House of Commons Hansard #41 of the 37th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was sentence.

Topics

International Transfer of Offenders ActGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And more than five members having risen:

International Transfer of Offenders ActGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

Call in the members.

And the bells having rung:

International Transfer of Offenders ActGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

For the benefit of those who are watching us, the chief government whip has requested that the division be deferred until tomorrow afternoon, after government orders.

The House proceeded to the consideration of Bill C-23, an act to provide for real property taxation powers of first nations, to create a First Nations Tax Commission, First Nations Financial Management Board, First Nations Finance Authority and First Nations Statistical Institute and to make consequential amendments to other Acts, as reported (with amendments) from the committee.

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

Here are the rulings, by groups.

There are 18 motions in amendment standing on the Notice Paper for the report stage of Bill C-23. The Chair has been asked to use its discretionary power to select all the motions in amendment under the name of the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development.

I am informed that there has been an understanding between the Minister for Indian Affairs and Northern Development and opposition critics concerning the selection of these amendments. Notwithstanding any reservation the Chair may have, I agree that the motions in the name of the minister should be all selected. The motions will be grouped for debate as follows: Group No. 1, Motions Nos. 1, 2, 11 to 16 and 18; and Group No. 2, Motions Nos. 3 to 10 and 17.

The voting patterns for the motions within each group are available at the table. The Chair will remind the House of each pattern at the time of voting.

I shall now propose Motions Nos. 1, 2, 11 to 16, and 18 in Group No. 1 to the House.

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

4:25 p.m.

Toronto Centre—Rosedale Ontario

Liberal

Bill Graham Liberalfor the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

moved:

Motion No. 1

That Bill C-23, in Clause 2, be amended

(a) by replacing lines 1 and 2 on page 3 with the following:

““first nation” means

(a) in any provision of Part 5, a band; and

(b) in any other provision, a band named in the schedule.”

(b) by adding after line 4 on page 4 the following:

“(3) At the request of the council of a band, the Governor in Council may, by order, amend the schedule by adding, deleting or changing the name of the band.”

Motion No. 2

That Bill C-23 be amended by adding after line 34 on page 11 the following new clause:

“13.1 Paragraphs 83(1)(a) and (d) to (g) and section 84 of the Indian Act and any regulations made under paragraph 73(1)(m) of that Act do not apply to a first nation.”

Motion No. 11

That Bill C-23, in Clause 141, be amended by replacing lines 21 to 23 on page 60 with the following:

“141. (1) By-laws made by a first nation under paragraph 83(1)(a), or any of paragraphs 83(1)(d) to (g), of the Indian Act that are in force on the day on which the name of the first nation is added to the schedule are”

Motion No. 12

That Bill C-23 be amended by deleting Clause 148.

Motion No. 13

That Bill C-23 be amended by deleting Clause 149.

Motion No. 14

That Bill C-23 be amended by deleting Clause 150.

Motion No. 15

That Bill C-23 be amended by deleting Clause 150.1.

Motion No. 16

That Bill C-23, in Clause 151, be amended

(a) by replacing line 35 on page 62 with the following:

“the Indian Act before paragraph (a) is replaced by”

(b) by replacing line 39 on page 62 with the following:

“province, but subject to section 83 and”

Motion No. 18

That Bill C-23, in Schedule, be amended by adding after line 8 on page 70 the following:

“SCHEDULE

(Subsections 2(1) and (3))”

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

4:25 p.m.

Yukon Yukon

Liberal

Larry Bagnell LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to speak to the first group of amendments to Bill C-23 at report stage. Although I will be talking just about technicalities in my speech, I know there will be a number of more passionate speeches given later on with regard to the benefits of the bill.

In the previous stages of the bill, a couple of concerns were raised either by committee members or by people not involved in the committee. These amendments basically remove the most strenuous of those concerns. The amendments make the bill optional and they make it quite clear that it is optional. For first nations and aboriginal people who want to buy into the bill, who want to use the institutions, it is totally optional. The bill does not place an onus on first nations that have no desire to collect property taxes to do so. It does not force any first nation to go into debt.

No first nation has to use the institutions created by the bill, but these institutions have been developed over the years by first nations people themselves to help them in the financial area after their experience with section 83 of the Indian Act relating to property tax and their difficulties in getting large loans to build infrastructure at reasonable rates. They were also developed to provide first nations with a financial institution to provide them with financial consulting, and there was as well a lack of sufficient statistics to help them in their work.

Certain first nations have been working for years to develop these institutions that would perform these functions. They would be managed by first nations people. Once again, let me say that they are totally optional. No one has to use them or buy into them or be involved with them in any way. In fact, sections 83 and 84 of the Indian Act are being left in because a number of first nations are now quite successfully collecting property tax through these sections. They are welcome to keep using them as opposed to this new, more transparent method.

I will now talk about the technical points of the amendments.

Motion No. 1 relating to clause 2 is one of a series of motions to amend the bill to limit its application to just those first nations whose councils have requested that the governor in council include the name of their band on the schedule attached to the bill.

This amendment does two things. First, it limits the application of the term first nation in all parts of the bill, except part 5, to just those first nations who appear on the schedule attached to the bill.

Part 5 of the bill outlines the scope of the work of the statistical institute in the collection, analysis and dissemination of data relating to first nations and other aboriginal groups. Had the term first nation as applied to this part been limited to only those first nations on the schedule, the statistical institute would have been prevented from working with data pertaining to any first nation not on the schedule. This would have seriously limited the effectiveness of the institute.

Second, the amendment provides authority for the governor in council, upon the request of a council or first nation, to add the name of the first nation to the schedule, to delete its name from the schedule, or to change the name as it appears on the schedule. Any first nation can buy in at any time or can leave at any time. It is through an order in council that they would be added to the list, so it would be transparent for everyone to see.

Motion No. 2 in relation to clause 13.1 is one of a series of motions to amend the bill to limit its application to just those first nations whose councils request the governor in council to include the name of their band on the schedule attached to the bill. It is also proposed that the provisions of section 83 of the Indian Act, which deal with real property taxation, be retained in order to provide first nations with a choice to undertake property taxation under Bill C-23 or under the Indian Act. This amendment is required to clarify that should a first nation opt to tax under the bill, the property tax provisions of sections 83 and 84 of the Indian Act would not apply to that particular first nation.

Motion No. 11 amending clause 141 is one of a series of motions to amend the bill to limit its application to just those first nations whose councils have requested the governor in council to include the name of their band on a schedule attached to the bill.

It is also proposed that those provisions of section 83 of the Indian Act which deal with property taxation be retained to provide first nations with a choice to undertake property taxation under the bill or under the Indian Act.

This amendment modifies the current wording of clause 141 so that the property tax bylaws of a first nation made under section 83 of the Indian Act would be deemed to be laws made under clause 4 of this bill on the day the name of the first nation is added to the schedule of the bill. This supports the smooth transition of first nation property tax bylaws from one act to another.

The next amendment is Motion No. 12 on clause 148. This is one of a series of motions to amend the bill to limit its application to just those first nations whose councils have requested the governor in council to include the name of the band on a schedule attached to the bill.

It is also proposed that those provisions of section 83 of the Indian Act which deal with real property taxation be retained to provide first nations with the choice to undertake property taxation under this bill or under the Indian Act.

The current wording of clause 148 of the bill removes the reference to section 84 of the Indian Act from section 4.1 of that act. This amendment deletes clause 148 of the bill, thereby ensuring that the reference to section 84 is retained.

Next is Motion No. 13 on clause 149. This again is one of a series of motions to amend the bill to limit its application to just those first nations whose councils have requested the governor in council to include the name of their band on a schedule attached the bill.

It is also proposed that those provisions of section 83 of the Indian Act which deal with real property taxation be retained to provide the first nations with a choice to undertake property taxation under this bill or under the Indian Act.

This amendment would delete clause 149, which would otherwise have repealed the authority for the governor in council to make regulations for empowering and authorizing the council or the band to borrow money for band projects under paragraph 73(1)(m) of the Indian Act.

Next is Motion No. 14 on clause 150. It is one of a series of motions to amend the bill to limit its application to just those first nations whose councils have requested the governor in council to include their name of their band on a schedule attached to the bill.

It is also proposed that those provisions of section 83 of the Indian Act which deal with real property taxation be retained to provide the first nations with a choice to undertake property taxation under this bill or under the Indian Act.

This amendment would delete clause 150, which otherwise would have repealed those provisions of section 83 of the Indian Act concerning the making of first nations property tax bylaws.

Motion No. 15 relates to clause 150.1. It also is one of a series of motions to amend the bill to limit its application to just those first nations whose councils have requested the governor in council to include the name of their band on a schedule attached to the bill.

It is also proposed that those provisions of section 83 of the Indian Act which deal with real property taxation be retained to provide the first nations with a choice to undertake property taxation under this bill or under the Indian Act.

This amendment would delete clause 150.1, which would otherwise have repealed section 84 of the Indian Act, which deals with the recovery of property taxes pursuant to a bylaw under section 83.

Motion No. 16, the second last one in the group, is on clause 151. This is one of a series of motions to amend the bill to limit its application to just those first nations whose councils have requested the governor in council to include the name of their band on a schedule attached to the bill.

It is also proposed that those provisions of section 83 of the Indian Act which deal with real property taxation be retained to provide the first nations with a choice to undertake property taxation under this bill or under the Indian Act.

This motion would amend clause 151 to clarify that provisions of section 87 of the Indian Act dealing with tax exemptions would not apply both in the case of laws made under clause 4 of the bill and in the case of bylaws made under section 83 of the Indian Act.

The last amendment, Motion No. 18, is about the schedule. This is the last of a series of motions to amend the bill to limit its application to just those first nations whose councils have requested the governor in council to include the name of their band on a schedule attached to the bill. This motion would add the schedule to the bill.

In summary, we have ensured that the Indian Act provisions related to property tax in sections 83 and 84 can carry on, but if people want this new system to help them obtain loan financing at lower rates, to have management, and to have a transparent property tax system, they can utilize this bill.

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

Before we continue the debate, pursuant to Standing Order 38, it is my duty to inform the House that the question to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment is as follows: the hon. member for Charlesbourg—Jacques-Cartier, Quebec City Airport.

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak today to the bill before the House. It goes back to my first love.

Are you signalling me, Mr. Speaker?

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

I think there has been a mix up. I thought the hon. member for Vancouver Island North wished to speak, but he did not stand up.

Is it the case now that the hon. member wants to speak to this bill?

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

John Duncan Canadian Alliance Vancouver Island North, BC

Mr. Speaker, I thought you were reading a separate intervention and then you were going to call for resumption of debate. I never heard you resume debate, so that is why I did not stand up.

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

Just to solve the problem, the hon. member for Vancouver Island North has the floor.

The hon. member for Saint-Jean.

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Mr. Speaker, when I saw that no one had stood up I naturally did so, and you gave me the floor.

Am I to understand that you are now taking it away and giving it to my colleague, and that my turn will follow?

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

That was my intention in order to be fair to everyone, but the hon. member for Vancouver Island North has just informed me that he will allow you to finish your speech and he will speak afterward.

The hon. member for Saint-Jean.

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my colleague from the Conservative Party for his generosity.

As I was saying before we ran into a procedural problem, I am coming back to my first love. I had the honour of being the Indian affairs critic for seven years and, I must admit, it warms my heart to talk about aboriginal matters again. It is an area where there are always marvellous new developments.

I have made a lot of aboriginal friends across Canada. I recall the debate about the Nisga'a, the debates about land claims and self-government. This is an area that I greatly enjoyed. Since my colleagues were unable to attend today's debate on the bill before us, I was delighted to stand in for them.

There was something else I noticed when I was the critic for this area. Whenever a series of bills about aboriginal peoples was introduced in the House, it was often because there was nothing left on the legislative agenda. I always deplored this. When talking about aboriginal peoples, if we recognize that they are nations, I believe they must be accorded a little more importance, rather than simply using them to fill in the gaps when the government has no bills left.

That is what is going on right now. We are about to debate a bill concerning the financial administration of the first nations because the government has nothing left to introduce. This is what happened in 1993, the year I was first elected, and I see that it is much the same thing today.

I must also admit that a bill on financial administration, if these people are recognized as nations and peoples, should ordinarily be between equals. We in Quebec are rather sensitive to this issue because we are in somewhat the same situation as the first nations. We recognize ourselves as a people; we recognize ourselves as a nation.

When the federal government shows its intentions to control the first nations with a bill such as we have before us today, we are quickly inclined to take the side of those who are to be controlled.

We must show them some respect. My vast experience in this field tells me that these people are perfectly able to govern themselves. Of course, government money is involved and such money should be monitored, but not to the extent suggested in Bill C-23; we think that is going too far. That is why we have objected to this bill from the beginning.

Thus, we can empathize with a nation that the central government is trying to control. I am not saying that it does not have the right to control it, because the Indian Act is quite clear. The aboriginal peoples have very little to say about the way they are governed. We see it otherwise. Until they attain self-government and until the land claims are settled, it will be difficult for them to catch up. They are reliant on the Indian Act and the sums of money given to them each year.

To this end, I think that the balance has not been attained between the respect we should have for the fact that they are self-governed and the fact that they are also accountable to Parliament, which determines the funds they receive.

These bills are not new. Piecemeal legislation is constantly being introduced. However, important commissions considered this issue, such as the Penner commission, which examined the new relationship and how it could be changed since there was still a relationship of dependency. People wanted to change all that. Now, what we are seeing is the same old pattern along the lines of the philosophy in the Indian Act, which has been condemned by many people.

The Erasmus-Dussault commission did a great deal on work on this. I can only remind the House of its efforts. It cost taxpayers $70 million and today, the report is collecting dust on a shelf somewhere in the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs. However, the report made several extremely important points. At the time, there was a desire to totally change the relationship and ensure greater respect for aboriginals.

In fact, much effort was made and a great deal of emphasis was placed on self-government and land claims. There can be no self-government without sufficient resources and an adequate land base.

I think that the Erasmus-Dussault commission did an excellent job on this. It is too bad that its work is not reflected in the legislation now before Parliament.

This bill is along the lines of the philosophy behind the Indian Act. The Bloc Quebecois considers that keeping aboriginals dependent is taking a step in the wrong direction. This bill is, in our opinion, also a step in the wrong direction.

Consultation with the aboriginal nations is highly debatable, because the Assembly of First Nations spoke out about this. Yes, consultations were held, but the vast majority of those consulted voiced their objections.

Why is the federal government stubbornly introducing legislation on the first nations nonetheless? If we want to respect these nations and give them some measure of autonomy, we should not tell them that the Canadian Parliament will make all their decisions, as the Indian Act has done for over 100 years now, nor should we tell that we will now enforce legislation on financial administration that they must respect.

First nations have objected, and now we are talking about methods they will have to use without taking into account their self-governance and land claims, ignoring the treaties signed at the time, and imposing something new, somewhat as we did when we imposed the Indian Act. In my opinion, the federal government is headed in the wrong direction with this.

The government should have taken this consultation into account. Aboriginals have said that the bill is so terrible that even amending it would do no good. Today 18 amendments are being put forward. To us that is not enough because the fundamental philosophy underlying this bill is flawed.

We must recognize the autonomy of the aboriginal peoples and talk with them equal to equal. We should be able to tell such a nation how we could administer with them the money they are sent and how it would be acceptable to them. Unfortunately, this was not done, and that is why we are saying that this discussion between equals does not exist and has not existed. The concept of nation to nation does not exist either.

As I was saying, and I will conclude with this, as Quebeckers we consider ourselves to be a people and we would not want the same thing done to us, which is why we resist every time the federal government tries. Accordingly, we understand perfectly why the first nations are again resisting intrusion and a lack of respect toward them. Discussions are not being held equal to equal or nation to nation. They are having a bill imposed on them that they do not want. The Bloc Quebecois is on the side of aboriginals. We will vote against this bill.

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

John Duncan Canadian Alliance Vancouver Island North, BC

Mr. Speaker, the public is perhaps wondering what we are talking about here. Bill C-23 is designed to strengthen first nations real property tax regimes, create a first nations bond financing arrangement and in the process would create four institutions: the first nations tax commission, which would replace the Indian Taxation Advisory Board; a first nations financial management board; a first nations finance authority; and a first nations statistical institute.

There were 18 amendments tabled by the minister. We are speaking to one grouping of the two groupings that were created by the Speaker.

They accomplished several things. One thing they did not accomplish was that they did not separate the statistical institute from the rest of the bill. That was a significant request that had been made by a broad range of interests, including the Conservative Party. I find that somewhat unfortunate.

We will be supporting Group No. 1 amendments because there was widespread concern and desire to have this act ascertained as an optional exercise for the band level governments and this clearly specifies that. We are in pretty good shape that way.

I have been speaking about private property and have been looking at quite a bit of literature in relation to private property on reserves in Canada. There has been some very good literature produced recently. I will specifically make reference to a publication called Masters In Our Own House , published by the Skeena Native Development Society in May of last year.

The book talks about three cornerstones that are required in the way of bringing success and prosperity to first nations. We are making great progress on this front from the standpoint that there is some real leadership that is starting to be exhibited. Sometimes this cannot be one gigantic step but a series of smaller steps.

It is worth referencing that we have had taxation power available to bands across the country for about a dozen years or so. Today, 25% of the bands in British Columbia are exercising the authority and about 10% nationally. When we include the fact that British Columbia has almost a third of the bands in Canada, we can see that very few of those bands that are taxing are outside British Columbia. It is something that has led us to things like the bill we are discussing today.

The authority has been delegated to the bands under section 83 of the Indian Act and it would allow them to carry out this taxation scheme.

There are three cornerstones of successful governance; first, the market system must be allowed to function, it must be enabled; second, there must be an ability for the people to control the use and development of their lands to enable capital formation; and third, entrepreneurial thinking needs to be enabled for effective entrepreneurship to flourish.

I found this publication, produced by the Skeena Native Development Society, to be pragmatic and practical in terms of pursuing those three cornerstones within the context of the Indian Act and the other sort of albatrosses that have pre-empted that from occurring. The Indian bands are trying to go somewhere important, and I think we went somewhere important last week when we talked about Bill C-11 in the House, the Westbank first nation self-government agreement. This publication talks quite a bit about that and I want to shed a little light to that whole subject at this time.

When this group looked at the problems inherent in developing the first nations, they actually talked about going from a command economy to a market-based economy. The Indian Act has created a command economy where the Government of Canada, through the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, has been the one that was entrusted with all of the decision-making in almost every way. One can view that, as they did, through the lens of communist China. I will quote right from the document which states:

They were struck by the parallels between the economic development problems experienced during theChinese transition to a market-based economy, and those presently confronting native communities.

This brought them to some not startling but pretty important conclusions because they were coming to those conclusions themselves. They were not conclusions that some academic or someone else in some other community was imposing upon them. These were conclusions they arrived at themselves and it was leading to major progress that would have major economic consequences downstream. They went so far as to quote from Hernando de Soto that:

The single most important source of funds for new businesses in the United States is a mortgage on the entrepreneur's house.

They went on to say:

Without this fundamental capability, will the financial institutions continue to avoid providing mortgage funds to First Nation entrepreneurs? In many ways, the ability to mortgage is the litmus test of property rights.

The irony is that in Canada we now have many native individuals with the earning power to afford to carry a mortgage and build a home off reserve, but they cannot get the banks to lend them funds because they cannot collateralize the loan on the reserve because of the lack of simple title. There is a clear recognition about the concern about clear and enforceable property rights, which is compromising transactions both on and off reserve.

I would like to conclude by saying that this concern has been addressed partially by the first nations land management act, more wholly by the Sechelt agreement in British Columbia, more wholly again by one small part of the land allocation to the Nisga'a, and almost completely by the Westbank agreement, Bill C-11, before the House.

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Mr. Speaker, it was one week ago today that the Prime Minister, the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, and others held an aboriginal summit just down the street from this place. They brought in aboriginal leaders from around the country and told them that from now on the government was going to do things differently, and that there was going to be a whole new fiscal relationship between first nations and the federal government.

Yet, exactly seven days later we are in the House of Commons and the first nations people are faced with the government ramming legislation down people's throats that they have expressly stated they do not want and are not interested in. I wanted to point out this glaring contradiction. This bill of goods has been sold to aboriginal people across the country that things are going to be different. As a cautionary note, we have with us today dramatic evidence that things are no different. Things are exactly the same.

Having said that, let me say that it is the height of Eurocentric arrogance, a European model of paternalism that imposes governance rules and systems of governance on people such as first nations without their full participation and opting into that sort of process. What we have today is the tail end of the first nations governance act suite of legislation that was introduced by the last minister of Indian affairs. This is the rump of that initiative.

We managed to stop Bill C-7 with great effort in the House of Commons and with aboriginal people around the country mobilizing to put the brakes on this ill-conceived first nations governance act. What we have today is an aspect of the FNGA. It is an integral part of that suite of legislation that was so soundly rejected by aboriginal people across the country.

All we really need to know in the House today, as we debate these amendments to a flawed bill, is that the governing councils of first nations in this country, the Assembly of First Nations, have looked at this bill and rejected it. They have done so on a number of occasions.

In November 2002 there was a resolution. The Assembly of First Nations, at a meeting held in Ottawa on November 19 and 20, 2002, looked at the fiscal and statistical management act, and the proposed first nations fiscal institutions bill. I am holding the resolution here. I do not need to read all of the “whereas” and “therefore be it resolved” paragraphs, but members can take my word for it that they overwhelmingly voted down this bill. They reconvened again on February 20 and 21, 2003. In fact, this time it was the AFN's fiscal relations committee. It reconsidered this particular bill and again voted it down.

We either have respect for the legitimately elected leadership of first nations in the form of the Assembly of First Nations or we do not. The Prime Minister cannot on one day, Monday of last week, say that he has respect for the leaders that he brought to the table and then one week later act in a way that clearly shows that he does not have any respect for these particular resolutions, democratically asked at the legislative Assembly of First Nations.

Even more recently, in October 2003, I actually went to the Squamish first nation where it had called a meeting of the Assembly of First Nations to deal with this very bill at that time. The B.C. chiefs, who are actually interested in this bill, felt they had enough interest from the other chiefs to vote in favour of what was in Bill C-19 at the time. When the two day meeting was convened, even the chiefs in B.C., of whom there are over 200, could not carry the day and again it was voted down.

The only thing members of the House of Commons need to know is that the Assembly of First Nations met three times in the last year and half, looked at Bill C-19, now Bill C-23, and categorically rejected it. They were not interested. They go to the basic core of the issue in their objections. They are looking at this from the point of view of section 35 of the Constitution, inherent and aboriginal treaty rights, the inherent right of aboriginal people to govern themselves. This is not in that vein. This misses the boat.

Even if there were elements of the bill that would be helpful and useful, and some first nations may in fact wish to avail themselves of elements of this bill in terms of pooling their borrowing capabilities, even their ability to issue bonds, et cetera, those are things that can be done and are being done even outside of the legislative framework.

What we find here is a growing mobilization across the country to bury the bill altogether. In keeping with the promises and the sentiments of the meeting of last Monday, aboriginal people and first nations across the country are mobilizing to kill Bill C-23.

People from around the country are on their way to Ottawa right now, busloads of people mobilizing to come forward to tell you and to tell members of Parliament through you, Mr. Speaker, that they do not want Bill C-23. Who are we then to dictate to them what they should have and what we think their system of government should look like? We are a bunch of white guys and a couple of white women in suits who are going to once again, in a Eurocentric, colonial style, dictate to them what we think their way of life should look like.

I have a fax here which says “red alert”. Right across the country there is a red alert going out stating that Bill C-23 will be coming up for debate in the House of Commons on Monday and that people should mobilize, come together and defeat the bill. People will be coming to Ottawa and they will tell the Liberal government in no uncertain terms that this is not in keeping with any kind of new fiscal relationship between first nations and the federal government.

The bill is a disappointment. Some hope and optimism was dangled under the noses of aboriginal people just a week ago today. I think it is a cynical gesture on the part of the House leader of the Liberal Party to table this bill today and have us debate the bill at all in the context of those promises made just one week ago. It is not lost on the leadership of aboriginal communities across the country. In fact, people are taking note that we are having this debate today.

The amendments put forward would have members believe that these first nations' fiscal institutions will be optional. Those who are pushing this bill are saying that they do not know what the aboriginal peoples are concerned about because this is an option for which they can avail themselves.

The bill is optional in the same way that a driver's licence is optional. People do not have to go out and get a driver's licence but if they ever want to drive a car they do. That is the same logic that applies to these pieces of legislation.

First nations do not have to avail themselves of the new fiscal institutions and the tax commission but if hey go to the federal government under their formal relationship that they have today, the fiduciary obligation with the federal government, and ask for help for economic development, the federal government will say, “Your options lay over in the first nations fiscal institution. Sign on your community to this new package of four financial institutions and you can borrow money on the open market to build your own sewage treatment plant. Do not come running to me.” That is the fear that small communities have that will happen. This is what the predictable consequences of the bill will be.

Even though the parliamentary secretary has dutifully put forward amendments, we cannot accept them and we cannot accept the bill. We think the bill flies in face and is in direct contrast to the commitments made to aboriginal people last Monday. It is a load of hooey.

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

London West Ontario

Liberal

Sue Barnes LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada

Mr. Speaker, I stand today in support of Bill C-23, a bill that I believe is good for all first nations and also for Canada.

I particularly wanted to mention Chief Tom Bressette who is in southwestern Ontario, the area of the country in which I live. I know he has worked very hard, as have other distinguished people working on this bill. I think the bill is a tribute to the hard work of these individuals who gave their input so that we could be in this chamber today discussing the bill.

The four institutions that are central to the legislation will provide a means for aboriginal peoples to participate more actively in the Canadian economy and foster business friendly environments while meeting the specific needs of their communities.

Just a few short decades ago the economic prospects for first nations and Inuit communities were extremely limited. Government policies restricted the ability of these communities to exploit natural resources on their ancestral lands. Many communities, already geographically remote, were further isolated by undeveloped communications and transportation links.

Today it is different. Aboriginal businesses operate in every sector of the economy: in primary industries, such as mining; in secondary industries, such as manufacturing; and in tertiary industries, such as telecommunications. More and more aboriginal businesses export their goods and services abroad and aboriginal trade associations help fledgling entrepreneurs grow their businesses.

Despite these improvements, first nations still face many barriers to sustainable growth and economic development. These obstacles include the challenge faced by aboriginal entrepreneurs and communities in acquiring sufficient equity and debt capital to undertake development initiatives.

Many first nations have already demonstrated that once they gain access to capital they can invest wisely. In the western oil patch, for example, the Dene Tha' and the Saddle Lake First Nations have acquired stakes in a total of five oil rigs that operate under contract to petrochemical companies. Squamish First Nation, as another example, is participating in a $17 million hydro-generation project on Furry Creek.

These investments create employment and training opportunities for band members. The projects also generate profits that can be reinvested in the local community: in social services, in health care and in education.

I believe the first nations fiscal and statistical management act, a first nations-led initiative, would offer first nation communities access to tools that will enable greater economic development and growth and improve the quality of life in the communities.

While the benefits of the act would be many, I believe its potential to unlock economic development opportunities for first nations deserves some very special attention.

The legislation, the result of more than a decade of work by first nation leaders and other partners, would establish four institutions that will be operated by and for first nations. These institutions would improve the ability of first nation governments to provide services, build infrastructure and, most important, create employment.

For example, one of the institutions, the first nations finance authority, would enable a band council, just like any other local government, to raise long term private capital at preferred rates. Currently, first nations seeking to borrow funds for community infrastructure face prohibitive transaction costs, processing times and interest rates. Due to the lack of an appropriate legislative and institutional framework, $1 of first nations' tax revenue buys 30% to 50% less in capital works than the revenue of other governments. I think this has to be changed.

Improving first nation access to affordable capital would help pay for much needed economic infrastructure, infrastructure that would not only make a difference to the lives of the people in first nation communities but would also increase first nation participation in the economy, make first nation communities better able to draw investors and enable first nation entrepreneurs to launch successful businesses and attract partners.

Aboriginal entrepreneurship represents a tremendous opportunity for all Canadians. Indeed, I am convinced that fostering aboriginal entrepreneurship is vital to Canada's long term prosperity.

Let us consider for a moment Canada's changing population. We are currently experiencing an aboriginal baby boom, particularly in the western provinces and in the northern territories. The aboriginal population, already significantly younger than the rest of the Canadian population, is also growing much more quickly.

Furthermore, aboriginal young people are twice as likely as other Canadian youth to start businesses. I think that is an important statistic. I believe these trends represent significant opportunities for economic growth.

To make the most of these opportunities though, aboriginal communities must be able to participate more readily in the economy. To do this they must have clear access to their resources and to affordable capital for economic development. Entrepreneurs require business partners.

With the practical fiscal management tools that are at the heart of the legislation, first nations would be able to better manage their land and could more easily acquire the funds that they need to engage in community building projects.

Bill C-23 would also lead to greater and more immediate decision making powers, enabling the first nations themselves to capitalize on existing business relationships and build new ones.

As first nation economic development expands, the range of work experience available to first nation peoples will continue to broaden. It is precisely that breadth of experience that will foster ongoing innovations and stimulate Canada's economy.

A new generation of aboriginal entrepreneurs, bursting with ideas, energy and confidence, is keen to make a mark on the business world. Canada, the major exporter in an increasingly competitive business world, cannot afford to waste any of that talent nor that energy.

A second of the four institutions that would be created by the act is the first nations management board. The board would certify financial management systems, practices and standards of first nations that choose to participate and would also ensure financial performance remains constant. Certifying the credit worthiness of first nation communities will strengthen their ability to gain access to low cost capital.

As well, the institution would promote financial management capacity development and encourage adherence to sound financial management practices. This is being done already in a lot of the communities and I encourage this practice.

I believe the first nation communities and businesses that are built on solid financial management foundations will attract more investors and a greater number of business partners from private sector and public sector alike.

As the House will recall, the government made a pledge in the Speech from the Throne to see real economic opportunities for aboriginal individuals and communities.

Over the last 10 or 11 years I have had the pleasure of chairing the aboriginal committee and the finance committee. In my capacity as Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice, I now get to travel the width and the breadth of this nation. I have met with many of the aboriginal people and leadership across the country and I see that we can be moving forward. Sometimes it will be in partnership and sometimes it will be the entrepreneurs but the talent and the expertise is there.

We are getting the education in place for the younger people. I think we have to be facilitative, encouraging and be champions for the things that can better the lives of our aboriginal Canadians. The bill goes in that direction.

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Paddy Torsney Liberal Burlington, ON

Mr. Speaker, I too rise today in support of Bill C-23, the first nations fiscal and statistical management act.

This important legislation will provide first nation peoples with access to the tools they need to increase their participation in our economy. Under the provisions of Bill C-23, as I think my colleague has mentioned, first nations will gain access to the financial instruments and mechanisms used by municipal governments to raise capital and secure investment. With this capacity, first nations will be able to realize their dreams of self-sufficiency and prosperity.

The impetus for this legislation originates with first nation leaders from across the country. For many years, residents of aboriginal and first nation communities have had difficulty accessing the mainstream economy. First nation communities have struggled to raise capital needed to develop on-reserve infrastructure.

To address these issues, Bill C-23 will establish four distinct yet complementary institutions: a financial authority, a tax commission, a financial management board, and a statistical institute.

