House of Commons Hansard #140 of the 38th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was security.

Topics

U.S. Western Hemisphere Travel InitiativeGovernment Orders

7:30 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Mr. Chair, I will conclude by saying that the matter before us tonight is not as contentious as the softwood lumber issue. With the latter, the Americans are penalizing Canadian industry.

In this case, we need to convince our American friends that both sides are being penalized. That is a lot easier to do. There are as many of our American partners opposed to this initiative as there are Canadians. I think that the proper approach will lead to a worthwhile solution for both sides.

I invite people to support the lobbying that is going on in the U.S., on both the government and the opposition sides. There is very little controversy involved. The Americans will be penalized so much with this, as we will be as well, that we are likely to see a happy outcome—we hope—before October 31.

U.S. Western Hemisphere Travel InitiativeGovernment Orders

7:30 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Mr. Chair, I am happy to speak on this subject, but I am not happy about the circumstances we find ourselves in here today, especially late in the day. Canadians have until October 31 to make submissions, whether it be business, members of Parliament or provincial legislatures. We find this very difficult to accept.

I do have a lot of respect, and I say this at the outset, for the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs and also the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness. However, I have difficulty with the government's position on this and the fact that we have several agencies that are involved in this, yet we have a small contingency of Liberals here tonight.

I want to begin by putting some of this into context. We have seen a trampling of Canadian rights in terms of our relationship with the United States. We have to put this into perspective. We have not been standing up for ourselves since 9/11. We have not been standing up for our country and specifically for the northern border between Canada and the United States versus what has been happening on the southern border between Mexico and the United States.

Quite literally, we have allowed the Americans push both of those borders into the same category. That is why we find ourselves in the position we are in today. It is because many people in the United States view their northern border in the same way as their southern border.

The most recent example of that is the fact that we are going to have minutemen patrols, with their vigilante and citizen groups, patrolling the borders between northern states and Canadian provinces. They are doing this because they believe there is insufficient security there.

This has also been compounded when the government did very little to raise these issues in the NSEER program at the time. The NSEER program categorized Canadian citizenship. For example, if individuals were Pakistani nationals in the past and now were Canadian citizens, they were fingerprinted and photographed at the border. To this date I have Canadian citizens who used to be Pakistani nationals that cannot get scrubbed of the U.S. visa program. It is a serious problem that we have not yet addressed. It is one of the things that we do not stand up for is the fact that a Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian. Hence, we now have a system where we have a passport requirement for this nation that will be a drag on our economic development.

This problem has been raised before. I raised this problem on April 11, 2005 at the industry committee. It is very important to note this because at that time we had Ms. Michele MacKenzie in front of us from the Canadian Tourism Commission. I asked her specifically about this issue. I said:

This is the biggest threat to tourism we have right now. If a family of four consisting of two American adults and two American children come to Canada, it's going to cost them an additional $350. That's if they're willing to actually get in their car and go down to the processing office.

The answer I received from Ms. MacKenzie at that time was:

The research we're pursuing right now on the passport issue is going to cost us in the vicinity of $50,000. That's a specific piece of research. We are not budgeting for the passport issue per se. We're a marketing organization. We will use that information to help us market more effectively, given the concerns we have around this issue.

I responded to that by saying:

We have a growing trade deficit in tourism with the United States, our most important market, and we have $50,000 to deal with the most important issue facing tourism.

What was happening at that time with the Canadian Tourism Commission was that it was worried about spending $17 million of taxpayers' money to move from Ottawa to Vancouver, as opposed to the biggest economic threat that we faced in tourism in recent history and probably the country's history.

To put this in perspective, when we finally got the board to respond, it did spend approximately $150,000 to $200,000 to do an extensive study that was done and then hidden from the general public. It was not posted until July on the Internet website. It had the impacts and effects of significant magnitude to our tourism industry. Members can go to the tourism website and read it.

We are looking at a loss of revenue of $1.756 billion in Canada over three years and a $785 million loss in Canadian revenue in the United States. I want to break it down because this is not only an Ontario issue or a Quebec issue. This is a national issue that is very significant.

