House of Commons Hansard #44 of the 38th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was columbia.

Topics

ForestryGovernment Orders

7:15 p.m.

Conservative

Jay Hill Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC

Madam Chair, I did not really have a question when I was sitting here following the intervention by the member for Nanaimo—Cowichan, until I heard the minister attack her for not phoning him of all things.

It shows everyone how ridiculous the government's approach to this crisis is, that he would suggest that regardless of what party the opposition members are from, somehow the onus is on them to pick up the phone, as he just said, and enlighten him about the seriousness of the problem.

The Liberal cabinet was just out in British Columbia for a cabinet meeting. Surely to God the Minister of Natural Resources would have some clue about what is going on in British Columbia. He was just there. If he wanted to meet with people right there on the ground whose livelihoods are affected, people who are going broke, their businesses are going broke, surely to goodness he could meet with them without someone having to pick up the phone and phoning him.

ForestryGovernment Orders

7:20 p.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Madam Chair, I welcome the member's comments.

It is really unfortunate that is what happens when we have the kind of situation that we currently have in B.C. Anyone who has flown over parts of B.C. will see the swaths of brown trees as our forests die off.

It is unfortunate that instead of talking about the cold, hard facts about what is happening in communities and to people's lives, we end up pointing fingers about who picked up the phone first.

As other members have pointed out, this is a natural disaster in our provinces. We need something more than another report. We need some action that talks about how we deal with this so people are not on the streets.

ForestryGovernment Orders

7:20 p.m.

Yukon Yukon

Liberal

Larry Bagnell LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Natural Resources

Madam Chair, I am glad the member is here and, as I said earlier, to learn of the many things that have been done for a number of years by the Canadian Forest Service. The minister outlined these. I think that is the point the minister was also making in defining the many action plans.

Since the member talked about communities, I am sure she is delighted that one of the action plans is the research that is being done on the effects to communities and what we can do for them.

I would like to ask the member what some of the components of the industrial strategy she was suggesting related to forestry might be. All the mills in the area are working cutting the timber infected with the mountain pine beetle. The mills are filled to capacity doing this work. What types of elements or other things in this industrial strategy would she suggest?

ForestryGovernment Orders

7:20 p.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Madam Chair, we understand that if we go ahead with these clear cuts, we will very quickly deforest large tracts of land. This will have a longer term impact on the communities.

We need to engage local communities in the discussion. It is absolutely critical that the people who will bear the longer term brunt are at the discussion table, along with their provincial comrades. It is critical because they are the people who will have to talk about whether they retool their mills, whether they need a retraining strategy because people will not be able to work in the forestry sector, and whether or not we have to look at a different kind of value added component.

In the short term, we will have lots of jobs. It is the longer term that I am really concerned about. Many rural communities in Alberta and British Columbia are already impacted by other strategies that are harming them. Softwood lumber is a good example, and of course fishing, which we do not want to talk about tonight. We need that longer term rural strategy that involves people from the community in the discussions.

ForestryGovernment Orders

7:20 p.m.

Conservative

Dick Harris Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Madam Chair, the hon. member for Nanaimo—Cowichan talked about deforesting. Believe me, deforesting will happen in one of two ways: either we will be the ones in control of it, or a forest fire will be in control of it. That is why we have been after the federal government to buy into the B.C. plan.

I do not know if the hon. member for Nanaimo—Cowichan was around B.C. in the early 1990s. Tonight she is talking about being selective in the forest. That was the same type of attack that we wanted back in the early 1990s when the infestation had just started in Tweedsmuir Provincial Park. The municipalities and the regional districts were saying to the provincial NDP government, “For God's sake, get into Tweedsmuir Park with some selective logging, horse logging, whatever, but get the mature pine out of the path of this little group of pine beetles”. However, the Suzuki people and the environmentalists who were supporting and giving advice to the provincial NDP government at the time were telling the government not to go in there because it is a park. We have got that now.

