House of Commons Hansard #106 of the 37th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was chair.

Topics

PrivilegeGovernment Orders

3:35 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Diane Ablonczy Canadian Alliance Calgary Nose Hill, AB

I didn't ask the question yesterday.

PrivilegeGovernment Orders

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Don Boudria Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

A question was asked by the opposition on the point yesterday and no late show was asked for, and a late show could have been if such were warranted in the eyes of the questioner.

The other point is that I am informed the committee in fact heard representation from either that hon. member or another hon. member on this topic. A motion was produced and the issue was defeated by the parliamentary committee when it was heard. This would suggest to me that the committee brought finality to the issue. That deals with the issue of the committee.

As for the issue as it is before the House, of course there could have been, as I said previously, an adjournment debate requested on the topic, as I understand the general line of questioning in that regard was either yesterday or at least very recently, and that could have provided additional information there.

But in all cases, no matter how we cut it, to invoke the fact that somewhere a decision has been rendered about deliberately misleading the House and then saying that that which has occurred is equivalent to that, I do not believe the case has been made or even invoked in that regard by the hon. member. Therefore the point she has raised is moot.

PrivilegeGovernment Orders

3:40 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Loyola Hearn Progressive Conservative St. John's West, NL

Mr. Speaker, I have never heard such a feeble attempt to excuse a minister from misleading a committee and the House. Not only were the minister and the officials accused of providing incorrect information, a court, a judge in a court of this land, said that the minister and the officials misled the committee and consequently the House.

There is a quick resolution to this. The House leader for the governing party talks about bringing closure and finality to the issue. How to do it was suggested by the hon. member for Calgary--Nose Hill. The minister either corrects or apologizes. It is simple.

This is just another blatant abuse of power. It is a complete and utter disrespect for Parliament. There is a way to bring finality to the issue and it is simply an apology or a correction from the minister involved.

PrivilegeGovernment Orders

3:40 p.m.

Bloc

Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral Bloc Laval Centre, QC

Mr. Speaker, I will not speak at length on the question of privilege raised by my colleague, the member for Calgary—Nose Hill.

Parliamentary committee work requires the utmost trust between committee members, the minister and officials. The whole issue involving people applying for permanent residence who wound up, because of circumstances, somewhat excluded, was a very sensitive one.

I think you should allow my colleague's question of privilege if only to establish the importance of trust. I recognize that sometimes people use figures that they are convinced are right. Everyone has done this at some point or another. Our children are constantly doing this with us.

That said, I think that once an error has been pointed out, it is mature and respectful of others to acknowledge that one has made an unintentional mistake. I trust your judgment to allow this question of privilege.

PrivilegeGovernment Orders

3:40 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

John Reynolds Canadian Alliance West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, BC

To be very brief, Mr. Speaker, the Auditor General has accused us in the House in the opposition of not doing our jobs by not asking the right questions on many issues. She makes a very good point sometimes and I think this is a very good point in case.

The House leader for the government said that we asked this question yesterday. We did not. It was not brought up. He talked about finality. It is very unclear that there is any finality. The minister has said that he will not appeal this to the Supreme Court.

We have talked about the word “deliberately”. If there was an inadvertent error in what the minister said, and I would certainly give him my trust that he was saying what he thought was correct in committee, as his officials may not have given him the right information, so if it is an inadvertent error that is one thing, but if it is not corrected it then becomes deliberate. That is all that I think some of the members of the House are saying: If there has been an inadvertent error here, let us not make it deliberate. Let us have the minister review his files overnight, maybe.

I am sure, Mr. Speaker, that as always you will take this under review and look at it. Maybe the minister could take this under review and look at what was said. If he could stand up in the House and say there was an inadvertent error and apologize for that, I am sure the House would be very satisfied, as would all Canadians.

PrivilegeGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Halifax West Nova Scotia

Liberal

Geoff Regan LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, just to respond to some of these comments, I am informed that the minister and his officials gave their best estimates to the committee in terms of the numbers in various appearances and they were explained as such.

I am advised that they never actually told the committee that 30,000 cases would remain in the inventory. That is not true. The minister and his officials have always indicated that they would not be able to process all of the skilled worker cases in the inventory prior to March 31, 2003. So there is no question of any official misleading the standing committee; they did their job and gave the best information they had to the committee.

PrivilegeGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

The Speaker

I thank the hon. member for Calgary—Nose Hill for raising the matter, the hon. member for Laval West for her contribution, and also the hon. member for St. John's West, the government House leader, and the parliamentary secretary to the government House leader. I hope I have covered everyone who participated. The Chair will take the matter under advisement and get back to the House in due course.

