House of Commons Hansard #40 of the 38th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was cards.

Topics

Department of Social Development ActGovernment Orders

11:40 a.m.

Bloc

Marcel Gagnon Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

If that is the case, I had asked to speak.

If we were at questions and comments I could give up my turn. However, since we are resuming debate, I would like to say that I had asked to speak.

Department of Social Development ActGovernment Orders

11:40 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Yes, but the problem is that speakers must alternate, and the NDP had taken the floor in this debate.

The hon. member for Windsor West.

Department of Social Development ActGovernment Orders

11:40 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I want to resume by noting that in my prior work experience I worked for the Association for Persons with Physical Disabilities. We worked quite well with Human Resources Development Canada at that time. I particularly would like to note Yvonne Renaud and Irene Kent, two wonderful public servants who helped to participate in creating the opportunities fund for our area.

The opportunities fund is a good example to show how, if the government does have political will to push an issue forward and appropriate resources are put there, we actually can change lives. More important, we can also even the playing field for people who have traditionally had a lot of barriers put in front of them in regard to being able to reach their fullest potential in Canadian society.

The opportunities fund was an initiative to help persons with disabilities find employment or start a business. What was interesting about this approach, and I do give the government of the day credit for it, is that the government actually did go down to the grassroots levels and talk to all the different associations and groups related to persons with disabilities. We were asked whether we wanted to apply for individual funding or look at a special program that encompassed all of us. We worked with Essex and Kent counties so we covered a lot of geography in southern Ontario. To start with, we had over 20 organizations serving persons with disabilities.

What we were able to come up with, through negotiations with public servants who did their due diligence and also up the line, was support to create two programs.

One program assisted persons to use an incentive program to maximize their opportunities to take advantage of employment opportunities and get employment. The employer got a small dividend to assist a person with a disability get into the employment stream. That would dissipate over time and the person would be taken on as a full time employee. We had a lot of accountability built into the model. The hours were provided first, we checked to make sure that full and gainful employment was happening and then the incentive would follow. That then would dissipate over time as this permanent employment was fixed.

It was a good opportunity for some flexibility at the local level in being able to assist people to actually get to the positions and for them to be effective as individuals, marketing themselves to employers to get positions. We ran a program out of APPD called “Equal Ability”, in which we assisted people in doing that.

At the beginning, there was also a small program to assist persons with disabilities in starting their own businesses. I am proud to say that some of those businesses are still operating today, several years later. Brian Fitzsimmons, for example, is one of our former clients who was very much involved in creating a disc jockey service that now has gone into a full-fledged business. He has now had an opportunity to start a family. This is someone who, before this program, wanted to chase after a dream and had the capabilities to do so, but he needed the structure in place just to help give that push.

Therefore, when we create this agency it is very important to have an understanding that this should be for the facilitation of the not for profit sector. If we get into a mandate that is going to be very constrained, with no flexibility, what we are going to see is the lessening of local involvement and also the elimination of solutions that would otherwise seem palatable to local people and also to local organizations.

I give some credit to the Bloc for being concerned about this interfering in terms of provincial jurisdiction. I think there is some merit there. That is why it is very important for this structure to have not only the provincial flexibility but also the regional flexibility, so we can deal with these social issues in ways that are very important to those local communities and so local problem solving will be influential.

Similarly, following that, I had a chance to work for the Multicultural Council as a youth coordinator. It was a very good program. I would once again like to mention Yvonne Renaud, who helped set it up, as well as Glen Shuba. Once again, those two individuals were very influential at the local level in facilitating the local not for profit sector in being able to bid or to be part of a practice to acquire a Youth Service Canada project. We had over 90% success ratios with those projects in regard to getting young people off the streets and either back to employment or to school.

The problem we had with these programs, which a lot of not for profit organizations are facing with the way the government is handling its initiatives right now, was a lack of sustainability. What the government is requesting from the not for profit sector is unreasonable in the sense that it wants them to get partners, it provides little operational support for ongoing funding, and there are also very short windows. One ends up doing a lot of research, which is fine, and a lot of partner building, which is fine, but the problem is that the programs complete themselves far too quickly and the renewal process is very difficult.