On the other hand, we cannot keep our heads in the sand like the federal government has. The infestation has gotten bigger and bigger. The federal government put its head in the sand, hoping that the problem would go away and that it would not have to become responsible for helping out the province of B.C. The plans are already there.

Why have we not phoned? Good government is about leadership. The provincial government has shown leadership in what it wants to do. It has written the plan. It wants some leadership from the federal government to come to the aid of the province. The province has the plan. We have leadership in the province. We want some leadership by the federal government. We want it to recognize its responsibility as a partner in this country when provinces need its help. That is what the government has not done and we need it.

I suggest to the member for Nanaimo—Cowichan that she continue to urge the federal Liberal government to help out in the plan that the province of British Columbia has. I know the province will take into consideration all the environmental questions that need to be recognized, but we need the federal government to come to the province's aid.

ForestryGovernment Orders

7:25 p.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Madam Chair, I want to point out that I am suggesting that there needs to be a multiple level approach to this particularly complicated problem. That is why I am encouraging us to look beyond just purely clear cuts.

ForestryGovernment Orders

7:25 p.m.

Etobicoke North Ontario

Liberal

Roy Cullen LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Madam Chair, I have been listening to this debate with much interest. I think we should put this in some context.

The northern interior of British Columbia is approximately 50% of the land mass of the province. The softwood lumber that comes from this area represents about 21% of Canada's softwood lumber production. I have seen estimates that the infestation has affected $6 billion worth of timber. This is a huge problem.

Some might ask what my interest would be, as I am the member for Etobicoke North. There are a couple of reasons. I lived in British Columbia for 12 years and got quite involved in forestry, and ironically this past year my own riding of Etobicoke North was threatened by the Asian longhorned beetle. Fortunately it did not turn out to be as bad as we thought but it can be devastating for communities. The Asian longhorned beetle problem in my riding does not come close to the devastation that the pine beetle is wreaking on the residents of northern British Columbia and on the total economy of British Columbia.

The reasoning of the member for Nanaimo--Cowichan is the same kind of reasoning that kept the British Columbia provincial government from going ahead and declaring an emergency, which would have called for clear-cut logging. Let us cut to the chase. Doing these interventions at this point in time, going after the host trees or the blue trees, the felling and the burning in a selective way, the only way to deal with a huge infestation like this one is with salvage logging, with clear-cut logging.

That brings me to the point about which I am a little confused, because I am not quite sure what role the federal government can play in a salvage logging operation. The delineation of responsibilities, federal and provincial, is quite clear. Surely they are not asking the Canadian Forest Service to go in there and do some clear-cut logging. There might be a plan. I would like to see the plan. I was just chatting with the Minister of Natural Resources. He has not seen the plan. The parliamentary secretary has not seen the plan. If there is no plan and if we have not seen the plan, how can we react to a plan?

I certainly have not seen the plan but I would like to know what role the plan envisages for the federal government. Clearly the Canadian Forest Service has a role to play when it comes to research. It has a role to play in terms of the export policies as they relate to international trade, as it deals with the softwood lumber dispute with the United States. Its jurisdiction is quite clear.

In fact it was only a few years ago that the federal government partnered with a number of the provinces with the forest resource development agreements, the old FRDAs. Those were cost shared agreements to replant forests. They were all eliminated, actually at the urging of many of the provinces. They said they did not want the federal government planting trees, that this was a provincial jurisdiction.

I empathize with the members for Cariboo--Prince George and Prince George--Peace River. They live and breathe this every day of their lives.

I had the good pleasure many times to visit Prince George, to visit forestry operations. In fact the company I was involved with in Toronto owned 50% of a big operation out there, Northwood Pulp and Timber. I think it has since been sold.

There are so many different forestry operations in that region, areas like Burns Lake, Chetwynd, Dawson Creek, Fort Nelson, Fort St. James, Fort St. John, Houston, Mackenzie, McBride, Smithers, Valemount, and Vanderhoof. When I see those names I am reminded of my many trips probably to every one of them. They are forestry communities and there are many other forestry communities as well.

This is a huge problem. When we look at the interventions, how we can deal with this, the best way would be to have a cold snap of -40°C right at the beginning of the winter. That would pretty much deal with the mountain pine beetle. We all know that B.C. has not had that kind of climate. In fact I would hope that it causes the members opposite to look at the effect of climate change and global warming. Surely that is one of the impacts it is having in northern B.C. We are not getting those cold winters that kill the beetles immediately. We do not have the cold and there is no real prospect that B.C. is going to get that kind of cold weather. Therefore what do we do when the beetle starts expanding its sphere of influence every day and takes over huge swaths of forests?

What happens to this timber? I have had the disturbing experience of flying over many of these areas. What we see are the red tops of trees. We know those trees are infested with beetles. In terms of their ultimate value, there is a way to log these trees at a certain point in time and still get good value from them. However, even with the passage of time, their commercial value becomes very limited because they rot and discolour. That is a huge problem.

Therefore, what can we do? If we go in with massive logging operations, we end up with a huge supply of timber on the market. What do we do with that? Timber that is salvageable is put through the sawmills, then more lumber is shipped into the U.S. market and prices are affected negatively. I am not talking about a small area. A huge amount of lumber would be created from this type of devastated forest.

I am not sure what the answer is. I wish I could stand here and say that there would be a huge federal role. Maybe there is one, and I would like to see what it is. However, it is not up to the federal government to go in and do clear cut logging, that is for sure.

The minister and colleagues have talked about the $41 million initiative, the mountain pine beetle initiative. I suppose that is to help with doing some research and trying to envisage the world post the beetle. The real answer is to stop the growth and spread of the beetle. The only way to do that is to log it.

There are some people in British Columbia and across Canada who would say that it would be terrible to clear cut those forests. As the member for Cariboo—Prince George noted, they will be gone anyway. We might as well deal with the spread of this beetle because one way or the other that timber will be ruined.

I did some work in the private sector. We looked at the Canadian Forestry Service and at different models for the delivery of its programs and considered whether they should be decentralized or centralized. There is the Pacific Forestry Centre in Victoria. We actually recommended that it decentralize some of the research to Prince George. I think the government did that for a while. I do not know if the Canadian Forestry Service still has a research capability in Prince George. The argument we put forward at the time was that we could not deal with the forest industry in British Columbia without focusing on Prince George and the Prince George region. Too much is going on there and it is too important for the livelihood of many people.

I will throw out some statistics. Located in the northern interior of British Columbia are 141 production facilities. They provide about 25,000 direct jobs and 55,000 to 75,000 indirect jobs. I have already commented on the percentage of the softwood lumber exports that come from the northern part of British Columbia, and it is enormous. The region produces more than five billion board feet of lumber annually. That is enough for 640,000 new single family homes. When the mountain pine beetle comes in and creates this kind of devastation, that has a huge impact for the local economy and the economy of British as a whole.

We can talk about all the other types of interventions in an academic sense, but they will not work. We have to get rid of the trees that are infested and we have to stop the growth of the infestation. The only way to do that it to do some control or prescribed burns into these areas or we salvage it, log it and clear cut it. Anything else I think is just missing the point.

The citizenry in British Columbia has to accept the fact that they need to get in there and clear cut these areas. No one likes the idea of clear cutting forest, but when the alternatives are much worse, then that is something to which we have to face.

ForestryGovernment Orders

7:35 p.m.

Conservative

Dick Harris Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Madam Chair, it was almost amusing watching the Minister of State for Multiculturalism, the Minister of Natural Resources and everyone crowding around asking about the plan?

The same thing happened about a year and a half ago, or two years ago, when I talked to the current Minister of Western Economic Diversification. I brought the subject up in the House in the form of a question and the response came back that they had not seen an official plan yet. The minister of forestry and the provincial people from British Columbia were here on a number of occasions. They briefed all the necessary people in the federal government about the crisis.

Shortly after those comments, the official plan, gilded in gold, was presented to the federal government after it knew about the problem. The same thing exists. The federal government knows about the problem in B.C. It knows how much money British Columbia needs. It knows about the plan. I am kind of certain that the plan is here. I am not certain I am completely comfortable with what I am hearing from the minister and the Liberal members. Maybe they are not ready to deal with it.

