House of Commons Hansard #114 of the 37th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was parties.

Topics

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

The Speaker

All those opposed will please say nay.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

The Speaker

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And more than five members having risen:

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

The Speaker

A recorded division on Motion No. 9 stands deferred.

The next question is on Motion No. 13. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

The Speaker

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

The Speaker

All those opposed will please say nay.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

The Speaker

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And more than five members having risen:

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

The Speaker

The division on Motion No. 13 stands deferred.

The next question is on Motion No. 14. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

The Speaker

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

The Speaker

All those opposed will please say nay.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

The Speaker

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And more than five members having risen:

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

The Speaker

The division on Motion No. 14 stands deferred.

We will now proceed to the motions in Group No. 2.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

Thornhill Ontario

Liberal

Elinor Caplan Liberalfor the Minister of State and Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

moved:

That Bill C-24 be amended by adding after line 31 on page 99 the following new clause:

“63.1 The Act is amended by adding the following after section 536:

536.1 After the submission to the House of Commons of a report under section 535 in relation to the first general election following the coming into force of this section, any committee of that House to which the report is referred shall, in addition to considering the report, consider the effects of the provisions of this Act concerning political financing that came into force on the same day as this section.”

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

Halifax West Nova Scotia

Liberal

Geoff Regan LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise on debate on Motion No. 11, the only amendment in Group No. 2.

Motion No. 11 would add a new section, 536.1, which would oblige a committee of the House to consider the effects of Bill C-24 when it receives the report of the chief electoral officer in which he makes recommendations following the first general election, following the coming into force of the bill.

The chief electoral officer makes two types of reports after each election. In one of them, required pursuant to section 535 of the Canada Elections Act, he or she makes recommendations on ways in which to improve the act in the electoral process. As part of its review of this report, a committee of the House would be mandated to study the effects of Bill C-24. In other words, that would be the Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. This obligation should ensure that there is an opportunity for parliamentarians to review the effects of Bill C-24 and make recommendations to the government.

We did have considerable discussion during the committee consideration stage of the bill about the various issues and elements of the bill and the impact they might have. Certainly there was an interest among members of the committee to have a process whereby the bill would be reviewed on a regular basis.

Motion No. 11 would mandate a committee of the House to review the bill after each election, giving members an opportunity to consider how the various elements of the bill have impacted, not only on the parties,but also the provincial and territorial associations, riding associations, candidates and leadership candidates. That will not happen every year, but from time to time there are leadership races. This has been an unusual year with the number we have had. However there are those races from time to time and I am sure the members would want to consider a variety of provisions of the bill and how they have impacted on the parties in the country after the next election.

This motion will provide for that. I think members generally would want to see this. Certainly that was my impression from the discussion in our committee, and I strongly support the motion.

I know there are members on my own side who have expressed some concerns about elements of the bill. There are those who feel that the limit on contributions from corporations and unions should be zero and there are others who feel it should be raised, for instance, to $5,000.

There are many things of that sort that can be looked at after the next election. It is an opportunity then to look at what the impact of the bill has been on election financing for the parties and what problems, or perhaps what successes, they have had under the new regimen.

Obviously, it is a brand new way of operating in terms of the financing of political parties in our country, or it is a big shift certainly. We know that 60% of political party financing is already public financing. This will increase it. Still there are major changes in the way parties and candidates can raise money. It will obviously be important for us to assess those changes and assess what impacts the new regimen have had. Motion No. 11 would allow the House to do that after each election.

I urge all colleagues in the House to support the motion.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

3:25 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Ted White Canadian Alliance North Vancouver, BC

Mr. Speaker, this is one part of Bill C-24 that the Canadian Alliance can support because it does not use a whole bunch of taxpayer money to fund the activities of a political party. It is designed simply to review the effects of Bill C-24 after the next election and for us to have a look to see whether it worked.

I fully expect that it will not have worked because this bill is so complicated. During committee stage, the government introduced amendment after amendment, technical correction after technical correction to fix all the problems that it did not find while it was writing the bill. I am absolutely certain, and I know this concern was shared by many of the other members on the committee with me, that we will find there are all manners of problems in the bill, all sorts of difficulties that we will not know about until the bill comes into force.

That was certainly one of the reasons why we proposed during committee that the bill not come into effect until January of 2005. That way we would have had the opportunity to go back and discuss in more detail with our electoral district associations, as they are now called, or riding associations as they used to be, and our party hierarchy how this bill would affect the way they would operate. If we had the chance to do that, we might discover all sorts of hidden problems that had not been anticipated. We would then have had the chance to deal with them before the bill came into effect.