Points of OrderGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Joe Clark Progressive Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

Mr. Speaker, you will recall that on May 16 I advised you that I would be considering putting certain questions before the Chair relating to proceedings on Bill C-7, an act respecting leadership selection, administration and accountability of Indian bands, and to make related amendments to other acts.

The committee stage of the bill has been completed and the House will once again be seized with the bill at the report stage. I want to raise these points before the clock starts ticking on deadlines for the report stage.

Mr. Speaker, I recognize that you take very seriously the view that you are severely limited in your ability to intervene in the committee's affairs. However, I regret to report that the committee has not felt itself bound by the same respect for the rules of this place. You have already been made aware of proceedings that took place on April 2, during which the government majority on the committee voted to take away the rights of members to examine the clauses of the bill that was sent to the committee by the House.

That happened despite a ruling by the Chair that this action was out of order, so the clear intent of Standing Order 116 of the House was consigned to the trash bin. Members of the committee were denied the right to speak to a motion more than once, and the committee imposed time limits.

Standing Order 116 frees committees from those time limits and permits several interventions. That is not the practice in the House but it is explicitly, under Standing Order 116, the practice in committees.

At the same meeting, on a motion moved by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, the member for Miramichi, the committee also passed an order that required committee members to give notice of all proposed amendments for the entire bill prior to 5 p.m. on April 4.

Sir, the committee began its study of the clauses of the bill on April 8. During all deliberations after that, regardless of the evidence received, regardless of the testimony, regardless of the passage or rejection of other amendments, it was impossible for any member to submit a new amendment for consideration by the committee.

Yesterday I attended as a member of the committee, as I had two weeks ago. Now that I am going to have a little more time for these matters, I was prepared to contribute to the bill. It is a subject on which I have some experience and some feeling. It is in fact the first committee on which I served in this House.

Again yesterday I was confronted with an erratic and arbitrary committee chair. Frankly, I cannot recall anything to compare with it during my 25 years of parliamentary experience, perhaps with the exception of the table-hopping by the minister of heritage. Members of the committee were systematically prevented from participating and the chair refused to hear points of order. It is because of this constrained and chaotic proceeding that I want to seek your guidance.

There is a real concern on this side of the House over the scope of proposed amendments that can be put down at report stage. My question is whether the Speaker will be enlarging on the guidelines that Your Honour laid down on March 21, 2001. At that time, in dealing with the question of amendments that could have been moved at committee, Your Honour stated:

...motions in amendment that could have been presented in committee will not be selected.

Accordingly, I would strongly urge all members and all parties to avail themselves fully of the opportunity to propose amendments during committee stage so that the report stage can return to the purpose for which it was created, namely for the House to consider the committee report and the work the committee has done, and to do such further work as it deems necessary to complete detailed consideration of the bill.

That is the end of the citation of your ruling.

The procedure adopted by the passage of the parliamentary secretary's motion effectively closed off any potential amendments that could have surfaced as a result of debate in committee after the date of April 4. I submit that this action by the parliamentary secretary and the government supporters on the committee has prevented the whole committee from carrying out its duty as described by Your Honour.

Therefore, I am seeking clarification of the guidelines that the Speaker will use in determining the acceptability of proposed amendments at the report stage in a case where the committee to which a bill has been referred adopts a procedure that arbitrarily or peremptorily precludes amendments.

Let me refer back to the words of the ruling on March 21, 2001, when the Speaker said:

...I would strongly urge all members and all parties to avail themselves fully of the opportunity to propose amendments during committee stage so that the report stage can return to the purpose for which it was created, namely for the House to consider the committee report and the work the committee has done, and to do such further work as it deems necessary to complete detailed consideration of the bill.

In the case of Bill C-7, there has been only a very limited ability to propose amendments in committee. There was no capacity, none at all, to take account of new ideas that might have emerged as a result of debate or new evidence or new legal opinions or, indeed, new membership on the committee.

It is clear that there exists in the House, outside of the committee, opinions that have not always been canvassed and concerns that would fall into the description of, to quote the Speaker, “such further work” as the House may deem “necessary to complete detailed consideration of the bill”. The ability of the House to determine its desire to address those other concerns will very much depend on the Speaker's selection of proposed amendments at the report stage. I submit that it would be useful for the House to know if the Speaker is willing to vary the usual practices governing the selection of report stage amendments because of the arbitrary actions that took place in committee.

In doing so, I should make it clear that this is not just a concern for those of us who sit in opposition to the government. The Speaker may be aware that strong supporters of the government have stated that this bill is in need of serious re-examination and amendment. Indeed, the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development is reported to have challenged the member for LaSalle—Émard to propose amendments to the bill.

