House of Commons Hansard #27 of the 38th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was food.

Topics

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11 a.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

Madam Speaker, I think if there is any ambiguity it is along the lines of “why did we not ban it last year?”. I think what we are saying is that now we need the work of the task force to find out what is the right answer in terms of regulation or presenting legislation that would effectively eliminate to the lowest possible level.

I think we want the work of the task force and the parliamentary committee to help us with exactly what that would be. Some of what I was saying is that this is the reason we did not do it last week. We have been working to find out what really is the right answer on these things and also to put in place a strategy even if the industry had to find other products such that people are not immediately getting the lard out in order to fry their eggs.

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11:05 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Madam Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of State for Public Health.

I will repeat to the minister that studies conducted in recent years by the department led by her colleague at sports, the hon. member for Vancouver Quadra, show a steady increase in the number of youths between the ages of 7 and 14 who are obese. I will not get into what happens past 14, because the situation becomes practically irreversible: the individual remains obese and cannot get rid of the fat put on between the ages of 7 and 14. This means that we have a population of young Canadians, young Quebeckers and young people from other provinces who are increasingly fat.

I admit that I have tried to read the labels on various food, but the print is so small. I will not say that it is like trying to read the small print they flash for 10 seconds about interest rates in television ads for cars. We just cannot decipher the information on food labels.

I would like the minister to tell me whether her department could not launch an information campaign to explain what trans fats are and what medium and long term effects besides obesity they have on the human body? It would be particularly important to stress that there may be healthier alternatives.

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11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

Madam Speaker, I understand and I understand the hon. member's concerns about the obesity epidemic, especially among our young people.

I also think the labels are way too small. I am interested, as we move on this labelling, in looking at some of the things being done in other countries, such as red light, green light and amber light. There may be some very serious ways that we can look at in explaining to people that this is a food that is decadent, this is a food that is healthier and this is a food that is really healthy, in a way that actually helps people make better choices.

I also am a bit obsessed myself about the idea that people might want to have the odd chocolate bar but just need to know that maybe they should run for 20 minutes if they eat it. I think there is the idea that maybe Canadians do not know what a calorie is and that we can do a much better job of explaining what are healthy choices as opposed to just banning everything. We want people to be able to make better choices.

As we look forward at not only a healthy living strategy in this country but at this fabulous new idea of sharing best practices in school health across this country, there is a consortium that the health ministers have agreed to. We are now working together with ministers of health and education and their deputies, who now have come together to look at what a school program would look like for Canada. They are looking at how, between the provinces and territories, we steal the good ideas that are working around the country so that we can actually move forward on this huge opportunity within our school system to teach kids how to make healthy choices.

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11:10 a.m.

West Nova Nova Scotia

Liberal

Robert Thibault LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Health

Madam Speaker, I would first like to congratulate the member for Winnipeg Centre on his motion calling for effective elimination of trans fats and some cooperation with industry, the Heart and Stroke Foundation, the food preparation industry and the agriculture industry. I think all of these are very important and it is important that we share the goal. I think where we might get a bit lost in language is how we achieve that goal. I congratulate the member for having negotiated and worked on wording that is acceptable to most parties.

I will ask this of the minister of state. Is it not true that if we went to immediate legislated elimination, we might eliminate some products that are healthy to humans, such as omega-3 or omega-6 fatty acids, or worse yet, we might move to the replacement of these trans fats by other products that might still be acceptable legally but might actually be worse for human consumption?

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11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

Indeed, Madam Speaker, what is evident is that we want to come together with a real strategy on what is practical, what is doable and what will not have unintended consequences. Then we want a timeframe, the “when”, that is doable and practical. Then we want the “how”, which means a real strategy to get the health literacy and civic literacy out there in terms of making choices.

I agree with the member. What has been our concern is to not have those unintended consequences that the member spoke of and to allow the industry to be innovative and creative enough to come up with other choices within the guidelines the task force sets.

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11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Steven Fletcher Conservative Charleswood—St. James, MB

Madam Speaker, I would like to share my time with the member for Saskatoon—Wanuskewin.

As some members may be aware, I am the senior health critic for the Conservative Party. Obviously the health care of Canadians is number one on my priority list, as it is for the Conservative Party of Canada.

I congratulate the member for Winnipeg Centre for bringing this motion before Parliament. He has helped increase public awareness about the harm that trans fats do to Canadians. Certainly I have learned a lot since this was brought to the fore.

It has been proven that trans fats are detrimental to human health. It is indisputable. With all the scientists I have come across it is not debated. Even much of the food industry does not debate the negative health effects that trans fats have on people. Many premature deaths could be averted by decreasing trans fats in the food system.

Therefore, I endorse the spirit of the motion. Although I may not agree with the proceedings afterward in the legislation, I think the intent of bringing together the stakeholders, including the Heart and Stroke Foundation, is important. We need to work as a government and as a people to reduce heart disease that trans fats cause. However, there are other diseases that trans fats lead to.

In other countries, such as Denmark, trans fats have essentially been banned. The United States of America has taken regulatory action against trans fats by limiting the upper and lower levels allowed in food products. People who consume products need to take some additional responsibility in how and what they consume.

Certainly the Conservative Party of Canada supports Canadians taking responsibility for their own health. We also recognize that sometimes the government has a role in providing a safe and healthy environment for the public.

Industry must also play a major role in developing new alternatives to the consumption of trans fats. It is very important that we include industry in the multi-stakeholder task force. After all, there could be some economic and practical implications if we are not responsible in the process by which we eliminate trans fats.

Some companies have been successful in this area. New York Fries has eliminated trans fats. Voortman cookies, Pepperidge Farm, High Liner Foods, Dare Foods and Kraft Foods have all endeavoured either to have trans fat free food or have declared their intention to become trans fat free in a reasonable amount of time.

There are products being developed or which apparently exist that can help eliminate trans fats. In the future we will have very minimal trans fats in the food supply. The question is how fast will this happen and how much of a role should government play?

Some people will argue that people have a choice and if they want to have trans fats, they should be able to have trans fats. This is similar to alcohol and tobacco. There are obviously major health effects with those products. I would like to point out to members that those products are restricted to people over the age of 18. Trans fats are very easily accessible by our children. They are found everywhere. The onus is on parents and the government to ensure that children are protected, which is another reason I support the intention of this motion.

At the end of the day if we need to make a choice between the health of people or the shelf life of people versus the shelf life of doughnuts, the Conservative Party of Canada will always support the shelf life of people. That also goes to long term strategy.

The health minister talks about the sustainability of our health care system. It is only sustainable if we make proper decisions right now for the long term health of Canadians. Certainly by reducing trans fats I think there would be significant cost savings to the health care system in the future, combined with other preventive and proactive measures that we could undertake to make sure that the health care system will deal with things that are not preventable. Certainly trans fats cause a lot of existing diseases, and they could cause more diseases in the future.

The Conservative Party is supportive of the health of Canadians. Provided that the implementation of something of this nature is done with the consent of industry, members will be supportive of at least the intent. There is some ambiguity about what the legislation may hold and therefore there would be some reservations on that. Again it has to be done responsibly.

In conclusion, again I would like to thank the member for Winnipeg Centre. He and I worked quite closely on the wording of the motion. I am very thankful for the opportunity for members of parties who do not often see eye to eye to work together for the betterment of all Canadians.

I look forward to a day when I can eat my favourite foods without worrying about the trans fats in them. I should tell the House that I am guilty of eating a lot of trans fats, knowingly and unknowingly. The problem is that all too often we eat these things without knowing it. Proper labelling can help that but it does not exist in every case.

There are going to be diverse points of view in the House. We all want the same end but how do we get there? Should government play a role or should it not? The spirit of the motion is something which I can support. As long as the stakeholders include industry and Health Canada, and that their recommendations are taken seriously, we can all look forward to a healthier Canada as we move forward into the future.

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11:20 a.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Madam Speaker, I will be brief to allow others to pose questions.

I rise to thank the member and pay tribute to the contribution that the member for Charleswood St. James—Assiniboia made not only in the composition of the motion we are debating today, but on the broader issue of how to eliminate those harmful trans fats from our food supply. I can safely say that we did see the merits in most of the recommendations the hon. member made in the drafting of the motion and which were added to the motion. There was a very real recognition of the factor, which we very much appreciated at the front end, but we also recognize that there was a willingness to add to it and to not let partisan politics interfere with an issue as critical as the public health and well-being of a whole generation of children.

Having said that, I would like to nail him down a little bit on how his party plans on treating the motion. I understand his personal commitment to the issue, but could he tell us if the Conservative Party of Canada recognizes there is a legitimate role for the government to play in regulating food to make sure that the contents of food products are safe?

Could he also comment on labelling? Does he accept our point of view that labelling alone is probably not adequate to reduce in any quantifiable way the intake of trans fats by Canadian citizens?

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11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Steven Fletcher Conservative Charleswood—St. James, MB

Madam Speaker, the government already plays a role in the safety of food, provincially and federally. There are inspections to make sure foods are prepared properly and to make sure we do not find arsenic in our water supply, things of that nature. The government does play a role, or has in the past, to ensure that products are safe for consumption.

Having said that, governments are the ones which allowed trans fats to be introduced in the first place, with good intentions I think. They wanted to get rid of the saturated fats and so on, but little did we know at the time the problems that trans fats would cause.

Governments, sometimes with the best intentions, screw things up. In many cases the marketplace is able to do a better job in regulating the industries which produce the products for the market. The product manufacturers that come up with trans fat free products will encounter significant advantages over their competition. That should not be overlooked. There is definitely a role for the government and industry to play in this debate and debates of a similar nature.

I can say that the Conservative Party supports healthy living for Canadians and that its MPs represent the views of their constituents. When the Conservative Party is approached with the vote next week, its members will carefully consider the views of their constituents and will vote according to the will of the people. We are here to represent the constituents in Ottawa, not represent Ottawa to the constituents.

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11:25 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Hon. Jean Augustine)

We will have a very brief question and answer, there only being about 15 seconds left. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Health.

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11:25 a.m.

West Nova Nova Scotia

Liberal

Robert Thibault LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Health

Madam Speaker, I have a hard time yawning in 15 seconds, however, I want to congratulate the member on his speech. I particularly liked the part where he talked about the shelf life of Canadians as opposed to doughnuts, favouring the Canadians. I know him to be a man of strong moral values and know he will not be corrupted by the doughnut lobby.

I understand the member's point that he is not prepared to commit to the legislation, but that is the point of the motion, that we always look at any way we can resolve the issue and then look at what the remedies might be afterwards. Does the member agree?

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11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Steven Fletcher Conservative Charleswood—St. James, MB

Madam Speaker, unlike other political parties, the Conservative Party believes that members are here because they were elected by the people and they should represent the people who elected them. The Conservative Party will do what is in the best interests of Canadians and ensure that Canadians remain healthy.

The goals are the same but how we get there is different. The market forces are very powerful and industry has to be sensitive to that. It will play a major role in how this issue is finally resolved. Labelling and other methods will help people in making their decision.

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11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Maurice Vellacott Conservative Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK

Madam Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to debate something that is very crucial and very valuable for us as a society today. I appreciate the lead that our health critic has taken with regard to this matter, which is a very sensible and reasoned position.

As has already been stated, the Conservative Party of Canada, with reference to the member across the way who asked a question with respect to this, certainly supports Canadians taking responsibility for their own health but we recognize the role that government has in providing a safe and healthy environment for the public. It is getting those two things in appropriate balance in these kinds of matters before us today.

As has amply been pointed out by my colleague and others, trans fats have no known health benefits. It is as clear as that. Perhaps because of shelf life and those kinds of things, but in terms of health benefits there are none. No one has even argued or attempted to argue that kind of a case.

It is a fact as well that the consumption of trans fats in Canada surpasses anywhere else in the world. The consumption of trans fats in our country is among the highest in the world. That should be of concern. Why more so in our particular country?

People in science have made the argument that while saturated fats are a problem, we must be fair, honest and accurate about the facts. When compared on an equal intake basis dietary trans fatty acids are an even greater dietary risk for coronary heart disease than saturated fats.

To put this in its true perspective, each 5% energy intake in saturates increases the risk by 17%, whereas a 2% increase in energy from trans fatty acids increases the risk by 93%. Even small amounts of trans fats can be significantly harmful and hurtful in terms of the damage they do in terms of clogging our arteries and the damage it does to our hearts as well.

What really annoys me, upsets me and gets me angry at points is when we have deception in terms of advertising. Some would say that it is unintentional, but at points I think it is very intentional. On some of the labelling and marketing today they talk in terms of cholesterol free and low in saturated fats, which is allowed by regulatory agencies. Therefore to the public this implies that these products have been deemed to be of benefit with respect to the prevention of heart disease, clogging our arteries and so on. When we read “cholesterol free, low in saturated fats” on a product label in the supermarket, people right away, at least through education at this point in the country, think that is better for them, when in fact what is not so clear is that there are trans fatty acids in that product, which is the stinger. Many of these products so marketed contain substantial levels of trans fatty acids which could potentially promote rather than prevent the development of heart disease and so on because of the very deleterious effects of the LDL cholesterol, HDL cholesterol and lipoprotein.