However the government is determined to steam full ahead and get this bill through by tomorrow night. I am certain that will happen. I am fully expecting that the minister will stand in the House later today and move some sort of motion to limit the debate here so that he gets his way, or the Liberals can take a message to Mr. Stephen LeDrew, the president of their party, to let him know how much money they will get in their coffers.

I have done a little calculation based on the change being proposed by the government to raise the subsidy from $1.50 to $1.75 for each year for each vote that the government receives. The Liberal Party of Canada would receive $9,206,679.78. That is a huge amount of money and that will come to Liberal Party in a nice, big fat cheque compliments of the taxpayers, like it or not, by the end of January 2004. I am sure the minister is over there already with a big, new shovel, gold plated of course. He is right at the treasury trough ready to start shovelling that money out and into the Liberal coffers. They will be receiving $9,206,000 give or take.

We also are in favour of review of this bill after the next election, because I think, and my opinion is shared by a number of the witnesses who came to committee, that this bill is wide open to charter challenges. Unfortunately, the minister has a history of introducing to this place legislation which is problematic. Everything he has ever introduced here has cost the taxpayers an absolute fortune and/or a second fortune in legal challenges and the cost of court cases.

One of the most well known is the third party advertising challenge, commonly known by members of the public as the gag law. Three times governments over there have introduced this gag law to try to prevent ordinary Canadians from spending their own money to raise issues during election campaigns.

It is a well known fact, which the government throws at us all the time as if we would be embarrassed, that our leader was instrumental during his time with the National Citizens' Coalition in moving that case along to ensure that Canadians had the right to spend their own money to fight issues during election campaigns. I am proud of him and what he did in that role at the NCC, and we are looking forward to the ruling from the Supreme Court confirming that these gag laws are not to be permitted.

The government is unfortunately relying on a Quebec ruling to give it confidence that somehow this third party advertising will be struck down. The minister constantly quotes the Quebec court ruling in terms of referendum legislation where the Quebec court ruled that the yes side and the no side should be subject to restrictions during referendums so that we could not have these third parties on the outside also spending money on a yes or no side.

The flaw in the minister's argument is to try to compare a referendum to an election. They are nothing like one another. In a referendum we have a question which has a yes or a no answer. Therefore obviously there is some logic behind setting up rules on the amount that can be spent by each side.

When we talk about an election, there are an absolute multitude of issues that come forward and it is not necessarily true that the issue the government wants on the stage or, frankly, the issue the opposition wants on the stage is the issue that the taxpayers and voters want on the stage.

The members of the Canadian Alliance found ourselves in astonishing agreement with the Quebec representatives of unions in Quebec during the committee work. They came forward and said as part of their testimony to our committee that they supported the third party advertising. They found themselves in a situation during the recent Quebec election where one of the parties said what this union representative group felt were derogatory remarks about unionism in Quebec. They wanted to be able to advertise in the newspapers and send out letters contradicting what was said by the party. They were not allowed to because of the third party restrictions in Quebec.

They hope, as we do, that these third party rules will be struck down permanently because they realize, coming from the left, just as we do from a free enterprise side, that it is important to have the right to freedom on expression, especially during an election campaign.

The reason I have mentioned all this is it is extremely likely, I would say 99% certain, that the Supreme Court will agree with the courts in Alberta and will make it impossible for the government to have a gag law. It will open it up for third party spending, in which case there will be a tremendous impact on this bill. If and when third party advertising is opened up wide, then most of the provisions in this bill, which put restrictions on everyone from candidates to parties in terms of the spending, will be irrelevant and it will require a major overhaul virtually before the ink is dry after passage.

It is very important that we do have that review, and we are very pleased to support that motion when it comes forward for the vote, probably later today I would think the way things are moving at the moment.

I will just briefly mention that because the bill is set to come into effect on January 1, 2004 there is very little time for riding associations, candidates and so on, to learn all the new rules in the bill. It really is an extremely complex bill.

During committee I tried, on behalf of the official opposition, to amend the bill to simplify the reporting requirements for riding associations, electoral districts as they are now called, because of the amount of administration that would be required by this new bill. Unfortunately, the government saw fit to defeat my suggestions, which is unfortunate.

I think many of us will have difficulty finding volunteers to carry out the extent of administration that will be required by this bill. Once a year riding associations will have to put in very extensive reports about their source of revenues and the number of donors they had. They will have to keep pretty comprehensive records about who has donated when and where.

