Debates of Sept. 15th, 2003

Government Contracts

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I just gave the answer to the member.

The RCMP is doing very independent work and the Auditor General, who is an officer of the House, is a very important independent officer of the House, and both of them are doing their jobs as they have to do. I have nothing else to add.

Foreign Affairs

[Stockwell Day, Canadian Alliance, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Mr. Speaker, this summer a female Canadian photographer, Zahra Kazemi, was wrongly arrested by the Iranian regime, tortured and beaten to death. Our government has not even demanded a public apology or restitution to the Kazemi family.

Another Canadian, William Sampson, was wrongly arrested by the Saudi regime and for nearly three years was tortured and beaten, almost to the point of death. Our government has made no demand there for a public apology or restitution to Mr. Sampson.

Instead of making the Saudi ambassador feel at home in Canada, why will the government not send him home to Saudi Arabia until he gets restitution for Mr. Sampson and an apology to all Canadians?

[Bill Graham, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member knows, as well as every member of the House, the responsibility of the government is to protect Canadians abroad. The responsibility of the government is to rest in communications with governments where Canadians are in problems.

We are making statements. We are working with the Iranian government. We have taken strong positions with the Iranian government to deal with the Kazemi case. We are taking strong steps with the Saudi government to deal with the treatment of Mr. Sampson.

In spite of the efforts of this member and his party, I will not put Canadians at risk abroad by breaking off public relations--

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Okanagan—Coquihalla.

[Stockwell Day, Canadian Alliance, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Mr. Speaker, we are here to protect Canadians.

On January 31, while Canadian Bill Sampson was close to death in a Saudi torture chamber, our Minister of Foreign Affairs said that they were making sure that Mr. Sampson was well treated and that he had all his rights available to him. Now in a disturbing revelation, foreign affairs officials have admitted that the minister knew for some time that Mr. Sampson was being tortured.

Why did the minister not go public with this information and shame the Saudi regime into stopping the torture of Mr. Sampson?

[Bill Graham, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member will remember the record and he can check with what I said to the press.

I consistently said to the hon. member and to members of the press that we would do nothing which would put Mr. Sampson's life at risk, and the hon. member would have. That was his choice. Our choice was the responsible one.

Government Contracts

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in the sponsorship scandal, Communication Coffin is charged with fraud of $2 million, and the Liberal Party of Canada, which received a percentage in the form of a $20,000 contribution, is now under investigation.

Since the RCMP investigation led it as far as the Quebec wing of the Liberal party, how can the Prime Minister continue to refuse to order an independent public inquiry that would shed light on the political involvement of his ministers in the sponsorship scandal, which the RCMP is unable to do?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I just said that, several months ago, we asked the RCMP and the Auditor General to do their work. In the case cited by the hon. member, they did do their work. The individual in question is presumed to have defrauded the government. If so, and if that individual is found guilty by the courts, he will have to suffer the consequences, which will in all likelihood be quite serious.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the public has the right to know what role Alfonso Gagliano and other ministers played in the sponsorship scandal. The public has the right to know the truth before the next election campaign. Therefore, an independent public inquiry is essential.

Will the Prime Minister authorize such an inquiry now or will he do the same thing he did during the last election, which was to sweep everything under the rug, say that the RCMP is investigating and not talk about it. There is still no word on what happened with HRDC. Perhaps it is still under investigation. No one knows. Meanwhile, the election took place and the Prime Minister got off the hook.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, in the case mentioned by the hon. member of the Bloc Quebecois, the investigation phase has been completed. We are now at the point where charges have been laid. What does this mean? This means that the Office of the Auditor General and the RCMP, completely independent bodies, have fulfilled the mandate they received from Parliament.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, at the end of his mandate, the Prime Minister cannot deny that the sponsorship scandal will leave a terrible blot on his personal record.

Instead of trying to have his successor get through the entire next election hiding behind investigations that we hardly ever hear about afterwards, will the Prime Minister admit that the best way to exonerate his cabinet ministers—who were probably not involved in the sponsorship scandal—would be to call for nothing short of a public inquiry?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased that the member concedes that the ministers probably did nothing wrong. That confirms what we have been saying all along in this House.

The fact that this is before the courts as we speak proves that we were right to ask the Auditor General and the RCMP to step in. Anyone who has cheated will have to suffer the consequences, which is what is happening in the case the leader of the Bloc Quebecois and the member are referring to.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is common knowledge that the police and the Auditor General are investigating the administration of the program. Now it is expanding to include benefits apparently derived by the Quebec wing of the Liberal Party.