So even when we have those high degrees of success ratios and greater accountability than many private sector organizations as well as government sector organizations, because there is such a limited pool of resources available, it is right down to the penny and it is very bureaucratic to renew those successful programs.

Therefore, my colleagues in the New Democratic Party and I are interested in seeing how this is going to evolve in terms of the actual policies related to the new organization. If the social development Canada act leads to a larger bureaucratic structure that has no connection to and is not going to address the big issues that not for profits are facing or the sustainability of funding for the programs Social Development Canada wants to roll out, then we really will not have done much anyway. That is really important, because we have had very successful programs.

For example, on the homelessness issue in our community we put together a number of initiatives with partners and groups. It was not enough and it still is not enough to deal with the problems we have in my constituency in Windsor and Essex County. Our local groups have done the research and have been very supportive, but due to the way the program has been rolled out we actually had funding delayed, so that announcements and things came later and passed into the area where people were vulnerable in the wintertime.

Those were inappropriate measures when we first rolled out that program. That type of stuff has to stop. There has to be greater sustainability and there have to be more resources available.

I think it is important to look at this context of our social policy and framework as an opportunity to seize the improvement of Canadians' lives. Once again, that has to be done with the prioritization of this department. If it is not provided with the appropriate resources or if it is just going to get the leftovers at the end of the day, then it is not going to be able to fulfill its mandate.

We are looking at very significant opportunities to help different individuals move forward. For example, I know that the environment and some of our Kyoto commitments today provide wonderful opportunities for retraining and also for new employment for some of these different groups and organizations that traditionally have had difficulty in finding employment. That is the type of ingenuity we are going to need.

I would like to point out that it is very important for us to look at some of the categories that the department is going to work on. This is very significant in terms of where the Canadian economy is going and also our demographics.

One of the issues is seniors. This country has yet to address seniors' issues. This is very significant in terms of what is happening to our seniors right now. They have fixed disposable incomes. In Ontario, for example, many municipalities have had to raise property taxes because of downloading by the provincial and federal governments. That really squeezes people on fixed incomes. If their property values have risen as well during that time their taxation would have increased. They really get pinched. As well, oil and home heating costs have gone up, as have insurance costs.

All of those things have really pressed on seniors' disposable incomes, let alone drug costs and health care. We now have a huge population that is moving into the category of vulnerable seniors. The proposed act is also going to have involvement with caregivers. There is another opportunity to alleviate some of the burden on our system if we actually are going to be proactive on it.

However, once again I have seen very little from the government in regard to dealing with those issues and, more important, in regard to tying together all the things necessary to ensure that the disposable income is there for seniors. It is going to be very important to ensure that we have a full-fledged plan. I am not yet convinced that there is the realization of our aging population.

One of the things I am getting support on is my private member's bill to eliminate the notice of compliance, the automatic injunction, for the drug companies. Without any type of evidence whatsoever, without providing anything, the drug companies can get this. After 20 years, they are supposed to have the generic for a drug available for the market, but after 20 years and without any proof they can get an automatic stay for 24 months at a minimum. That prevents another drug from getting into the market, it raises the price of pharmaceuticals and seniors get pinched again.

Are these issues going to be discussed? Is there going to be the mandate for the government to deal with the complications on a broader range of issues? Will the government actually roll out the programs that are going to be sustainable and comprehensive enough to deal with the issues? I have some reservations about that.

At the beginning of my speech, I mentioned the issue of disabilities and my past personal experience with that. It will be interesting to see if this legislation is going to lead to a mandate to create a very upfront and accountable persons with disabilities act that will be effective for Canadians, one that is going to bring us up to standard with the United States and provide for greater rights and access. It also relates to other seniors' issues because mobility and the way we actually go about inclusion in our society are related to an aging population. As people age, they acquire different types of disabilities.

Last, I do want to touch briefly on child care. We New Democrats feel that this is very much a part of our social economy. The member for Sault Ste. Marie has been working on the file very diligently for us. He got out in the summertime to start his campaign across Canada. He started to consult with people.