Unfortunately, because of the prohibition of consideration of new amendments adopted by the committee on the motion, I repeat, of the parliamentary secretary to the minister, that possibility was foreclosed to the member for LaSalle—Émard just as it was for any other member who might have wanted to bring fresh ideas to the committee. Indeed, yesterday the committee chair said that if the Prime Minister himself proposed new amendments, the chair would reject them.

The existing aboriginal and treaty rights of the peoples of the first nations are entrenched and recognized in the Constitution of Canada. The peoples of the first nations have every right to expect that the Queen's ministers and members of the Parliament of Canada would treat any matter touching them with diligence and gravity. That is what is known as our fiduciary responsibility with regard to the first nations peoples. Instead, we have had an erratic and arbitrary committee process that guarantees discord for years to come in the relations between the Government of Canada and first nations peoples.

Therefore, the House and those who would be subject to this bill, should it be enacted into law, would benefit from knowing if the Chair is prepared to grant wider latitude for proposed amendments to the bill, which is widely opposed among the people it purports to govern and has been subject to incomplete examination and arbitrary treatment in committee.

Points of OrderGovernment Orders

3:55 p.m.

Halifax West Nova Scotia

Liberal

Geoff Regan LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, what the right hon. member is seeking here obviously is that you consider things that have happened elsewhere other than in this place when deciding what the rules ought to be in this place.

He went on at some length about events in the committee. We all know that there have been many weeks of debate in the committee, when things have gone on day and night with a lot of discussion on this matter.

In any event, I am confident Mr. Speaker will want to follow the precedents and the rules that apply in this place in the normal fashion and will not want to deviate from those procedures for any reason in this matter.

Points of OrderGovernment Orders

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Yvan Loubier Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am a daily witness to that of which my right honourable colleague from the Progressive Conservative Party speaks. I have seen the events and breeches of procedure to which he refers. Every day I am a witness, as a permanent member of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs, Northern Development and Natural Resources, to the cavalier attitude of the committee chair and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development.

Decisions are reached daily in an arbitrary manner by the chair, with the backing of the parliamentary secretary. There is also an aggressive attitude which is unworthy of a committee chair. This committee functions, or should I say dysfunctions, according to a double standard. There is one set of decisions for government MPs and another set for those in opposition. I too, in my nine and a half years if service on standing committees of this House, have never seen such cavalier attitudes and such a double-standard approach to directing a committee.

Two weeks ago, we even heard the committee chair insult the institution of the House of Commons, describing the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs, Northern Development and Natural Resources as being made up of a bunch of powerless backbenchers. Whereas committees are said to be an extension of the House of Commons, the chair, who has a duty to maintain decorum, respect the institution and maintain order, is calling us on the committee a bunch of powerless backbenchers.

I have already raised a point of privilege on April 11 concerning the committee chair's behaviour. I have not yet had a response, since April 11. The offhand manner of the chair and the dysfunction of the committee have continued since April 11. I think we need to pay more attention to the matter raised by my honourable colleague and the fact that we are speaking of a dysfunction that is a breech of privileges and directly contrary to the Standing Orders of the House.

This time, with all due respect Mr. Speaker, I hope that you will pay careful attention to the point raised by my honourable colleague and will also respond to the point of privilege I raised on April 11. I feel this is becoming very important.

Points of OrderGovernment Orders

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Alexa McDonough NDP Halifax, NS

Mr. Speaker, I will be very brief because I think the point of order has been addressed by the hon. leader of the Progressive Conservative Party in a very thorough, competent and respectful way, respectful of the traditions and procedures of the House.

No one would know better than the member from the Bloc, other than my colleague from Winnipeg North, of that which the hon. leader of the PC Party speaks when he talks about the erratic and arbitrary treatment accorded to hon. members and to first nations people in the conduct of the aboriginal affairs committee in dealing with Bill C-7.

Mr. Speaker, I have full confidence that you will take under serious consideration the quite specific request for clarification that has been put by the hon. leader of the Progressive Conservative Party when he asks for clarification of the guidelines you will utilize in determining the acceptability of amendments at report stage to Bill C-7. This arises, of course, out of an earlier ruling going back to 2001, when similar concerns were raised.

I think one cannot exaggerate the unacceptability of the heavy-handedness and the disrespectful way in which the chair of this committee has dealt with his responsibilities. The point of order that has been raised speaks directly to the fiduciary responsibilities of the Government of Canada, of this place, Parliament, and of each and every parliamentarian in living up to our obligations to first nations people to accord them fair and respectful treatment.

I would simply add my concern along the same lines as already expressed and express my confidence in your ability to grasp why this needs to be something that seizes your attention, Mr. Speaker, and seizes the interest and concern of the House in discharging our fiduciary responsibilities.