The member for Etobicoke North said that we do not need to get too academic about it. I agree with the member 100%. Let us get down to basic facts of what this is all about. We know what the problem is. We know how to solve it and the province knows how to solve it. The member for Etobicoke North knows how to solve it. He talked about the federal government not getting in and clear cutting timber. Of course not. However, when it gave $400 million to the auto industry during the last election, the members were not down there assembling automobiles either.

The Minister of Industry has talked about another billion for industry in Canada. We will not see federal people out in the plants. We are talking about cutting a cheque to become a partner in fighting the beetle infestations crisis. How much more basic can we get than that? It is simplistic and the member for Etobicoke North knows exactly what the federal government needs to do. Unfortunately, the double and triple talk we are getting from the ministers responsible to avoid it and not show some leadership is a distance from the common sense approach to it, and we all know what that is.

We need a cheque out in B.C. to try to salvage what we can.

ForestryGovernment Orders

7:40 p.m.

Liberal

Roy Cullen Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

Madam Chair, I do not know where the plan is, but if the member could get a copy of it delivered to the minister, I would like to see it.

There is a difference. Defining a problem and the scope of a problem is not a plan. There has to be a plan to deal with a problem. I do not know what the plan is. In my daily responsibilities here, I do not imagine I would be expected to know what the plan is for the Prince George region. There are others here who would be very interested.

The member said that I should know what has to be done. I know what has to be done. We have to clear cut the trees. I do not know where the federal government fits in there in terms of why B.C. needs a cheque? If it clear cuts, takes the logs to the mills, saws them up and then ships them, unless people will be faced with losses.

Ages ago the province could have declared this a disaster or an emergency, but it did not. It was worried that it would face some opposition from people who did not like clear cut logging. It is a shame, but that is the reality. Everyone wants the federal government to cut a cheque. What would it use that money for if it is going to cut down a bunch of trees?

ForestryGovernment Orders

7:40 p.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Madam Chair, I do not think anybody is suggesting that the federal government go in, clear cut and plant trees. We are asking the federal government for some leadership.

A short term strategy that talks about clear cutting enormous amounts of timber to prevent wasting timber fails to recognize things like a disruption in forest plans, straining harvest and milling capacity, over supplying the market, decreasing lumber prices and reducing long term timber supply. It is that long term timber supply that is really critical for many of these communities.

I keep talking about the socio-economic impact on communities. That is why a plan needs to be comprehensive and detailed in its scope. The plan should not just look at the issues around the pine beetle and the immediate impact it is having. That is where the federal government has a role to play in providing leadership and a long term strategy. The plan also should include working closely with the provinces.

Could the member comment on that issue?

ForestryGovernment Orders

7:45 p.m.

Liberal

Roy Cullen Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

Madam Chair, I would contend that our government has shown leadership on this issue. When we talk about leadership, we need to be very specific. This is a salvage logging operation. What is the role for the federal government? I still do not understand what it would be.

If we clear cut certain areas, there must be a plan to replant or to reforest. There has to be a civil-cultural solution. There has to be a whole range of planning in terms of the long term sustainable supply and yield in the forest. That is a long term horizon at which it has to be looked.

We are dealing with a very specific thing where little critters are chewing away at the trees every day because it is not cold enough. When it is not cold enough, they start infecting other trees.

We can talk about all these long term plans, and we need them, but we need to define what role the federal government will play in terms of clear cutting these areas to deal with the mountain pine beetle. For the life of me, I am not sure what the federal role is. I will wait eagerly, as I am sure the minister and the parliamentary secretary will, to see this plan and to see what the federal role should be, according to the province of British Columbia. I am baffled by it.

ForestryGovernment Orders

7:45 p.m.

Conservative

Jay Hill Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC

Madam Chair, if this debate tonight were not so unbelievable for my constituency of Prince George—Peace River, it would be truly sad. It is unbelievable that we have a minister of the Crown, the Minister of Natural Resources, admitting that he has been in that position for year and asking us to show him the plan. That is the type of leadership that unfortunately we have come to see all too often from the Liberal government.

When this minister cannot solve a problem with his own premier in Newfoundland and live up to the commitment the Prime Minister made over the last year to Newfoundland for resource sharing revenues, is it any wonder that he does not have a clue about the scope and nature of the problem in British Columbia? After all, for this government, what happens on the other side of the Rocky Mountains might as well be in China for all it cares.

After all this time, there is no plan. The member who just spoke talked about the role of the federal government. There was a federal government role during the ice storm and it addressed that disaster. There was a federal government role for the floods in the Red River. There was a federal government role when the SARS epidemic hit Toronto. There is a federal government role in addressing this disaster.

In my speech that I will give in a few minutes I will outline a few of the things that government members could consider doing if they cared a whit about British Columbia. If I can think of these things, surely to goodness so can the Liberal government.

ForestryGovernment Orders

7:45 p.m.

Liberal

Roy Cullen Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

Madam Chair, we are again getting confused between defining a problem, and the extent and scope of a problem, and having a plan. I am looking forward to seeing his plan tomorrow morning. If there is a plan and the two members opposite have seen it, tell us, what is in the plan? What is the role for the federal government? I will be sitting with bated breath waiting to hear about that.

ForestryGovernment Orders

7:45 p.m.

Conservative

Jay Hill Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC

Madam Chair, is it indeed a great pleasure that I rise this evening to participate in this take note debate on the mountain pine beetle crisis. This is a debate that is long overdue.

Since 1993 the province of British Columbia has been waging its latest battle against this destructive pest. I have had a very up close and personal look at the devastating path this outbreak has taken. In my constituency of Prince George—Peace River, I did not have to go very far to see the telltale red of the pine stands hit by the mountain pine beetle.

ForestryGovernment Orders

7:45 p.m.

Liberal

R. John Efford Liberal Avalon, NL

The member has not read the plan.

ForestryGovernment Orders

7:45 p.m.

Conservative

Jay Hill Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC

If the hon. Minister of Natural Resources would just hang tough for a little while maybe he will get a little bit of an education before the night is out.

This particular epidemic is one that has gone largely unnoticed by many Canadians. I accept that this is understandable in some areas of the country, especially in Liberal country.

If a person lives a great distance from B.C. and the areas infested with these beetles, or if a person lives in a region not directly affected by events in the logging industry, it is an outbreak that could be overlooked, at least for now. In a very short time, however, no one in this country will escape the economic impact of the mountain pine beetle infestation.

It is the responsibility of the federal government to know about the impending consequences and, more importantly, to take action to mitigate the fallout. The federal Liberal government has neglected or, more accurately, abandoned the softwood industry and the province of British Columbia, and now Alberta, in the midst of this severe crisis.

It is not through a lack of scientific understanding. It is not through a lack of expert advice. The government has been forewarned again and again. In fact, I must comment the scientists at the Canadian Forest Service for the dedication and effort they have directed to this epidemic, despite a severe lack of resources and support from their political masters.

Let us put aside the hollow sympathy and promises that will be heard from the government on this issue as the debate unfolds tonight and just stick to the facts. So far the government has only made a five year commitment of roughly $8 million per year to fight this epidemic. Three years ago, in consultation with the industry, I wrote a letter to the former finance minister, who is now our nation's Prime Minister, telling him that $50 million was needed each and every year over a 10 year period to combat the mountain pine beetle.

What was the response? A grand total of just $40 million over five years, most of it to be spent on research and administration. I can almost hear the automatic response from government members. They will cry poor. They will say the coffers are empty. They will say they just do not have that kind of money. That is simply not the truth and we know it.

Let us look at the numbers. The government has underestimated the federal surplus for each of the past seven years, meaning that Canadians have already been overtaxed by some $61 billion. So not only was the money there, but there was money to spare. It did not go back into taxpayers' wallets, nor did it go toward fighting a devastating epidemic ripping through B.C.'s forests.

It all comes down to a matter of priorities. Roughly around the time that the Prime Minister, in his former role as finance minister, was denying a reasonable level of funding to fight the mountain pine beetle epidemic, his government was diverting $100 million to Liberal friendly ad firms through the sponsorship program.

This brings me to a rather interesting aside about the mountain pine beetle crisis. The former minister of public works, Alfonso Gagliano, was rewarded, for his stewardship of the adscam billions, by being appointed ambassador to Denmark. It struck me as somewhat ironic when I read that the pine beetle infestation has already attacked more than 4.2 million hectares of land, an area roughly the size of Denmark.

When it comes to priorities, the province of British Columbia and the mountain pine beetle epidemic register very low with the government. Following the SARS outbreak, the city of Toronto received $10 million from Ottawa to run tourism ads. Compare that to the $8 million allocated to fight the pine beetle, and an industry that drives 25% of B.C.'s economy, creating 40,000 direct jobs and 120,000 indirect jobs. There are more than 80 communities in B.C.'s interior where forestry is the mainstay of the local economy.

The latest scenarios now predict an 80% pine kill in British Columbia, with the infestation peaking in 2008. The rapid spread of the infestation has taken even pessimists by surprise. This fall it was confirmed that the infestation had spread to three locations near the B.C.-Alberta border. In fact, some people say it has already transcended the border and is in Alberta. That puts another 54,000 direct and indirect jobs in Alberta at risk.

While most Canadians look forward to mild winters, free from the bitter cold, the residents in my riding of Prince George—Peace River are hoping desperately for at least a week of continuous minus 40°C weather. As we have heard tonight, that is what it takes to begin killing these pests. Yet, we have experienced unusually warm winters in northern B.C. and the climatologists advise that we can expect warmer temperatures to come.

The government must become an active leader and participant in a strategy that focuses on three elements. First, the federal government must begin now to provide programs and assistance to woodlot owners, producers and forestry companies. One of the reasons that many Canadians do not immediately recognize the severity of this epidemic is that the economic impact is not yet apparent, but very shortly there will be a sharp decline in the supply of pine with nothing left to replace it.

Right now the annual allowable cuts throughout B.C. have been expanded to get the beetle infested timber out of the forests, a necessary measure in controlling the infestation. In the short term, that means forestry companies and woodlot owners are experiencing a sharp spike in revenues as their harvests rise accordingly.

Let us look ahead a few years. In less than a decade there will be a severe shortage of pine to harvest. It is expected that some communities face a 40% decline in logging. That is when the income will dry up and more forestry jobs will disappear.

All the federal government seems to see at the moment is a healthy boost in its tax revenues. Dr. Laurie Cook, a woodlot owner in my constituency, has informed me that, like many of his colleagues, he is currently experiencing unusually high harvests and higher than usual income. However, all of his harvest areas must be replanted at considerable risk and expense. He wrote:

Future income, when the mountain pine beetle is finished with me, will be minimal to zero for several years, which will be the very time that I will have the [replanting] expenses and will have nothing to write them off against.

Dr. Cook suggests that the federal government initiate an income tax deferral program for those affected by the mountain pine beetle infestation. This is a concept that I support as part of an effort to assist affected producers.

Second, scientific research must continue, without the lion's share being eaten up in administration and bureaucracy. We need to find ways to thwart the spread of the mountain pine beetle. Admittedly, it is not an easy job. Female beetles produce about 75 eggs and enough beetles can emerge from one tree to attack 15 healthy trees. Aggressive measures must continue to harvest the infected trees and other trees weakened by fire and drought, prime breeding grounds for the beetles.

Third, reforestation is a must and the industry cannot bear this cost alone. The Liberal government likes to talk a great deal about its environmental policies, yet where is the money for reforestation as millions of hectares are being harvested to combat the mountain pine beetle? It is called planning and foresight, and once again the government cannot see any further than here and now, and how much tax revenue it can collect.

If it were truly serious about addressing this crisis, the finance minister would have responded to a request made two months ago by the B.C. ministry of forests. He asked for federal help in a 10 year $850 million plan, the plan that we are talking about tonight, to address the mountain pine beetle epidemic. The appeal has been met with silence from Ottawa.

This past August I wrote the industry minister shortly after he was appointed to his job asking him to carry on the fight for B.C.'s lumber industry as he had in his previous job as the CEO of Canfor. I was disappointed not to receive any response, but I am more disappointed for him because it is obvious that he was not able to make his case to his cabinet colleagues. I am disappointed for the thousands of Canadians employed in the softwood lumber industry who had high hopes that he would be able to prompt action from his chosen political party on both the softwood lumber dispute with the United States and the mountain pine beetle crisis.

I am encouraged by the opportunity this evening to bring this crisis to light on the floor of the House of Commons and to air possible solutions. However I seriously question the sincerity of the government's concern for the future of western Canada's forest industry. When the industry minister was the CEO of Canfor at the time the federal government announced its paltry softwood aid package two years ago, he said, “It's not enough and it's coming a little late in the game”.

ForestryGovernment Orders

8 p.m.

Avalon Newfoundland & Labrador

Liberal

R. John Efford LiberalMinister of Natural Resources

Madam Chair, this is a very serious issue but I have seen serious problems before that were addressed with money and no real plan put in place. That was done to Newfoundland and Labrador by the former Conservative government of 1992 during the closure of the fishery, where $2 billion were spent but no actual rebuilding plan was put in place. Today we are in a similar situation to what we were in 1992.

I do understand the seriousness of the situation. We have been working very diligently with the B.C. government and with industry toward a long term plan to solve this problem but it is not an easy one.

I want to ask the hon. member a direct question, because it is a massive, serious issue that will impact negatively on British Columbia for a long time and therefore we need to get our ideas together. At what time in 2004, when the hon. member represented his constituency and his major concern was with the people of British Columbia, did he request all members from British Columbia, myself and all interested parties to sit down and have a discussion?

ForestryGovernment Orders

8 p.m.

Conservative

Jay Hill Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC

Madam Chair, that type of attitude by the minister is why we have western alienation and why we have the feeling in British Columbia. What time? How dare the minister ask me what time I phoned him to try to organize meetings with him?

ForestryGovernment Orders

8 p.m.

Liberal

R. John Efford Liberal Avalon, NL

We had meetings. We had lots of good discussions.

ForestryGovernment Orders

8 p.m.

The Assistant Deputy Chair

Order, please.

ForestryGovernment Orders

8 p.m.

Conservative

Jay Hill Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC

Thank you, Madam Chair, for trying to quell the minister. I sat here and listened to his intervention, such as it was, but now a minister of the crown is not satisfied to sit there and listen to the response. He has to holler and heckle.

I referred in my speech to letters and interventions that I have made where I did not even get a response from the Minister of Industry for months.

ForestryGovernment Orders

8 p.m.

Liberal

R. John Efford Liberal Avalon, NL

Not on one occasion did you call me.

ForestryGovernment Orders

8 p.m.

Conservative

Jay Hill Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC

Madam Chair, he says that I did not phone him, as if he is the only minister over there. Does he not know that his colleague, the Minister of Industry, was appointed by the Prime Minister as the senior Liberal minister for British Columbia to take care of our problems, especially forestry problems?

My hon. colleague from Cariboo—Prince George pointed out that we have the highest regard and respect for the Minister of Industry. He comes from the forest industry. He used to be the CEO of Canfor, one of the largest forest companies in Canada. He was also a very highly successful government servant in the provincial government of British Columbia before that. He knows these issues inside out, but the Minister of Natural Resources stands up tonight and says, “Well, they didn't call me”.

ForestryGovernment Orders

8 p.m.

Liberal

R. John Efford Liberal Avalon, NL

That is not what I said.

ForestryGovernment Orders

8 p.m.

Conservative

Jay Hill Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC

He was just heckling that and now he is saying that is not what he said. Of course that is what he said. He asked me when in 2004 did I call him.