We believe this is a great opportunity to have the demonstration of an effective program for Canada, a program that will provide some improvements for women and children in our country especially and that also will be very much an important part of our industrial strategy. This has been played out by other OECD nations that have taken advantage of providing better day care to move their economies forward.

I will conclude by saying that I do have some reservations on how the government is going to prioritize the department. That is a big thing, which I am going to be watching. Aside from that, it does leave us with the opportunity to be able to discuss very serious issues that need to be changed for our social economy.

Department of Social Development ActGovernment Orders

11:50 a.m.

Bloc

Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Mr. Speaker, I want to ask a question of my hon. colleague opposite, the member for Windsor West.

Does he not believe, as the Bloc believes, that this bill to establish the Department of Social Development directly interferes in provincial jurisdictions?

I want him to make a few comments about this because we believe this is strictly a provincial jurisdiction.

Department of Social Development ActGovernment Orders

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Mr. Speaker, we believe it is appropriate for the government to be looking at this as a national strategy, but in my context I was validating some of the concerns that the member is expressing in terms of provincial jurisdiction. That is why I specifically focused a lot of time on some of the regional elements I have experienced. I believe the same thing would apply for Quebec. I think that is very important, because to be successful this agency will need to have the ability to communicate effectively and have empowerment for the local communities.

I think it is a very valid concern that is being expressed, because if it is detached or if it is done as a broad brush above Canada with programs and services that are very much silos, then it will be dysfunctional. It will not address the concerns being expressed by the Bloc or by me and I think many other Canadians. As for our social problems, although we may have many things in common, sometimes the solutions to those problems are very diverse and very localized.

I think this also provides us with an opportunity to deal with some of the worst issues of provincial jurisdiction, which are actually very harmful. I point out Ontario's clawing back of the national child care benefit from persons who were receiving social assistance. That was deplorable. It is an example of how sometimes there has to be an oversight of the federal jurisdiction on things that are supposed to be happening for those most impoverished.

That was one of the worst things the provincial government in Ontario was a part of, in both my former municipal and now my federal experience. This bill may give us an opportunity to tackle that issue. If the government is not going to do it from the forefront on the cabinet side, perhaps through the committee and the oversight through this department there might be political pressure from those people who want to see changes for clawbacks that are unacceptable. They might be able to get changes.

The question is well put in terms of concerns. I think there is a role for a national government here, but if the structure is such that it does not involve regions and also if it does not have the required flexibility, then the new changes will be for naught.

Department of Social Development ActGovernment Orders

11:55 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Is the House ready for the question?

Department of Social Development ActGovernment Orders

11:55 a.m.

Some hon. members

Question.

Department of Social Development ActGovernment Orders

11:55 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Department of Social Development ActGovernment Orders

11:55 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Department of Social Development ActGovernment Orders

11:55 a.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Department of Social Development ActGovernment Orders

11:55 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Department of Social Development ActGovernment Orders

11:55 a.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Department of Social Development ActGovernment Orders

11:55 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

All those opposed will please say nay.

Department of Social Development ActGovernment Orders

11:55 a.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Department of Social Development ActGovernment Orders

11:55 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

Department of Social Development ActGovernment Orders

11:55 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Call in the members.

And the bells having rung:

Department of Social Development ActGovernment Orders

11:55 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The chief government whip has asked that the recorded division on the motion be deferred until 3:00 p.m. today.

Remote Sensing Space Systems ActGovernment Orders

11:55 a.m.

Eglinton—Lawrence Ontario

Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberalfor the Minister of Foreign Affairs

moved that Bill C-25, an act governing the operation of remote sensing space systems, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Remote Sensing Space Systems ActGovernment Orders

11:55 a.m.

Pickering—Scarborough East Ontario

Liberal

Dan McTeague LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased today to rise for the first time to speak at second reading of the bill on remote sensing space systems.

On Tuesday, November 23 the Government of Canada introduced legislation to regulate the operation of remote sensing space systems, satellites that can take detailed pictures of the earth and objects upon its surface.

Today I will explain why the proposed remote sensing space systems act is so important to Canada, to Canadians and to our friends abroad, both in terms of our own security and our international partnerships.

Members know that Canada became a world leader in remote sensing of the earth from outer space when it launched in 1995 its first remote sensing satellite system, the government operated RADARSAT-1.

A myriad of civilian applications for remote sensing satellites have since been developed in Canada. These include, for example, those for managing natural resources, monitoring the environment, and providing coastal surveillance and ice mapping services. Today Canadians service about 15% of the world's satellite-derived remote sensing market. Remote sensing contributes a meaningful portion of the annual $2 billion space industry.

In its 10th year of operation, RADARSAT-1 is still the most capable civilian synthetic aperture radar satellite in orbit. When RADARSAT-2, an even more capable Canadian system is launched by private owners and operators, it will move us that much further ahead of the competition. This proposed legislation seeks to maintain that Canadian leadership position.

At the beginning of the space age, when every launch of a satellite could result either in its noble ascent into space or its ignoble return to earth, only governments could afford such risky and costly adventures and activities. Remote sensing or imaging satellites were first developed and built in government laboratories. Leading edge development was done, for the most part, in secrecy.

Today however the exploration of space is rapidly becoming the exploitation of space. Wonderful achievements lie within the reach of private citizens, individual and corporate. These innovators can tap into vast stockpiles of commercially available technology based on expenditure of private financial capital. As a result, high performance remote sensing satellite data is widely available today, even more precise and useful than the data produced by the military reconnaissance satellites that helped to maintain the peace during the Cold War.

The security environment today has likewise changed in many different ways. Once, for example, the two rival superpowers observed each other using satellites in outer space. Today Canadians face new asymmetric threats from enemies that might seek to use the commercial availability of satellite imagery. Our security system for satellites must evolve in response to such developments.

Furthermore, Canada is a nation that relies on international cooperation to fill the space ambitions of its government and its private citizens. To help the Canadian private sector continue to pursue these important ambitions, a transparent regulatory regime is essential to securing access to sensitive technology and launch services. Gaining access to such technology and services often requires government guarantees to the supplier nation. The remote sensing space systems act will allow the government to provide these security guarantees to the benefit of Canadian business engage in activities of strategic value to our nation.

Let me introduce the contents of the bill for all members present. The remote sensing space systems act establishes a regulatory regime for remote sensing satellites, the facilities used to operate them, and the data and products produced by them. The regime licenses the operator of a remote sensing satellite system in Canada as well as Canadian operators who operate such systems outside of Canada.

The act, plus the regulations and licences issued pursuant to it, will set out conditions permitting the fullest beneficial uses of such satellites and the data they produce. At the same time, they will ensure that such operations are not injurious to our national security, harmful to the defence of Canada, or prejudicial to the safety of Canadian forces. We will also want to ensure that they will not be deleterious to Canada's conduct of international relations or at least inconsistent with Canada's international obligations.

The act requires licensees to make adequate provision for the protection of the environment and public safety through a disposal plan for the satellite at the end of its operational life. This plan is particularly important in protecting persons and property when satellites leave the earth's orbit. This approach will also help us to sustain our access to increasingly crowded orbits by reducing the chance of creating potentially dangerous space debris.

The operation of remote sensing space systems is inherently international in scope. Foreign partners may seek to participate in the operation of a Canadian licensed system. The proposed act makes provision for them to do so, but only in ways that promote and protect, and are consistent with Canada's security, defence and foreign policy interests. This is carried out by setting conditions for a licensee in the conduct of certain sensitive activities.

This act is consequently good for Canadian jobs at home, for trade in services abroad, and for building profitable relationships with our international partners overseas. It is important to note that the act does not reach down to touch customers of the licensee. This liberates those who legally receive data or products to enhance such products for their own use or to produce value-added products for subsequent re-sale.

This was done by design and with purpose. The myriad end-users of such data do not wish to be burdened and do not need to be burdened by unnecessary regulation.

Canada's security, defence and foreign policy interests do not require us to so burden them, as long as the flow of data and products are controlled by the licensee. This way we can permit the fullest access to the high value data and products produced by our cutting edge satellites. That is good for small and medium enterprises in Canada, and for market penetration abroad.

The bill also establishes means to enforce the act effectively and efficiently. Powers are established for inspectors to perform audits to ensure that satellite operations and data protection plans approved under the licence are being carried out. Compliance provisions are predicated largely on a system of administrative monetary penalties prescribed by regulation. To make the act more user-friendly, however, the bill also contains a new feature, namely, compliance agreements.

I will explain this. Should a licensee be given notice of a violation by an enforcement officer, it has the option to enter into an agreement to bring operations into compliance, in lieu of paying the penalty and without admitting a violation. In this way, the proposed act would encourage a licensee to continuously improve the security of its operations with investments rather than pay fines for violations.

Rarely does a regulatory regime accord so well with the business models and practices of the industry being regulated. The government is committed to smart regulation and the bill is a leading example of that very precise commitment.

The act would also grant certain special powers to certain ministers under emergency circumstances. The first such power covers the interruption of normal service. The second involves invoking priority access overriding normal service.

The government can foresee the need to interrupt or restrict a provision of data or products under urgent conditions. It is, for example, prudent not to permit adversaries to use our own systems against the men, women, equipment and facilities of our Canadian Forces acting in our defence. Consequently, the Minister of National Defence is granted the ability under the proposed act to order the interruption of services for the defence of Canada or to protect Canadian Forces at home or abroad.

Similarly, the foreign affairs minister is granted powers under the act to interrupt normal service when a continuation of operation by a licensed system would be injurious to Canada's conduct of international relations. For example, should the defence provisions of the NATO charter be invoked, the Minister of Foreign Affairs would have the necessary authority to assist in the protection of NATO forces. The use of these special powers is expected to be a rare event and can only be exercised by ministers of foreign affairs and national defence.

The United States of America has had similar powers available to it since 1992 under its landsat remote sensing act, but has never once invoked them. Prudence dictates, however, that such powers be available to the Government of Canada in a time of need.

The ordering of priority access service to satellite data is the reverse side of an order interrupting normal service. This power enables certain ministers or their deputies to “jump the order queue” at times when it is necessary to support a government response to emergencies or other urgent circumstances. The Ministers of National Defence, Foreign Affairs and Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness are granted these special powers under the proposed act.

Of particular value is the ability of priority access to assist in emergency preparedness or critical infrastructure protection. It is important to stress that the government would use regular commercial services to fulfill its needs where possible, even during crises, but it is wise to keep powers in reserve, to guarantee the availability of imagery when emergency so demands.

With that introduction, I call on all my colleagues to pass the legislation and thereby authorize the implementation of these prudent and balanced measures. When high performance remote sensing satellites can produce data of military significance, the need for a reasonable degree of regulation to protect our own interests here in Canada is patently clear.

We have a responsibility to ensure that these capabilities do not harm our own security, defence or foreign policy interests, and those shared with our allies.

At the same time, however, I want to ensure that members understand the purpose of the bill. It is to modernize. We hope that our thinking on this bill will continue to be productive and will not interfere with the interests of the private sector while understanding the realities of the world in which we live.

Remote Sensing Space Systems ActGovernment Orders

12:10 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Mr. Speaker, I listened very carefully to the hon. member's remarks about this bill.

We are not denying the importance of legislating in this area. In fact, with increasing aerospace traffic, we believe now is the time to act. Furthermore, the government needs to put a bit of order in all of this and, more importantly, provide itself with legislative support in this area.

Nevertheless, I do not see anything in this bill on provincial jurisdictions. Let me explain.

The bill contains a number of worthwhile items, such as the management of natural resources, farm products, and environmental disasters. These are three fields under provincial jurisdiction. We know that provinces and governments can go through private companies with commercial satellite systems to obtain data.

However, I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs to explain how this bill respects provincial jurisdiction. For example, could the Government of Quebec or the Government of Ontario access this data if satellite monitoring took place on their territory, and, more importantly, within areas, as I have just pointed out, clearly under provincial jurisdiction?

Are there provisions in the bill that deal with this matter? If not, is the minister open to ensuring, during consideration of the bill, that provinces have access to this data, if this data is collected on their territory and within areas of provincial jurisdiction?

Remote Sensing Space Systems ActGovernment Orders

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Mr. Speaker, the proposed regulations would only affect a national, or federal, area of jurisdiction. As for satellites, their operation will be regulated because, as I explained earlier, the government transferred their ownership to the private sector.

I thank the hon. member for his question.

Six years ago, the federal government owned those satellites. In just a matter of a few years, they were transferred to the private sector. Because of this transfer, we have to make changes and ensure that the spinoffs of RADARSAT-2 are not used contrary to public or defence interest, as I have already explained.

As it relates to provincial jurisdiction, telecommunications is indeed a federal responsibility. If, however, the owners of the satellite are entered into civil arrangements through business, then of course this does fall into provincial jurisdiction. That is not something that this bill treats, nor should it treat. Federal jurisdiction over the skies is well understood and well based in constitutional law as being a matter which is a federal jurisdiction exclusively.

Remote Sensing Space Systems ActGovernment Orders

12:10 p.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak to Bill C-25 entitled an Act governing the operation of remote sensing spacesystems.

Space is a very popular issue these days. It is being raised today thanks to this bill governing the operation of remote sensing space systems that are, in fact, commercially owned.

First, I would inform the House that the Bloc Quebecois is in favour of a bill dealing with this issue. It is a very complex issue, with various levels of difficulty. I recognize that the government and the various departments involved tried to do their homework here, but from our point of view, in the opposition, this bills raises some concerns. In fact, this is the first bill of its kind since I was elected to this House. I do not believe we have had any other bill before the House regulating the operation of devices, equipment and satellites in space. I think we are considering such a bill for the first time in Canada because a commercially owned satellite will be launched by the end of 2005 or in early 2006.

We know that, in the United States, there have been debates in the Congress and in the Senate for a number of years. However, I was interested in reading a fact that I think may also be of interest to viewers or readers. Until 1983, it was practically impossible for the Americans, who already wanted to ensure their pre-eminence in space, to think that satellites, including remote sensing satellites, could be privately owned. Knowledge and use of space were so linked to the national role of defence or pre-eminence that it was the American government that had to capture it or settle there.

However, at the time when other countries had sent commercial satellites into space, and the United States had also started to try to reduce the deficit, specifically under Bill Clinton, they began to let high resolution commercial satellites be developed. Until then, there were commercial satellites, but not high resolution ones. We find ourselves with RADARSAT-2, a high resolution commercial satellite.

We appreciate the fact that the Canadian government was also reluctant. The drafting of the bill clearly indicates to us that the government feels responsible, in some way, for the use of these satellites that might still play a “military or defence” role. I read, for example, that during the Gulf war, French satellites that were selling images to both sides suddenly withdrew these images, because they were playing a role in the war. There is nothing to prevent us from thinking that this could happen again.

This explains the difficult balance found in the bill between the national prerogatives of security and defence and commercial freedom, despite the government's desire to plan for the basics.

This is one of the reasons why I told you that we supported the adoption of an act. However, we are waiting with great interest to see what the committee has done because that will help us better understand how these responsibilities can work on the national, security and foreign affairs levels, and at the same time control a commercial use. And I have still not talked about the provinces.

I will give you an example of the powers the government wants to have. Clause 10(1) says:

The Minister may on the Minister’s own initiative, if the Minister is satisfied that the amendment is desirable, having regard to national security, the defence of Canada, the safety of Canadian Forces, Canada’s conduct of international relations, Canada’s international obligations and any prescribed factors, amend a licence with respect to any condition--

A little further, clause 13(1) says that the minister may, on the minister's own initiative, and I quote:

The Minister may make an order requiring a person whose licence is suspended or cancelled or has expired to take any measures related to the operation of the remote sensing space system that the Minister considers advisable--

Clause 14(1) says:

The Minister may make an order requiring a licensee to interrupt or restrict, for the period specified in the order, any operation, including the provision of any service--

However, at the end of the day, it does not really make itself accountable for the costs this could generate. So, I suppose that companies will want to take action and say, “Yes, but if we are forced to interrupt our operations and not proceed with orders, we will have to be compensated accordingly.”