Points of OrderGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

York South—Weston Ontario

Liberal

Alan Tonks LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of the Environment

Mr. Speaker, I have had the opportunity to sit as a very interested member on the aboriginal committee during its adjudication with respect to the bill. I also have sat on the subcommittee dealing with the needs of aboriginal children and have travelled extensively with that committee. Therefore the issue is of great importance and interest to me.

However the question that is before you, Mr. Speaker, is one on which I wish to comment. I also want to comment on the spirit and the goodwill with which the chairman, under very difficult circumstances, dealt with the issue. That is not to say that there were not very strong feelings with respect to the substance and subject matter of the bill. However no one tried harder than the chair to have an environment within which very difficult differences of opinion were expressed.

It is usual and customary, in the experience of the House, that where there are these kinds of problems the government is accused of closure. There was no closure attempt with respect to this. The committee sat and sat.

If the intent of the chair was to disallow and to arbitrarily not provide for a difference of opinion, then he was in abject failure. In fact, there was a huge amount of discussion. Amendments and subamendments were made. In fact, procedural mechanisms were used in an attempt to delay and obfuscate the committee from dealing with the bill and reporting it through to the House.

The chairman took that responsibility. He should be congratulated, not subjugated to this kind of partisan nonsense. He should be congratulated and thanked for the manner in which he sat and very patiently tried to adjudicate in an upfront way. Those are the facts of the case and no--

Points of OrderGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh.

Points of OrderGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

The Speaker

Order, please. The conduct of the chair is not the question before the House. The question before the House today, on a point of order raised by the right hon. member for Calgary Centre, concerns the admissibility of amendments at report stage. That is the issue I intend to deal with now. It has nothing to do with the conduct of the chair of the committee.

I would like to thank the hon. member for Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot for his explanation, as well as the hon. member for York South—Weston, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, the hon. member for Halifax and the Right hon. member for Calgary Centre.

I will not issue a new set of guidelines dealing with the admissibility of amendments at the report stage of bills. The guidelines that have been put to the House are contained in the standing orders and which I indicated I would enforce because the right hon. member will recall that the House adopted a motion dealing with the whole issue of the enforcement of the standing orders and the guidelines therein that resulted in the ruling that I made a couple of years ago now. I believe the ruling set out for all the guidelines that would apply. The guideline was very clear: that if it is impossible to move the amendment in committee it can be moved at the report stage.

If the committee by a motion made it impossible for the right hon. member to move some amendments in the committee, he will want to make that argument on an individual basis with respect to each of his amendments when he presents them at the report stage. He will have a sympathetic ear with the Speaker and with the clerks who advise the Speaker in respect of these matters.

However this has happened before, perhaps not precisely the same circumstances, but I recall, particularly in respect of the reproductive technologies legislation, that the hon. member for Mississauga South moved a number of amendments at the report stage because he was told he could not move his amendments in committee, and that is the only reason I admitted them at the report stage.

These things happen from time to time in our proceedings. The Chair will be sympathetic with the right hon. member, indeed with all hon. members who, for one reason or another, found they could not move their amendment at the committee stage, which is exactly what the guideline was.

If it can be moved there and could have been moved there it will not be accepted. If it was not moved there and could not have been moved there it may well be accepted by the Chair.

I want to reassure the right hon. member that the Chair will exercise due diligence in reviewing these matters with him or any other hon. member who chooses to come forward with an amendment at report stage and I will do my very best to be fair in all circumstances.

I appreciate that there has been substantial disagreement about the way in which this committee has operated because I heard about it in the House on a number of occasions.

I know that the hon. member for Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot has been very patiently awaiting a decision on a question of privilege that he raised a few weeks ago.

Perhaps we will wait until the committee work is completed because there really is nothing the Speaker can do to change the committee process under the circumstances. However, a ruling will undoubtedly be made soon on this issue and I am sure the hon. member will, as usual, be very pleased with it.

I wish to inform the House the good news that because of the deferred recorded divisions government orders will be extended by 28 minutes.

The House proceeded to the consideration of Bill C-25, an act to modernize employment and labour relations in the public service and to amend the Financial Administration Act and the Canadian Centre for Management Development Act and to make consequential amendments to other acts, as reported (with amendment) from the committee.

Public Service Modernization ActGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

Westmount—Ville-Marie Québec

Liberal

Lucienne Robillard LiberalPresident of the Treasury Board

moved that the bill be concurred in.

Public Service Modernization ActGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Public Service Modernization ActGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Public Service Modernization ActGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Public Service Modernization ActGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Public Service Modernization ActGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Public Service Modernization ActGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

All those opposed will please say nay.

Public Service Modernization ActGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Public Service Modernization ActGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And more than five members having risen:

Public Service Modernization ActGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Call in the members.

And the bells having rung: