House of Commons Hansard #42 of the 37th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was date.

Topics

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5:15 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Rob Merrifield Canadian Alliance Yellowhead, AB

Madam Speaker, I guess dullness reigns in this place. I would like to answer the question of the individual. He had a few comments, but I do not know if there really was much of a question.

On the idea of Australia, Australia is one of the parliaments born out of the British parliamentary system, very similar to ours. They have a hybrid of it. We have a hybrid of it. Actually, to be honest, over the period of time--and he talks about the history of democratic reforms in the British parliamentary system--it took them 400 years before they figured out that the frontbench outvoted the backbench in the British parliamentary system. So there is a hybrid out of their own system. It is an evolution of democracies as we move forward in the history of the world and as democracies go.

We are in this process at the present time. We have a golden opportunity to move the yardsticks just a little bit with a fixed election date.

There were a lot of comments made by my hon. colleague, but none of them answered the question of why he would say no to this. This is all about giving the electorate, the people he represents, or says he represents, the opportunity to know when they are going to the polls. That would get it above the gamesmanship of political process and into truly representing the people of Canada.

That is really the root of the problem. I have a very difficult time when an individual in this House who has been here as long as he has does not understand that. I guess I should not be that surprised, because I saw individuals in this House forget all about representing their people within the first couple of months of being in this place. An individual can be here too long. He often forgets who he represents and who the real bosses in this country really are.

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5:15 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

James Rajotte Canadian Alliance Edmonton Southwest, AB

Madam Speaker, I want to remind my hon. friend on the other side that the Constitution is an evolving document. In fact, if we look at the role political parties play and the role of the Prime Minister, we will actually not find the phrase “the Prime Minister” within our Constitution very often. It is very much an evolving role. There are actually systems we have put in place in addition to the Constitution. I do not think we should be constrained by that.

I want to ask my hon. friend a simple question. He is our health critic and has done an awful lot of work in that area. We all get more partisan as we approach an election, particularly when there is so much uncertainty over an election date. I think members on both sides would agree that we actually get a lot more work done when there is a less partisan atmosphere. I have certainly found that in my own experience at the industry committee.

I think that if we had a fixed election date, the Canadian people would actually be guaranteed three or three and a half years of knowing that their members of Parliament would be in a more constructive, less partisan atmosphere, because they would not be consistently worried about an election date over which they would have no control. This, I think, is such a simple, effective way to actually increase the effectiveness of this place that it just amazes me that members of all parties are not standing up endorsing this.

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5:15 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Rob Merrifield Canadian Alliance Yellowhead, AB

Madam Speaker, that is absolutely true. All the work of committees has been put on hold because of speculation on whether there is going to be an election at the present time.

I can speak from what my experience has been on the health committee in the last two or three months. The committee is dysfunctional, no question about it. We are not sure whether we should start a study or stop a study or how far we should go. Tremendous numbers of dollars are being spent and actually wasted because we are not able to finish reports that we engaged in initially, just purely based on election speculation.

This election could be another year and a half away. We do not really know. It is really frustrating when the parliamentary process and committee work are stalemated. My hon. colleague is exactly right. It does not lend itself to the efficiency of the House. It lends itself to dysfunction in the sense that people become more partisan and less productive.

That is what we are trying to say. Why play the game? Why not be clean and clear with Canadians, represent them as effectively as we possibly can in the House, let them decide, and stop this nonsense about guessing when an election will be?

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5:15 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Hinton)

Resuming debate, with my apologies to the next speaker. I will be calling time at 5:28 p.m.

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5:20 p.m.

Ottawa—Vanier Ontario

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger LiberalDeputy Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Madam Speaker, if I understood correctly, I have approximately eight minutes. So, I will do my best to summarize what I have to say.

First, I question somewhat the premise of today's motion by the opposition party that, in the opinion of this House, there is a serious democratic deficit, particularly in the domination of the executive over the House of Commons.

I think this is an affirmation that can still be contested. There is a fundamental concept underlying our parliamentary system, which is that the government is accountable to the House. To govern, the government must have the confidence of the House. It is a responsible government. At school, I was taught that this is what the word means. Our government is in fact responsible. This means that it answers to the House: it must at all times have the confidence of the House in order to continue to govern.

This motion proposes taking away the House's confidence. So I fear that one of the initial consequences would be contrary to what the opposition is trying to do, and give even more power to the executive, which would be even less accountable to the House, since there would be fixed election dates.

In fact, if I understood correctly, the motion recognizes that the government could be defeated, for example, on a budgetary motion, and this could lead to an election being called. In my opinion, limiting the confidence of the House and accountability to the House is contrary to good faith and good governance.

A government must answer to the House on much more than just the budget. There are fundamental issues of principle, for example, that could be questions of confidence. There is this entire issue of confidence and the way the public has confidence in the government through its members.

We must tread very carefully. For example, if we head toward fixed election dates, this would mean, in my view, “presidentializing” our system, if I can use that word. At that point, we would have to consider the other consequences, because by presidentializing our Parliament, perhaps other measures would need to be adopted, including ones that, I am convinced, the opposition would not want passed.

In presidential systems, for example, the government, that is the president and his ministers, does not come before the assembly daily to account for its actions. Oral Question Period is something we have here in Canada, which requires a government to be accountable to the elected representatives of the people for its actions every day the House is in session. This is something we value a great deal.

If we were to “presidentialize”, to move toward another system, would this practice be at risk? I do not think this is something we should do. Difficult as question period may be sometimes for a government, it is essential to have such a tool in place so that the opposition can indeed obtain accountability from the government. We therefore need to proceed very cautiously.

I have heard what certain colleagues have been saying about committee work possibly being affected by the lack of a set date. It is true that some committees may be hampered, but the opposite is also true. I have been noticing recently, because of the possibility of a spring election, that some committees have worked faster, and have finished their deliberations more quickly and more energetically than they would have otherwise. They felt there was the likelihood of an election. If, on the other hand, they had known that the election was on a fixed date, there might not have been that sudden interest in finishing up. In certain cases, this tenfold increase in the energy level of certain committees has resulted in some very positive outcomes.

There are always two sides to everything, and some would say three: yours, mine, and the truth. If we are to head toward a set date for elections, I think broad consultation is needed first. In fact, the very system under which a government operates cannot be called into question with a motion such as this one, with a single day's debate, without broad public consultations.

To me it is a very simple matter; I will certainly vote against this motion for the reasons I have given, and for others as well.

It has been stated that our proceedings might be less partisan if there were fixed election dates.

Based on the information I have about systems with fixed election dates, I hold the opposite opinion. Their deliberations are fraught with constant partisanship; immediately after an election they already know the date of the next and they begin taking positions with a view to their campaign strategy, rather than accomplishing less partisan work for at least a year or two, as is the case in our parliaments.

It is clear that, in the first year and a half or two years of most mandates we have seen in majority governments, this period is inevitably less partisan. The opposite is not necessarily true of systems with fixed election dates.

We really must keep things in perspective. Instead of making a statement without truly knowing the consequences or all the facets of the issue, and there are several, we must be very prudent. If people want to study them, let them go ahead. That is perfectly legitimate. It is our duty as parliamentarians to be open, to examine the suggestions that are made to us, to use the necessary resources and time to examine them seriously and completely, which is not what is happening today.

At that point, perhaps, we should think of doing this in a somewhat more serious way than today. This idea definitely has some merit in the eyes of the public, but to do it today, by ourselves, without any consultation, is in direct opposition to what the author of the motion has proposed, and to what the Leader of the Official Opposition was calling for in his bill.

That said, I could probably find other arguments; for example, that the ability to call an election whenever it wants to gives the government an undue advantage. That is not quite true: there are risks. If elections are called too early or too late, there is a public outcry. As in all things, it is a question of balance, good will and transparency.

If we had fixed election dates and a government wanted to call an election anyway, it could arrange some clever trick to lose a vote. Instead of playing such tricks, I would prefer that we live with the situation we actually know, as it exists in our parliamentary system. It is an approach that has certainly served our country very well so far.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:25 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Hinton)

It being 5:28 p.m. it is my duty to interrupt these proceedings and put forthwith every question necessary to dispose of the business of supply.

Is the House ready for the question?

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5:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Question.

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5:25 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Hinton)

The question is on the amendment. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the amendment?

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5:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

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5:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

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5:25 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Hinton)

All those in favour of the amendment will please say yea.

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5:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

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5:25 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Hinton)

All those opposed will please say nay.

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5:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

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5:25 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Hinton)

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

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5:25 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Hinton)

Call in the members.

(The House divided on the amendment, which was negatived on the following division:)

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6 p.m.

The Speaker

I declare the amendment lost.

The next question is on the main motion.

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

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6 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

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6 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

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6 p.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

Mr. Speaker, if you were to seek it, I think you would find unanimous consent that members who voted on the previous motion be recorded as voting on the motion now before the House, with Liberals members voting against, except for those Liberal members who wish to be recorded as voting otherwise.

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6 p.m.

The Speaker

Is there unanimous consent to proceed in this way?

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6 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed

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6 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Dale Johnston Canadian Alliance Wetaskiwin, AB

Mr. Speaker, Conservative members in the House tonight will be voting yes to the motion.

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6 p.m.

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-De- Beaupré—Île-D'Orléans, QC

Mr. Speaker, the members of the Bloc Quebecois vote against this motion.

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6 p.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Mr. Speaker, the members of the New Democratic Party vote yes on this motion.