Debates of Nov. 3rd, 2004

Privilege

[The Speaker]

I thank the hon. government House leader for that clarification. I will bear his comments in mind as well in my deliberations on this matter.

Interparliamentary Delegations

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I have two reports to table today. Pursuant to Standing Order 34(1) I have the honour to present to the House, in both official languages, the report of the Canadian delegation of the Canada-Europe Parliamentary Association, OSCE, respecting its participation to the expanded bureau meeting, held in Copenhagen, Denmark on April 23-24, 2004.

Pursuant to Standing Order 34(1) I have the honour to present, in both official languages, the report of the Canadian delegation of the Canada-Europe Parliamentary Association, OSCE, respecting its participation to the 13th annual session held in Edinburgh, from July 5-9, 2004.

I would also like to thank very much all the accompanying staff who were very helpful to all hon. members and senators who were in attendance and who participated very well on behalf of Canada.

Committees of the House

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Madam Speaker, I have the honour to present, in both official languages, the first report of the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration on the main estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2005. The report is respectfully submitted.

[Jim Gouk, Conservative, Southern Interior, BC]

Madam Speaker, I have the honour to present, in both official languages, the first report of the Standing Committee on Transport.

Pursuant to an order of reference of the House of Tuesday, October 19 the committee considered Bill C-4, an act to implement the Convention on International Interests in Mobile Equipment and the Protocol to the Convention on International Interests in Mobile Equipment on Matters Specific to Aircraft Equipment. The committee has decided to report the same back to the House without amendment.

I appreciate the cooperation of all members and staff of the committee for passing the bill quickly so we can focus on the more contentious issues of transport.

Youth Criminal Justice Act

[Gary Lunn, Conservative, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

moved for leave to introduce Bill C-258, an act to amend the Youth Criminal Justice Act (breach of a condition of an order).

Madam Speaker, I rise today to introduce my private member's bill, a bill to amend the Youth Criminal Justice Act. My bill recognizes that the vast majority of troubled youth leave crime behind them if they get the guidance they need at a very early intervention. To succeed, adequate supervision is absolutely critical.

If passed, the bill will lay charges against guardians who fail to report known breaches of probation upon discovering them. Penalties can range from a $2,000 fine up to and including six months in prison or both.

Without enforcement mechanisms most probation breaches go unreported. Without reporting, youth do not get the guidance they need. My bill seeks a fair balance between punishment and rehabilitation.

I encourage all members to support this important bill so we can ensure that young people, who get started in an area of crime, can get the help and guidance they need to get them out of the revolving door of our youth courts.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

Excise Tax Act

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

moved for leave to introduce Bill C-259, an act to amend the Excise Tax Act (elimination of excise tax on jewellery).

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to introduce my private member's bill to amend the Excise Tax Act and its regulations to eliminate the excise tax on jewellery.

The excise tax is a luxury tax that unfairly discriminates against the jewellery industry. It is a 10% levy paid by manufacturers on the sale price of items manufactured in Canada and by importers on the duty paid value of imports. It was introduced in 1918, after World War I, as part of a package of excises on items considered to be luxury goods. Today, it is the only remaining luxury tax in Canada.

Canada is the only industrialized nation and the only diamond producing nation that has maintained such a tax. Due to this tax, Canadian mined diamonds cost more in Canada than anywhere else in the world. In addition, the House of Commons finance committee has concluded on more than one occasion that this tax should be abolished.

I encourage the support of all members for my bill.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

Treaties Act

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Matapédia—Matane, QC]

moved for leave to introduce Bill C-260, an act respecting the negotiation, approval, tabling and publication of treaties.

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to present, seconded by the hon. member for La Pointe-de-l'Île, the bill entitled An Act respecting the negotiation, approval, tabling and publication of treaties.

The purpose of this bill is to ensure that treaties are first submitted to the House of Commons. Of course, we are talking here about major treaties. Following that initial step, there would have to be a true consultation of civil society by a parliamentary committee, before Parliament would vote on these treaties.

The objective is to ensure real transparency. Treaties have a bearing on the daily lives of people and, increasingly, they impact on everyone's life. Just think about free trade or the trade treaty. From now on, such treaties would have to be submitted to the House of Commons, presented to civil society through a parliamentary committee, and published in the Canada Gazette and on the website of the Department of Foreign Affairs, so that people could find out about their content.

The bill also seeks to ensure mandatory consultation of the provinces before negotiating a treaty on an issue that comes under their jurisdiction. We are asking that when a province is affected by a treaty, it be consulted before that treaty is signed and before the government makes a commitment on its behalf.

Of course, it is my hope that all members of the House will support and pass this bill.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

Committees of the House

[Rob Merrifield, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Madam Speaker, I move that the first report of the Standing Committee on Health presented to the House on Monday, November 1, 2004, be concurred in.

Madam Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the member for Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia.

This is a very important motion and I would like to explain exactly how it came to the House. This is a motion that was made in the health committee and it was a unanimous decision by the committee. Unanimous decisions are not all that striking in themselves but the House has to understand that this decision was made unanimously and it went against the direction in which the government has gone for the last two parliaments.

It becomes very significant when government members will sit in a committee room, discuss the issue and realize that they were in error for the direction in which the government had been going on the issue of compensation to hepatitis C victims outside the window for the last seven years, or even a decade. It becomes a very significant issue to understand how it came to the House.

We made the motion in committee. It was a unanimous decision to compensate all those victims outside the window. There was another motion made in committee which was to bring it to the House and have it reported here. It was reported on Monday so my notice of motion was for the concurrence of the House to recognize that the decision of the committee is the right direction in which to go. We are asking the House to concur with that motion. It is a very legitimate request and we believe that the House should concur.

There is $1.1 billion left in a compensation fund that started at $1.2 billion and all of those who are within the window have already been paid. We know the numbers outside the window are much reduced compared to the estimates that were made initially. There are about 5,000 left, maybe 6,000 at the very most. There is absolutely no rational reason why we would not compensate outside that window.

We had a take note debate in the House last evening to discuss the issue. The minister said that he would like to pursue this and plans to take it to cabinet. When I looked at the cabinet ministers I realized that a number of cabinet ministers who were against this for the last decade are still sitting in cabinet. Therefore, I am a little nervous about the direction in which they will go when they are in the cabinet room. That is why it is very important for the House to send them a message urging them to do the right thing.

There is no reason that this should not happen. The funding is there, although the decision should never have been based on the funding. It should have been based on fairness.

We have to understand that all of those outside the window who were impacted by tainted blood who got HIV and which progressed to AIDS were compensated. It is only the hepatitis C victims. Not only was there discrimination of the individuals, it was also of the disease itself. Because of that, in the sense of fairness if for no other reason, all victims of tainted blood should be compensated.

It was a terrible time in the history of this country when the citizens felt that the blood system was safe and it was not. The government knew. It had been forewarned that it was not safe but it proceeded. We could go on and on with the rationale and the history of the situation. I do not know if it is important to do that at this time. What is important is that we make sure that the House has an opportunity to speak to the cabinet and to the government in power with regard to doing the right thing for all Canadians.

The decision in 1998 should have been to compensate all those outside the window, which coincides with the Krever inquiry. That was the right thing to do then. It is the right thing to do now. We still have time to do the right thing and I encourage Parliament to send that message.

[The Acting Speaker (Hon. Jean Augustine)]

I want to correct the record and inform all hon. members that the motion is seconded by the hon. member for Winnipeg North rather than the hon. member for Charleswood St. James—Assiniboia.

Questions and comments.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Madam Speaker, the take note debate last evening was important because of the consensus among all hon. members who participated. There was the positive position taken by the minister with respect to the matter to the extent that commitments can be made.

I ask the member to elaborate on the condition of testing of blood in the period outside the window of eligibility. Some tests were proxy tests. They were not the right tests. I think they were being used in the U.S. We did not use them. It was not until after that period that a proper test came in.

I would like clarification. Would the member advise the House on when reliable testing became available with regard to hepatitis C?

[Rob Merrifield, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Madam Speaker, I would be pleased to answer that question.

We actually have documentation showing that the government was aware of the possibility of the problem with tainted blood in the blood supply in Canada as far back as 1981. That is no excuse. We could go around and around on this one, but that is a terrible legacy. Outside the window we knew about the blood and we should have been liable as a country back that far and beyond.

We should compensate those who are victimized by tainted blood through no fault of their own. We should treat them fairly from one side to the other. We cannot just pick the window of 1986 to 1990 and think that we are doing the right thing. That is almost worse than not dealing with them at all, because we are treating one segment completely different from the rest for absolutely no reason. That is why it is very important.

That is why the health committee looked at this very seriously. We made a motion on it urging the government to move on this immediately. We need concurrence of the House to do that.

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Health]

Madam Speaker, we had a very good discussion on this last night. Everybody participated until very late last night. The U.S. election was not over when we got home. We were not here that late, so we still got the tail end of those reports.

The minister was here yesterday and the member got a chance to question him and dialogue with him. He recognized an understanding, we hope, of what the fund is that existed. I do not remember the exact wording but the committee agreed in light of the surplus in the fund, because we all believe there is a surplus in the fund, but he will understand that fund does not belong to the government. It belongs to the recipients in the trust. It has to be managed through an organization with the consent of the court. The actuarial surplus would be ideal to be used to widen that, which is the step that we are taking now and which the minister is looking at now.

Would he not agree that is a reasonable approach, as everybody did yesterday evening?