Does the Prime Minister not understand that what really concerns us is the role some of his ministers played in the sponsorship scandal? Those are the people the public wants to know more about. Only a public inquiry could look into such aspects as the role certain cabinet ministers played in the scandal.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, again, the charges are unfounded. The police are doing their job. At present, charges have been laid against individuals who are not linked in any way with the government.

I cannot conclude that the government is involved. The police are doing their job. The Office of the Auditor General is doing its job. These are independent organizations. The fact that action is being taken in the courts clearly proves they are doing a good job.

Agriculture

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, the government has picked up where it left off in the spring, mired in scandal, infighting and under investigation by the RCMP. What is really scandalous is the way it has handled some of the big crises in the country, whether it be softwood lumber, SARS or BSE.

In July I wrote to the Prime Minister and I invited him to lead an all party delegation to Washington to personally intervene on behalf of farmers and those stakeholders affected by the BSE crisis.

Will the Prime Minister commit to personally intervening in this file on behalf of all farmers and Canadians being affected by the ban on Canadian beef?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I have done it. I have talked with the President and with other officials of the administration. The Minister of Agriculture did such a good job on this file that even the provincial government of a different colour, the Conservative Premier of Alberta, has congratulated the Minister of Agriculture because he has done a very good job on behalf of farmers of Canada.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, it is obviously not enough because there are still hundreds of thousands of Canadians being affected by the partial ban on Canadian beef.

I ask the Prime Minister again. Will he personally involve himself in this file? Will he endorse or lead an all party delegation to Washington with stakeholders to make those face to face representations to the Americans to help lift that ban on beef, or will he stay in 24 Sussex and just wait out his time?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member did a bit of reading, he would understand that there has been only one country that has had cases of mad cow that has managed to sell into the American market. Take the British for example. They have not been able after a year to sell one pound of beef to the American market. We have managed to reopen the market within weeks.

The Economy

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that since the House rose in June, over 57,000 Canadians have lost their jobs.

I want to say this to the Prime Minister. While the Liberals were playing their silly insider games having to do with the leadership and while we have this strange mating dance going on between the Conservatives and the Alliance, 57,000 Canadians lost their jobs. When will the government make that a priority? When will we hear something from the government about what it will do about unemployment in this country because it is growing.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, in the spring the hon. member was running for the leadership. We did not complain because he was not in the House of Commons. The leadership this summer we were not in the House of Commons. He cannot use that. The number of ministers running in the leadership is not great.

The reality is that while the Americans lost millions of jobs last year, the Government of Canada created 565,000 new jobs in the previous months. We had two bad months--

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Winnipeg—Transcona.

Softwood Lumber

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I could put it more eloquently, but certainly when it comes to quality and quantity, there is something wrong with the Liberal leadership race. That is not what I wanted to ask the Prime Minister about.

He was not in the House of Commons. Maybe he was on the golf course. The point of the matter is that they were not on the file of all those Canadians losing their jobs, over 50,000 Canadians.

I wish to ask the Prime Minister with respect to softwood lumber, for instance, when will he get tough with the Americans and tell them if they keep this up, despite Canada winning court battles, that we will start to link softwood lumber exports to oil and gas if they do not start treating this country fairly?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, what he is doing at this moment is the best recipe to ensure that we make no progress at all.

At the moment we have won many cases in front of the international courts on these subjects. We are making progress. The level of export to the United States is still very high. However just to blackmail our partners on that I do not think is a very practical instrument.

Grants and Contributions

[Brian Pallister, Canadian Alliance, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Mr. Speaker, it has been almost three years since the premier of the HRDC billion dollar boondoggle and it looks as though it is continuing. Now several HRDC employees have been implicated for their mishandling of funds. This is billion dollar boondoggle two, the sequel, and it is a tragedy.

Despite implementing a six point action plan and committing an additional $50 million, the minister missed the boat on this one. Why did it take a municipal police force to unearth this wrongdoing?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, it is appalling and it is shocking when we get information about employees who wilfully choose to cheat the system.

In this case the police advised us of the possible involvement of some employees in one of their investigations. We immediately took action, starting our own investigation, bringing in forensic auditors, containing our files and making referrals to the RCMP.

The hon. member will know that we have taken severe disciplinary action up to and including firing. We continue to work with the police on this file, and their investigation continues.