I object to that kind of advertising. I get rather upset when I see the kind of deception that goes on in terms of the labelling of products. People actually think they are doing something better for their health by consuming a product that is cholesterol free and low in saturated fat when in fact that product contains substantial amounts of trans fatty acids.

I think it is true that we must look at this very critical area. In an attempt to correct the health of consumers in all categories, but in particular our younger generation, those developing their tastes and appetites and training their taste buds, education is required.

A big part of this process actually is by way of the debate today and to engage in extensive debate in a committee study and so on. Even if the motion does not pass, at least we would know we had launched thorough discussion, that it has gone out to the public venue and that it is on the radar screen for the public.

However that is not the case presently. People know they should not consume too much saturated fat and so on, but on the matter of trans fatty acids it is not so well known and I think we would do well by the public if we were to get that debate and information going.

At present, Health Canada and the Food and Drug Administration are planning on instituting TFA labelling in the near future, as was heard in the remarks this morning. However the time for that is really long overdue. Such labelling is needed and I think it should be mandatory. I support in other realms, in justice and so on, truth in sentencing. I support in this area truth in labelling. It is dishonest not to give people the information they need.

We often talk about consent or choice, which is used often in debate, and possibly today by libertarian minded people, but choice and consent need to be based on information. It needs to be informed consent, which small children are not able to do. It is the parental responsibility but it can have an ill effect on children who are not fully informed. When they are alone at birthday parties or other places, they cannot make informed choices on their own.

When I served as an elected board member on the Saskatoon district health board in my fair province of Saskatchewan, we had a certain liability as board members. We were often concerned that when individuals were to go through some kind of procedure there should be a proper video, proper printed material and proper information verbally relayed to them. That was very important because we would be legally responsible, liable or sued if we did not make that information available to someone who was undergoing some sort of procedure.

Just as a caveat, I have also been an advocate on the sanctity of life side of things and the abortion question where people need information to make informed choices. Information is needed not only in the area of food but also in the justice area.

When we talk truth in sentencing and truth in labeling, it is so people will have adequate information. If we had not allowed trans fatty acids into the food chain 30 years ago we would not be having this debate today. It is somewhat regrettable that we did not reject it at that point in time but maybe there was not as much evidence and scientific study done.

I find it interesting that groups, like the Vegetable Oil Industry of Canada, have made the concession or the admission that trans fat, on a gram for gram basis, may have a greater effect on heart health. They go on to say that saturated fat consumption should be kept as low as possible. This is true but people can avoid that. Saturated fats are literally there on the surface. This is something that is hidden. It is not as obvious.

I note that, in respect to saturated fat and the argument that we should be going after saturated fat, there has been a fair bit of information. Saturated fat in terms of food and food preparation is easier to avoid than trans fats in processed foods.

The Vegetable Oil Industry of Canada actually does say that it supports the eventual elimination of trans fats from the diet but that it wants to buy time. That is a fair comment. It says that it is producing new oil variants low in saturated fat, applications that do not result in the formation of trans fatty acids, but that it will take some time. I think it is making a somewhat reasonable plea for more time. It has also asked that the federal government might want to assist the industry in increasing the speed at which these oils will be available on the market at competitive prices. Buying additional time on the matter seems to be the company's major concern.

The Canola Council of Canada makes the point of an inference of agreement and it makes the comment in respect of highly saturated fats. It talks about growing a higher value type of canola called high oleic canola, developed specifically for the purpose of replacing partially hydrogenated vegetable oils. It is doing its work but it may want to speed it up. This may prompt them to speed it up and get moving on it quicker. Farmers are being paid a premium right now for that high oleic canola. They want a more cooperative approach.

In conclusion, I would simply make the point that the science against trans fat consumption is without doubt about processed trans fats. The party opposite might want to be aware that there may be a difficulty in terms of the one year deadline.

I will be supporting the motion tonight as I expect a number of my colleagues will be doing. The Conservative Party recognizes the fact that trans fats are detrimental to the health of Canadians and that government does have a role to play in helping Canadians live healthy and productive lives.

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11:35 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Madam Speaker, I listened to my colleague's very good presentation. I would like to express my concern about something he said at the end of his speech and that was about whether or not this could happen within one year.

We all know the environment we are in here in the House. We would like to get a lot of legislation and regulations passed that would benefit Canadians. I would like assurances that we press for this within a one year timeframe.