The projected loss of business alone in those three years from Atlantic Canada was $135 million; Quebec, $223 million; Ontario, $859 million; Manitoba, $33 million; Saskatchewan, $18 million; Alberta, $86 million and British Columbia, $403 million.

It is important to note that the hotel association which represents $12.6 billion of investment in terms of tourism in Canada has been expressing this concern. We want to talk about solutions. I would like to thank Rob Evans of our Holiday Inn Select who has been very active on the border issue in Windsor for many years, as well as this file. In his final summary he came up with a recommendation that states:

In the estimation of the Hotel Association of Canada we believe this initiative cannot be completed or implemented by January 1, 2008. Accordingly, we believe implementation must be delayed.

People have been speaking out about this and I would follow it up by ensuring we note that some of them have been Canadians. Once this was in the press, the U.S. ambassador, Frank McKenna, said, “many Americans will stop travelling to Canada if new U.S. entry laws make it too much of a hassle to get back home”.

He went on to say:

—Canada would lose out on a lot of casual, cross-border traffic in the form of impulse tourists who cross just to catch a hockey game or do some shopping.

It's a very real fear that will have significant implications for our economy.

Why have we not heard the same type of statement by our Prime Minister? Why have we not heard the Prime Minister demand a course of action? I do not find this acceptable from the government's position.

Furthermore, we had other people speak out about the issue. I would point to the Mohawk Nation. Chief Ransom said:

Most of our Tribal members will not be able to afford a passport and many do not believe they should have to even apply for one. For our Tribe, it will result in tremendous economic losses that will devastate our community with no benefit to us.

Quebec Premier Jean Charest said:

It would be a further impediment to travel and trade. The border must be part of the solution to enhance international trade, not a problem.

Manitoba Premier Gary Doer, along with North Dakota Governor John Hoeven, said that it would “affect tourism and trade”. Doer estimates the change could cost Manitoba's tourism industry $33 million every year.

I think it is important to note that I asked a question in the House of Commons about the fact that Hillary Clinton and New York Governor George Pataki held a joint press conference. We are talking about a Democratic and Republican initiative to speak about this initiative. Why is it that their voices, American elected officials, are carrying the day for Canadian issues that affect us so dearly? That is not acceptable, especially given that at that time the Prime Minister was in New York and could have said something. He should have made a point. We should not be sitting floundering here tonight deciding what we will do about it. We should have had that leadership long ago.

We have had many different people speak out against this U.S. initiative. I pointed earlier to the northern border caucus and I would point out that we have been doing some work with them in terms of our border caucus on the Canadian side.

Many people are interested in finding a resolution to this. I think the solution is to stop this initiative and call for its delay immediately because it is not only in the best interest of Canadians, it is also in the interest of Americans. Why is it so difficult for us to say that is the case?

If we look at the fact that the implementation of passports is done under the guise of national security, I would suggest that it is a ruse. The fact is that it was passports that allowed the 9/11 terrorists into the United States to begin with. This is not a solution for us.

It is very difficult to understand. If we have continual economic damage on our border because we are not investing in the infrastructure, in the staffing and in the necessary means to get past this, we will watch our economies erode significantly in the northern hemisphere. That would render us vulnerable to security issues as we will not be able to afford to do the things necessary to ensure we are safe.

Another issue that is important to note is in terms of the government's attitude. I do not know what its thoughts are in terms of the Canadian Tourism Commission but what it essentially is saying to all the border communities is that they are hung out to dry.

One of the things we noted in the committee was that they were looking at the effects of, for example, the convention business. Vancouver, Montreal and other spots like that would have difficulty procuring conventions. The additional costs that delegates from abroad would have to incur to get over to Canada would be a factor, but the reality is that on our border communities we will lose not only an economy but a culture, where we have brothers, sisters, friends, relatives, business acquaintances and many Canadians who actually go over to work in the United States. All of those relationships will be impeded.

We will change significantly the dynamics between our two nations. We will find a distancing that will be very harmful in the way that we operate domestically in the world, which is why it is important for the government to get out in front now and say that enough is enough, that it has to end and that it is not in the best interests of either of us.

U.S. Western Hemisphere Travel InitiativeGovernment Orders

7:40 p.m.

Pickering—Scarborough East Ontario

Liberal

Dan McTeague LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs

Mr. Chair, I agree with the hon. member. I do not think a single member in the House would disagree with the hon. member. I heard the hon. House leader for the Conservative Party again torquing this as if it were a partisan issue and saying that somehow the government has been derelict.

U.S. Western Hemisphere Travel InitiativeGovernment Orders

7:40 p.m.

Conservative

Jay Hill Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC

You have been.

U.S. Western Hemisphere Travel InitiativeGovernment Orders

7:40 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Mr. Chair, I did not heckle that member but let it be known that the hon. House leader believes it is more important to heckle and to banter, as opposed to dealing with some facts and figures. Let me give him one.

When the President of the United States first read about the WHTI in the newspaper and about the need to have passports, he wanted to know what was going on. He thought there was a better way to expedite the legal flow of traffic of people and that if people had to have a passport it would disrupt the honest flow of traffic. He thought there was some flexibility in the law and that is what they were checking out.

The hon. member just talked about Hillary Clinton and Governor Pataki who said the same thing.

If the President of the United States and leading congressmen have a problem with this then one would assume the Canadian government took this to be a question of domestic policy with obvious ramifications for Canada. That clearly may not be the case and so the government will be acting on this on the 31st and in terms of our own response with respect to Condoleezza Rice and the meeting we are having today.

I can quote every one of those hon. members. Let me give the House the comments by the hon. member for New Brunswick Southwest since he wants to heckle. He said that the consensus that emerged from the annual meeting of the Canada-U.S. interparliamentary group was that they never realized the impact it would have.

Individuals in the Conservative Party seem more interested in making a point about whether a question of leadership is present, which it clearly is, as opposed to dealing with the more important fundamental issue of protecting Canadian jobs.

Members of the Conservative Party need to make a decision. Are they here to protect the border? Are they here to make sure Canadian interests are defended or are they going to continue with their partisan nonsense and of course deny us an opportunity to have consensus of the House of Commons?

U.S. Western Hemisphere Travel InitiativeGovernment Orders

7:40 p.m.

Conservative

Jay Hill Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC

Do your job for once.

U.S. Western Hemisphere Travel InitiativeGovernment Orders

7:40 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Mr. Chair, you can hear exactly what the Conservatives are saying right now because clearly they believe in heckling and talking over the issues as opposed to debating them. That is the Conservative way as opposed to dealing with these things constructively. If they have a problem they should take it up with the President of the United States because the President has a problem with this, the Prime Minister has a problem with this and Parliament has a problem with this. The only people who treat this as sidebar are those in the Conservative Party.

I would like to encourage the hon. member, since he is in one of the most important border communities where the flow from my riding tends to go through his area at the Ambassador Bridge, that if there are other concerns he may want to raise them now.

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7:40 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Mr. Chair, first I would note that the President of the United States has actually done something on the evergreening issue in terms of drug costs in his nation and I think we should take that and do that over here. However he is also talking about fixing this problem.

I do take issue with the member's reference to this being a domestic issue. I do not think it is a U.S. domestic issue. Last year alone 36 million Canadians travelled to the United States and they had access not only to their markets in terms of trade, but they had access to their friends, relatives, jobs and employment. This is a not a domestic issue and the fact is that we will now need a different level of security and a different environment to cross the border.

The frustrating problem I have had in Windsor, Ontario, is that we have not had the support historically there, not just in terms of infrastructure but in staffing. There have been some modest improvement now in staffing which has alleviated some of the problems but it does not take away the fact that we do not have the physical infrastructure and the logistics setup to deal with this issue. What we know right now is that only a small number of Canadians actually apply for passports and hence we have a logistics issue in the passport office to be able to ensure all Canadians have access to it and are able to afford the passport.

I have tabled a motion in the House of Commons to ensure the Auditor General investigates to make sure the passports would be at per cost and not be an increased burden on taxpayers. They should be sold at face value. We also need to ensure that the facilities are there so people can actually get a passport if we have a crisis pending.

We have a significant cultural shift here between ourselves and the United States. I do not believe it is a domestic issue. I think it is one that Canada has to forcefully say to the United States that this is the wrong thing for both of us, and I do not think there is anything wrong with that. I think Canadians can prove there are other ways for the security issue to be handled.

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7:45 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Thompson Conservative St. Croix—Belleisle, NB

Mr. Chair, one of the questions I have for the member for Windsor West, who has done a terrific job on the Canada-U.S. parliamentary group by the way, is with regard to the lack of interest by the Government of Canada.

For example, Mr. Chair, if you go through the Standing Orders, which I am sure you are pretty familiar with, and routine proceedings every day in this House, we have what we call statements by ministers. I want the member to comment on this because not once has any minister or the Prime Minister stood in the House to give Parliament, the place where these issues should be debated, an update on this issue. This one has just simply gone by them. Now that we are seven days from the comment period ending, they are attempting to make up time.

Would the member please comment on that in terms of the Prime Minister and his government dropping the ball on this issue being a gift?

U.S. Western Hemisphere Travel InitiativeGovernment Orders

7:45 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Mr. Chair, I appreciate the work of the member for New Brunswick Southwest as well as the member for Saint John who have both been part of the border caucus.

We have made representations abroad about this issue. I have been troubled in my research and maybe I can be proven wrong today, which I hope is the case. I found a paper trail about how the government really feels about this issue and the representations that it has made to U.S. legislators about this issue, as well as groups and organizations that it has networked with on this.

I know that when I first arrived here back in 2002 we did a trade mission to Washington on softwood lumber and it at least congregated the different elements of American interests that wanted to see Canadian softwood lumber resolved as it was having an effect, for example, on the Home Building Association, the Home Depot, people who were doing renovations, a whole series of people looking for affordable housing, and it at least tried to outreach those organizations.

I would like to see the government's paper trail of how it reached out to different chambers of commerce and different elected officials across the northern border. I think it is important because it is certainly how we build coalitions. We have many departments involved in this issue and the effects of it are not only being felt on the borders of southern Canada. We are looking at Montreal being able to compete for tourism related to conventions, because there would be hundreds of dollars of additional expenses that delegates would have to pay versus them going to another location in the United States. That is a serious competitive disadvantage that they will now have to attract that type of a business. I hope I can be proven wrong in this. I hope the government has had due diligence and we can find that paper trail of support and representations because in my opinion this has not been discussed enough.

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7:45 p.m.

Etobicoke North Ontario

Liberal

Roy Cullen LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Mr. Chair, I know the member for Windsor West has been a strong advocate of border issues and, although not terribly partisan, he is very outspoken and is a strong supporter of measures at the border. I should point out that the member for New Brunswick Southwest talked about ministers making statements in the House. Members opposite always have an opportunity to put a question to ministers in question period as well but I do not recall many questions on this topic in the last little while.

The member for Windsor West talked about the lack of investment in infrastructure. Perhaps he has forgotten a few of the facts. He knows full that for phase two of the Windsor-Detroit border initiative, although I do not have the figure in front of me, it is some $600 million. He knows full well that the Canada Border Services Agency will be hiring another 270 officers for our border. He also knows there is a very active binational panel looking at different options to put in another crossing at Windsor-Detroit.

I think his comment that the government has not invested in infrastructure at the border is somewhat misleading to Canadians.

Is he aware of the program that has been mounted through the Canadian consuls general in the United States to raise this issue in the United States on behalf of Canadians?

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7:50 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Mr. Chair, I seem to be spending my time correcting the record here.