[Rob Merrifield, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Madam Speaker, I would be pleased to answer that one.

We could have and probably should have debated this issue until 10 o'clock this morning if we were waiting for the outcome of the U.S. election. It would have been appropriate to do so because this important issue has been on the minds of Canadians for a long time. Whether a person is impacted or not, a sense of the fairness of this issue drives Canadians to understand that it was a dark day in Canadian history and needs to be corrected.

With regard to the comments of the minister last evening, it seemed to me that he was trying to say that he wanted to do the right thing, but he had not yet talked to cabinet. If he had talked to cabinet and said that he had been discussing it with his colleagues and there were some details they needed to work out before it was done, I would feel a little bit more comfortable, but that is not so. In fact, he has not even approached cabinet yet.

We have to understand who is in cabinet. The people in cabinet are the same ones who were there in the last Parliament. I very aggressively let them know how much money was in the fund in just the last few months, yet they were unwilling to consider it. There were all kinds of excuses why they could not pay and compensate appropriately.

Forgive me if I am a little skeptical of, maybe not the intent of the minister, but perhaps the ability of the minister to do the right thing in this case. That is why the House has to encourage cabinet and the minister to do the right thing on this issue and it needs to be done now.

[Steven Fletcher, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James, MB]

Madam Speaker, the victims of hepatitis C suffer painful physical symptoms, fatigue, cirrhosis of the liver, nausea, and many other ailments. Their pain is increased particularly for those who are in the pre-1996, post-1990 window. These people were infected by tainted blood and their pain and suffering has not been recognized by the Government of Canada. They deserve compensation, yet the government refuses to broaden it. We know the money is available. A surplus exists, yet these people are being denied the adequate financial resources to mitigate their suffering.

Today in question period we had an accusation from the Minister of Health that somehow the opposition parties were politicizing this issue. I would like to remind the government side that in 1998 there was a motion brought forward by the opposition parties to compensate these victims of hepatitis C from tainted blood, but the prime minister of the day made it into a confidence motion on the government. The prime minister of the day politicized the motion that would have opened the door to compensate the victims of hepatitis C from tainted blood.

It is the Liberal government that has politicized this issue. It is the Liberal government that has refused to do the right thing. However at the health committee a few weeks ago, members from all parties, including the Liberal Party, agreed that compensating hepatitis C victims from tainted blood was the right thing to do. Hence we are discussing that motion today.

It is really interesting that four members of the Liberal government have decided to side with the opposition parties. They have done it because they are people of conscience and people who want to do the right thing and compensate the victims of hepatitis C.

We have an opportunity here. The money is there, but more important, the principle is that these people need to be dealt with fairly. Even if there was not a surplus we should compensate these people, but there is, so there is absolutely no excuse. I think, and I believe the opposition parties agree and at least four members of the Liberal Party agree, that compensation should be made.

I therefore move:

That this question be now put.

[The Acting Speaker (Hon. Jean Augustine)]

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Acting Speaker (Hon. Jean Augustine)]

Resuming debate.

[Jean Lapierre, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to take part in this very important debate. I was listening to the hon. member who spoke a few minutes before me. He seemed to be saying that some MPs have more of a conscience than others. I do not think we are here today to examine one another's conscience. I think that all hon. members want us to compensate all the victims. Past agreements have to be honoured. In that respect, I think the Minister of Health has shown a great deal of openness.

However, I would like to provide a little background on this issue. All the members in this House want to help the victims, but we must consider past decisions and live with some of the legal consequences that currently govern this program.

The Government of Canada paid $1.4 billion at the time to compensate and help victims who contracted the hepatitis C virus from the Canadian blood supply system. Some $875 million was allocated to compensate victims infected between January 1, 1986 and July 1, 1990. That was the settlement agreement.

There is also $525 million for care and assistance for the victims. This money will provide care and better blood regulation and surveillance.

In 1998, the Government of Canada and its provincial and territorial partners announced definitive help for infected Canadians. At the time, the settlement was also meant for hemophiliacs and thalassemics infected with hepatitis C—these people had received blood products during that time—regardless of when they had been infected.

At the time, the total settlement was $1.118 billion. The federal government's contribution was roughly $875 million. The money was put in a trust fund for the claimants, pursuant to the settlement agreement for people who contracted hepatitis C.

I know we all want to do better, but we all have to realize that the settlement agreement is currently being administered at arm's length from governments. We cannot, today, decide to dip into the fund. We know it is managed by independent court-appointed administrators. The court ruled and appointed Crawford Expertises Canada Inc. and the Garden City group.

The trustees are ultimately responsible for the decisions regarding the claims and the compensation granted to the victims. All of us want to do more and to do better, but we have to abide by the court's decisions that were taken precisely to protect claimants and keep the government at arm's length.

Yes, there is some money left in the fund and I hope that we will be able to compensate more victims. As of March 31, 2004, the trust fund contained $865 million. As of October 1, 2004, 9,424 claims had been approved and approximately $387 million in benefits had been paid. The fund did benefit those who qualified for the reference period.

We are, of course, aware of all the difficulties faced by the others. However, the initial agreement was intended to compensate the 1986 to 1990 victims. The $865 million still in the trust fund do not belong to the federal government. The House alone cannot make any decision regarding that fund.

It is my understanding that a procedure is in place to allow the courts to review the fund and its actuarial surplus in June 2005.

At some point, the courts, under totally independent supervision, will review the real surplus and the future obligations under the trust fund. They will also be able to find out if there is really a surplus and if there are no longer any commitments to the victims who contracted the disease during the reference period. If not, then they will be able to tell us how to use the money. At that point, I guess a lot of people will want to make representations. Let us hope that, despite all the arrangements made by the court, the surplus will be big enough so that more victims can get more money.

I heard my hon. colleague say that some members have a conscience while others do not. We are all responsible for the management of the trust fund. We all have to respect the process that was set up at the time. We cannot unilaterally change the rules. It would not be acceptable to those who still believe today that they are entitled to some compensation.

I think the Minister of Health has been very clear on this: we want to look at all possible ways of making the compensation broader and fairer. No member in this House wants to see anyone suffer. No member in this House wants to deprive anyone of anything. But we must live with the consequences and the reality of the history of this issue. It is a question of responsibility. We must also recognize that this is an independent fund.

I know that all the members are full of good intentions and want to see this fund paid out. When we look at the figures and see $865 million, we say we could be doing more. Perhaps, but it is not our place to decide. Members who were here at the time of the last agreement decided that it should be up to a court. I have complete confidence in the courts. In June 2005, we shall see if there is a way to be more generous.

In the meantime, I know that the Minister of Health, as he announced publicly, will be discussing this with his cabinet colleagues. Still, even the health minister cannot unilaterally change the terms of this decision.

We know that the settlement agreement created a compensation schedule for claimants eligible for fixed compensation payments, compensation for loss of income or cost of treatment, and other expenses. There are six levels of fixed payments as compensation for damages, from $10,000 at level 1 to $100,000 at level 6. An individual's total compensation can be $225,000 depending on the seriousness of the claimant's illness.

As the illness progresses, eligible claimants already included in the program between 1986 and 1990 can ask for more compensation. It would not be responsible to tell these people who are already eligible for the program that we are going to empty the trust fund. I think we must absolutely ensure that everything is done according to the rules. We have a moral and legal commitment to the people who are already included in the program.

We cannot unilaterally make decisions for them, without the precise studies that are called for in the agreement. We know that payments from the fund may continue as long as 70 years. We must take the long-term view of this. We cannot make a decision today that will affect the lives of all these people. I was saying that at present there are several thousand, in fact there are 9,424 claims already in the system, but there will be others in the long term. All of this must be considered.

I know that if he could, the minister would rather write each victim a cheque right away. But that is not the way the agreement was designed initially. It would not be responsible on his part to do that right away, through an initiative that could affect the rights of those already in the program.

New claimants and those already eligible, who get continuous benefits, have until 2010 to make a claim.

Of course, all members in the House want to do more and wish we could do more. But we are bound by an agreement. There is no away around it. An agreement was made with those infected between January 1986 and July 1990, and we cannot extend the program at their expense without examining the facts and getting proper authorization.

I heard partisan remarks earlier in this regard, and that is unfortunate.

[An hon. member]

On which side?

[Jean Lapierre, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

They came from the Conservatives mostly. This is unfortunate, because this issue is too difficult for anybody to try to score political points. Nobody wants to earn votes today on the basis of human suffering and illnesses. I cannot believe any member in the House would wish to score political points by taking advantage of a victim's misery. It would be utterly irresponsible.

That is why when I hear these members now wanting to change the rules that were agreed on, I think that we have to live with them. It does not prevent us from seeking possible formulas to extend the scope of the program. However, this will be in June 2005. It is not very far from now. I am sure that, if there is a way to find other measures, the Minister of Health will do so, because his heart is as big as anyone's here. However, we cannot do so to the detriment of an agreement governed by the court.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Jean Lapierre, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Some people are getting excited. The reality is such that we must have a calm debate on this subject, and I am sure that victims demand more.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Jean Lapierre, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Indeed, they demand more than the yelling from members. Victims who are watching us today know that a process was validated by the court, that there is a process. Moreover, we are talking about June 2005. I know that no one acted in bad faith on this file.

Today, it is good to have this debate, it is good to reflect on the lot of those who are not included in the program. However, we must not do so to the detriment of those who are included. In this sense, the Minister of Health is acting responsibly. Of course, we will be able as early as June 2005—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!