Every year that we allow this to continue in the current context not only costs our health care system millions of dollars but also costs the lives of many. By moving forward on this assertively we would be encouraging those industrial pioneers that can change the products and formulas that are necessary for our foods to be bold. We could support them in that measure.

I want to ask for the hon. member's assurance that the Conservative Party will move forward very quickly along with everyone else to ensure that we deal with this issue within a year.

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11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Maurice Vellacott Conservative Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK

Madam Speaker, I cannot speak on behalf of the Conservative Party of Canada at this juncture, but for my part we do need to have momentum on this issue. Members who have been around this place for a while, like the member opposite, well know that things take an interminably long time. The wheels turn slowly.

I concur that this is an important issue and we might need to light a fire under some individuals. Maybe the industry will move quicker as a result of this. That is how it works. That is how the dynamics play out.

We should consult and work cooperatively where possible. We need to send some pretty strong messages that this needs to be moved on. It is not a matter of dragging our feet. We need to move on high oleic canola quicker and get it growing in more fields across the country. Maybe further research needs to be done.

I would support the shorter timeline, but I am trying to be realistic. We need to press on with this issue. On this issue, I speak as an individual member at this point.

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11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Garry Breitkreuz Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

Madam Speaker, I have been listening carefully to the debate today as it is of great interest to farmers in my area, many of whom are canola growers. They have raised some concerns with the fact that we may be moving too quickly if there is a one year timeline on this.

Research takes quite some time. It does not happen quickly. If we move with too much haste within the one year timeframe, we may actually create negative consequences and more problems than we are solving. I have been in the House for over 11 years and have found that sometimes something looks very good and if we move quickly on it, we regret it later on.

I think we should move very carefully. I do not think anybody here is taking issue with the intent of the motion, but it is the unintended consequences that we have to worry about.

Healthy alternatives may not be developed if we move too quickly and if we do not handle the issue carefully. At the present time we should be focusing on education. By raising this issue here in the House, we are starting to move in that direction. We are educating people as to the fact that trans fats are not good.

An article I read indicated that if trans fats were taken out of food and not done properly, there would be other negative, harmful substances entering our food that would have even more of a negative impact on our health than trans fats because of the shelf life of food.

I would also like to raise one other issue quickly. We may be increasing the price of food if we go in this direction too quickly and that may have a negative impact on the poor people in this country. That is possibly an unintended consequence. If we go too quickly in this direction, the people we are trying to help the most may be the most harmed by this. Let us get it right.

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11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Maurice Vellacott Conservative Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK

Madam Speaker, I appreciate the comments and the concerns of the member. I did make the point that I think we need to work as much as we can, consultatively and collaboratively, so that this gets moving forward and we find those alternates and so on. As canola farmers point out, the oleic canola may in fact be one of those replacements for partially hydrogenated vegetable oils. That has all come about of course in response to the medical community and the food industry's concerns about trans fats.

Unless there is a push and it starts somewhere, then it never gets going, it never goes anywhere. We will serve the public well as members of every party, Conservative members here as well, in getting the debate going today and pressing it forward.

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11:45 a.m.

Bloc

Christian Simard Bloc Beauport, QC

Madam Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member for Laval.

The NDP motion raises an extremely important and interesting issue. Personally, I would have preferred a slightly more limpid motion, not that it contains trans fats, but sometimes things that are well thought out merit being explained clearly. Then the words come easily.

I do not want to criticize to any extent—since we are totally in agreement with the motion—but I must point out that all motions include an educational component. While not wishing to give any lectures on writing or literature, it does seem to me that it might have been written in clearer and simpler terms.

Now, for the substance of the motion, it does raise an essential question about individual responsibility, the state's role in regularizing certain situations, and the right to information about what one eats.

To give my own situation as an example, I was recently surprised to learn at a routine doctor's appointment that I had become what my kids would call a tub of trans fat. I have a very high level of the bad cholesterol. I am not particularly chubby, however—I will let you be the judge of that, Madam Speaker—nor particularly unhealthy. I will soon turn 50, but it was a shock to learn that I will likely have to start taking pills, getting more exercise and eating responsibly.

That said, I do not eat chips or other junk food, as they call it. Like everyone else, I am responsible for what I eat and I do not deny that. Nobody should. But we have faith in the system. We have always had the impression, in the provinces of Canada and in Quebec, that there was a whole bunch of inspectors, specialists and doctors protecting us by carrying out studies before a new food was allowed on the market.

I believe, however, that some complacency has developed in this country as far as this is concerned. We saw that when certain Health Canada employees were not really able to get anywhere when they tried to act as whistleblowers about certain practices, about being pushed by lobbyists to allow certain harmful products and so on.