The fact is that I have sought to show that there will be a need to check this whole aspect of using satellites that are allowed to be operated as commercial satellites for national purposes of security and defence.

The second aspect one wonders about has to do with the priority access that the government gives itself. Allow me to read an excerpt to explain what I mean.

By the way, I know that the parliamentary secretary has certainly read and studied the bill. However, he knows that its reading will not be easy, nor its interpretation. So, let me give you a little idea.

Subclause 8(4) of the bill reads as follows:

Every licence is subject to the conditions referred to in subsections (5) to (7), any prescribed conditions and the following conditions:

I now move on to paragraph c ). It is worth reading because it is important, including for provinces:

c) that raw data and remote sensing products from the system about the territory of any country—but not including data or products that have been enhanced or to which some value has been added—be made available to the government of that country within a reasonable time, on reasonable terms and for so long as the data or products have not been disposed of, but subject to any licence conditions under subsection (6) or (7) applicable to their communication or provision;

I would like to say to the hon. parliamentary secretary that we can understand that all is not perfectly clear. But what is clear is that any raw data and remote sensing products collected by the owners of satellite systems—we can think of RADARSAT-2—that are images taken over the territory of another country will have to be made available to the government of that country for so long as they have not been disposed of.

Let me put the question to the hon. parliamentary secretary. If this is how it is for territory subject to remote sensing, why would it not be the same for the territory of provinces? I think that this is an important question, and we say yes. Very good reasons will have to be put forward to convince us otherwise.

Let me continue to show how complex this bill is. The government's own press release of November 23 states:

Canadian remote sensing satellites provide important information on the distribution of groundwater, minerals and oil and gas deposits, oceanography, cartography, geology, hydrology, agriculture, forestry and disaster response and mitigation.

The areas listed are, in large part, areas of provincial jurisdiction. There are even some governed by provincial legislation. So, the satellites could provide information for sale to private buyers, who could use this information to defend themselves against a provincial government that does not have the same data. Or else, the province would have to buy everything, which makes no sense. There is a very practical problem here.

I repeat that this is what the release says. We know that the main areas where these images and data will be collected are areas of provincial jurisdiction. Now, moving from security purposes to commercial purposes.

The release reads further:

Natural resource industries currently make use of satellite images to monitor crops and forest growth and to gain information about groundwater, minerals and oil and gas deposits.

I was thinking of Hydro-Québec's retention basins, that they have always wanted to keep secret. From what I understand, these high-definition images could expose the secret, without Hydro-Québec even knowing.

You will understand that we are at the questioning stage, but we need to take time on it. Fortunately we know that RADARSAT will be not launched before the end of 2005. However, since this will be the first time there will be regulations governing such a situation, we will need to really sit down and decide what to do.

There is one dimension that is not affected in the least, though it seems to me that it could be. The bill has been created on the occasion of the launching of RADARSAT-2, yet I understand that this is not the only thing it will cover. It will certainly be of use to other private entrepreneurs who would like to get into this field.

Even if this is remote sensing equipment, coupling infrared with this improved definition could provide them with images that would start to involve personal information, and there is nothing on this in the bill. An answer to that question will certainly be needed.

While we are dealing with space, we also need to look at the international aspect of these commercial remote sensing satellites. My clever researcher has found a text for me on the Foreign Affairs site, one that is most interesting, although it is indicated that the views are those of the author alone. This is a paper on the legal aspects of satellites and remote sensing.

The author portrays the situation by putting countries in three groups. The first group is made of only one country, the United States, which is way ahead of everybody else and is expected to have 1,000 commercial satellites in space within 10 years. Therefore, space defence will become even more important to them.

The second group is made up of countries like France, some member states of the European Union, India and China that have evolved technologically and might collectively, if not individually, use all their powers in the areas of space and remote sensing.

And then there are the so-called rogue states that are interested in upsetting the order that we want to institute there. Based on this, the author, Mr. Salin, comes up with the following proposal:

For now, it is interesting to note that a club of about ten countries control high resolution remote sensing. They include the United States, Russia, France, Canada, Japan, China, Israel and India.

I remind the House that the United States is in the first group. He continues:

It is still possible to try to get them to reach an agreement governing the further development of this market in everyone's interest.

He suggests:

Canada could play a leadership role and take advantage of its friendly relations with all of these countries.

He adds:

We could have an agreement, like the one banning anti-personnel landmines, that would govern the commercialization of high resolution images so that it follows some rules...

I see that my time is up and, since we are no longer the official opposition, I will yield the floor to my hon. colleague.

I think I have explained why we are in favour of some kind of legislation, but we will have a lot of questions to ask in committee. Lastly, we will wait until third reading to take a general position on this bill.

Remote Sensing Space Systems ActGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

Pickering—Scarborough East Ontario

Liberal

Dan McTeague LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the member, who also is Bloc critic for foreign affairs. She is quite able and she has obviously raised several questions to advance this matter before the committee. Her remarks are laudable. I must stress, yet again, that we will respond in adequate fashion to the member's concerns.

I would like to say and stress something regarding our remarks in relation to the provision of information to foreign countries. It is simply because we have a lot of ties with other countries. We have signed agreements with them under which we have an obligation to share information.

As to provincial jurisdictions, the other member of the Bloc already asked me that question a while ago. I stressed to him that when it concerns the provinces—because it has to do with commercialization when it is a question of the private sector—they still have an ability to find and get the answers that they want. However, we have no responsibilities when it comes to other countries.

Let me be perfectly clear on this. Canada has a number of treaty obligations with other nations as a satellite may pass over and inadvertently, for whatever reason, take pictures of another nation. We will of course share that with another nation.

While the hon. member will have some very valid questions to ask at the committee concerning the prospect of pictures being taken of something that falls within provincial jurisdiction, it could even fall within municipal jurisdiction depending on the circumstances.

I think we have done this already with respect to RADARSAT-1. There is already usage. There is custom. There is convention. This bill is really to deal with macro issues, international issues and defence issues, particularly in light of the fact that we have privatized the sector. I take the hon. member's point that these are important questions which we will have to debate and work with each other on at committee.

I am obviously awaiting the answer and I will pass it on to the Bloc member. There is also the matter of privacy. It is understood that this does not affect the question of the privacy of people in Canada.

Remote Sensing Space Systems ActGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

Madam Speaker, I would like to say to the parliamentary secretary that of course Canada has agreements with other countries, and from these agreements certain obligations arise. Still, it seems to me that the provinces, which are the parts of this country, can expect Canada to recognize that it also has obligations with respect to the provincial administrations.

I am not satisfied to hear that with RADARSAT-1 there were certain conventions and habits. From now on, it will not be the government that manages and operates it, and these issues must be clarified in the interest of the provinces. It must not be forgotten that RADARSAT-2, as I understand it, is technologically more advanced than RADARSAT-1.

Therefore, the data could be even more strategic for the provinces because then we are getting into the commercial aspect.

Remote Sensing Space Systems ActGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Madam Speaker, we will certainly have an opportunity to discuss the subject of commercialization.

Commercialization of this product will allow us an opportunity to work with the provinces cooperatively.

Satellite technology, as we all know, works above the earth. It works in terms of being able to move from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. It would be ultra vires, to say the least, not to recognize it is profound, distinct, federal, national, but that is not to say that we will not work with the provinces.

Another thing I want to point out for the hon. member is with regard to her concern about the private use of data produced. She referred to this earlier. I want her to know that it will not regulate per se the private use of data. The legislation licenses the operator of the remote sensing satellite to protect the security and of course our foreign policy and defence issues that I raised a little earlier. It will not, however, apply to how end users make use of satellite data and images and create value added products.

Therefore, it really does not fall into the domain of privacy or to a great extent into the area that she is concerned about, provincial jurisdiction. We could probably get a better clarification at committee. I look forward to that.