House of Commons Hansard #127 of the 37th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was benefits.

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Parliament of Canada ActGovernment Orders

11:55 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Monte Solberg Canadian Alliance Medicine Hat, AB

Mr. Speaker, I want to address one thing that my colleague said a minute ago in his speech.

He seemed to indicate that his party, or certainly members of his party, never promised to eliminate the GST. Of course we know that the deputy prime minister at the time, the member for Hamilton East, who is now the Minister of Canadian Heritage and who is running for the Liberal leadership too, actually resigned over that issue because she had in fact said that the GST would be eliminated and then had to admit that they never had any intention of doing that. I just wanted to point that out to my friend.

In the newspapers today he has been accused of using his parliamentary frank to distribute election literature for a provincial Liberal candidate. Perhaps under the rules that issue is not addressed, but I think most right thinking Canadians would agree that is not something that should be done with one's parliamentary frank.

I want to know from the member who just spoke if he is going to justify that use of taxpayers' money for something that is blatantly political. Does he consider that to be an ethical thing?

Parliament of Canada ActGovernment Orders

Noon

Liberal

John Cannis Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am so pleased. I actually led my hon. colleague into asking me this question and I am glad he picked up the bait.

I will answer the first question. The member from Hamilton indeed said we would eliminate the GST, I do agree with him. But she also did the honourable thing and resigned, went back to the people and they voted her in again. The member knows that very well.

On this issue, as I set the trap for my hon. colleague to ask me the question, it is exactly what I have been talking about all along. If they did their research, if they looked into the matter, they would know that I had spoken to the Speaker of the House and the Clerk of the House. I as an experienced parliamentarian would never, but never, abuse my privileges.

If he had done his homework, the member would not have had the gall to stand today and ask that question. He is feeding misinformation to Canadians through that tube. If he knew exactly what the package was that I mailed out, the Speaker saw the package, the Clerk saw the package and they gave me the go ahead and said that I did nothing wrong. I have no hesitation in facing the media, in facing the House, to answer the questions, as I did. I would be glad to at any time.

I am very happy he asked me the question. I did not abuse my member's privileges.

Parliament of Canada ActGovernment Orders

Noon

Canadian Alliance

Monte Solberg Canadian Alliance Medicine Hat, AB

Mr. Speaker, indeed the member is very clever and shows his great cunning in drawing me into his trap, but my question was, would the member do it again?

I am not asking if he got permission from the Speaker. I am not asking whether or not he found a rule that allowed him to do that. I am asking whether or not he considers it an ethical thing to do. Given the response that he has seen from the media, from his own colleagues, from his constituents, would he do that again?

Parliament of Canada ActGovernment Orders

Noon

Liberal

John Cannis Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, the member is being totally inaccurate again when he says my colleagues, my constituents. The only people who commented were two members from the Alliance Party. I spoke to Mr. Rodgers who said, “There is really no story, but I am going to do something”.

In answer to his direct question of would I do it again, I would do as much as they would do, as long as we are within the guidelines of the House and our privileges. That is what we are entitled to. We would not go beyond the guidelines set before us, and that is exactly what happened here.

Parliament of Canada ActGovernment Orders

Noon

Canadian Alliance

Rahim Jaffer Canadian Alliance Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Mr. Speaker, I know our hon. colleague who just spoke mentioned how he was driven to his feet given some of the opposition members' statements. I do not think this debate would have been the same without his masterful intervention.

I would like him to address something specifically pertaining to this bill that we are debating in the House. We have asked over and over again, and he talked quite elaborately about integrity, about bringing trust back into the House and the confidence of Canadians. What does he specifically have against having an independent committee make a potential appointment that would come back to this place for a vote? What does he have against having an independent committee making that sort of recommendation which then would be brought to the House? Why is he so afraid of taking away that power from the Prime Minister? Maybe he could explain that to us.

Parliament of Canada ActGovernment Orders

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

John Cannis Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for the question. I will answer it, but I think this whole debate need not even happen because it is about “bringing trust back into the House”. That is what this is all about.

Was there never any trust in the House? This is what I am so upset about. We, and I am including myself, are portraying that the House cannot be trusted.

Surely to God if we care about this nation, and I know you do--

Parliament of Canada ActGovernment Orders

12:05 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Order, please. I would encourage the member to use the word “we” as opposed to “you”, and make all interventions through the Chair, please.

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12:05 p.m.

Liberal

John Cannis Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON

I just got a little bit emotional, Mr. Speaker. I know that colleagues, and I speak for them and all members in the House, are here because as I said earlier, we care.

When we talk about bringing trust back into the House, we are sending the message that none of us can be trusted. Surely that is not the case, as I said earlier. There is nothing that I am afraid of. We can have 10 ethics counsellors. I do not have a problem with that and I never did have a problem with that. No matter who sits in the House on whichever side, we should not be afraid to have one or five ethics counsellors with whatever power we give to them. He who has concern should not be sitting in the House.

