House of Commons Hansard #124 of the 37th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was counsellor.

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12:40 p.m.

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-De- Beaupré—Île-D'Orléans, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am extremely pleased to speak to this bill on behalf of the Bloc Quebecois. Other hon. members from my party will also speak on Bill C-34, the bill to create the position of ethics commissioner.

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12:40 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

John Duncan Canadian Alliance Vancouver Island North, BC

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I understood there would be 10 minutes of questions and comments. Are we entering into debate?

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12:40 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Yes, there was a provision for 10 minutes of questions and comments. I put out to the floor the possibility for questions and comments but when no one rose to seek the floor I then called for a resumption of debate. The member for Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans has the floor.

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12:40 p.m.

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-De- Beaupré—Île-D'Orléans, QC

Mr. Speaker, I hope you will restart the clock at zero. That is a good way to make us lose our concentration, and all the more so since we do not actually have a time clock, something I requested of the Special Committee on the Modernization and Improvement of the Procedures of the House of Commons. It seems that my voice was not heard by the committee members. But that is not my point and I would not want to cause you trouble.

I am pleased to speak to Bill C-34, which provides for the creation of the position of ethics commissioner. In particular, today we are examining the bill at third reading.

When talking about an ethics commissioner, I would like to begin by saying, “At last.” I would like to add, “Better late than never.” I would like to suggest that members read the Liberal Party's red book, a veritable bible for all Liberal candidates in the 1993 election. The red book entitled “Creating Opportunity: the Liberal Plan for Canada” talked about an ethics commissioner. This red book clearly stated:

A Liberal Government will appoint an independent Ethics Counsellor...The Ethics Counsellor will be appointed after consultation with the leaders of all the parties in the House of Commons and will report directly to Parliament.

That is why I would say, “At last. Better late than never.” Sometimes we find that our constituents or other people we meet tend to view politics and politicians with rose coloured glasses and sarcasm. I think that the fact of having waited 10 years and gone through three elections with this recommendation shows how much the Liberal government wants to live up to the promises it makes in its campaign literature. It is high time that this government decided to keep its promise.

We must not forget that, over the past ten years, various events occurred within this government in relation to which the appointment of an independent ethics commissioner—and I stress the word independent—would have been quite appropriate. Let me explain.

Over the past decade, the Liberal government has faced numerous scandals, which remain unresolved. This is true of the majority of these scandals. We only need think, to name only the biggest, of the Auberge Grand-Mère and HRDC scandals, as well as the sponsorship program, in relation to which the RCMP laid charges just a few weeks ago. However, the Bloc Quebecois noticed that the Minister of Public Works avoided the issue for nearly a year and said that it had been referred to the RCMP for investigation. It took a year before charges were laid.

I remind this government that the corrective measures taken do not change the past. In Quebec, we have the wonderful motto “Je me souviens” or “I remember”. Unfortunately, we do not repeat it enough. I hope that people will remember this Liberal government's ethical failures. Although the hon. member for LaSalle—Émard was all but crowned leader yesterday, it is important to remember that he was a member of this government and a cabinet minister for most of the past ten years.

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12:45 p.m.

Bloc

Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

We could also mention tax havens.

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12:45 p.m.

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-De- Beaupré—Île-D'Orléans, QC

My hon. colleague from Terrebonne—Blainville tells me that we could also mention tax havens; we could talk about companies that do not pay taxes here and which transfer all their revenues to tax havens. We could talk about this for a long time.

So, this ethics commissioner would replace the government's ethic's counsellor, Howard Wilson. I am a member of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, which is considering the adoption of a code of conduct, and Mr. Wilson has been following the committee's work quite diligently. There were rumours that he might be interested in this position.

But, with all due respect for Mr. Wilson, it is not necessarily him, but the role he played over the past ten years. He was the independent ethics counsellor the Bloc Quebecois had hoped for. Over the past ten years, Mr. Wilson has acted as a political advisor to the Prime Minister, the hon. member for Saint-Maurice. He did not act like someone responsible for ensuring that the government behaved ethically.

Let us say, whether out of ignorance or incompetence, or what is termed in legal parlance wilful blindness, Mr. Wilson had a rather questionable view of ethics. If anyone needs convincing, they need only think of the example of the Prime Minister's ethics adviser authorizing secret meetings between the hon. member for LaSalle—Émard, owner of Canada Steamship Lines—a situation he has apparently regularized recently—and the directors of that company.

This is a rather dubious view of ethics, a rather elastic view. The property of elastic is that it can be stretched to suit us. There can be no denying the fact that, at these meetings, the hon. member for LaSalle—Émard certainly acquired certain information about his assets.

We in the Bloc Quebecois are in favour of the ethics commissioner receiving complaints from members, and those members receiving feedback and follow up.

We also are in favour of having the ethics commissioner report to Parliament. At the present time, the ethics adviser reports to the Prime Minister in total secrecy, behind closed doors, unbeknownst to anyone, away from prying eyes and ears. This is not what is expected of an ethics commissioner.

We are told that there is total transparency on the government side. If it has nothing to hide, the government has only to appoint an independent ethics commissioner. That is what the bill indicates and I can tell hon. members that, on this side of the House, we are in favour of having the commissioner report to Parliament.

We were in favour of referring the bill to the procedure and House affairs committee prior to second reading, because we wanted to see certain points clarified by that process. Today it is very hard to get a precise idea of the provisions, as long as we are unable to analyze the bill in parallel with the parliamentarians' code of ethics, which we are currently involved in drafting in the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

In all humility, we believe that the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs has all the expertise it requires to analyze the bill and make any necessary amendments.

Some issues must be clarified. Among them, is this question: in what particular ways should the rules apply to ministers? After all, the code of conduct we are now working on is intended to govern parliamentarians.