Once these institutions are in place, first nations will have many of the practical tools long enjoyed by other governments, such as the ability to borrow money at competitive rates, to develop effective real property tax systems, and to ensure that the interests of taxpayers are adequately represented. First nations that choose to participate in these institutions will also be able to increase financial management capacity and improve long term planning through greater use of accurate and current statistical information, the very things that my municipality and other municipalities have. In short, first nation communities will exercise greater control over their economic and social destinies. Real choices will exist.

Solid infrastructure is fundamental to the health and sustainability of every community in Canada. It is the reason why we have invested so heavily over the past seven years in municipal infrastructure. This government has had successive waves of, in my case, Canada-Ontario infrastructure programs, which have made a real difference in my community and in other communities across the country. Transportation links, water and sewage treatment facilities and other components of modern infrastructure are absolutely essential to economic growth. Local governments across Canada have long funded infrastructure projects through low interest, long term loans. Lenders were keen on these investments because of the legal, political and social stability of such governments.

However, and sadly, first nation band councils do not enjoy the same legal status as local governments. As a result, these councils are often charged prohibitively expensive transaction costs and interest rates. Administrative burdens and lengthy approval processes often delay the start of projects, leading to additional costs. The combined effort of these impediments is that few first nations can afford to undertake capital projects, the capital projects that, I will state again, are important to the health and social services of communities.

Several years ago, thanks to the leadership of Westbank First Nation, one of the most progressive and prosperous aboriginal communities in Canada, a new financial instrument was created. The First Nations Finance Authority Incorporated, or FNFA Inc., enabled member communities to pool their resources.

As the number of first nations participating in FNFA Inc. grew, so did the feasibility of issuing debentures to access longer term money at lower interest rates. The concept attracted the support of a key partner, the Municipal Finance Authority of British Columbia. That authority has 30 years' experience and a triple-A credit rating.

Bill C-23 provides the legal framework for first nations to fully participate in the bond markets. The legislation establishes the First Nations Finance Authority, FNFA. The FNFA will enable first nations to raise private capital at preferred rates to build roads and undertake other capital infrastructure projects such as roads, bridges, sewers and water systems. In a process similar to the one used by local governments, a participating first nation can scrutinize a portion of its long term revenues such as those generated by real property taxes.

Analysts estimate that by scrutinizing the real property tax revenues of interested first nations, approximately $125 million in debt financing could be raised within just five years. An investment of this magnitude in this specific time period would have a significant impact on the communities of participating first nations, communities that are ready to go and want to offer important opportunities to their constituent members.

The ability to generate property tax revenue is a crucial part of a community's financial stability. A growing number of first nations have collected these taxes since the Indian Act was amended in the 1980s. Tax revenues have enabled band councils to provide services, build infrastructure and create jobs and businesses.

Bill C-23 will establish the first nations tax commission, or FNTC, to facilitate the establishment of property tax regimes by band councils who choose to do so under this bill.

The FNTC will develop the standards which underlie the first nations property tax system and which are needed to effectively balance community and ratepayer interests. Dispute resolution and law approval processes will be established. The net result of these actions will be a secure and stable fiscal environment, something that all of us need in each of our municipalities, in each of our communities.

As the Prime Minister has said so many times, strong communities develop a strong nation. That is what we are achieving with Bill C-23.

For this environment to thrive over the long term, it is imperative that first nations have adequate financial management standards and procedures in place. Lenders must have a clear and accurate picture of the fiscal health of borrowers. Independent assessments must be readily available.

The first nations financial management board, or FMB, will help to meet these requirements. There are two components of the FMB's mandate. The first focuses on first nations that collect property tax and seek to borrow against these revenues. The FMB will certify financial management systems, practices and standards and monitor the performance of these first nations. The FMB will be able to intervene promptly and decisively when needed.

Under the second part of the mandate, the FMB will provide a range of professional services to first nations. The FMB will assist with research in advocacy, policy and capacity development, along with financial management, reporting and standards. These activities will help first nation communities to make the very most of their financial resources.

As part of building to a better future, first nations need to have accurate and current statistical information as a basis for informed decision making. Unfortunately, to date, the quality, consistency and accuracy of statistical systems in first nation communities are very inconsistent. There is a very great lack of accurate and current statistical information.

The fourth institution included in Bill C-23 will address this specific issue. The first nations statistical institute, or FNSI, will create a common database of information accessible by all first nations. The database will provide first nation leaders with the accurate information they need to make sound decisions; predictability, accountability and transparency.

I believe that the tools available through Bill C-23 will help to close the considerable gaps that exist between aboriginal and non-aboriginal communities across this country. By providing institutional support and embedding rigorous standards, the legislation prescribes a balanced approach to long term financial health for first nations. Clearly, all Canadians stand to benefit, particularly our first nation peoples, who are ready to go and are tired of seeing economic opportunities pass them by.

I urge all hon. colleagues to lend their support to this bill. This is a set of four very important tools for first nation communities. These tools will make sure that they can participate fully in our Canadian economy. They will make sure that first nations have the opportunity to be who they want to be in terms of economic progress and opportunity so that kids do have a real future and better economic success.

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Sarmite Bulte Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise to address the House at the report stage of Bill C-23, the first nations fiscal and statistical management act.

It is well known that many first nations support this bill, while there are indeed others who oppose it. While previously passing many resolutions in support for development of the institutions, the Assembly of First Nations voted last fall to withdraw its support. More recently, however, National Chief Phil Fontaine expressed a preference that the bill be optional so that legislation does not prevent other first nations from pursuing alternative approaches to economic development, sole source revenue and resource revenue sharing.

This government remains respectful of the democratic process within the AFN. We value the still considerable support for the bill among a large number of first nations and we remain steadfast in our belief that Bill C-23 is a valuable financial tool for those first nations who choose to benefit from its opportunities. We continue to support Bill C-23 on behalf of those many first nations who have worked long and hard toward its development.

Bill C-23 was led by first nations for interested first nations. Furthermore, Bill C-23, like all federal legislation, is developed in the context of the Constitution. Section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982, provides substantial protection for aboriginal and treaty rights. Legislation, including Bill C-23, cannot lessen that protection.

We equally support the optional nature of the bill on behalf of those first nations who oppose it. Indeed, even in its opposition to the bill, the Assembly of First Nations does not deny the options under the bill that are open to those first nations that wish to exercise them.

First nations both for and against the bill continue to look toward the negotiation of claims and self-government agreements with Canada and, from these, new fiscal relationships. We must continue to work on those broader issues.

Bill C-23 flows from many years of work that began with Bill C-115, the 1988 amendment to the Indian Act. A first nation led amendment, Bill C-115, set out first nations authority to collect real property taxes on first nation lands. In fact, it corrected a situation whereby property tax revenues were flowing to neighbouring communities and no services were flowing back. Development funds were being lost.

Over the past 15 years, 98 first nations have exercised their property tax powers and more are developing laws to do so. More than $43 million is now generated annually, which is being used to deliver quality local services, support economic growth and improve the quality of life in first nation communities.

Since its creation in 1989, the Indian tax advisory board, a first nations board, has looked toward securing a legislative base by which to better advance first nation interests. Bill C-23 would do exactly that.

It would also address many of the issues first nations have faced in building their property tax systems and in working effectively with taxpayers, potential business partners and also investors.

Bill C-23 would also realize a dream of the First Nations Finance Authority Incorporated, known as FNFA Inc., which was incorporated in 1995. Its all first nation board has led the work to see first nations gain access for the first time to the bond market in order to secure affordable capital through Bill C-23.

Today first nations pay 30% to 50% more to finance capital works because they lack the legal and institutional framework by which to issue securities on the bond markets. The extraordinary transaction costs and time, and the crippling interest rates they must pay, are major barriers to economic, social and cultural development.

To remove these barriers, FNFA Inc. has lobbied the Government of Canada for many years for a legislated basis. Bill C-23 would allow first nations to issue investment grade securities. There is much interest in these securities on the part of the investment community, including the ethical funds.

The bill would provide first nations with modern tools of government already enjoyed by other governments in Canada. While the proposed financing authority would be fully independent from the Government of Canada, the other institutions, the proposed tax commission, financial management board and statistical institute would operate at arm's length.