All I ask, and I know members opposite can appreciate that as much as we can, is that we do the best we can. I know it is politics and we have to put up a certain portrayal to our constituents and the optics et cetera. I fully appreciate that; that will not go away. But there are some sensitive moments where we must not add fuel to the fire.

Canadians have told me and I know they have told other members repeatedly because we talked about the provinces. They have told us to come together, the municipalities, the provinces and the federal government. They have told us to get our act together. Whether we come from the west, Ontario or Quebec, we have heard it all over the country. We have been told to just get our act together. If there is a problem, fix it and stop squabbling.

We will continue to squabble if we talk about bringing trust back into the House. Trust was never lost in the House. We portray that trust was lost and that is not the case.

Parliament of Canada ActGovernment Orders

12:05 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Ken Epp Canadian Alliance Elk Island, AB

Mr. Speaker, I listened to the intervention by the member. He keeps talking about building trust and restoring the confidence of Canadians in their government, and indeed in Parliament.

I agree with him on that because that is the goal. I have been on this so-called ethics portfolio for our party for not quite 10 years. October 25 will be the anniversary of our first election in 1993.

Originally it was brought in because the government, the Liberals who won the wonderful election in 1993, promised in the red book to have an independent ethics counsellor. The reason they promised it was because of perceived, or real, breaches of ethical behaviour in the previous government.

Now, 10 years later, the government is finally coming up with a bill that proposes to have an independent ethics commissioner and yet, when we look at it, we see that it is in word only. In fact, the counsellor would still be appointed by the Prime Minister.

I believe that to restore confidence the Canadian people must see that there is a watchdog on Parliament and the ethics in here, who is detached from the Prime Minister so that his or her word can be totally trusted.

I would like the member to comment on that part of the issue.

Parliament of Canada ActGovernment Orders

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

John Cannis Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, there have always been watchdogs on Parliament. Members know that, whether it is the RCMP or other bodies. When those bodies have been asked to look into certain situations, they have and when they come back with rulings that the opposition is not happy with, the cacophony continues.

We did talk about an ethics counsellor in 1993. That did happen. Today the bar has been raised. Why? It is because of certain allegations. As I said before, in our country, the presumption of innocence is there, but what we have failed to do here is to be a little bit more transparent in this entire initiative.

The way that we are portraying it to Canadians is that during these 10 years there has been so much mismanagement, so much undermining, and so many little deals going on that now we need an independent person.

We are all accountable. My colleagues all know we are accountable, whether it is the franking system we use, the comments we make outside or whether it is how we use our budgets. We are accountable. There is a system in place. Let us not be portrayed to Canadians as unaccountable because we are.

The people to whom we are accountable inevitably are the taxpayers and voters. At the end of the day, let them judge the parties by marking their X and saying that, yes, they approve of them, yes, they are accountable or yes they are ethical. Only they can judge us.

Parliament of Canada ActGovernment Orders

12:10 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Before the resumption of debate, I would like to inform the House that we will now move into the next stage of our debate on this particular important matter. Members will have 10 minutes to make their remarks without the possibility of questions or comments.

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Edmonton--Strathcona.

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12:10 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Rahim Jaffer Canadian Alliance Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Mr. Speaker, it gives me pleasure to address this particular bill. As we all know, Bill C-34, an act to amend the Parliament of Canada Act, would appoint an ethics commissioner and a Senate ethics officer.

It frustrates me, as I am sure you as well Mr. Speaker, when we hear members like the previous speaker spout off about things that they feel so passionate about. However, when it actually comes down to demonstrating a commitment to that by making changes in this particular place which would reflect that, which would strengthen our institution of democracy and give more accountability and transparency, which were the words that the member used himself, they refuse to make any commitments. They refuse to vote for changes that would improve the institution of Parliament and improve the ability for Canadians to have a voice in this particular place.

This ethics bill is interesting. What is the reason that we actually have to debate instituting a position of an ethics commissioner in this place? A reflection of the last 10 years will paint a stark picture and give reasons why in fact we are debating this sort of legislation.

Elected officials are held in a higher regard. There should not be questions of conflict of interest. There should not be ethical questions about the ability of ministers to have any influence in their own dealings when they are sitting in those particular departments, but in fact we are debating those very problems.

It is a reflection, unfortunately, of the problems we have seen time and time again from the current government. It started from the top and spread out in an incredible way to all parts of this particular government. This is one of the reasons that this whole debate about the need for an ethics commissioner has come about.

It was not so long ago that I was a student at the University of Ottawa studying political science and economics. I was here and had the fortune of working for a member of Parliament. At that time it was a Liberal MP who currently sits in the House. We often joke about that. But I remember during that time, the Liberals were in opposition and there were many things being debated because it was just before they were going to form the government.

I remember a real void in that particular group. There were a few MPs who really talked passionately about changing this place when they were in opposition, but I started to see a stark difference as that election campaign began between the things that were being said and where the party was going once it actually formed the government. I really lost hope.

Being a first generation Canadian--my family came here as refugees when I was just a baby--the idea of freedom and democracy has always meant a lot to my family, especially my father who taught me about that. That was what inspired me to get involved in politics at a younger age.