We all know that a minister, is, of course, a member of Parliament, and governed by our code of conduct. Nevertheless, what will become of the code of conduct for ministers that the Prime Minister has a member of Parliament sign when he or she becomes a cabinet minister? Which of these rules will take precedence? Is it the code of conduct which governs the work, decisions, and functions of all MPs, or that governing the minister in decisions made in that role? The bill should clarify this issue.

Is there a complaints process if members should fail to respect the code of conduct? That also should be clarified. What will the penalties be, and so on? There are a certain number of points in this regard on which we would like some information.

In short, our party is pleased that the bill has been referred to committee before second reading. We believe that this bill requires very serious analysis, and that this analysis, as I said before, should take place in conjunction with the study of the code of conduct we have doing in the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

There is one more element of interest to us. When I say this, I hope it will show the House that we are not an opposition party that criticizes simply for the pleasure of criticizing. When elements of a bill do not suit us, we say so loud and clear, and we defend the interests of Quebeckers. On the other hand, when we in the Bloc agree with certain elements, we also want that to be known.

The element in question is that we will be assured from now on that the leaders of recognized parties in the House will be consulted on the subject of appointing the ethics commissioner, since this obligation will be written in the law.

When we questioned Mr. Wilson's competency, the Prime Minister told us, “Yes, but you were consulted. We consulted you.” Obviously, there are different kinds of consultations, one of which is more informative: “I hereby advise you that I have made such and such a decision.” There is another possibility, which is: “I am asking for your opinion.” The presumption is that the decision has not yet been made.

In this case, consultations by the Prime Minister regarding Mr. Wilson's appointment were bogus: “Please be advised that I have appointed so and so. This is the person I want.” It is important, nonetheless, to be careful.

This legislation would make this a statutory requirement from now on. This was not part of the Prime Minister's commitment set out in the draft legislation introduced on October 23. So, now the House of Commons is supposed to adopt a resolution to approve, as well, the appointment of the ethics commissioner.

This provision was not included in the draft legislation. In a unanimous report tabled in April 2003, the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs recommended that these provisions be included.

In closing, I want to say that we also welcome the formal establishment of a complaint process for parliamentarians with regard to ministers, ministers of State and parliamentary secretaries.

Additionally, each year, the commissioner should table in the House a report of his activities. These provisions are set out in the draft legislation introduced last fall.

In short, our party supports Bill C-34, but we must recognize that there is still room for improvement.

I know that the members of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs will be able to make constructive suggestions to ensure that this legislation is improved.

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12:55 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Bill Casey Progressive Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise and speak anytime in the House and although I wish we had made more progress in developing Bill C-34 into what it should be, I will speak to it today.

As other members mentioned earlier, Bill C-34 is a missed opportunity. It is a missed opportunity for the Liberals to keep a promise. Someone earlier mentioned the 1993 Liberal red book. I will quote a part of it. It says “The Ethics Counsellor...will report directly to Parliament”.

That is a nice simple statement. It was a promise by the Liberals that if Canadians voted for them they would keep this promise. Ten years later they still have not kept it. In fact, they are entrenching it with Bill C-34, which is an alternative to what they promised Canadians in 1993.

The red book went on to say “The Liberal government will appoint an ethics counsellor who will be available to the Prime Minister to investigate allegations of impropriety by cabinet ministers”.

It is amazing to note that the Liberals kept half of their promise but not the other. The ethics counsellor, unfortunately, does not report directly to Parliament. He in fact reports directly to the Prime Minister. I am not sure how much the ethics counsellor gets paid but I imagine it is in excess of $200,000 a year. He probably has a car, an office, a lot of benefits and an expense account like none of us have. It is a huge job. The Prime Minister has bestowed a great benefit on the ethics counsellor.

When the ethics counsellor has to deal with issues which could possibly smear the Prime Minister indirectly, such as when a minister is being accused of doing something wrong, it is only human nature for the ethics counsellor not to do anything to jeopardize his position and hurt the person who gave him the big job with the big money and the person with the power to renew his contract. It would be just human nature that the ethics counsellor would not do anything to jeopardize his position and hurt the person who employed him, the person who appointed him, the person to whom he answers, and the person under whose pleasure he serves. It is really backwards.

If a minister is accused of wrongdoing and the ethics counsellor is brought in, it is like a judge, or in this case the ethics counsellor, working for the accused. If he determines that the minister failed to do something properly, correctly or ethically, it would be a smear on the Prime Minister who is also the judge's boss. The judge works for the Prime Minister. He serves at the pleasure of the Prime Minister. He answers only to the Prime Minister. It is a shame the Liberals missed the opportunity to fix that. I feel the whole bill is worthless because they did not do that one thing.

They can extend it to include members of Parliament, like myself, or to senators and others. However it does not matter because in the end the ethics counsellor answers to the Prime Minister. It is exactly the same. In fact, if the ethics counsellor turns out to be partisan, and I think human nature will deem he or she will be, those of us in the opposition who might have an exact same circumstance as a member in the government, may receive a completely different determination from the ethics counsellor. We might be accused of wrongdoing whereas someone on the government side may not because the ethics counsellor reports to the government. He serves at the pleasure of the government. This to me is a scary thing.

We have heard lots of accusations of scandal and corruption, but it has not been members of Parliament who have been accused. Even senators are not accused very often. It is mostly ministers who are in a position to influence the government's spending, to direct funds to certain parties that may be supporters or otherwise, or to make deals that could somehow indirectly benefit property they own or something like that. It is not members of Parliament who are accused of things like that, it is cabinet ministers.

Bill C-34 has been broadened so much to cover so many of us it looks like an enhancement, but it really is not. As long as the judge, in this case the ethics counsellor, answers to the Prime Minister for his job, for his pay and for his benefits, the position will never be impartial. It will never make any sense to me.

One can just imagine what it would be like if the Auditor General answered to the Prime Minister. We would never see these reports that come out that are so well done and so accurate. We are lucky to have her in this job and to have her answering to Parliament. She has come out with scathing reports on HRDC, on public works issues and on the sponsorship program. She reports on the military and on fisheries. Her reports are impartial and I am sure they effect positive change.

On the other hand, the ethics counsellor answers only to the Prime Minister. His reports go to the Prime Minister and we never know what is in them or what is behind them. It is all done behind closed doors, as opposed to the Auditor General who answers to Parliament. It is a wonderful system. We are very fortunate to have the excellent auditors that we have had. The fact that they answer to Parliament makes the Auditor General's Office perhaps the most valuable institution in Ottawa.

However it is just human nature that when our boss wants an answer and our jobs depend on giving a certain answer, we will give that answer in many cases. This is especially true if the job is as lucrative as the job the ethics counsellor has now.

I believe the ethics counsellor is in a conflict of interest. He knows his job will be in jeopardy if he gives the wrong report because he does not answer to Parliament. He answers to the Prime Minister. If he does anything to smear the Prime Minister, the cabinet or the government , his job could be at risk. Therefore he is in a conflict of interest and Bill C-34 entrenches that.

Recently we had the independent ethics commissioner in Ontario, who answers to the legislature in Ontario, write a scathing report about an expense by a minister. The minister had to resign over the expense. That would never happen here.

The ethics counsellor here would say that he met all the criteria, that he did this or he did that, and it would be all smoothed over and everything would be hunky-dory because he answers to the Prime Minister. He serves the Prime Minister. He is paid by the Prime Minister. He serves at the pleasure of the Prime Minister. In Ontario the ethics commissioner answers to the legislature. It is fundamentally different.

I had a small case myself and I could not believe that it passed the ethics counsellor's scrutiny. A federal minister in the government personally signed an agreement to pay for a highway in New Brunswick. The other signator on the agreement was another provincial Liberal minister. They both signed this agreement saying that the highway would be 100% paid.

The minister in question, a former minister of transport, was defeated in the election and he went back into the private sector. Immediately the same provincial Liberal minister, who signed the agreement, signed the highway over to the defeated minister. It is amazing to see that the same two signatures are on the agreement, where a provincial minister signs over a highway to be a toll highway to a former federal minister, when the federal minister signed an agreement saying that 100% of the highway would be paid.

I took this to the ethics counsellor and somehow, even though this contradicted the post-employment criteria in every way, he found a way to exonerate the minister involved, even though it did not make any sense to have a minister pay for a project and then end up getting the entire benefit of it in the end. He signed both when the money went out and when the money came in. I could not believe the ethics counsellor found no problem with that even though very strict post-employment criteria were not followed. That is what convinced me that the position of ethics counsellor was pointless.

I can only assume that the ethics counsellor felt that if he criticized the former minister it would be a reflection on his boss. I do not know how he arrived at his finding but it certainly does not make sense. The signatures were on the paper, a federal minister paid for a program and then he got a multi-million dollar benefit from it in the end. I will never understand how that was approved, but it was. I do not believe it would have been approved if the ethics counsellor had been hired by Parliament and answered to Parliament.

Bill C-34 is all smoke and mirrors. It will not change a thing until the ethics counsellor answers to Parliament, not to the Prime Minister. The one thing I do fear is that opposition members will be treated differently than government members. Now that we are all included in this big net that the government has cast over all of us, I think we will be treated differently. If the opposition is accused of something it will not reflect badly on the government. It will probably reflect good on the government.

I believe that we will be treated differently than members of the government if they are accused of exactly the same thing because the boss of the ethics commissioner is still the Prime Minister.

I think it is smoke and mirrors. It is a missed opportunity for the Liberals to keep their promise they made to the Canadian people in 1993. It is a missed opportunity to correct a bad problem. It is a missed opportunity to provide confidence to people, their parliamentarians and their government, but they are not going to have confidence in an ethics commissioner that answers to one person and serves at the pleasure of that one person in Parliament.

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1:10 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Brian Pallister Canadian Alliance Portage—Lisgar, MB

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for the thoughtful comments that he has made today. He has used the phrase “smoke and mirrors” and I guess that is the nature of any legislation that is perceptual in nature. It tends to be accurately labelled as smoke and mirrors because it is dealing with a perceptual problem.

However, the perception of that problem is justified I think and has been justified by the numerous, shall we say, ethical lapses that have been raised not just by members on this side of the House, but in fact by some of the government's own members in reference to the conduct of others who may or may not now be with us in this chamber.

There is no doubt there is a need for this type of legislation. The question is regarding the effectiveness of such legislation. I think that is what the member has been alluding to. He has raised some important questions in his comments, but I would like to question him on one aspect of his comments.

He mentioned the potential, given the fact that the ethics officer would be appointed by the Prime Minister and accountable to the Prime Minister and so on, for an entrenched conflict of interest. Would he elaborate a little on what he means by an entrenched conflict of interest in that respect?

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1:10 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Bill Casey Progressive Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Mr. Speaker, I should have done a little more homework to find out what the ethics commissioner earns a year, but I imagine it is in excess of $200,000 a year probably. He has a very prestigious position. He can only keep that position if he keeps one person happy, and that is the Prime Minister. He will not keep that job because he does not answer to Parliament. He answers to the Prime Minister. He serves only the Prime Minister.

If he were to come to a conclusion that was against the interest of the Prime Minister, the Prime Minister could say he would not renew his contract for whatever reason. It is just human nature that there is a conflict of interest there. He would not look at these accusations objectively because he knows he serves at the pleasure of one person and if he were to offend that one person, he would be gone.

That is why we have seen a consistent array of decisions in defence of inappropriate behaviour, that we all know was inappropriate. The media knows and so do the Canadian people. The ethics commissioner has become a joke because of his decisions when everybody knows that inappropriate behaviour has happened and he condoned it.

There is a conflict of interest because he would answer to one person. A judge cannot work for the accused. That is what would happen here and that is what would happen under Bill C-34. The judge would work for the accused.

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1:10 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, I think the member has raised some interesting questions. It would be easy to simply reflect on a bit of history and make a judgmental call on whether or not what we have now has been constructive and functional for Parliament and for Canadians.

The member knows that the difficulty here is with regard to the ethics of parliamentarians and their role as parliamentarians, and this other group that is the cabinet which has another environment in which it operates. Obviously the issue of cabinet confidentiality comes into play. This new ethics commissioner would be actually reporting to a committee of the House, which is a change under that direction, but I think it does call for a presumption of honesty in that the integrity of individuals being proposed here would be scrutinized by all parties. There is an honest effort here.

Could the member perhaps comment on how we get over this bridge of cabinet confidentiality? Indeed, since cabinet is responsible to the Prime Minister and the Prime Minister is ultimately accountable for everything at the farthest level, how does the member suggest we deal with the problem of cabinet confidentiality, which is probably where the most risk or concern might be, and the issue with regard to members of Parliament and their role?

I would also ask him to reconsider his comment raising the spectre of concern that somehow there would be a bias of this commissioner against any party not in government. We must have the presumption of honesty and anything like that would truly be transparent.

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1:15 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Bill Casey Progressive Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Mr. Speaker, I will start with the last question regarding my suggestion that there might be bias against the party. I only suggest that because of the track record of what has happened.

If members of Parliament were asked or the media or anybody who watched the actions and the decisions of the ethics commissioner, I believe they would say the decisions were biased in favour of the government and they have been ever since the day he was put in that position.

I do not like to suggest that somebody would be partisan or prejudiced in their decisions, but the track record is absolutely there and proven. Anyone who is independent and objective who watches the ethics commissioner will say that the decisions are biased. So why would we not take that one step further and say they will continue to be biased in the future.

However, this could all be eliminated if the ethics commissioner were engaged by Parliament and answered only to Parliament as does the Auditor General. She is not engaged by Parliament but answers to Parliament and does a great job. She does a great job for us.

Regarding cabinet versus MPs, I do not know why the Prime Minister or whoever developed this legislation cast out this big net to deal with MPs because I cannot call the president of the Business Development Bank or anyone else and influence them. I can call and ask them to do something or to have a look at something, but I cannot influence them. I do not hire anyone in a position of power. I do not influence anybody's pay. I do not influence anybody's career but some cabinet ministers do and when they call, it is different than when I call. I do not know why this big net was cast. The only thing I can think of is that this net is to provide a smokescreen to hide the fact that the ethics commissioner is still not going to answer to Parliament.

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1:15 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Rob Merrifield Canadian Alliance Yellowhead, AB

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my hon. colleague for his views on this piece of very important legislation. He described the difference of how it will apply differently to cabinet as well as to all members of the House. I am really confused as to why that is in the bill.

However, I want to ask him some questions with regard to the timing of this legislation. Why, after a decade of promises, do we see it at this time? Does my hon. colleague have any conclusions or any insight as to why he feels it is coming forward now or why it did not come forward before this, or why it would not come forward after the next election?

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1:15 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Bill Casey Progressive Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Mr. Speaker, he is asking me to think like a Liberal and that is a stretch. The promise the Liberals made in 1993 was simple and I think we should repeat it over and over: “The ethics commissioner will report directly to Parliament.”

At that time the Liberals proposed an ethics commissioner to report directly to Parliament. They never did that and they are still not doing it now. But members have to draw their own conclusions of why they waited 10 years to bring a new and enhanced ethics commissioner bill in, even though to me it does not make any difference as long as the ethics commissioner reports to the Prime Minister and serves at the pleasure of the Prime Minister. All the decisions are still not going to be objective and will continue to be a conflict of interest.

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1:15 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Brian Pallister Canadian Alliance Portage—Lisgar, MB

Mr. Speaker, of course I will not ask the member to think like a Liberal; Liberal thinking being an oxymoron. But I will mention that I am pleased again to hear the expressions of concern from the member and I will remark on the fact that it is notable how the concerns of the Canadian Alliance and the Progressive Conservative Party are so similar on this particular bill as on so many others. That is fruitful.

However, I want the member to comment just quickly, based on his comments and my research on this bill. I find one part of this whole proposal offensive and that is the term “independent” being used in the context of a proposal the government is making for an independent ethics commissioner. I see no sign this ethics commissioner will be independent. I would like the member to comment on that aspect of the proposal.

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1:20 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Bill Casey Progressive Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Mr. Speaker, I am sure we agree on a lot of things, but the independence of the ethics commissioner issue is also a problem with Bill C-34. Just imagine again the Auditor General, if she were to deal with matters in the same fashion as the ethics commissioner. We would not have the great reports and the objective reports that she comes forth with. It does not matter whether they are against the Conservatives when we were in power or against the Liberals now. Her office is a great institution because it is independent and the ethics commissioner will never be any good until that position is independent.

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1:20 p.m.

NDP

Judy Wasylycia-Leis NDP Winnipeg North Centre, MB

Mr. Speaker, we are being asked to debate a bill today that is long overdue, many would say 10 years overdue, and after all that time, it is a half a loaf. We are being asked to support a bill that has been desperately needed in this country for at least a decade and falls short in so many ways.

That is the dilemma we are all facing today. Do we support something because it is better than nothing, and try to address this paucity of action, this lack of decisive initiative by the government, or do we send it back to the drawing board and start again? It is a terrible dilemma to be in.

It is an unacceptable position to have to face, given the amount of time the government has had to deal with this matter, and to consider the concerns of parliamentarians and the views of Canadians. However, we are in that position today and we have to make that decision.

My colleagues in the New Democratic Party have wrestled with this decision around Bill C-34 long and hard. We have many concerns with this bill. We have made many amendments that have been rejected and we are disappointed in the process, but in the final analysis we know that we need an ethics commissioner for Parliament that has some independence and is different than the present arrangement. We desperately need that.

When all is said and done, we will have to support this bill. We will have to hold our noses and say that it is too bad that we had this great opportunity, that we had a moment before us where we could have made such a difference and we had to go for second best. We had to lower our expectations and we had to subject ourselves to true Liberal politics in this country today which is to never do the best when the situation presents itself, to always go for the bare minimum and keep the standards low. That is what we are dealing with today.

I want the record to be clear and I want members of other parties to know that while we will end up supporting this bill, we do so reluctantly and we share many of the concerns raised in the House today.

What will it mean if we pass Bill C-34? How will it change the situation and will it endure the test of time? I asked the question earlier of the government House leader about how long this new initiative would likely last given the new regime that is about to take over on the government's side and for good reason. I asked that question because we know that when it comes to the Prime Minister's legacy agenda, the Prime Minister and leader to be of the Liberal Party has said that he is not above tampering with legislation that the House is either in the process of implementing or considering.

We heard the former finance minister say last week, after we had the big debate on same sex marriage that whatever Parliament decides, he might make some necessary changes despite the will of Parliament. We heard the former finance minister also say that whatever this place decides on the decriminalization of marijuana, he might have something else in mind and he might just ignore or disregard what Parliament does.

The logical question is, if we proceed with Bill C-34, no matter what the government House leader says, what guarantees are there that the next Prime Minister of Canada will not find some way to alter or change this legislation, this idea, this important initiative?

It is a legacy agenda for the Prime Minister, that is for sure. The Prime Minister has said that he wants to see the bill through, no matter how flawed, as part of his legacy. Some would ask, what legacy? Others would say, though, that if it is his legacy agenda, given what the former finance minister has said it is doomed anyway. It is probably going to be changed, watered down, weakened and tampered with.

So let us put that in perspective. Let us keep that in mind as we deal with this legislation at a time when it is so difficult for us as parliamentarians to know how to pursue the issues on which Canadians sent us here in the first place, to pursue change and to pursue important public policies, when in fact we are dealing with a two-headed government. We are dealing with a Prime Minister who is intent on accomplishing a legacy agenda that is questionable and which the next prime minister of the day is likely to in fact take apart anyway, so what do we do as parliamentarians?

I guess we do the best we can with what we have. We continue to speak out on behalf of the concerns of Canadians. Today we have that opportunity. We have an opportunity to say to Canadians that we recognize this is vital for democracy in the land, that it is incumbent upon us as parliamentarians to deal with growing cynicism and skepticism among Canadians about the work of parliamentarians and about the influences they have in their day to day lives. It is critical for us to at least validate those concerns and to say it makes absolute sense and we will fight with everything we have to implement those changes and ensure that this place has an ethics commissioner who will in fact work to ensure that parliamentarians are operating at the highest levels of integrity, honesty and decency.

That is really what this is all about it. Others have said it today. This is about restoring faith in democracy. It is about giving people reason to believe that when they participate in elections those who are elected fulfill promises, operate at the highest standards and are not influenced by money and influence and power for the sake of power.

Canadians have asked for this for a long time and the Liberals have promised it for a long time. As others have said, in 1993 there was the red book promise. It is just like the promise for national home care and national pharmacare. It is like all kinds of promises that just sort of disappeared and are gathering dust somewhere. In fact, I would like to hear some day from a Liberal across the way how many of those red book promises in 1993 actually were implemented. I have a feeling that it is not a very high percentage. Let us go back to the 1993 red book and remind members across the way and all Canadians of just what was promised to them.

Liberals in that election said they would:

--appoint an independent Ethics Counsellor to advise both public officials and lobbyists in the day-to-day application of the Code of Conduct for Public Officials.

That is one thing the red book said. It also said that Liberals would enshrine the principles and commitments of political non-interference in public decisions and free access to public office holders and, it stated, the Liberals:

--will develop a Code of Conduct for Public Officials to guide Cabinet ministers, members of Parliament, senators, political staff, and public servants in their dealings with lobbyists.

They were fine words. It was a commitment made for good reason. There were enough examples even back then of influence peddling and of corruption within government. The need for this was clear. Ten years later, we are debating legislation to establish an ethics counsellor, legislation that is flawed, falls short of what is required and does not reflect the will of most parliamentarians.

Probably the red book of 1997 repeated the same promises. I do not know. I do not have that in front of me, but I do know what the Speech from the Throne said in 1997. I was here, newly elected, and naive, I suppose, and a former colleague, in response to the Speech from the Throne, said:

So many of our citizens have become so discouraged with our politicians and our political system that they have chosen not to exercise the basic rights for which our forefathers fought and died. But the sad reality is, and it came across loudly and clearly to me during the election campaign, that many citizens have lost faith in their politicians. Politicians were described to me as not really caring, being in it only for themselves or for the money, being dishonest or full of empty promises....As I stand here today I pledge that I will do my best to put a new face on politics.

That was in response to the throne speech of 1997. Here we are in 2003 debating legislation to establish an ethics counsellor, legislation that is imperfect, flawed and falls short of the mark. Why?

Those were wonderful statements about Canadians' concerns with democracy and faith in politicians, but these statements, by not being acted upon, in fact add to that cynicism and skepticism. There seems to be more disillusionment than ever. It is another set of fine words from politicians, which no one acted on.

There have been attempts in the House over the last decade to get this government off its duff and get it started doing something with respect to the red book promise of 1993 and the throne speech promise of 1997. I do not need to remind members in the House that it was one of my former colleagues as the member for Halifax West who twice brought forward legislation in the House to convince the government to act. He would have been happy if the government had taken the idea and acted on it. It did not have to be his bill. It did not have to be that private member's initiative. But he brought forward legislation that did not go anywhere. I want to quote from Gordon Earle's speech of December 16, 1999. He stated:

This bill is realistic. It is reflected in provincial legislatures and other nations' national assemblies. This code of conduct would raise the level of integrity of our Parliament. This bill is rooted in very practical and legitimate concerns Canadians hold about their Parliament.

He went on to say that he was very disappointed that the issue had not been acted on to that point in December 1999. He talked about everything that Parliament should be, and which we think it is, but he talked about how it fell short because we did not have the framework in place, we did not have the proper legislation in place and we did not have an effective model for an ethics commissioner in place. That was in December 1999. At that time, even though the Liberals made the promise in 1993, the parliamentary secretary stood up in the House in that debate and said, “This is not a priority”. It was not a priority.

We did not give up with the loss of that opportunity. Gordon Earle was unsuccessful in the 2000 election. The cause was taken up by our member for Halifax, then leader of the New Democratic Party, who reintroduced this private member's initiative, which became Bill C-299, with a view to pushing the government, giving government the tools it needed to make an election commitment a reality. We did the homework. We made it possible. We said, “Steal the idea. Run with it.” Did anything happen on that front? No.

Finally, I guess, enough scandals happened, with enough rumblings and speculation about ministerial involvement in the sponsorship contracts. We got more and more examples of lack of ethical standards in the high echelons of the bureaucracy. We were talking earlier about Charles Boyer, but we should also remember that we recently had the case of Paul Cochrane, the former ADM at the Department of Health, and others of his colleagues who are charged with criminal wrongdoing, numerous counts of fraud, corruption and bribery, and who have now experienced charges in this case, which will be heard soon.

There have been all kinds of examples that have caused this issue to stay at the top of the political agenda. Finally, and I guess because of that, the Prime Minister decided in the spring of 2002 to move on this area. He introduced his package around election guidelines, election donations and leadership contributions, a code of conduct for parliamentarians, and some sort of legislation on an ethics commissioner. Was he serious? I think he was. I do not want to question his motives.

However, by that point it really ended up being a band-aid on a pretty big sore, a pretty big open wound, with all kinds of festering happening as more of these scandals came to life, more allegations were made and more Canadians became cynical about this place.

On the one hand one could argue that yes, in fact, the Prime Minister finally, after a decade, was deciding to put into action what he believed in all along. Or one could argue that perhaps he was trying to make life a little difficult for the former finance minister, the member for LaSalle—Émard, who was in the middle of all of this at the time with the concerns around Canadian Steamship Lines, concerns around money going into Barbados, and concerns around numbers of donations he was getting and the lack of a system to disclose those donations. All of that was coming to a head at the same time and perhaps the Prime Minister was really just trying to make life a bit difficult for the member for LaSalle—Émard. Who knows?

Needless to say, we are here today with a less than perfect piece of legislation. It is less than perfect on a number of fronts.

We have heard today particular concerns about the fact that this position is not really independent. The ethics commissioner is to be appointed following a simple majority vote in this place. It is an improvement from the way in which the ethics counsellor now operates; he was appointed by the Prime Minister. But will someone who receives 50% plus one be accountable to all of us and be open to all our suggestions and concerns? Or would that person in effect still be manipulated by the Prime Minister's Office?

What members, at least those on this side of the House, wanted to see was an amendment to the bill such that it would require a two-thirds majority for an ethics commissioner to be accepted by Parliament. A two-thirds majority makes sense, right? It would mean that we would have to involve all parties. It would go beyond the control of the government of the day. It would certainly carry the hope for more independence.

A simple majority vote in the House to support the appointment of an ethics commissioner is simply not effective. That is what members have been saying today and all through this debate: the ethics commissioner must have the trust and support of all members of Parliament to have the confidence of the House of Commons.

That amendment was presented in good faith and with good rationale and good reason. Members of the government side, the Liberal Party, turned down that amendment. Why? Why turn down something that would allow for more independence? That is a major concern.

Let me also reference the concern about the fact we had hoped that this legislation would ensure that the position would be able to incorporate a regime for the disclosure of private interests of MPs and senators and would include their immediate family. We have a couple of concerns on that front.

First, we understand that separate codes of conduct would be established by each of the respective Houses. That clearly begs the question, and there is a lot of history here to justify this, of whether there will be two sets of standards for parliamentarians and senators. Will there be one set for MPs and another set for senators? Are we not talking about basically the same thing, which is a way to ensure that conflict of interest is declared in an open and meaningful way?

Second, we are very concerned that we have not resolved the issue of family members, in particular the question of the spouse of the MP or the Senator, with respect to disclosure provisions and the code of conduct to be developed.

Finally, there is a very legitimate concern that has not been addressed by the bill and that is the public ought to have some way to access the system.

I will just conclude by saying we believe that receiving and investigating complaints of improper behaviour by the public should be part of the regime. The public should be able to make complaints directly to the ethics commissioner not just through a member of Parliament. The public should have some input in this process. It goes without saying that frivolous accusations should not be party to this kind of system.

We are very concerned. We hate being put in the position of accepting something because it is better than nothing. However we want to see an ethics counsellor. We will support the bill but we register vehemently our concerns with the process and the dragging of heels by the Liberals. We urge them to address these concerns immediately.

Parliament of Canada ActGovernment Orders

1:40 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, the member has raised some interesting questions. I have a great deal of respect for the member. We have worked together on many issues.

I have a concern though. If we reconsider the intent of Bill C-34 with regard to the whole ethics question, it really has to do with the integrity of the profession and of this place. I think we all want to work to improve upon that. However the member has raised more examples of allegations, innuendoes, et cetera and sprinkled in the word corruption two or three times in the speech to make certain suggestions. That is inappropriate. If the member has one example of corruption in government, and since corruption is an illegal act, I wish she would advise the House what that example is, because there is not any.

I would like the member to perhaps set that aside. I will accept her concurrence with the fact that there is no matter of corruption since the governments prior to 1993. However there are issues of allegations, innuendo, et cetera that have been referred to the appropriate authorities, whether it be the sponsorship file or whatever. We know corporations are subject to criminal proceedings, and possibly some people were in the employ of the bureaucracy at the time. That is very unfortunate but it is a reflection on us all.

Finally, would the member care to comment on the dilemma I raised with the previous speaker with regard to how we have an ethics commissioner who clearly reports to Parliament, as for instance an officer of Parliament like the Auditor General, but who also can deal with probably the area of most concern and most risk, and that is with regard to cabinet and the issue of cabinet confidentiality? How do we administer that independently within the House of Commons, accessible to the public and be able to access or deal effectively with the whole aspect of cabinet activity, most of which will be subject to cabinet confidentiality rules?

Parliament of Canada ActGovernment Orders

1:40 p.m.

NDP

Judy Wasylycia-Leis NDP Winnipeg North Centre, MB

Mr. Speaker, I would be happy to address both parts of the member's question, starting with comments I made during my speech about perceptions of corruption from the allegations that led the Prime Minister to finally address this issue generally in the spring of 2002.

If the member had listened carefully to my speech, he would know that I made no specific allegations of corruption in this place. It certainly would not be my intention to exaggerate and make unfounded accusations because that does not serve any of us very well.

I was referencing the context in which we find ourselves today and bemoaning the fact that it has taken so long for us to get to some point where as an elected assembly we can deal with some of these concerns and the perceptions that the public has about this place.

It is absolutely critical for us to acknowledge and understand that when the newspapers have headlines about bureaucrats who have been charged with criminal wrongdoing and numerous counts of fraud and bribery it impacts on all of us. It helps set the context and makes it more urgent than ever that we act expeditiously and in good faith with the best possible legislative framework for dealing with our own affairs as members of Parliament.

The member should know that I was speculating on why the Prime Minister moved on this as part of his legacy agenda and whether it was about putting ethics first or putting the former finance minister in a difficult spot. I said at that time it was about the present government trying to put a band-aid over incidents involving RCMP investigations and perceptions of corruption in cabinet. A government in an ethical sense would have done this back in 1993.

I say to the member that the allegations which have resurfaced around the sponsorship program should be enough for us to recognize that we have to act on this and we have to act on our own affairs and do so with the highest possible standards.

We have said this past week that the new speculation around money that has been involved in these sponsorship contracts finding their ways into Liberal Party coffers has to be enough to call for a public inquiry and should be enough for the government to say to Alfonso Gagliano in Denmark that his job is done and he is fired.

We have to start taking decisive action where allegations are made, where evidence is forthcoming and where public perception affected.

I am not casting aspersions on anyone. I am not trying to exaggerate the situation. I am trying to make the case for why this proposed legislation is urgent, why we are all disappointed with the shortcomings in the bill and why the Liberals could have done more.

My question for the member is this. Why did he and his colleagues not support the amendment at committee to require a two-thirds majority with respect to the appointment of the ethics commissioner? The member wants to know how can we protect cabinet and how can we do this. I say to him that we have a basic issue at hand which is let us have clear rules in place and a proper appointment process so there is no tainting of the position and let us get on with the job, whether we are a cabinet minister or a backbencher, so people have declared their interests and we have an ethics commissioner who is independent to investigate and rule on any allegations.

Until we can get an the answer on the question of why the government has refused to move beyond a 50% plus one appointment process, we will be unable to address the member's question about cabinet confidentiality.

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1:45 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Brian Pallister Canadian Alliance Portage—Lisgar, MB

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member whose sincerity and enthusiasm I admire and have for a long time. I know many of the points she has articulated today are points that we share in the Alliance. We have made those points in debate on this bill and will continue to do so.

The member alluded to this as being a legacy piece of legislation. That is a fair observation. There is an attempt here to throw a bandage to a person who has been punched and bloodied pretty much over the last 10 years by the Prime Minister. It is about that trivial an attempt. It is a cosmetic attempt to try to patch up the credibility of a government that has had great difficulty in behaving credibly.

The member opposite, in defending the government on this issue, asked a question about specific examples. I could go on at much more length than I have time for today. However, for example, when a government pursues trumped up charges against the preceding prime minister, when it cancels contracts solely on the basis of a partisan initiative, when it cancels whether it be helicopters or Pearson Airport contracts, it costs taxpayers millions of dollars.

What this does is it calls into question not only its management ability, and certainly that would be in question, but it also calls into question its own ethics. It is under the Prime Minister that these things have happened.

Management competence versus ethics we could get into when they brush up against one another, which is the predominant problem, the management inability of the government or its ethical lapses. However the fact remains that this is a government that has been plagued by both of those problems.

Bill C-34 will not address satisfactorily the independent promise it made to affix an independent officer, an independent ethics commissioner, under the 1993 red book authored by the new prime minister, the member for LaSalle—Émard. If we expect a fresh face and a fresh approach, I do not think we will get one from that member because after all that is a book of unfulfilled promises.

Would the member like to elaborate a little more on some of the unfulfilled promises of that book in terms of the promises it made to improve the lives of Canadians, those less fortunate, those have not Canadians? I would like her to elaborate a little on that aspect of the unfulfilled promises of that book and how that might relate to a better role for an ethics commissioner who would be truly independent in this Parliament.

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1:50 p.m.

NDP

Judy Wasylycia-Leis NDP Winnipeg North Centre, MB

Mr. Speaker, I wish to thank the Alliance member from Manitoba for his question. I share his concerns about this bill in terms of that whole issue around independence and objective analysis.

We as a party will probably support the bill despite our concerns. We will do so holding our nose. We share the concerns of the Alliance.

It is absolutely critical to understand this in terms of a promise that has largely remained unfulfilled. I think the red book was very clear about having an independent ethics commissioner, about having a system of full disclosure for cabinet ministers and about finding a way to deal with some glaring problems in the bureaucracy.

The government has tried to glaze over its commitment. I think Canadians see the difference. I am glad to see opposition members working together to try to expose this development and to do the best we can in these difficult circumstances.

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1:50 p.m.

Liberal

John Bryden Liberal Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to have this opportunity to draw the attention of the House to an aspect of this legislation that might be otherwise overlooked. It is a very important aspect of the legislation and one that I, because of my particular interests I suppose, am especially qualified to comment on, or at least I am the one most likely to notice and that is because of my interest in issues pertaining to access to information and privacy.

I draw the attention of the House to section 72.06(a) and (b). This section of the act describes the functions of the ethics commissioner in relation to public office holders. What we have in this section is a definition of public office holder that includes a minister of the Crown, a minister of state or a parliamentary secretary, which is fine, and in (b) even more significantly a person, other than a public servant, who works on behalf of a minister of the Crown or a minister of state.

Members of the House will recall that about a year ago there was quite a controversy involving the expense accounts of an exempt staff member of one of the ministers. The Treasury Board had ruled that the exempt staff of ministers were not public office holders. This was a fairly longstanding definition, or interpretation I should say.

Actually I have the Treasury Board analysis. It was actually a guideline, guideline 78 that was released in March 2001. It advised with respect to section 3(j) of the Privacy Act that ministers and their exempt staff are not deemed to be officers and employees of government institutions and as such are not covered by section 3.

When ministers take office they certainly have staff that are provided to them by the bureaucracy, by the public service, but they also have a certain number of employees who are their direct aids that act as intermediaries between the minister and the bureaucracy, sometimes as intermediaries with the media. Sometimes they also look after some of the ministers' politically partisan activities.

The problem is that as a result of this interpretation, this type of individual was not covered by the Access to Information Act. This exploded into something of a controversy when it was discovered, quite to everyone's surprise, that access to information requests made to this type of staff of ministers were being denied and were being denied as a result of this guideline set out by Treasury Board.

What is so interesting about the section I alluded to in Bill C-34 is the good news is that the government has acted on that controversy. We already knew that the government had acted on that controversy because after the hearings before the public accounts committee, even though it became very clear as a result of the testimony that this was a valid interpretation that ministers' staff were not covered by the Access to Information Act, there was a directive issued, I believe by the Prime Minister's office, to ministers to exercise their discretion and endeavour to ensure that type of information was released.

Thus we have the news of the day now where the staff of certain other ministers are receiving a certain amount of media coverage because of--I do not know how to describe it--elaborate spending, shall we say. I do not want to suggest excessive because I do not want to make a judgment, but we have seen in the news a number of expense account stories. That arises directly out of the public accounts activities and the questions raised about ministerial exempt staff.

As I say, the really good news is that obviously in Bill C-34 the government has received the message from the backbench, has received the message from the public accounts committee and has actually put into this legislation that a public office holder is indeed a minister, as indeed are the staff that the ministers hire. That is good news.

It means that the ethics commissioner will be part of a package of transparency that looks at not just how people spend money in departments, but how they deport themselves. I think it is a very good thing that the government has seen fit to put that actually in the legislation.

Parliament of Canada ActGovernment Orders

1:55 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The hon. member for Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot would have approximately 15 minutes remaining should he wish to continue his intervention after question period.

The House will proceed with members' statements. The hon. member for Saint-Lambert.

The EnvironmentStatements by Members

1:55 p.m.

Liberal

Yolande Thibeault Liberal Saint-Lambert, QC

Mr. Speaker, today, I am pleased to note that today, like more than 1,300 other cities around the world, Montreal will close a major part of its downtown to motorists. The slogan for this day is “Car Free Day”.

The first day of this kind was held in Paris in 1998. The aim of “Car Free Day” is to explore alternative modes of transportation to single-occupant vehicle usage and to promote joint reflection on possible solutions for improving quality of life in large cities.

Under the Kyoto protocol adopted in December 1997, Canada's commitment was to reduce greenhouse gas emissions to 6% below 1990 levels by 2012. We all know that raising awareness of the problem of greenhouse gases is very important.

HighwaysStatements by Members

2 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Chuck Strahl Canadian Alliance Fraser Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, this past Saturday I took part in a cavalcade of four wheel drive vehicles that made the journey from Agassiz to Pemberton along the west side of Harrison Lake, past Port Douglas and Lillooet Lake. The purpose of the trip was to publicize the exciting potential of widening the existing forestry roads into a secondary highway.

The mayors of Agassiz and Pemberton, MLA Barry Penner, and a group of experts from the provincial government were there as well. Entrepreneurs and business advocates made the journey too. All of us were impressed with the possibilities that would go hand in hand with increased accessibility.

There were also representatives from some of the native bands that live along the route. While development could also provide economic opportunities for them, their needs are more basic. Right now some of these bands must live without electricity and phones, without access to education and medical care, even without year-round road access. The things we take for granted are simply unavailable to them.

I urge the ministers of Indian affairs, federal infrastructure and economic development to listen closely to local residents and representatives to see what role the federal government could play once the provincial government tables a report on this alternate route as early as October of this year.

Canadian ForcesStatements by Members

2 p.m.

Liberal

Christian Jobin Liberal Lévis-Et-Chutes-De-La-Chaudière, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am please to rise in this House today to acknowledge, once again, the quality of our Canadian Forces.

Nearly 2,000 of our soldiers are currently deployed in Afghanistan to fight terrorism and to ensure peace and security. Yesterday in Kabul, they showed that their skills exceed combat excellence.

Canadian paratroopers defused a delicate situation near the Afghan capital by using persuasion and diplomacy.

Locals had threatened to use force against refugees if they did not abandon their camp, which was too close to two of the local community's cemeteries.

Owing to the quality of their training and Canada's reputation around the world, our paratroopers prevented the start of another conflict in a very volatile country.

We are all very proud of our armed forces and grateful for their work.