Is the system working to protect consumers? Consumers are faced with choices. In the case at hand, trans fats are mostly produced by an industrial process, hydrogenation, which turns oils to solids or semi-solids.

Take peanut butter for example. I think it has become a basic food for most students. I have overindulged in it myself, in my youth, but now I have to eat it in secret because my daughter is allergic. We can see that it is less attractive when the oil separates from the peanut solids. We are used to seeing foods that are presented in a more readily saleable version. Marketing has trumped public health and the health of our people, and we have not been informed of these effects.

There were no studies done before these foods were introduced into our diet in massive quantities 50 years ago.

We also realize that, according to the Heart Foundation's studies, our organisms were not designed to digest this kind of trans fats and are not able to eliminate them. There is some confusion in the ratings, depending on the study, but they appear to be more dangerous than saturated fats—which are bad for our health because we use too much of them.

In the case of trans fats, these products were imposed on us. I come from a large family that was not very rich. I remember that we used shortening or margarine instead of butter for our cooking, because they cost less than butter. We did not know we were damaging our health by doing so. We did it blithely, with no one telling us anything and with no safety system to protect us.

Avant-garde countries like Denmark, Sweden and all the Scandinavians have long been concerned with the composition of foods.

In this country, antibiotics are systematically added to finisher feed for pork. Collectively, these antibiotics do us harm when we really do need them to fight infections. The bacteria have grown stronger and, as a result, we are unable to fight off these infections because our base level of antibiotics is too high and our systems have gotten used to the antibiotics. Again, we have a false sense of security.

We have also gotten a false sense of security from the system. For instance, because Canada is a major producer of GMOs, more effort has been put into listening to the industry than into protecting human health, to the point of not being able to read the labels.

As regards trans fats, one has to know that if they are listed at the top, there is more, and one has to really do the math, which is not easy, to figure out how much there is. If one has that kind of time while doing the groceries, one can subtract the saturated fats from the total amount of fats to know how much trans fats a product contains.

The motion the NDP has put forward is an extremely interesting and innovative one. It raises the question of whether we, in Canada and Quebec, can change and start paying closer attention, as some already do. We can no longer afford to assume that food is automatically safe because there are people looking after it, that water is automatically safe because there is lots of it, and that there is no need to protect either food nor water or to ensure they are safe for the public. At the end of the day, we realize that policies are largely determined by industry, and not by concern for public health.

What Denmark and Scandinavia are doing, and a growing number of countries will have to do, is look into applying the precautionary principle and prohibiting processed fats used for reasons of aesthetics, quick processing or preservation, which seems to be to a large extent what trans fats are used for.

There are alternative products. I know that the Leclerc cookie company and other companies have product lines without trans fat, although they are generally a little more expensive. If you do not have a lot of money then you get heart disease. However, if you have a little more money you can afford trans fat free cookies. There is a responsibility in there somewhere. There is certainly a concern about the cost of food, which the Conservative member has raised. We cannot ignore such things. However, the price of junk food is always too high.

Awareness needs to be raised and often good legislation helps to do that.

For example, when there were no laws governing blood alcohol levels, people drove—I did as well sometimes—after having had a little bit to drink. It is odd, but people became good citizens because they had to. If we have a law banning trans fats, which are not produced naturally in food processing, this will send a clear message that they are bad and that we have to change what we eat. This will sound an alarm and work out for the best.

We also have to change our behaviour and make it clear to this government, which is sometimes more sensitive to lobbies than to public health, that the presence of GMOs in products has to be indicated so that people can make informed choices. Nor should bovine hormones be put on the market just because a Canadian industry has developed them. The government needs to develop a sense of responsibility that it is currently lacking. Hopefully, the NDP's call to ban trans fats will be a signal to put public health first and the economy second. Although it is important to have a healthy economy, it should not come at the expense of public health.

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11:55 a.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Madam Speaker, I am glad to have an opportunity to compliment my colleague from the Bloc Québécois for his remarks and to recognize the fact that the Bloc seems to be sympathetic to this very serious public health issue.

Could he share with us his views of some of the remarks made by the Minister of State for Public Health when she led us to believe that perhaps labelling would be adequate at this early stage to help reduce the consumption of trans fats? Does he believe it is all right to put poison in our food as long as it is properly labelled?

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11:55 a.m.

Bloc

Christian Simard Bloc Beauport, QC

Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question. Under certain circumstances there are not always complete studies, for example for GMOs, even about labelling that would allow it. However, I agree completely with the hon. member that the situation is the same when it comes to protecting the environment. Just having a warning about a persistent toxic poison in the environment does not remove the risk of contracting cancer. Just because there is a label does not mean the danger is gone.

Thus, I believe we must go beyond labelling, because on a label there are so many ingredients, instructions and other things that people get confused.

Sometimes, too, we hear, “Everything is bad; everything is dangerous”. After a while, people have heard it so often they no longer listen. Other times we hear that some foods are good and others are not so good. People no longer know whom to trust.

We are entitled to a responsible government. We have not had this opportunity very often, but we have the right to insist that a government be responsible and that it do the right thing when it is clearly needed. I think the studies are sufficiently conclusive in the case of trans fats.

There is a whole generation at risk. I said as a joke that my children call me a big load of trans fats, but I am worried that my children will also turn into big piles of trans fats and live shorter lives. We often say that we judge a society by the way it treats its children, how it feeds them, and how it takes care of them so that they will live long and well, enjoying full and complete lives. We cannot always prevent them from eating chips and candy and things like that. We must ensure—because they cannot always read and understand the labels—that there are no poisons in the foods they eat.

That said, there will always be a great need for education to transmit values, above and beyond the law.

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11:55 a.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Mr. Speaker, one of the consequences of Denmark banning trans fats is the benefit it has had to the dairy industry in that country. I know the province of Quebec has a very strong agrifood industry. I have met with dairy farmers from the Deschambault area of Quebec and I know people are very concerned about their market and the impact of the aluminum smelter that was built nearby.

Does the member have any views on the possible positive benefit to the Quebec dairy industry if we eliminate trans fats from our food supply?

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11:55 a.m.

Bloc

Christian Simard Bloc Beauport, QC

Mr. Speaker, I will be brief.

Yes, there can be advantages. But we need to honestly admit that trans fats must not be replaced with saturated fats, which might not be any better.

In general, it must be admitted that we eat too much fat, whether trans or saturated. I think if we were to eat more of the unsaturated fats—omega 3 or omega 6—our health would really benefit.

We need to ensure that the primary purpose of this is not related to some industry. That is what concerns me about the situation with the Deschambault aluminum smelter and the neighbouring farms. I remember when it was built, and it became necessary to ensure the quality of dairy milk and all products in the food chain. That is important. Some degree of guidance is needed, and the real danger is that, at some point—

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Noon

The Deputy Speaker

I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member for Beauport—Limoilou, but the member for Laval now has the floor.

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Noon

Bloc

Nicole Demers Bloc Laval, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to start by thanking my colleague from Beauport—Limoilou for giving me this time to express my opinion on the motion put forward by our colleagues from the New Democratic Party.

Naturally, we all want to be in good health and to have a good quality of life. To that end, we have to make wise and healthy food choices. But these choices are neither obvious nor easy to make, as my hon. colleague said earlier.

When we go grocery shopping, we all do our best to select wisely, but we sometimes cannot understand what the labels say and do not always have a calculator handy to determine how much trans fatty acid there is in the food we are looking at.

A study has shown that adult Canadians consume approximately 8.4 grams of trans fat per day, as my hon. colleague indicated earlier, while younger people may consume up to 10 grams a day. As he also pointed out, the human body is not designed to digest these fats. Not only is it not designed to digest them, but it does not use them as a source of energy either.

This means that these fats we consume are not only harmful but they also get stored in our bodies, eventually making us obese. I must say that our young people are certainly likely to end up with arteries full of lipids by the age of 30 or 35, putting them at risk for coronary heart disease at an earlier age than our parents.

I must admit that I did not use to pay much attention to those things and, whenever my grandchildren came over to visit, we fed them what grandchildren like to eat, because we want them to be happy when they visit.

When I learned that, among the more than 4,000 processed foods containing such trans fats, there was french fries, chips, donuts, pizza crusts, cakes, muffins, TV dinners, crackers, cookies and granola bars, I wondered what I was going to give them to eat. This left very little on the list of their favourite foods. These were part of their regular diet when visiting grandma. Going to grandma's meant eating junk food. But I realize that this is not doing them any good.

Therefore, I am very pleased to see a motion proposed that would limit these fats in our food industry. If we look at Denmark's experience in 2003, we see it did not entirely eliminate trans fats, but permitted trans fats in oils to a limit of 2%, or 2 grams per 100 grams. I think that is very reasonable and would keep part of the taste our children want and would have a better effect on our cardiovascular health.

We must not be fooled; these trans fats cause a greater increase in the rate of bad cholesterol. I have it, too, so I know what my hon. friend was talking about. When my doctor told me that, I was not very happy either, but I do know the causes, I must admit.

Thus, not just one thing causes a reduction in good cholesterol. And I like it. This kind of cholesterol helps my nerves remain calm, because it helps in processing vitamin E which is very good for the nerves. So good cholesterol is very good for that.

According to the Canadian Heart and Stroke Foundation, and the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, 2,000 heart attacks per year could be prevented if trans fatty acids were banned and thus at least 1,000 human lives saved. I think that is very important.

The Canadian Heart and Stroke Foundation has issued a number of recommendations on this issue, including that: accurate information about the nutritional value of foods and the health effects of lowering trans fat be made available to the public, to help consumers make informed and healthy choices; trans fat in processed foods be replaced as soon as possible and where feasible by healthy alternatives such as monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fats rather than with equal amounts of saturated fat; and Canadians consume a healthy, balanced diet that includes foods from the four food groups in Canada’s Food Guide to Healthy Eating.

I have to admit that this is very hard. In addition to not necessarily being aware of all the problems trans fats can cause, there is also the fact that some people are illiterate. When they do their shopping, in all good conscience they cannot even read the labels warning them about potential problems if they consume the ingredients in these foods.

We do not take the number of illiterate people into account often enough, not in Quebec and not in Canada.

We recently received little cards to send to our constituents who had learned to read. These people, who learn to read with great determination and effort, do not necessarily have the ability to understand the significance of the food described on food product labels.

This affects not just those of us who are used to these things, because we often talk about it, but it affects other people too. It affects children who go to the grocery store or to restaurants at lunch time. They do not know or understand what trans fats are. We have to do more to help them than just list these items on labels. It is a good idea, but it is not the ideal solution.

In early 2003, the Canadian agri-food industry was given three years to label the saturated fat content but not the quantity of trans fat in every product, while smaller companies had up to five years to comply with this new legislation. Five years means they have until December 2007. That is a long time.

Despite these deadlines, some responsible companies, such as Frito-Lay in Alberta, have not only complied, but have already announced they will eliminate trans fat from their ingredients. That means we can keep eating Doritos and Tostitos. My grandchildren will be very happy about that, but I have to stay away from such food.

On a more serious note, currently in North America roughly 50% of adults are overweight or obese. Cardiovascular disease is the primary cause of death in Canada and Quebec. People suffer from many diseases caused by factors we cannot control. However, when we can do something to fight the diseases that afflict are fellow citizens, I think we must do so diligently.

That is why we agree with the NPD motion. We will work together with all the other political parties in this House that want Canada to take a firm stand by limiting the quantity of trans fat allowed in food and follow the example of Denmark where the limit is 2g per 100g of fatty oil in food.

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12:05 p.m.

West Nova Nova Scotia

Liberal

Robert Thibault LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Health

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. member for her fine speech. She and I are both on the Standing Committee on Health.

It is always difficult to find foods that are good for us. This morning, the chief Liberal Party whip told me that the test is very simple: smell and taste the food. If it smells good and tastes good, it is bad for you and should be spat out immediately or left untouched.

I think the hon. member for her speech and have a question I would like to ask. She speaks of following the recommendation, or the motion, and following Denmark's example in eliminating these trans fats. I can understand her point of view, but the plan is to use a process in conjunction with heart foundations, food and agriculture industries, and of course the department and the government in order to decide on the best steps to take. Perhaps Denmark is not the best example for Canada. Is she more in favour of using Denmark as our model, or of the motion as presented?

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12:10 p.m.

Bloc

Nicole Demers Bloc Laval, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his question.

I lean more toward the motion as presented than to the Danish example. This example is one of the things that has stirred up a great deal of comment from all countries, even one study. The European Commission has struck a European Food Safety Authority Scientific Panel on Dietetic Products, Nutrition and Allergies and mandated it to produce an opinion on the presence of trans fats in foods for human consumption. This was done because the opinion of the EU member states on this differed from that of the Danish authorities.

The Danish government used public health as the basis of its argument to justify passage of this legislation. It claims there is a fairly clear connection between the consumption of trans fats and cardiovascular disease, stroke, certain types of cancer and type 2 diabetes. Yesterday we met some young people who have type 1 diabetes, but type 2 we know can be remedied. That is very important.

In my opinion, the NDP motion is both important and of great interest.