I remember that during that transition period I was so disappointed with what I actually saw taking place with the commitment to freedom and democracy, and how to strengthen those principles. It drove me far away from the interest in politics, as someone who came here in an idealistic way and who wanted to get involved in creating a stronger institution for the people. It drove me away from wanting to be involved here because I saw no commitment to that sort of change. Instead, I embraced initially this new movement which, being a new movement, had a lot of challenges, but it talked about bringing those sort of values to Parliament, especially the idea of parliamentary reform.

That is one of the reasons I joined the Reform Party and got involved along with many younger colleagues who got involved in the early 90s. Later we had an impact on that particular process and that particular thinking, and could even get involved in elected office, which is rare to see in many other traditional parties.

However, one the reasons I did get involved, which I mentioned and why I switched from the Liberal Party, was because of the fact that I saw a real void and a lack of commitment to that parliamentary reform. Now the Liberals talk about it in the same way they talk about democratic deficits and strengthening institutions of Parliament, but when it comes down to voting for change, they only go with half measures.

This is a particular example of that when we look at the bill that we are debating, Bill C-34. The amendment deserves merit and deserves some serious debate, which we are not getting from this particular government. The amendment has been put forward because we support the government in its effort to improve Parliament, but again its measures are only half steps.

In trying to improve this bill we would adopt the amendment by having “an all party committee of the House of Commons search for those persons who would be most suitably qualified and fit to hold the office of Ethics Commissioner”. Then the said committee would recommend to the House of Commons the name of the person to hold that particular office. What would be wrong with taking that bit of power away from the Prime Minister?

Currently, the Prime Minister controls almost every aspect of this House. When we go to this particular nomination, it will be appointed by the Prime Minister and then put to the House for a vote. As we have seen in many votes in the past, Liberal members will be whipped to follow the Prime Minister's choice and this particular ethics counsellor will not be independent of Parliament to judge the actions of members of Parliament and their dealings. That person would, in essence, become a lapdog for the Prime Minister.

This minor amendment, that has such profound effects on the way this position would be installed, would seem to me to be something that the government would embrace. What does it fear? What does it have to lose to take that bit of power away from the Prime Minister? Its own backbenchers complain about the fact that they have no say once they come to this particular place.

This slight amendment would strengthen the ability for this House to have more transparency as the previous member talked about. It would allow an independent ethics counsellor to review certain complaints that may be brought forward by members of Parliament against other individuals and report independently of the Prime Minister. It would add a bit of democracy to this place, a bit of freedom that unfortunately continues to be eroded by a government that wants to hang on to power and a Prime Minister on his way out who still does not want to relinquish any of those particular things that would provide effective checks and balances in this place.

That is something that totally amazes us. We know that in the recent past we saw a rift in that particular government when we in the official opposition put forward a motion dealing with committee chairs being selected by secret ballot. We did not want our committees whipped either because, let us face it, committees are supposed to be an independent wing of Parliament. They are supposed to be independent from the House, independent from the government, and they are supposed to study issues and make legislation better. What better way to do it if we could have the chairs of those committees selected by member of Parliaments who they thought were the best candidates for those jobs.

Ultimately it was a tough vote for the government because of the soon to be Prime Minister who has talked about this democratic deficit. There was a huge rift in that particular government when that vote came to the House and in fact that was a small victory for democracy, not for the opposition and not for our goals but for democracy and for Canadians.

Here is a chance for that same spirit to continue, where we could have true transparency by having an independent ethics commissioner chosen by a committee that would select the best possible person for the job and make the recommendation to Parliament.

I want to briefly reflect on the amendment that has been put forward by the NDP. It is something that we did in fact support. We would not be afraid of having the requirement of a two-thirds majority in this place for the appointment of an ethics commissioner. As my hon. colleague from Elk Island had mentioned, there were some complications as they pertained to the Constitution.

On that matter, anything that we could do in this place to evoke change and improve the conditions of this institution, of course, we would support. We want to see Parliament strengthened, we want to see ministers behave in the appropriate manner, and we want Canadians to have the confidence in this place that they should have.

We only wish that instead of talking the talk, the government would actually take the steps necessary to put these sorts of things in place and strengthen the institution's democracy. It is with a great sense of sadness that, unfortunately, we have to debate legislation like this because of the performance of this particular government over the last number of years.

Parliament of Canada ActGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Is the House ready for the question?

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12:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

Question.

Parliament of Canada ActGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The question is on the amendment. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the amendment?

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12:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

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12:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

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12:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

All those in favour of the amendment will please say yea.

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12:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

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12:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

All those opposed will please say nay.

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12:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

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12:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

Parliament of Canada ActGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Call in the members.

Therefore, the vote on the amendment is deferred until Monday at the end of Government Orders.

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12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Jacques Saada Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Mr. Speaker, I think you would find unanimous consent in the House to further defer the vote until Tuesday afternoon, at the end of Government Orders.

Parliament of Canada ActGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Is that agreed?