The fact is that only $300 million were allocated for the Windsor border back in 2002, of which only $100,000 was committed and less than that has been spent. I would invite the minister to inform Canadians later on tonight how much of that actually has been spent.

Second, what has happened on our Windsor border is that the governor of Michigan has taken control of the file, the provincial government is warring with the federal government and recently the Minister of Transport has had to do significant retreating about wanting to turn EC Row Expressway in Windsor into a truck route.

I will conclude my remarks by saying that there has not been enough done on the Windsor border and I stand by that, as do the auto leaders, the industry leaders and a number of different people in the communities across the country. We are talking about the most important crossing in North America and the fact is that less than $100 million were allocated to it and, of that, little money has actually been spent.

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7:50 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Boshcoff Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

Mr. Chair, this issue is absolutely critical for northwestern Ontario.

My riding of Thunder Bay--Rainy River covers the entire northern boundary of the State of Minnesota. I have three border crossings: Rainy River at the Manitoba border, Pigeon River, Minnesota and also Fort Frances, Ontario.

The decline in American visitors over the past four years results in about $150 million loss of revenue for northwestern Ontario. We know that historically from 1972 to August 2005 the trend has been a 42% decline.

What does that mean for small communities such as those in northwestern Ontario? It means the marginal difference between a business being successful or not. Tourist operators, grocers, the craftsmen, gas bars and recreational suppliers all have been hit in some way or another. The number of stations and the number of opportunities have declined very visibly.

I have been asked by many organizations to speak tonight, particularly by northwestern Ontario tourist operators who have led the campaign for Americans to come back to Canada. We want them.

I believe the government can communicate far more effectively. We have had many issues over the past number of years from handguns, driving under the influence, things even such as mid-west United States potatoes and firewood. All of these have had their impacts on border crossings and complaints.

Ontario has lost a greater portion of the U.S. market for the past four years than any other province. Therefore, our role in dealing with the policies of another sovereign nation must be to emphasize that this is a two way street.

More complications, such as proposed by the western hemisphere travel initiative, will make even more Canadians rethink their plans to visit the United States. This is another form of reciprocity that I do not think anyone in the United States expects. I believe the walls, barriers and restrictions will hurt both our nations.

As a former mayor, I was part of a group that initiated an international friendship games between Thunder Bay, Ontario and Duluth, Minnesota. It is with great enthusiasm that I support His Worship Mayor Dan Onichuk of the town of Fort Frances who has proposed a forum of Canadian and American border communities to address some of these roadblocks as they apply to each particular regional situation.

Our new Canadian Border Services Agency has been working very hard to eliminate the problem situations at the field level. It is the first line of both security and hospitality, which is a difficult combination requiring special skill sets. Considering the volume of people who pass through without incident, it does a great job. However, when someone is turned away, it results in a big furor with rippling adverse publicity.

When I give the Canadian examples, I am only going to emphasize what will happen when the same thing occurs on the American side. When Americans impose more restrictions, it will make it less attractive for Canadians to go there; back to the two way street scenario.

As a government, we need to support, through websites, staff training, presence at trade shows in the United States and any other means, the fact that as Canadians we want Americans. I know our friends in the United States, who are fighting this proposal, also feel the same way. We have to reinforce those positive forces.

When I refer to the two way street for the western hemisphere travel initiative, I know for certain that it will also hurt the U.S. travel industry. Therefore, we must make the American tourism and hospitality industry our allies to resist overly onerous and overly zealous rules and restrictions.

It was quite gratifying as a member of the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates to hear witnesses from Passport Canada talk about the progress it has been making in addressing our issues. It will be representing us shortly in the petitions on the western hemisphere travel initiative as part of the general overall governmental perspective.

Making Canada more attractive to our American neighbours, still the longest undefended border in the world, should remain a major point of focus. A national tourism strategy to bring Americans to Canada, working in concert with provincial campaigns, can do much to offset the inevitable negative effects that would surely occur if the WHTI comes into reality.

