects of smoking. I do not in any way advocate smoking. I have never in my life had a person who smoked for more than five years tell me that it would be a good idea for me to start, yet I have studied it on a statistical basis. I have done some reading on it to see what the outcomes are.

One simply cannot make those leaps and impute to members in the House things that they are purported to support simply because they have looked at it. It is a false logic and I correct the member on it. He may want to respond, but I do not want to hear any more of this unjustified accusation which is inaccurate.

International Transfer of Offenders ActGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

Before I proceed to allow the member to answer, I would like to remind hon. members that cell phones are not permitted in the House, the ringing of them or taking calls while we are in the House.

International Transfer of Offenders ActGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Lorne Nystrom NDP Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

Madam Speaker, I would have to check the blues but I think I said that it is my understanding that a member of the reform party at one time advocated caning. Then the member objected from his seat and I said I was not a member of the House at the time and I was just going from a recollection of newspaper stories at the time. If that is not the case, then that is not the case, but I was not in the House. Certainly caning is not an appropriate kind of punishment in our country. I do not think we would find many Canadians who would advocate caning.

However one thing that is coming up in this debate is what is considered to be an appropriate punishment. That punishment is not appropriate by Canadian standards. We want to rehabilitate Canadian people by Canadian standards, Canadian values, Canadian punishment and the precedents we have in this country. That is one reason a prisoner may want to be transferred back to Canadian jurisdiction to serve out the remainder of his or her sentence.

International Transfer of Offenders ActGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Loyola Hearn Progressive Conservative St. John's West, NL

Madam Speaker, it is my pleasure to say a few words on the bill but unfortunately for all of us in the House we only got the bill recently. It has been 24 hours between first reading and second reading. It is a bill that has a tremendous amount of potential to interfere with the lives of a lot of people, whether they be Canadians abroad or foreigners here. I think we need a little more time to discuss this and look at the implications in detail. I would suggest that we should slow down on how fast we move certain pieces of legislation through the House.

It should be the goal of Parliament and those who sit in the House to fully inform the public of these debates. It is incumbent upon the government of the day to recognize that in this instance it will not occur because of the fast timeframe.

For example, clause 24 outlines the eligibility for parole for an offender who has been convicted of committing a murder. This seemingly simple definition carries with it a whole host of implications. The clause states that if the offender was sentenced to imprisonment for life for an offence that, if ithad been committed in Canada, would haveconstituted murder within the meaning of theCriminal Code, their full parole ineligibilityperiod is 10 years.

This would be regardless of the penalty prescribed by the jurisdiction in which the offence was committed. This would mean that if murder carried a life sentence in the foreign state, and if the definition of life imprisonment was actually life, it would have no bearing on the sentence the person ended up serving when returned to Canada.

The Canadian prisoner returned to this country would only be required to serve 10 years before becoming eligible for parole. There are those liberal minded people in society who feel this would be acceptable but whether it is or not is not the crux of the debate. The point I am trying to make is that different states carry different durations of punishment based essentially on societal acceptance of the rules.

The stated norm of an area of Afghanistan may not be the accepted norm in Canada. Cultural differences lead to acceptable and unacceptable behaviour and we need to be cognizant of that fact. We need only to look at the media for examples. One case which comes to mind is a woman who literally was stoned within an inch of her life for committing adultery.

Clause 24 goes on to note that if, in the minister’sopinion, the documents supplied by the foreignentity show that the circumstances inwhich the offence was committed were suchthat, if it had been committed in Canada afterJuly 26, 1976, it would have been first degreemurder within the meaning of section 231, the full parole ineligibility period is15 years.

As the courts have decided in previous cases, it would seem the rights and freedoms afforded all Canadian citizens in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms are transferable when it comes to the right of life.

On February 15, 2001 the Supreme Court of Canada ruled in a nine to nothing decision that Glen Sebastian Burns and Atif Rafay could be extradited to the United States of America but only after Canada had been assured the men would not face execution.

In reality Canadians do not carry their charter of rights with them when they commit an offence in another country. When Canadians commit crimes in the United States of America, they are subject to the penalties of that state. State authorities will not be receptive to hearing the dictates of Canada regarding a murder that occurred on United States soil.

By setting up different types of reciprocal agreements with states, territories or entities, we could possibly be setting ourselves up to become a safe haven for criminals fleeing from justice. That was the problem then and it remains a problem now.

What do we do when the person commits murder in the foreign state where conviction results in death and he or she then decides to flee to Canada where if the person is caught, he or she will only have to serve a minimum of 10 years before seeking parole?

On the surface, setting legislation that would allow for a quick transfer of Canadian criminals abroad to serve their time in our institutions does not seem to be without its merit. However, the way in which the legislation was introduced and then thrown to the floor for debate without adequate preparation time makes me wonder what the government is trying to hide. Some would say it is paranoia, while others might argue perception.

Continuing in the vein of not having had adequate time to fully examine the legislation, I draw the attention of the House to clause 33, which defines what a foreign entity is. The clause reads:

In sections 31 and 32, “foreign entity” means a foreign state, a province, state or political subdivision of a foreign state, a colony, dependency, possession, protectorate, condominium, trust territory or any territory falling under the jurisdiction of a foreign state or a territory or other entity, including an international criminal tribunal.

What this section does is attempt to define any and all entities with which Canadian officials may or may not be interacting in terms of seeking the transfer. I am perplexed at the inclusion of some of the terminology used in this definition, namely, condominium; however, that is the least of my worries.

This section defines the definition of acceptable authorities with which the Minister of Foreign Affairs can deal in terms of seeking a transfer. However, it is clauses 31 and 32 that compel the minister to act. Clauses 31 and 32 essentially provide the minister with the ability to supersede the recognized authority of a sovereign state should he or she find a willing accomplice at a local or what we may term a municipal level should that country not have an official agreement with ours.

At cursory examination, it seems this legislation would give the minister an unprecedented, unbalanced amount of power.

I cannot stress enough the importance that the nature of the offence carries in terms of what is acceptable or unacceptable. In order to fully comprehend what needs to be done, we would need to accept the societal norms or, at the very least, a sense of shared values in terms of sentencing duration. Justice in one country does not equal the same measure of justice in another country. This I do not believe to be transferable. But while differences of opinions will ultimately vary, there are those who will be pleased that Canadians serving sentences abroad will now have the opportunity to serve their sentences within the confines of our own system and have all of the rights afforded Canadians.

With this bill the government is attempting to introduce legislation that would allow Canadians convicted in jurisdictions such as Hong Kong to return to Canada to serve their foreign sentences. In fact, the media release states, “Foreign nationals from such jurisdictions convicted in Canada would be able to serve their sentences in their home countries”.

While we can support this legislation in principle, we need to be cognizant of the fact that, regardless of what the government passes, this type of legislation only works if we have reciprocal agreements.

Having said that, again, I really feel this legislation needs much closer scrutiny than we have been able to give it in the short timeframe provided to us. Perhaps as it moves through the system and through committee, we may be able to make sure that the legislation is of benefit to Canadians in particular but to others who would be treated fairly in countries where perhaps at the present time they would not receive fair treatment for any crimes committed.

International Transfer of Offenders ActGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Raymonde Folco Liberal Laval West, QC

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to participate in the introduction of the government's initiative to update the Transfer of Offenders Act.

As legislators, we receive requests based on public opinion and suggestions made by non-governmental organizations. The Youth Criminal Justice Act, which came into force on April 1, 2003, is an example of how an aging law is replaced, in this case, the Young Offenders Act, which was enacted in 1985.

We went beyond revision in that case and, after broad and thorough consultation and the good work of the parliamentary Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, replaced the existing statute with a more up to date version of the legislation that reflects the current political and public will.

More recently, we have voted to send Bill C-23 to the parliamentary committee, from which it will emerge to better protect the young and most vulnerable Canadians from sexual predators by establishing a nationwide registry of those convicted of sexual offences.

Bill C-33 is before us now and it is also an important piece of necessary legislation that we can take pride in considering and helping to fashion into a final product that will become the law of the land. As the name implies, the force of this legislation will be felt far beyond Canadian borders. It provides the international community with another example of Canada's progressive criminal justice system, which combines the best aspects of correctional practice. Bill C-33 and the act it will replace do so by balancing the need for fair and humane treatment of offenders with the need to respect the systems and philosophies of other countries.

The proposed bill retains most of the objectives and principles of the Transfer of Offenders Act, which was enacted in 1978.

The new international Transfer of Offenders Act will continue to provide for the implementation of treaties with other countries for the international transfer of offenders. The purpose of the act and the treaties signed between Canada and foreign states is essentially humanitarian. They allow Canadians convicted and detained abroad in difficult conditions to serve their sentences at home and foreign nationals to return to their home countries.

In the case of returning Canadians, the treaties promote public protection, as offenders are allowed to serve their sentences in Canada and to be gradually released into the community. Otherwise they would simply be deported from the country where they were convicted of an offence, however serious, at the end of their sentences and would arrive in Canada with no controls on them.

At the same time, in all cases, the treaties respect the sentences imposed abroad. Countries that return offenders to Canada can be assured that the sentences handed down by their courts will be enforced by the Canadian system.

However, this is not an exercise in clemency as some of my hon. colleagues opposite seem to believe. Anyone who knows Canadian penitentiaries knows that they are not places where one would wish to spend a great deal of time, even as an observer or visitor.

Some foreign administrations provide prison conditions tougher than ours, but it would not be appropriate to list them here. Nevertheless, offenders who are returned to serve sentences in Canadian prisons are not coddled. Other countries are aware of that and accept the transfer conditions before returning the offender.

The Transfer of Offenders Act as it stands continues to serve useful purposes. We are here today to bring it into the present century. The world has changed and the style and content of international treaties must change to keep up. There are obvious changes brought about by the birth of new nations and the rebirth of others. There are also nations that have become independent of former allegiances, thereby growing more attuned to democracy and a concern for human rights. These countries have a need to express these transformations internationally.

There is no better way to bridge these cultural gaps than getting together to negotiate constructive treaties. We find out where the differences are, discuss them, and arrive at compromises. That is the essence of international cooperation. At the same time, we learn from each other and establish new bonds of international partnership.

In this respect, I would like to mention that the very first country with which Canada negotiated an offender transfer treaty was, of course, our friend and ally to the south, the United States of America. That 25-year-old treaty is only one example of the convergence of our American neighbours' programs and policies with ours.

Since the act's proclamation in 1978, only technical amendments have been made to it, although more substantive issues have been identified. These issues have been brought forward with a broad range of interested parties since the consultation document was released in 1997. The wide-ranging consultations identified what amendments would be advisable and necessary. This exercise has been followed by an exhaustive drafting exercise, during which expert officials have identified what changes are possible given Canadian and international law.

As the Solicitor General indicated, the central clauses of the amended act will set out the principles and objectives of the act. This may seem obvious in the context of drafting legislation, but a cursory perusal of existing legislation quickly reveals that it is not so.

There is an excellent example of statement of principles and objectives in the Corrections and Conditional Release Act enacted by Parliament in 1992. These clauses proved to be very useful to corrections professionals. Having force of law, they are not easily amended and, therefore, provide consistency in sentencing.

In these times of mission statements and organizational commitments, the importance of clear and consistent direction for those who must stick to the intent of established legislation to exercise the will of Parliament is easy to understand.

An equally modern aspect of these legislative proposals is that measure requiring a new level of information sharing between governmental authorities and offenders. Simply put, Canadian officials will be obligated to inform a foreign citizen under its jurisdiction of the existence and substance of an international transfer treaty between Canada and the country of citizenship, a function that our Department of Foreign Affairs carries out with regard to Canadians convicted abroad. While this duty is routinely discharged, the added force of law will formalize the practice to the satisfaction of those signing treaties with Canada.

Another new provision will allow a foreign offender detained in Canada to cancel his request for a transfer at any point in time. This significant change will address the rare cases where the situation in the offender's country of origin has taken a turn for the worse between the time when transfer was requested and the time when it is to take place.

The last specific point I will mention may prove to be very important. This entails the new provisions to extend certain aspects of the transfer of offenders scheme to nations that have not yet joined the family of countries that currently have treaties with Canada for the transfer of offenders. One can see that circumstances might arise where such an accommodation would be essential to the well-being of a Canadian incarcerated abroad.

There are other aspects of Bill C-33 to explore, but I will leave it up to my hon. colleagues and, in due course, to the standing parliamentary committee responsible for looking into these measures.

Naturally, I am prepared to take questions from my hon. colleagues on these proposals.

International Transfer of Offenders ActGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Randy White Canadian Alliance Langley—Abbotsford, BC

Madam Speaker, I would like to address this bill in the House because it has some serious implications to some of the inequities that are created between Canada and the United States, and I want to go through those.

Bill C-33, an act to make an attempt to transfer inmates from prison in one country to another. I listened to a Liberal member across the way talk about the great things the government had done, particularly on the sex offender registry. I was the author of that registry three years ago and my party and I for two years in the House lobbied the other side to try to get a sex offender registry. There was absolutely zero appetite for it until the police, opposition, victims and every other group in the country basically forced it on the government. Now they are here today bragging how well they have done on the sex offender registry.

I want to tell the House that the people from British Columbia in Langley, Aldergrove and Abbotsford and in other areas are well aware of this. I really think it is degrading the way the government takes responsibility for these things when it is rammed down its throat.

However let us talk about the inequality of law between Canada and the United States. I want to relate it to the problems with transferring inmates.

The government is suggesting that we could take inmates from the United States and transfer them into Canada. If this happens, they would serve the lighter sentence in a Canadian prison. Basically we would have someone who is convicted of a sex offence in the United States. An agreement could be struck among the offender, Canada and the United States to transfer the sex offender across to our country because he was of Canadian nationality.

The first problem is the offender would get a lot more time in the United States than he would in Canada. He would get a lighter sentence automatically in Canada. Second, there are sex offender registries in every state in the United States on which this individual would be entered. Coming into Canada he would not be on a sex offender registry.

I do not understand the logic which comes across here other than this is entirely to the benefit of criminals and not victims. It is entirely to the benefit of criminals and not regular law-abiding citizens in Canada to bring a sex offender back into Canada, give him a lighter sentence, get him paroled and get him on the street with programs that are not compatible between Canada and the United States whilst incarcerated. Essentially a sex offender could come across into our country, not be on a registry, not be rehabilitated and get back out on the street. If that is what this country thinks we need, then I can only express my sincere disappointment once again on the problems associated with that.

Another case is the growing inequity between Canada and the United States and our drug laws. Canada is headed into a European model related to drugs. There is no question about that. The government already has started to endorse pilot projects for injection facilities for hard drugs, which is not acceptable to the vast majority of people in our country. Certainly there will be no support for that kind of process in my riding, in Walnut Grove, Abbotsford and Mount Lehman.

On one side of the international border we have a liberalized drug law based on a European model that is failing, not progressing.

Some Canadian who goes down to the United States and traffics cocaine or whatever could get 10 years. We make a deal to bring the trafficker back. In Canada that individual would likely get two years, maybe three at the most, but probably a fine, if we could find a judge who was not so Liberal that he would hand out a sentence.

What do we do? That individual who has trafficked cocaine to children in the United States, receives a 10 year sentence, moves back to Canada and gets out practically when he gets back into the country. I sincerely hope some thinking has gone about the legislation because these inequities certainly exist. In fact the legislation states that a Canadian offender is to serve only the shorter sentences.

There is a misguided idea that there is a compatible legal system within countries when there is not. This is because Liberals have been elected in the last three elections. We have a Liberal judicial system and Liberal courtrooms. We also have liberalized laws which are far different from most other countries. We are going to fail our people as a result of these transfers.

There is one other problem in this legislation, and it is under clause 38. It states, “This act applies in respect of all requests for transfer that are pending on the day that this section comes into force”. In other words, it is retroactive

I just do not get it. I do not understand why one piece of legislation, Bill C-33, the transfer of offenders legislation, is retroactive but the government does not have the wherewithal to make the sex offender registry retroactive. The sex offender registry is vastly more important than this legislation.

The sex offender registry, as I wrote it and the government adopted it, states that we will register all markings like tattoos, telephone numbers, addresses, all personal information of sex offenders. The government has to take all that information and ensure that it is updated by virtue of mandating individuals to complete the registration. If they do not update it voluntarily, then after a year if there have been changes and they are not reported, there will be some serious fines or possible imprisonment.

The problem is the government has said that all sex offenders in provincial or federal jurisdictions will not be on the register when it becomes law. That amounts to approximately 5,000 federal inmates and 5,000 provincial inmates, all sex offenders, none of whom will be on the registry on opening day because the government has not seen fit to make the registry retroactive.

I do not understand why an important piece of legislation like the sex registry, which is vital and valuable to the Canadian population, would not be made retroactive but this legislation, which is really not that important quite frankly, will be retroactive.

The implications on the sex offender registry are this. Sex offenders who are currently in prison and who have an extremely high recidivism rate could actually perpetrate yet another sex crime, get convicted, do their time in prison again before they would be put on the registry. That is one free sexual assault per every single sex offender held in prison today. That does not make any sense whatsoever. I can guarantee that the people I represent in Abbotsford, Langley and throughout the Fraser Valley cannot understand that either.

I will take this information back to my constituency and let them know. Yes, they will be upset and there will not be a Liberal elected there for decades I am sure. However the biggest problem is that because of the majority in the House of Commons this is the way it is going to be. I do not really think there is a Liberal across the way who can really justify the sex offender registry not being retroactive. I just do not believe in their own hearts they would comply with that.

The job is to challenge the members across the way to get into the justice committee and make that change without fear of reprisal from their government. I ask the members across the way to have the courage of their convictions because like the bill we are debating, some of the things we do in committee after they are assessed and evaluated are just as important as the tabling of the bill itself.

Therefore what have we got? We have a bill in front of us that is not as important as most bills and we have a bill in front of us with several serious flaws, not the least of which is the state of our prison system in Canada. I do not believe there is anyone in the House who is any more familiar with that than I am.

The fact of the matter is our prison system is not the most effective system. It is a liberal system but we have recidivism rates that are unacceptable. We have something labelled and identified called rehabilitation that does not work. We have more charges against guards than we do against the criminals themselves. Inmates have too much idle time in prison, not working if they do not want to work, not working for any amount of time that they put in. They are basically warehoused. This is not a productive system in my opinion.

Therefore we go to the United States or any other country and say, “Bring in an inmate and we will transfer him into our system”. Yes, he gets less time. Yes, he is idle. Yes, he is put out on the street and not rehabilitated. Yes, he has very likely been hooked on drugs. If he goes in clean in our prison, he comes out hooked on drugs.

I guess maybe the inmate who is in another country would like to come here because it is a soft touch. However I certainly do not think other countries would be all that willing to let inmates come into this country because they really would not serve the time properly.

The final point of this is that to make a transfer we need the consent apparently of the inmate, of the state that is receiving and the state that is sending but again the government did not include victims. Nowhere does the victim get any say whatsoever on this. Shame on the government. It is another piece of legislation that is not worth the paper on which it is written.

The House resumed from April 10 consideration of the motion that Bill C-13, an act respecting assisted human reproduction, be read the third time and passed, and of the amendment.

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5:30 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

It being 5:30 p.m., the House will now proceed to the taking of the deferred recorded division on the amendment on the motion at third reading stage of Bill C-13.

Call in the members.

(The House divided on the amendment, which was negatived on the following division:)

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6:05 p.m.

The Speaker

I declare the amendment lost.

The House resumed from April 11 consideration of Bill C-9, An Act to amend the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act, as reported (with amendment) from the committee.

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6:05 p.m.

The Speaker

The House will now proceed to the taking of the deferred recorded divisions on the report stage of Bill C-9. The question is on Motion No. 1.

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6:05 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Catterall Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

Mr. Speaker, I believe you would find consent in the House that those recorded as voting on the previous motion be recorded as voting on the motion now before the House and on Motion No. 2 and on Motion No. 8, with the Liberals voting yes, with the addition of the members for Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, Pickering—Ajax—Uxbridge, Mississauga East, Lac-Saint-Louis and Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, and with the deletion of the member for Ottawa South.

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6:05 p.m.

The Speaker

Is there unanimous consent to proceed in this fashion?

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6:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

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6:05 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Dale Johnston Canadian Alliance Wetaskiwin, AB

Mr. Speaker, Canadian Alliance members will be voting no on those three motions.

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6:05 p.m.

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-De- Beaupré—Île-D'Orléans, QC

Mr. Speaker, the members of the Bloc Quebecois will vote in favour of these three motions.

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6:05 p.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Mr. Speaker, the members of the New Democratic Party will vote against these three motions.

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6:05 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Rick Borotsik Progressive Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Mr. Speaker, all members of the Progressive Conservative Party as registered as voting in the last vote will be voting yes to these three motions.

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6:05 p.m.

Liberal

Jean Guy Carignan Liberal Québec East, QC

Mr. Speaker, I will vote in favour of these three motions.