I will give the government credit for accepting one amendment on behalf of the Canadian Alliance which makes it a little easier for riding associations to pass the hat at an AGM. The way the government had this bill set up, if anyone put in more than $10, they would need a receipt and we would have to keep track of how many dollars they contributed over the year.

The government did agree to accept an amendment I put forward which raises that to $25. At least it makes it a little more simple now for electoral district associations at an AGM to pass the hat without having to worry about keeping track of every little $10 bill that goes into that hat.

The government would not agree to make that a non-reporting activity. It still will be necessary for the electoral district association to report the type of event that it was, the number of people who attended, how much money was collected and approximately the number of people who were there. It is still a bit complicated but better than it was.

I will say that I could speak all day on the bill. I have 49 pages of notes. It is extremely complex. In wrapping up on this round, I will confirm that we do support this motion, which would allow for a revision of the bill immediately after the next election.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am happy to participate in the debate on the only motion in Group No. 2, which basically instructs Parliament that in addition to reviewing the report from the Chief Electoral Officer it also conduct a review of the effects of the act in plain language.

I agree with the previous speaker that this is a very important part of the parliamentary process. I know that all members are working diligently or have in the committee and even in debate now to raise points which have been discussed very substantively through the House.

I think Canadians should understand that the provisions of the bill have been well known for some time and that consultations have taken place throughout all the parties. There have also been briefing sessions as well, even at committee where large numbers of members participated and represented the interests of their constituents and indeed their parties.

The previous speaker also mentioned that he felt the bill would pass very quickly and with large numbers. I think that is an interesting speculation. However, I must admit, having participated in some of the discussions, that I know there are some concerns. Some people would like to have seen things a little differently. Even earlier I did speak about the net impact of having any corporate or union donations at all and what that might mean in terms of administrative cost savings, et cetera.

These are questions that I know were considered, but I think members will also know there seems to be a very strong consensus that the principle of the bill is sound and that this change in the electoral financing in itself is not going to totally resolve the perception of the public with regard to the influence that corporations and unions have on elected officials.

Today I believe there are seven motions which were selected for debate, grouped into three groups, but there were some fifteen motions presented at report stage by members. A number of them were rejected in a ruling by the Speaker for a variety of reasons, which he laid out. It is quite relevant to note that there are a couple of motions here which are quite substantive. One report stage motion had to do with the suggestion to increase the donation limit for corporations or unions from $1,000 to $5,000. In fact, then, any donor, whether it be an individual or a corporation or union, would be at $5,000. That presumes the report stage motion decreasing individual donations down to $5,000 is in place.

The other motion rejected by the Speaker was that the in force date of the bill be January 1, 2005 rather than, as the bill presently states, January 1, 2004. There have been substantial discussions about whether or not, and I think even the speaker prior to me mentioned this, the system could prepare itself for the next election in time, knowing how diligent the Chief Electoral Officer has been in the past to make sure that members and all those who are interested in seeking public office have up to date rules guiding the conduct of elections and indeed of nominations. As we know, the bill even impacts the maximum that someone could spend on a nomination meeting, which is going to be linked to the spending of a prior campaign. There are some issues. I think that for a large number of people an in force date delayed to January 1, 2005 would have been preferable in terms of making sure that riding associations and candidates, regardless of whether they are currently elected or want to seek election in the next campaign, have an opportunity to make plans.

I would also mention at this time that under our current system of elections we in fact have a system that is substantially publicly funded already, and the reason we have a publicly subsidized electoral process in Canada at the federal level and indeed at the provincial level is so that all Canadians regardless of their means have an opportunity to run and to be competitive in an electoral campaign. I think that is extremely important. The principle of a publicly supported electoral process makes sure that people cannot buy elections by overspending or spending way beyond what someone of normal means would be able to either contribute themselves or raise through a fundraising process. This principle of maintaining the public support means that we have a healthy democratic system of integrity, an overall process which I think members will know and Canadians should know is much different from that of the United States.

We know that in the United States congressmen are elected for two years. They spend one year trying to do their job but the second year is spent totally on fundraising for the next campaign, which could cost millions of dollars. Imagine what it would be like in Canada if people could actually raise and spend millions of dollars trying to get themselves elected to Parliament. It does not happen in Canada. It means that we are not beholden to large money. I think that is the principle here. Even to the extent that there are limits on the current contributions, these changes being proposed in Bill C-24 in fact reinforce and basically reduce corporate influence through their contributions, substantially from even where they exist now.

Canadians should take great pride in our electoral process in terms of the fact that there is not the same kind of situation we have in the U.S. and in many other countries, where large dollars way in excess of the value of the job are spent simply to get elected. This is where I think we see some of the public cynicism with regard to elected office, because the public sees and hears about these large amounts of money being spent by congressmen and senators in their electoral races in the United States.

Canada has nothing to be ashamed of in terms of our electoral process. Having been a candidate in four general elections, I know how difficult it is to raise money. I had a chance, though, and as there is no family money., I was raising money predominantly from friends and acquaintances and those who believed that I would make a credible candidate. Members will know that the vast majority of people here are elected not for what they promise to do but rather because of what they have done, particularly in individual constituencies, before coming here. Members come here on their reputations. Money really does not have a great deal to say.

I know that members have also argued it is not the ordinary backbenchers who are the difficulty. The perception is with regard to cabinet ministers or others, maybe, who have important responsibilities over and above being just a member of Parliament. I would say that the motion in Group No. 2 is a valuable motion. It is certainly to be expected that we would continue to do an ongoing review of our electoral financing process to make absolutely sure that should there be any motions here that maybe should have been considered this time around, they will get reconsidered after the next election, we will have a process that will constantly be looking at this, and the public will also have an opportunity to have input into that process as we move forward.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Scott Brison Progressive Conservative Kings—Hants, NS

Mr. Speaker, it is with pleasure today that I rise to speak on Bill C-24, as I am fundamentally opposed to much of what is included in Bill C-24. I think this legislation strongly favours incumbency. It strongly and particularly favours the governing party. Having the money going to political parties determined by the results of the last federal election is like having one's mortgage based on the value of one's last house. It makes no sense at all.

I do not like the anti-democratic nature of this legislation in the fact that we lose any right as individual taxpayers to control where the government subsidy goes in terms of political parties. Currently if an individual Canadian wishes to choose to support one political party or the other, that is his or her choice. Through the tax system there is a subsidy, but the choice lies with the individual Canadian. We are taking that choice away from individual Canadians and instead using a highly bureaucratized method of financial support, taxpayer support, for political parties, not based on individual taxpayer or voter choice but based on a ridiculous, arbitrary decision of the previous electorate. It makes absolutely no sense to deny individual citizens the right to choose where their money goes in terms of the support of political parties.

Currently, if individual Canadians support the Progressive Conservative Party, the Alliance or the Bloc Québécois, that is their choice. We are taking that choice away from them with this legislation and instead just basing it on the arbitrary result of the last federal election. It makes no sense whatsoever.

I am in favour of caps of perhaps $10,000 on corporate and union donations and full disclosure. I think there is an inherent check and balance in full disclosure. In fact, as long as there is a cap on corporate and union donations and there is full disclosure, I do not think there is any problem whatsoever in having both unions and corporations contribute to political parties.

I will give members some examples. Twenty-five per cent of my party's revenue stream comes from corporate donations. Special events and dinners account for 35% of our revenue, and of that, 90% comes from corporations. There is no real discussion on how this revenue would be replaced. Effectively taking the choice away from individual corporations and unions simply on an arbitrary assessment based on the results of the last election makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Individual Canadians ought to have a right to determine where their financial support for the political process ought to go. Individual corporations ought to have that right as well.

We must not forget that corporations pay taxes. Denying corporations and unions an opportunity to participate in the process in a direct and fully disclosed way and in a transparent way will simply lead to them finding other ways to support the political process which may be less transparent.

For any number of reasons, this legislation is, as the president of the Liberal Party of Canada has said, as crazy as a bag of hammers, and I do not often agree with the president of the Liberal Party of Canada. It certainly does not address the real need for political finance reform in Canada. Clearly, addressing disclosure and putting caps on corporate and union participation or contributions would make sense.

However this anti-democratic legislation, which further divides Canadians from the political process and provides a huge head start based upon incumbency to the current governing party, will further divide Canadians from the political process.

If we look over the last 30 years, but particularly over the last 10 years, Canadians have drifted away from politics. This legislation will divide Canadians further from the political process. I am strongly opposed to the legislation and would urge, as many members on the government's side who have also raised these issues, the government to reconsider this legislation which is fundamentally flawed, anti-democratic and unfair, not just to those involved directly in the political process, as members of Parliament and as candidates, but is fundamentally unfair to Canadian voters and the Canadian taxpayer as well.