This structure recognizes the continuing relationship between first nations and the Government of Canada and the need to work cooperatively on complex questions such as building a new fiscal relationship. The institutions would help interested first nations develop a more effective voice in these long term development issues.

The Prime Minister hosted an aboriginal round table on April 19 of this year, looking to speak to aboriginal leaders and discuss their concerns and formulate solutions. Assembly of First Nations National Chief Phil Fontaine, spoke to the press after this round table and laid out the critical elements of successful nation building and economic development, as cited in a study from Harvard University, including:

Capable governing institutions that exercise power effectively, responsibly, and reliably;

and Cultural Match, which means creating institutions that reflect First Nations values.

Leadership and strategic direction underlie all these principles...This means we must work out arrangements for resource-sharing and power-sharing.

Bill C-23 meets these guidelines and in fact epitomizes them.

Over the course of the bill's legislative history, we have heard first nations people speak both for and against the proposed first nations fiscal and statistical management act.

Many of those speaking against the bill also acknowledge that first nations are diverse in nature and do not seek to deny access to those first nations who see opportunity in Bill C-23. Some even have noted that their community might have an interest in Bill C-23 at some time in the future, particularly if their economic situation were to change through future negotiations or developmental activity.

First nations do indeed have diverse views. Bill C-23 would honour this diversity. Bill C-23 would allow each first nation to decide if and when it would make a law in order to exercise a power pursuant to the bill or would request a service from an institution. It would give first nations the choice to access a valuable tool, and the choice to realize their unique visions for developing their communities on a level playing field.

I support Bill C-23 and I hope to see my fellow members do the same thing.

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

John Maloney Liberal Erie—Lincoln, ON

Mr. Speaker, the suggestion has been made that Bill C-23, the first nations fiscal and statistical management act, does not address the real priorities of first nations in the areas of basic services, health, education, and social services. Indeed, it has been suggested that it is a waste to be investing in strengthening first nations governance and institutional capacity.

First, let me remind the House that Bill C-23 stems from a vision of certain first nations leaders who chose not to delay their opportunities for brighter futures by waiting for the Government of Canada. Instead, they exercised their control and created a pact that would include working to develop this legislation, making certain that it would bring greater certainty to their people in giving back greater control over their futures with better opportunities, especially for their children.

In many respects, Bill C-23 complements the positive action taken by Indian and Northern Affairs Canada in line with the first nations' priorities, among them social programs, education and employment opportunities.

Indian and Northern Affairs Canada is working to ensure that social services reach those in greatest need, with a focus on first nation children on reserve. This focus on children recognizes that positive impacts made in the early years of life have a direct bearing on a child's healthy, long term development and well-being, which is a key to accessing longer term opportunities.

INAC's work emphasizes ongoing collaboration with federal and other partners to deliver important initiatives, such as the aboriginal head start program which helps prepare young first nation children for their school years by meeting their emotional, social, health, nutritional and psychological needs. Other programs and services cater to the needs of lower income families and the immediate community. As well, there have been improvements in the areas of child care, child nutrition, community and cultural enrichment, family violence shelters and prevention programs, all of which are culturally sensitive.

INAC is also working to provide first nations with the tools to improve quality of education from early childhood development to preparation for access to the workforce. A national working group of first nation education, for example, was created in partnership with first nations to look at ways to foster excellence in first nation education and help narrow gaps in economic results.

In consultations with first nations and the Assembly of First Nations, INAC has adopted a case management approach which guides income assistance recipients through a continuum of training and support services, enabling participants to benefit from and remain in federal-provincial welfare to work initiatives.

Aboriginal employment programs and services are also part of INAC's strategic priorities. Improved employment opportunities for first nations people have also come about from programs like the aboriginal workforce participation initiative, which partners governments with business to fill human resource needs with a trained, qualified aboriginal workforce to INAC's own commitment to a 50% aboriginal-external hiring strategy.

First nations people do not want to continue the status quo. They want greater control over their own affairs and an improved quality of life. As well, they seek more opportunities for themselves and for their children. To this end, they want to ensure that their programs are effectively delivered, opportunities for economic growth are created, and they are engaged in the discussion of a new fiscal relationship between first nations and Canada as a way to sustain their programs and services.

Bill C-23 would provide first nations with the tools needed to help meet these three objectives, and therefore should be viewed as an investment in a brighter future for first nations.

With respect to the first objective of ensuring effective program delivery, first nations look to build the tools they need as they assume greater control over their own affairs. They look to strengthen financial management and accounting practices, the facility to demonstrate transparency and accountability, and the capacity to effectively manage scarce resources.

The work of the financial management board would be valuable in this area. The board would provide leadership and support to strengthen the financial operations of participating first nations. The board would coordinate its efforts with those of the Aboriginal Financial Officers Association of Canada which is affiliated with the Certified General Accountants Association of Canada.

Through its work as a centre of excellence, the board would help first nations and their enterprises elevate standards, establish and maintain sound financial management, and ultimately to adopt financial systems based on national standards comparable to other governments.

The second objective that I mentioned was that first nations were seeking to participate more fully in the Canadian economy in order to improve the quality of life for their people. To help meet this objective, a strengthened first nations tax regime, managed by the Tax Commission, would help first nations to build predictable tax revenue streams which the financial authority would apply to secure long term debt financing for major capital projects.

This integrated system is optional in all respects. It would give first nation governments that wish to participate their first access to the bond markets. It would unlock real and significant opportunities for sustained economic growth and, ultimately, a better future for first nations.

It is true that not every first nation is interested in or able to build a tax system. First nations are diverse in nature. However, this does not diminish the importance of the bill to a number of first nations now poised to bring its benefits to their people.

Today, all first nations enter into many different borrowing arrangements with banks and suppliers. This option will remain open with Bill C-23. However, the creation of the first nations finance authority will make it possible for first nation governments to borrow money through the bond market and at lower interest rates than otherwise available.

The use of lower cost capital would increase the construction of in-ground infrastructure that is ready for commercial use, and give prospective private developers a favourable view in their decisions about establishing businesses on reserve lands. In the same way, and without a waste of first nations financial resources, new recreational facilities or community centres could be built at lower costs. I could see communities that would benefit from access roads and upgraded water and sewer lines which support economic ventures, such as a gas bar or a strip mall.

In time and with experience, new financing options may even be developed to increase the construction of houses and help deal with a backlog in housing units in first nation communities. The potential benefits to first nations people would be significant in terms of increased employment, income, self-reliance, control over their own futures and community growth.

Finally, the third objective I mentioned was that first nations could look to build a new fiscal relationship with Canada. They are looking to break the cycle of dependency by realizing legitimate opportunities for themselves and for their children. With that objective in mind, first nation proponents of this legislation have pushed for and have actively engaged in dialogue with the Government of Canada on a broad range of issues.

As a result of their consultations on enhanced statistical capacity, for example, first nations people are now poised to become more self-reliant by using the tools offered by Bill C-23 to engage in the joint policy discussions required to unlock critical social, educational and economic opportunities.

That is why the first nations statistical institute will focus on bringing timely, relevant and credible information to bear on policy development and program management. The institute would assist first nations in developing the systems that chiefs and council would require to meet their leadership responsibilities.

Statistics Canada and first nations statistics would have separate but complementary roles. For example, with proposed cooperative data sharing regimes, first nations statistics would draw data from many reliable sources, including Statistics Canada, giving first nation decision makers the essential access to reliable statistical information which they have lacked. As most Canadians can appreciate, the social benefits of reliable and timely statistics seem well worth the cost.

As well, both the financial management board and first nations statistics will offer professional research and policy development services on behalf of all first nations and thus strengthen their capacity to participate at intergovernmental discussions on building new fiscal relations.

Allow me to summarize the advantages that can be garnered under Bill C-23.

I have mentioned the importance to first nations that their programs are delivered effectively. Under the legislation, the financial management board could assist individual first nations to better manage their program costs, more effectively deliver their programs and thereby improve the results for first nation people.

As well, I have mentioned the importance to first nations of creating opportunities for themselves and their children. Under Bill C-23, the first nations tax commission would help to strengthen first nation real property tax regimes. First nations may use their tax powers and work with private developers to establish the infrastructure needed to trigger sustainable business development and to help build a better future.

I have mentioned the importance to first nations of discussing a new fiscal relationship with the Government of Canada. Under the legislation, the first nations finance authority would offer mechanisms necessary for first nation governments to participate in the complex world of bond markets and capital financing similar to other governments.

Discussion of fiscal matters would then take place on a more equal footing. The work of first nations statistics would bring more reliable and timely statistical information to inform discussions between first nations and the federal government.

The proposed first nations-led legislation was developed through the investment of many visionary cooperative efforts over a number of years, which bodes well for its acceptance and implementation. It will help them meet important objectives.

Let us lend our support to their vision by passing this legislation so that first nations people will be able to access real opportunities which will improve their lives.

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to stand today to speak in support of Bill C-23, the first nations fiscal and statistical management act. I intend to support this legislation at report stage. This bill was introduced last year as Bill C-19 and its passage has been long awaited by many first nations leaders. The bill is clear proof that the government is serious about fulfilling its commitment to first nations and aboriginal peoples.

The House will recall that in the recent Speech from the Throne the government committed to address the difficult but essential work of renewing its relations with Canada's first nations. The government vowed to undertake a new, collaborative approach in working with aboriginal leaders. The government also pledged to rekindle this relationship based on equality, trust and mutual respect. The government clearly indicated that fostering economic development in first nations communities and narrowing the gap in living standards between aboriginal and non-aboriginal peoples was a foremost priority and a measure of what we are as a country.

A number of significant steps have been taken to begin removing barriers to economic progress for first nations. Land claims have been negotiated, self-government agreements have been signed, and modern governance regimes have been developed and implemented.

Together, first nations leaders and the federal government have taken much action to encourage first nations entrepreneurs, attract investment, and create jobs in first nations communities. These measures are creating genuine hope and opportunity in first nations communities, thereby enabling first nations families to share in the prosperity that many other Canadians take for granted.

In recent years aboriginal economic development has undergone a truly remarkable transformation. Indeed, aboriginal owned businesses now operate in virtually every sector of the economy. Although factors such as improved transportation links and communications technologies have certainly contributed to the shift, I believe the principal difference has been a significant change in attitude.

I believe that in the past few years a spirit of collaboration has grown among aboriginals and non-aboriginals in both public and private sectors alike. Regrettably, not all aboriginal peoples have fully shared in this country's wealth and good fortune. Despite many positive strides forward, the economic condition of many aboriginal communities are simply unacceptable.

Bill C-23 is a vitally important measure to help bring first nations people into the economic mainstream of this country and to help first nations raise the living standards of their members. This legislation, led by first nations able and eager to wield increasing fiscal and administrative authority, would create four innovative institutions. These institutions are designed to support the sound fiscal management and encourage robust economic development in communities.

First, is the first nations finance authority, which would enable participating first nations to issue bonds and raise long term private capital at preferred rates to construct roads, water treatment plants, sewage systems and other crucial capital infrastructure. The first nations tax commission, which would evolve from the Indian Taxation Advisory Board, for those first nations who choose to participate would streamline the real property tax law approval process and help to reconcile community and ratepayer interests.

The first nations financial management board would provide professional advice and guidance in the development of financial management capacity on reserve, and the independent and professional assessment services required for entry into borrowing pools. Finally, the first nations statistical institute would assist first nations to meet their own statistical needs while encouraging participation in and use of the integrated national system of Statistics Canada.

Together, these four institutions would provide first nations with vital tools to foster economic development. These institutions are an essential means to help first nations access and manage the capital they require to grow and prosper. They are crucial levers for first nations people to raise living standards in their own communities.

It is important to note that much of the credit for this legislation lies with visionary first nations leaders. Rather than wait for the government to act, they took it upon themselves to address the absence in their communities of fiscal powers and institutional support, and to respond. These forward thinking men and women devoted an enormous amount of time and energy to develop the principles behind the bill. Many months ago they turned to the government for support in placing this fiscal, administrative and statistical framework on a strong legal foundation of fundamental requirements in seeking to attract investors and cultivate business development.

The result of these efforts is this pioneering piece of legislation. Bill C-23 would help first nations foster a business friendly environment, investor confidence and economic growth. The legislation would enable participating first nations to enter the economic mainstream by giving them the practical tools already used by many other governments. In fact, Bill C-23 would help first nations communities to be on the same level as other local governments. It is this fact that makes this truly a ground breaking piece of legislation.

The institutions created by the bill would provide first nations with access to capital markets already available to other governments. It made me ask, why is this so important? As hon. members may know, community infrastructure is fundamental to the quality of any community's life and economic growth. However, first nations seeking to borrow funds for such infrastructure currently face prohibitive transaction costs, processing times and interest rates. In fact, due to a lack of applicable legislative and institutional framework, a dollar of first nations tax revenue buys 30% to 50% less in capital works than revenue of other governments.

By making it possible for first nations to pool their borrowing requirements, Bill C-23 would enable many first nations, like other local governments, to raise long term private capital at preferred rates and it would provide first nations with institutional support to ensure they operate within their debt carrying capacity.

Bill C-23 is not a panacea for the challenges facing first nations. The legislation however is an important step forward for first nations people. The institutions created by Bill C-23 would lead to practical and long lasting benefits for communities. These institutions would improve the ability of first nations governments to address the social and economic well-being of their communities. The legislation would provide participating first nations with tools that other levels of government take for granted, essential tools needed by first nations to build their economies and to improve the quality of life on reserve communities.

It is important that all members support Bill C-23.

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

Gilbert Barrette Liberal Témiscamingue, QC

Mr. Speaker, I wold like to speak to Bill C-23, the FIrst Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management Act in the debate at report stage.

The last time this assembly discussed the FIrst Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management Act, some people wondered whether the first nations in fact supported the bill. Not only do many of them support it, they have worked long and hard to move it forward. These first nations deserve our support.

Bill C-23 is an extension of a series of measures initiated some fifteen years ago. In 1988, the House of Commons passed an amendment to the Indian Act which had been proposed by a first nation, a historical first.

This amendment, commonly referred to as the Kamloops amendment, in honour of the Kamloops first nation, had to do with the economic development of first nations. The amendment clarified the authority of first nations to collect property taxes on reserve lands, Before this amendment, taxes paid by non-aboriginals on property located on reserves often went to nearby municipalities.

As a result, many first nations did not have access to a revenue source they absolutely needed to provide services to their community and improve their local economy. Consequently, this deprived them of opportunities for economic development, job creation and improved quality of life for residents of the reserves.

All parties in the House gave their support to the 1988 amendment. Those who voted in favour will all be pleased to learn that it did indeed generate new possibilities for the first nations. Bill C-23, inspired by the lessons learned since 1988, should have that same unanimous support.

The 1988 amendment created new conditions. In 1989, the first nations headed the creation of the Indian taxation advisory board, the purpose of which was to help the first nations establish a property tax system. In 1995, they set up the first nations property tax commission. SInce then, this administration has helped first nations to raise private capital mainly via the bond market, using tax revenues in order to finance the infrastructures needed for their economic growth.

Bill C-23 is largely based on the research done and the experience gained by these two first nations bodies. Over the years, these organizations have consulted the first nations that were collecting property taxes, including the taxpayers and the financial and commercial sectors. These efforts proved very successful.

This budding tax system has allowed for the construction of public facilities on reserves, including drinking water supply and sewage treatment systems to support commercial development. Indeed, this tax system has allowed for the construction of public facilities that benefit all residents and that facilitate the delivery of public services to which these people are entitled, in return for the property taxes that they pay.

The current first nations property tax system provides greater financial leeway to local decision-makers. This has allowed them to improve public services for their community and to build their local economy. However, like any new system, experience tells us what improvements need to be made. This is why Bill C-23 is based on some 15 years of experience and seeks to strengthen the tax system to make it a real tool for sustainable economic development.

Bill C-23 will improve benefits for participating first nations. It will build a more comprehensive and more transparent tax system that will provide greater certainty to taxpayers, commercial partners and potential investors. These conditions are necessary to ensure thriving economies.

The bill also establishes the legal and constitutional framework that first nations need to set up a bond financing system.

This system will be available to all first nations that meet the eligibility criteria, and will reduce their borrowing costs by 30% to 50%. It will provide a better return on taxpayer dollars and a better balance between costs and benefits.

Although a growing number of first nations have adopted property tax bylaws in accordance with federal legislation, others have opted out of these provisions.

Each community can decide whether or not to exercise its taxation authority. Bill C-23 simply makes the necessary tools available to them. Each nation can choose to start imposing property taxes, using the provisions in the federal legislation. To do so, each nation must adopt its own bylaws. To date, 98 first nations have imposed property taxes in accordance with the provisions in the Indian Act, and 30 other nations are preparing to do so.

Agencies established under Bill C-23 will provide first nations with the professional support they have until now not had, which limited their potential for economic development in the Indian Act taxation system.

The first nations who choose not to levy property taxes or issue bonds will nevertheless benefit from the provisions of Bill C-23, which sets up dynamic statistical and financial management systems. These systems will be of interest to a number of nations trying to successfully complete their transition to self-government.

The bill makes it possible for individual first nations to choose the laws and services they need. It is a kind of menu perfectly suited to the first nations of Canada, whose interests and perspectives vary considerably.

Bill C-23 offers opportunities to the first nations—they can choose to take them or not. The experience of 1999 with the First Nations Land Management Act has shown the wisdom of this approach.

When that legislation was introduced, only a few first nations saw the advantage of establishing a legal framework that would give them greater mastery of their lands. These first nations called for changes and put their energy into achieving them. Today, more than 100 first nations want to use the tools in the First Nations Land Management Act to meet their needs.

The Auditor General of Canada consulted 13 first nations and 4 tribal councils and governments in 5 provinces. Her 2003 report describes the three main obstacles to economic development for the first nations, namely, barriers to accessing economic development resources, barriers to accessing federal business support programs, and barriers resulting from federal management and institutional development approaches.

Bill C-23 illustrates the work of a group of first nations who came together to overcome some of these barriers to their development. They did so for a good reason: they knew their members were suffering everyday because of the presence of these barriers causing lost opportunities and reducing their quality of life.

These first nations deserve our full support for this bill.

The time has come to go ahead with Bill C-23. The time has come to support the first nations who will take advantage of these provisions in order to attract and maintain investments in their communities. The time has come as well to give them the tools that non-aboriginal communities have taken for granted for a very long time.

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

6 p.m.

Liberal

Paul MacKlin Liberal Northumberland, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to debate Bill C-23, the first nations fiscal and statistical management act.

What we have before us is truly unique. The proposed legislation is first nation initiated; its development was first nation led; and the institutions it would create are first nation controlled.

I believe that all members will agree that we want to improve the quality of life in first nations communities. A number of steps have been taken over the past few years to begin removing barriers to first nation economic progress, self-reliance and self-government, but much more is needed and is needed now. The status quo is not acceptable.

Rather than wait for government, certain visionary first nation leaders took it upon themselves to address the gaps in fiscal powers and institutional support. They have devoted an enormous amount of time and energy to developing this initiative. Many months ago, they turned to the government for support in establishing its legal foundation, a particularly important aspect of the initiative as first nations seek to attract investors and business development. This is the purpose of Bill C-23.

Bill C-23 is a lengthy and technically complex bill, and I cannot hope to address all of its provisions in the time I have been allotted today. However I would like to quickly review the key elements in the bill.

As a first step, Bill C-23 defines first nation property taxation powers in much more detail than does the Indian Act. The bill also features provisions for property assessment, rate setting and budget based expenditure systems that continue first nation provincial property tax harmony while reconciling the interests of first nation governments and those of their taxpayers.

Bill C-23 provides for the evolution of the existing Indian Taxation Advisory Board into the first nations tax commission. This commission will build on the work of the Indian Taxation Advisory Board which has helped 98 first nations enter the field of property taxation since 1989. I should note that those first nations are now collectively raising more than $40 million annually in tax revenue.

Under Bill C-23, ratepayers will be assured a role in policy development and an improved system for hearing appeals and resolving disputes than is the case under the present Indian Act.

The proposed legislation will also clarify certain borrowing powers of first nations and create a first nations finance authority. Through the work of this institution, first nations, like other local governments in Canada, will have access to bond markets to raise long term private capital to finance the construction of roads, sewers, water and other types of infrastructure. This will be a first for aboriginal people in the world.

Assisting first nations to access the bond market will help them participate in the economic mainstream, better balance taxpayer costs and benefits, and realize a better return on tax dollars. The cost of borrowing will be reduced 30% to 50% compared to the current situation.

The first nations finance authority is modelled on the Municipal Finance Authority of British Columbia, which has 30 years of experience and a triple A credit rating. The proposal has been endorsed by major underwriters and credit raters and is expected to raise $125 million in private capital over its first five years of operation.

There is yet another gap that needs to be addressed, a gap in the financial management capacity of first nations. To this end, Bill C-23 will create a completely new institution, the first nations financial management board, which will offer a full range of services to support first nations financial management and accountability. This will be accomplished through the establishment of financial standards, promotion of capacity development, and ensuring that the rigorous systems and assessment services are in place to maintain the confidence of the markets.

Finally, Bill C-23 provides for the establishment of first nations statistics to fill the current gap in reliable data and well targeted analysis on first nations populations, economic growth and other matters. Good quality information is needed to support first nations decision making both at the national level and locally. To this end the statistical institute may work with the first nations, federal departments, Statistics Canada and provincial statistical agencies to help the first nations meet their information needs while at the same time building the shared data required to support effective Canada first nations developmental activities.

Many first nations, particularly the 98 that already have a tax system in place, will be quick to opt into the borrowing regime and other services provided through the bill. Other first nations may take more time to take up these opportunities and still others may decline them outright. Participation in this new initiative will be completely optional, a very key part of the bill.

First nations choosing not to proceed with property taxation or borrowing under the bill may still benefit from the specialized advisory and support services regarding financial and statistical management.

As we can see, each of these institutions, the tax commission, the financial authority, the financial management board and the statistical institute has a unique independent and professional role.

This is important legislation for first nations. Together, these institutions will provide first nations with the right tools needed to foster a business friendly environment, investor confidence, economic growth and sound governance. Bill C-23 will help participating first nations advance into the economic mainstream by giving them the practical tools already used by other governments. It will help them to ensure that the first nation real property tax financing, financial management and statistical systems are harmonized in a way that facilitates shared efforts with other governments. It will provide better representation and more certainty for on reserve taxpayers and a better return to the community as a whole from the tax dollars raised.

As I noted at the outset, the proposed first nations fiscal and statistical management act is a first nations solution. It was developed through the National Table on Fiscal Relations, a body established some five years ago as a consultative forum between the Assembly of First Nations and the Government of Canada.

Key players in Canada's financial markets, such as the Royal Bank of Canada, Dominion Bond Rating Services and Moody's Investor Services, have provided valuable input on the structure and operations of these institutions.

I want to conclude my remarks with this thought: Economic development is the road ahead. This is the path sought by first nations to improve their quality of life. Many first nations have begun this journey but have encountered obstacles which we can help them remove.

In order to seize control of their own economic future, first nations do not need to have their hands held, but they cannot succeed with their hands tied. These initiatives in the area of fiscal management are aimed at untying those hands. Let us support the bill.

First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management ActGovernment Orders

6:10 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Brian Fitzpatrick Canadian Alliance Prince Albert, SK

Mr. Speaker, I want to raise a question about the raising of capital through the financial markets presumably by the issuance of bonds and debentures. My learned colleague referred to Dominion Bond Rating Services, Moody's and the Royal Bank participating in setting up this legislation.

In order for a band to issue a bond or a debenture to the public, a debt instrument that is an investment, the question I have for my learned colleague--