Debates of March 10th, 2004

Haiti

[Jean Augustine, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Mr. Chair, in response I can use something which is quite close to home. When things happen in our neighbourhoods, they are influenced by what goes on in the neighbourhood. Haiti is in the neighbourhood of so many of the Caricom people and is part of the Caricom family.

From my work, interests and conversations with people who are from the region, especially in the Toronto area, I have learned that there is much pain and hope for Caricom as it sets things on the table. There are expectations as to how some resolutions could have taken place. There is a sense at this point in time that they need to hear from Canada and they need us to stand with them as they deal with the present issue. It is something in the neighbourhood. It is in the interest of the entire Caricom region that there be peace and a resolution to this conflict.

We are in the year that the United Nations has declared as freedom from slavery. The history of Haiti is an interesting one. It is very interesting for those of us who have not read about the struggles that have taken place. The Haitian people have gone through quite a bit over many years.

Whatever Canada can do and the commitments we have made at this point in time are very important. We have to move that forward. The Minister of Foreign Affairs has a responsibility with all the Caricom nations to continue the conversation, to reach out with a hand of friendship and to give them the assurance that Canada is standing with them at this point when there is stress in all the Caricom states.

[Jay Hill, Canadian Alliance, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Chair, despite the late hour, it is a pleasure for me to rise to say a few words on the subject of Haiti, and more specifically in my role as the national defence critic for the official opposition, the Conservative Party of Canada.

A number of my colleagues in the Conservative Party have addressed this motion tonight. Obviously they are on record as speaking for the party in support of doing what we can as a nation to assist the Haitian people during this time of strife, trouble, turmoil and, regrettably, bloodshed in their country.

Over the last week or so I have said many times during interviews that this has become a front page story in Canada. I believe that all Canadians have a lot of empathy for people and a lot of sympathy for those who are not able to protect themselves and who, through no fault of their own, find themselves in a situation where their nation is torn apart, in this case by civil war between warring factions.

We cannot lose sight of the fact that most of the people are caught in the middle of this. They are innocent people who probably do not ask anything more of life than the average Canadian does. We just want a peaceful place to work, a decent job and a decent income to provide a decent way of life for ourselves, our spouses and our families. I suspect that is true for most of the Haitian people as well. Unfortunately, they are caught in the middle of this political unrest in their country. Our hearts go out to the Haitian people, as speakers from all parties in the House of Commons have said during this debate tonight.

In my role as defence critic, I also want to speak on behalf of our young men and women in the armed forces because I have a lot of concern for them. I have a lot of sympathy for them when they, like the Haitian people, are thrust into a situation not of their own making. The government made a commitment and they have been called upon to go into harm's way.

Many people can say that they knew that when they signed up for the forces. That is true and our armed forces personnel go willingly. They recognize that it is a part of the job, part of the service they committed to on behalf of Canada and indeed for other countries in many cases. They go where they are sent and for all intents and purposes they go uncomplainingly and with what meagre resources they are provided with. They go there and they do an exemplary job. Regardless of partisan politics, I think all members of the House recognize the tremendous contribution that our young men and women make repeatedly in so-called hot spots around the world.

I am concerned about them. It seems to many of us, and not only for those of us in this chamber but I suspect for Canadians across our land, that the government makes commitments but does not explain to Canadians what criteria those commitments are based upon. We see that again with this latest deployment of roughly 450 troops to Haiti.

In speaking to the motion earlier this evening, our foreign affairs critic made reference to that. He asked the government to explain what criteria it uses to judge turmoil in other countries when it comes to the decision to commit our young men and women to these hot spots and to go into harm's way, whether it is Bosnia, the Golan Heights, Sierra Leone in Africa, Afghanistan and now Haiti. Of course, preceding those examples is an almost endless list of countries that we have been involved in dating back to just after the second world war.

I think that what Canadians are asking their government for is some clear indication of what foreign policy these types of decisions are based upon. As I said at the outset of my remarks, it is not that the average Canadian does not have a lot of sympathy for those people in wartorn countries around the world who find themselves in perilous situations. All of us as members of Parliament hear from our constituents all the time that they indeed do have a lot of sympathy for these other peoples. They want to help and they want to have our armed forces over there helping.

Earlier this evening during the to and fro and give and take of this debate, I talked about the budget. Another concern I have is one that has been well identified, not only by the Conservative Party of Canada but even by the government's own members who sit on the House of Commons Standing Committee for National Defence and Veterans Affairs and the committee from the other place. It has been well identified, both within Parliament and by many outside organizations that have done studies over the last while, that our military in this country is underfunded.

That is why the Conservative Party of Canada is strongly committed to increasing the funds to be made available, as just one of the recommendations and commitments we make to the Canadian people heading into the next election campaign. It is our commitment to spend substantially more on our Canadian Forces. While the Prime Minister has made a similar commitment since coming into office, we have yet to see it. Hopefully we will see it when the budget is tabled in this place in a couple of weeks' time.

I found it interesting when I was asking questions of the Minister of National Defence earlier this evening in the debate. When I asked him where the money would be coming from, he used the number $38 million as an estimate for the 90 day deployment of some 450 troops. Obviously we all respect the fact that it is an estimate. Hopefully it is an estimate that is a lot closer than the one this same Liberal government used for what it would cost taxpayers for the gun registry.

Whatever the case may be, we have to understand that this is going to cost money. My concern as the defence critic, as someone who is trying to look out for the interests of our men and women in the armed forces, is that this money should not come out of the existing budget of the Canadian Forces, which is already stretched to the limit. That has been said repeatedly this evening and, as I said, has been highlighted in many studies over the past couple of years. The forces need a lot more money, not less. I am hopeful that whatever the deployment is going to cost we will see that outside of DND's budget when the government tables its budget in the coming weeks.

I want to close on this note. There is another promise that I hope the Prime Minister intends to keep. He has repeatedly said in the past few months that he does not intend, like his predecessor Jean Chrétien did, to send our young men and women into harm's way without the best possible equipment. That is the term he has used. Certainly we on this side of the House support that, but I have not yet seen him back that up with the commitment. That is what we are looking for in the budget.

Pardon me if I am a just a little cynical, because this is the same individual who as finance minister cut some $20 billion cumulatively over the last decade from the Department of National Defence budget. Now he is saying he wants to put some of that back in so the forces can have the best possible equipment. I am certainly in support of that. Many members are, from both sides of the House. Hopefully the Liberal government really does mean what it says and will do what it says in this regard.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Chair, I think the previous member's speech is a very thoughtful and positive addition to the evening.

I would like to give one personal opinion in relation to the cuts in defence, having been chair of our defence caucus for some time. I am a big supporter of defence. Defence should be well equipped and funded. But I also could not stand by as we were losing more potential to help our defence through paying interest payments on the debt. The cross-governmental discipline that allowed us to get out of deficit and to make the increasing contributions we are now making to defence, education and health care was a necessary step.

I want to speak for my constituency at the moment too. One of my constituents in particular was a bit concerned that the president may not have voluntarily left office, so I was very gratified to hear UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan outline the situation, that being that the president had resigned and was replaced through the constitution in the normal course of events.

I was also very happy to see our type of action, both with troops and with aid.

One of the three pillars of the new Prime Minister's philosophy is ensuring that Canada lives up to our potential in the world. We are well respected and can play a lot of roles. I was really proud in seeing our reaction to this crisis as a step in that direction, because I did not think we had the very significant resources that we have contributed in troops and of course in increasing our aid, which has been increasing gradually over recent years. That quick action of aid to Haiti was very gratifying. In playing that role of our place in the world I think we are admired for it and people expect it of us. I hope we can continue to work to protect that aid to other countries from those on the ground who would try to use it for other purposes.

Haiti is the poorest country in this hemisphere. Canada has and will continue to work with Haitians to address this challenge. We will stand by the people of Haiti. They can count on Canada. Yesterday, in response to Secretary-General Annan's appeal for further aid for Haiti, Canada immediately pledged $5 million.

Canada is deeply concerned about the lack of security, stability and democracy in Haiti. Canada has a longstanding relationship with Haiti and a long term commitment to assist Haitians as they struggle to put in place the conditions that support sustainable development, that is, social, political, economic and environmentally sustainable development that will lead to lasting peace and prosperity.

This is a complex endeavour. Building capacity in governance, democracy and security is not as simple as building a school or a hospital. It takes time. It takes perseverance. It requires us to make a commitment to long term change and to learn, as we work, about what will succeed in showing long term results.

It is essential to be able to count on solid partnerships in order to address the complex problems surrounding the development of Haiti. The government is well aware that we need to work closely with each other, here in Canada, within the international community, and with the developing countries, if we are to achieve lasting change and contribute to making the world a better place.

The Canadian International Development Agency, CIDA, is working in close conjunction with National Defence and Foreign Affairs in order to help deal with the present humanitarian crisis and to strengthen security, human rights, democracy and good governance in that country.

As the Minister of National Defence has explained, Canada will be deploying another 450 soldiers in order to help restore peace in Haiti as part of the international force.

As the Minister of Foreign Affairs has said, Canada is working closely with its international partners through the United Nations, and with like-minded states such as our partners in the Organization of American States, the OAS, and Caricom, the Caribbean common market.

Now that constitutional order is beginning to be restored in Haiti, the Government of Canada will be working closely with the president and the interim prime minister. The commitment of Haitian leaders to a true reform will be what brings about change, restoration of an atmosphere of lasting security, stability and sustainable development.

That said, security alone cannot bring peace and prosperity for the long term.

The Haitian people cannot feel secure when they are living in poverty and without access to health care, education, employment and in conditions of environmental degradation.

CIDA's role is to help people gain access to the means to build better lives for themselves, their families and their communities.

That access must be fairly distributed or its unfairness risks fostering more rivalry, hostility and conflict. Efforts to pursue sustainable paths of development must also be about respect and equity, justice and democracy, and fair access to resources.

Countries in crisis, like Haiti, require the support of the international community in leading and managing the development process. In this period of transition, it will be essential that an equitable, coordinated division of labour is worked out between the UN and the OAS, with each organization taking responsibility for the areas that are best suited to its strengths and capacities.

Canada is using new international guidelines to make short term progress in the area of development, while also providing the government with the tools to allow it to fulfill this critical long term responsibility.

This is an approach based on flexibility and open dialogue, which is aimed at identifying the stakeholders who will be able to bring about the change, and also other partners from civil society, the private sector and the various levels of government.

In the short term, we want to restore security and meet fundamental needs.

In the long term, Canada will focus its efforts on six priorities: basic education, health, economic development, human rights, justice and security.

Canada must respect its commitment to restore peace, security, stability and prosperity in Haiti. We cannot ignore what is going on in our neighbourhood, in the Americas, and we must turn our good intentions into concrete action.

The minister has spoken about the importance of stability in Haiti for the entire region. I want to reiterate what continuing instability means for Haitians and potentially for others if this situation spreads to other countries.

It means that people my age in Haiti will have outlived their life expectancy. It means that more people, especially children, will sicken and die because of drinking unsafe water. It means that more parents will be unable to properly nourish their children.

Canadians want to make a difference in the world. We are making a difference in Haiti. Over the last few years thousands of Canadians have worked in Haiti.

Thanks to Canadian assistance since the mid-1990s more than three million children have been vaccinated and about 5,000 women have received support in family planning, reproductive health, human rights and political life. The 35,000 people of Jacmel inhabit the only city in Haiti that has, thanks to Canadian aid, electricity 24 hours a day.

There is still a very long way to go in seeing Haiti out of the current crisis and well on the road to sustainable development and prosperity. We must continue our important work in Haiti. We must strengthen our partnerships with all partners in Haiti, in Canada and internationally, who are working for the same goals.

[Jay Hill, Canadian Alliance, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Chair, I would like to commend my colleague from the Yukon for a well thought out speech. I want to take exception though to a remark he made right at the start of his speech.

I think he left the impression with those viewing the debate at home this evening that somehow the Prime Minister, when he was finance minister and the Liberal government had to make the cuts to the military that I was referring to in my remarks. I think he said something along the lines that the cuts were necessary if we were going to balance the budget and then start running surpluses to pay down the debt, to make the commitments that all Canadians want to see to health care and education and those types of programs.

While we too are committed to this, when I was sitting listening to him, I was reminded of something that I have often said to my children. I have three children, two girls and a boy, who are the ripe old ages of 25, 23 and my son is 21. Ever since they were toddlers I tried to impress upon them that life is all about choices. Each one of us makes choices when we get out of bed in the morning. When we get out of bed we can choose to get up with a smile and face the day with a smile on our faces or we can choose to get up and be grumpy, and probably the day will be a reflection of the mood that we are in.

We all make choices. I would submit that the government and the Prime Minister when he was finance minister made some choices. They chose to spend, and the number is now upwards of $2 billion, on a gun registry, to register duck hunters' firearms. The Liberals chose to spend a lot of money whether it was on sponsorship programs or HRDC boondoggles.

Over the last 10 years that I have been here and that the government has been in power, I would submit it has made some bad choices. I would hope that the hon. member recognizes that as well. I would hope that we are not going to see some of those bad choices when we see the budget, for example, in a week or two. I hope that we will see the government committed to putting the money back into not only our military but into supporting missions like the one we have now undertaken to Haiti, so that we can do the job that all Canadians want us to do.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Mr. Chair, of course as the member knows, we disagree on the distribution of expenses, but I would say that he is correct that the government made choices.

I would look to the choices it made, to the very large increases in health care which is such a priority for Canadians. I would look to the choices it made when it established the millennium fund which is the largest scholarship program in the country's history. Canadians put such an important emphasis on education.

I would look to the huge increases in research and development so that Canada can stay in touch with the knowledge based economy. I would look to the largest, and named the most important, recent social program in history, the child tax benefit and the increase in that.

I would look to the choice made to pay down the debt and the choice to make the largest tax cut in history. By making those choices, Canadian companies can then compete with other countries in the world and prosper enough to hire more employees, and we can make the contributions to health care, education and defence.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Mr. Chair, I would like to thank the member for Yukon for his comments and pick up on the interaction between him and the member for Prince George—Peace River.

Governments do make choices; that is absolutely right. Although all of us in this House are troubled with the recent difficulties with the sponsorship program, I wonder if we sometimes forget the fiscal performance of the government over the last 10 years.

We eliminated a $42 billion deficit. We are actually considered among the nations of the world as the fiscal miracle by eliminating a deficit of $42 billion in three years, by paying down over $46 billion in debt. That saves taxpayers over $3 billion annually as an annuity in perpetuity. We have the strongest job creation record in the G-7. We have consistently outperformed the U.S. economy in terms of job creation. We have had stable pricing and low inflation.

Governments do make choices. Our government in 1993 decided that we would put the fiscal house in order. That is what the government set out to do and it is what the government did. This of course never justifies the mismanagement of taxpayers' dollars which has happened from time to time. Our government has resolved itself to deal with those problems.

I am sure because of the actions we have taken in the past we will be able to redeploy resources to national defence. We will be able to better match our resources with the strategic objectives that we have in defence and foreign policy as that review emerges and develops.

The member for Yukon posed a question earlier about the defences in the north. I wonder what the attitude of the residents of his area in the Yukon is toward a missile defence program.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Mr. Chair, I will address the question first and then the comment.

The residents of my area have mixed views on missile defence. I have said that in several speeches on missile defence. Residents of my area have mixed views on a lot of things and I try to represent both sides. Some of the residents do not want any part in joining with missile defence. We are the closest constituency. There are others who see the few land based missiles involved are only a few seconds away. There are people who want to be involved, not to the extent of making major expenditures, but to make sure we know what is going on so we can have influence and have more effective lobbying to avoid having missiles in space.

In regard to the member's comments on expenditures, I would have to agree. We made other choices. While we were cutting the deficit, we set aside enough money to settle more land claims to bring Canadians on an equal basis, to do a number of environmental cleanups, and for an energy office in my riding. We have constantly increased foreign aid money. We have bought new materials for the military. When I was in Afghanistan the soldiers were happy with their equipment. New vehicles have just arrived.

We have invested in literacy. We have invested in workplace training. We have invested in programs such as Head Start which is for the poorest and youngest of our citizens to get a good start in life and grow up with equal opportunities.

[Jay Hill, Canadian Alliance, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Chair, I just have to interject because I cannot stand to see the Liberals in their mutual admiration society patting each other on the back at 10 o'clock at night as we wrap up this debate.

I want to point out to Canadians, if any are watching the debate this evening, that contrary to the impression that might have just been left, it was not the Prime Minister as finance minister and it certainly was not the Liberals that ultimately balanced the budget and started paying down the debt. It was the taxpayers of this country.

Before Liberals start bragging too much about their fiscal prowess, they might want to reflect upon the fact that by any measurement, Canadians are the most heavily taxed people in the western world. That continues despite the tax cuts that the Liberals constantly brag about implementing, and I have not yet met a Canadian who has seen the results on their paycheque.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Mr. Chair, the member should talk to more Canadians then because we have made the largest tax cut in history.

In a number of categories, we are actually lower than other countries in the G-7. We have higher taxes in some areas, which is at the choice of Canadians because they think we have better services, such as how we deal with our aboriginal people, health care and education. These are the things that Canadians are proud of.

I do not think any of them begrudge the fact that when Canadians, no matter what their station in life, become sick or injured, as we all do, they will enter a hospital free and receive good attention. Those taxes are well worth the investment.

[Aileen Carroll, Liberal, Minister for International Cooperation]

Mr. Chair, I rise to ask my colleague from Yukon a question. I think his speech at the end of our evening has contributed to an excellent debate from both sides of the House.

As much as we, as a government and a people, must be committed to resolving the crisis and horrors that are now a reality in Haiti, would he agree with me that we, in this government, must find new ways to solve problems that we have not had great success with in the past? If he does agree, perhaps he might make a suggestion in that regard.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Mr. Chair, that is quite the question with which to end the debate.

I would like to start by saying that among all the members in the House, there is none I admire more than the one who asked the question of me for her conscientious work in the House.

The new Prime Minister and I agree that new occasions teach new duties. The world has changed. It is a more interconnected world that brings with it its problems and opportunities. We need to look at new multilateral ways, and different groupings of nations and partners to solve these new problems.

That is an exciting course that the government has started on with our Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs on issues of aid and defence, and how to deal with the complex problems that require complex solutions.

The world is looking to Canada with its potential from the diverse cultures that we have in this country. Those answers will come from cultures all around the world. It is a question of how we can work in partnerships to solve problems that are international and complex, and have a variety of components.

[The Chair]

Since there are no other members who wish to speak, pursuant to order made Monday, March 8, 2004, the committee will rise and I will leave the chair.

[The Deputy Speaker]

It being 10 p.m., the House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).

(The House adjourned at 10:00 p.m.)