What does the loss of $150 million a year mean to northwestern Ontario? It will be hugely detrimental. I do not want to use the big negatives like catastrophic, but please do the math. This is a very heavy and consistent drain of an economic multiplier. Not only will it be full time people, but students, part timers, everybody will be hurt, including our national image. What business could sustain such hits year after year?

People in organizations in the Rainy River district, which became part of my riding in the last election, recently decided to stop complaining and do something effective. We had a meeting with everyone concerned. All parties dealing with border crossings came together and the positive and cooperative attitude was excellent.

With the assistance of the Rainy River Futures Development Corporation, we designed and built a visitor-friendly website to make it easier for Americans to visit us. Every time tourist operators are faced with an inquiry from Americans, they know now exactly what they can or cannot bring, what the legal implications of their criminal records may be and how to overcome them.

Currently, a study is underway, helped by the province of Ontario, to get some more finely tuned answers as to why the Americans have stopped coming. We know one thing that we will find from this. The answers that will come from this study also will tell Canadians why they will not be interested in going back to the United States if the border gets tougher to cross.

This example proves what we can do and what we can achieve if we work to find solutions. We could apply this to a two way plan. We have to prove to our American neighbours that we are presenting viable solutions, not making more difficult problems.

On October 31, which I believe is the deadline for submissions, I hope our government, with the combination of people from all parties, support what we have to do. We cannot tell a sovereign nation how to write its legislation, but we can show from example that we are first and foremost a friendly, supportive nation. We saw how extremely effective the Mexican proposal was. Its tourist pitch was “Closer Than Ever”, and that resulted in millions of new visitors to Mexico after 9/11. We know that the potential is there.

U.S. Western Hemisphere Travel InitiativeGovernment Orders

8 p.m.

Conservative

Jay Hill Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC

Mr. Chair, I want to refer first to the comments made during the last question and comment session directed toward my colleague from the NDP, by the member for Pickering—Scarborough East. He was concerned that I and some others might be getting too partisan.

The Liberal member who just spoke talked about his support for the mayor from the United States who suggested an initiative for border communities, both from the United States and Canada, to get together to discuss issues such as the passport issue and other issues of mutual concern. That would be a great thing. However, the hon. member from the Liberal caucus has made the point we have tried to make. Where is the leadership on this issue? The member for Pickering—Scarborough East does not want us to get partisan, but there is no leadership. We have yet to hear the Prime Minister speak on this issue.

Earlier another Liberal member made a comment on the fact that he had not heard one question in question period on this. I hope Canadians are watching this tonight. I hope they realize the leadership in the Liberal Party is all about that. If the opposition does not ask a question in question period, it must not be important. That is the Liberals idea of leadership. The Prime Minister cannot possibly take a position on this or communicate to the Americans, even though there is only one week left before the comment period on the initiative expires.

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8 p.m.

Liberal

Roy Cullen Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

Not at all.

U.S. Western Hemisphere Travel InitiativeGovernment Orders

8 p.m.

Conservative

Jay Hill Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC

Who is heckling now? This is great tonight.

The Prime Minister fails to take a leadership position. My colleague from the Liberal Party is well intentioned in his support of border communities. It is a great idea. However, I do not think it would be necessary for border communities. This is not something that only affects his community in Thunder Bay. It is not something that only affects Windsor, or Niagara Falls or Vancouver or Sumac. This is something that affects the nation. Should there not be some national leadership on this?

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8 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Boshcoff Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

Mr. Chair, first a minor correction. Fort Frances is a Canadian community. I understand we cannot know all our geography, but it is a very important community in northwestern Ontario.

The degree of cooperation with the American people also has been very exemplary. Indeed a senator from the United States has been involved, and they have been calling meetings themselves to garner Canadian support against the proposal.

The member talks about leadership. I was quite pleased to see the number of initiatives both from Foreign Affairs and our Prime Minister on this issue, and his personal interventions with the President. That came through loud and clear from our Minnesota neighbours. They were pleased for the Canadian support from our leadership, so perhaps I must have missed something earlier.

Second, if border communities could come together to facilitate some of these things that would reinforce what can be done at a national level and it would be most positive.

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8:05 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Mr. Chair, as much as I admire the member from Thunder Bay, I am having problems with his approach. It is perhaps overly Pollyannaish. I do not know if he will appreciate this, but I do have this question for him on the provision for the three phases of passport requirements.

The first is for members from the Caribbean and the rest of the western hemisphere, excluding Mexico and Canada. That comes into effect in about two months' time. That is legislated. A year later, anybody travelling by sea and air from Mexico and Canada will require a passport. That also is legislated. In January 2008, everybody going in by land, sea, or air will be required, by legislation in the U.S., to have passports.

As for these initiatives of working with our local communities, we all do that. I am from Windsor. On an ongoing basis, we have a significant working relationship with the city of Detroit and any number of smaller communities on the other side of the border.

But there is nothing those communities can do: this is federal legislation. This requires the President of the United States and the Congress and the Senate to change the law. There is nothing we can do. I wonder if my colleague understands that. I wonder if he has any other suggestions as to how we do this without getting directly to the President of the United States, the senators and the congressmen in the U.S. for legislation to repeal these provisions or at least delay them.

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8:05 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Boshcoff Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

Mr. Chair, I understand the phasing very well. I also understand very well the economics of what this will mean to an American family. Yes, their passport terms are 10 years as opposed to our 5 years. I also understand how expensive it is for American families coming this way. I would think that the price Canadians will have to pay for passports to go there will have to be addressed, perhaps in future budgets. There is an option there for us too.

As was mentioned, there are other alternatives, not the least of which are recent examples which have shown there is some potential that may make it not so onerous.

For all of these questions, I would ask, as someone from the NDP would, where does change begin? When we can show that these border communities that are most directly affected can, at the community level, show their governments what the impact is, then I think there will be some pressure and some success and it will be effective.

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8:05 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Mr. Chair, I paid a great deal of attention to the comments of the member for Thunder Bay--Rainy River. He said among other things that mayors have taken initiatives on this. I know that he has been very involved with municipal politics and certainly we on this side of the House applaud that. We are happy when we hear that mayors are taking initiatives.

He also said that we have to take a page from one of the programs on the southern border of the United States, with Mexico, in terms of encouraging Americans, but let me ask the member this: how much encouragement can we give when we know that more has to be done at the border?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Safety said he has not heard any questions being asked about this. I will tell him to check Hansard , because I certainly asked his minister a question as to what was being done about the unscheduled labour disruptions that were taking place at the border.

I pointed out to the minister at that time that four disruptions had taken place just this past summer. Border guards walked off the job because of security concerns and shut down the border. I asked the minister if we were going to have to wait until there were 40 of these shutdowns before the government would take action on this.

I challenged her then, but I have to raise the matter again because the same thing happened today. At 2 o'clock at the Peace Bridge in Fort Erie, border guards walked off the job. The parliamentary secretary will be aware of this because he must get intelligence briefings from across the country. As we speak, the traffic is backed up for miles. People cannot get into Canada.

Who should be doing something about this? Should we tell the mayors to get together and figure this out? Should we say that this is a tourism issue and we should advertise better?

It seems to me that we need leadership to settle some of these issues to make the borders work better. If members do not believe me or if they think the borders are working well, I challenge anybody to check what I just mentioned about the Niagara Peninsula and the Peace Bridge. As we speak this very day, the border guards have walked off the job because of security concerns and that has the traffic backed up for miles.

Let me ask the hon. member this: how much confidence should we place in the leadership of his government when this is taking place? This has been a continuous problem and the government has not yet dealt with the issue. Could he address that, please?

U.S. Western Hemisphere Travel InitiativeGovernment Orders

8:10 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Boshcoff Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

Mr. Chair, the hon. member for Niagara probably has more vehicle crossings in a month than we do in a year at all three of our crossings. The commercial aspect for him and his riding is probably more important in terms of total quantity and value, although for our three crossings, forestry, softwood lumber and all of those types of things become very significant in terms of delay and pace. There is no doubt that commercially it is very significant. It is the same as our cross-country highway system.

When we try to look at these as solvable issues, when I think about it I am not going to give a stock answer and say that we are working on it and it is going to get done. I am going to say that I take it at face value and it is something that has to be improved. It clearly has to be more of a priority and has value in terms of the nature of the question. I will say respectfully to the hon. member that I believe we probably can do more and we will do more. I am certain that we must.

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8:10 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Thompson Conservative St. Croix—Belleisle, NB

Mr. Chair, we are actually debating the United States Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative. Let me say for the folks back home that this is the passport initiative. “Passport” is the operative word on this.

I want to remind the listening public and the members of this House that for those travelling by air the necessity or requirement for a passport or some other document which has not yet been invented will kick in and the document will be needed as of December 31, 2006. For those travelling by land, it will be required by December 31, 2007.

In a sense, the debate really is not about a bill or an initiative that the Government of Canada is taking, because this clearly is a bill or an initiative taken by the government of the United States. There is no question about that. The issue is that there will be serious implications for Canada.

The Government of Canada has had plenty of notice concerning this travel initiative, as the parliamentary secretary noted. It sounds quite innocent, does it not, this “travel initiative”? It sounds as if the U.S. is encouraging travel when it talks about a travel initiative. However, this initiative will restrict travel. This initiative was passed by the government of the United States in December 2004. I know I am accurate on that number because the government has also mentioned that date.

The Canadian government has had time to do something. Our argument is that the Government of Canada has done nothing.

It is important for us to focus on the time element, because with any legislation in the United States there is a 60 day comment period during which private citizens or industry can comment on a bill or an initiative undertaken by government. It is what the U.S. government calls the implementation period.

We are arguing that the comment period on this particular bill ends on October 31. It is now October 24. There is one week to go and the Prime Minister has not been heard publicly on this issue at all. The government has known for well over a year that this was coming. There have been plenty of signals out there, but the government has done absolutely nothing.

One thing mentioned by the member from Thunder Bay was a meeting. I am quoting the member from Thunder Bay, who said that the Prime Minister had personal intervention with the President of the United States on this issue. We heard him say that. I would like to know where that was and when it was, because I believe the member is wrong on that. If the member is correct or if he does know that date and where it happened, he would be the only one in this House, because his ministers do not know and his parliamentary secretaries do not know.

I would suggest that this imaginary meeting that was held was something like the meeting that our former prime minister, Mr. Chrétien, had with the homeless guy down the street. It was simply a figment of his imagination. This never occurred. I am suggesting that this is exactly what the member from Thunder Bay is referring to: an event that never happened. That is exactly what this argument and debate is all about: inaction by the Government of Canada on an issue that is going to have huge consequences for the Canadian economy.

Not only those of us in opposition are speaking this way. Industry is speaking that way, from Windsor to British Columbia, all across this country and in all parts of this country. All premiers are speaking that way. The member from Windsor quoted some of the premiers. Every premier in Canada is saying, “This is going to have grave consequences. Please stand up, Prime Minister, and do something now while we have an opportunity”.

A week ago I stood in this place and asked for an emergency debate on this issue. For some reason, the Chair declined that word “emergency” in regard to the debate. That was declined. Thank goodness our House leader was strong enough to drive this hard enough at the House leaders' meeting so that we do have a take note debate.

There are some limitations on that. Just think about it. The Liberals have had a year to deal with this. Now we are down to the last seven days and there is a pathetic turnout on the government side. I am not identifying individual members of Parliament but I am saying that I do not think the turnout on the government side is very impressive.

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8:15 p.m.

Liberal

Roy Cullen Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

Point of order.

U.S. Western Hemisphere Travel InitiativeGovernment Orders

8:15 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Thompson Conservative St. Croix—Belleisle, NB

Mr. Chair, there are no points of order here, as we well know. We are on the—

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8:15 p.m.

The Deputy Chair

Order. On a point of order, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs.