House of Commons Hansard #82 of the 38th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was liberal.

Topics

SupplyGovernment Orders

11:50 a.m.

St. Catharines Ontario

Liberal

Walt Lastewka LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Works and Government Services

Madam Speaker, I heard the comments of the member for Calgary Southeast. I think this House and many Canadians realize that many of the innuendoes, insults and accusations that the member makes are exactly that.

The member talked about the public accounts committee. I must remind the people of Canada that he was one of the members that continued to filibuster in the public accounts committee. He did a good job at filibustering. In fact, he filibustered right up until the last day, until the chairman left town.

I would like to talk about the action items. He said there was no action. Let me talk about the public accounts committee which finally last week made its report known. There are 29 recommendations. Sixteen of the recommendations have been acted on and 10 are under review. I will talk about the special counsel on financial review which was set up. After that final report there were 19 individuals and companies with settlements and claims by the government to the tune of $41 million. This is another action item.

I would like the member to agree or disagree that those action items that have been put forward on the settlement of claims against Groupaction, Groupe Everest, Gosselin Communications and Jean Lafleur, in his terminology and understanding, are they action items or not? I do not mean going around everywhere and discussing many other things. Let us talk about those action items alone. Are they action items or not?

SupplyGovernment Orders

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

Madam Speaker, frankly I have no idea what the member is talking about, except that as usual he is simply trying to divert attention away from the essential issue here, which is that his party has been involved in the most widespread web of corruption with connections to criminality known in the political history of this country. In the words of the former Liberal minister, the member for Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, this has caused Canada to look like a northern banana republic. It reflects upon how the Liberal Party looks upon the public trust “as a vulture looks upon a dying calf”.

I was on the public accounts committee with that member. He voted against my motion to continue hearing witnesses on May 13 last year. He voted to shut down the committee because he and his boss did not want the truth to be known by the Canadian people.

SupplyGovernment Orders

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Walt Lastewka Liberal St. Catharines, ON

Madam Speaker, on a point of order, I take great exception with that member saying that I or members of the Liberal Party wanted to shut down the committee. The people who filibustered are the opposition, the Conservative Party, in conjunction with their friends in the Bloc, the separatists.

SupplyGovernment Orders

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Monte Solberg Conservative Medicine Hat, AB

Madam Speaker, it is my pleasure to rise today and address this issue. I am grateful that the Bloc Québécois has brought forward this motion. It is very important that we find a way to ensure that money that the Liberal Party has diverted into its own coffers for use during an election campaign, money that belongs to taxpayers, is put in trust so it cannot repeat this again, like it has done in three previous elections, running election campaigns on dirty money.

At the outset, the Conservative Party supports the motion. Right thinking Canadians everywhere will understand the importance of this kind of motion, ensuring that we do not replicate the unbelievable behaviour of the Liberal Party in three previous elections.

There are so many issues I would like to address, but I want to start by addressing some of the things the public works minister stated when he spoke awhile ago.

In talking about the testimony before Judge Gomery, the minister said that these were allegations. He has repeatedly told us how we have to let Judge Gomery do his work and that we should not reflect on testimony. He then turned around and tried to undermine the credibility of witnesses who were appearing before Judge Gomery, calling into question their credibility. However, on the other hand, when it is convenient, he says that we should not reflect on the testimony.

I want to point this out. When people appear before Judge Gomery, these are not just allegations. This is sworn testimony, sworn evidence before a judge. It is important to make that distinction. Many times this testimony is backed up by other witnesses and by documents. Therefore, it is wrong for the public works minister to come here and try to undermine the credibility of what Judge Gomery is doing and undermine the credibility of witnesses when he says that we should not be reflecting upon what is being said before Judge Gomery. I want to point that out at the outset.

This is an issue of incredible importance to Canadians. It is an issue about self-respect. It boils down to whether Canadians have enough respect for themselves that they will finally say that they will no longer tolerate being taken to the cleaners by the Liberal Party of Canada. This is what has happened for a number of years now.

This is not in doubt. There is absolutely no question whether there was money being stolen from the taxpayers and diverted into Liberal Party coffers. The question is how much money was taken? That is the issue, and how broad in scope is this criminal conspiracy. Clearly that is what it is. We have all kinds of evidence that there are not just a few people, but dozens of people involved in what is a broad, far-ranging, criminal conspiracy.

The question that Canadians ultimately have to ask themselves is will they continue to support that kind of behaviour and that kind of government. Even many Liberals are saying, enough is enough. They no longer have faith in the current Prime Minister to get to the bottom of this. In fact, some of them are leaving the Liberal ranks saying that they have had enough and that the Liberals look upon the public as a vulture looks upon a dying calf. That was said by one Liberal member who has now left that caucus.

I know members across the way will say that they have a new Prime Minister now who wants to get to the bottom of this. I want to point out a couple of things.

First, there is sworn testimony before Judge Gomery which says that the Prime Minister had lunch with one of the, as my friend says, principal scam masters or scam artists involved in the sponsorship scandal. We are talking about Claude Boulay. This comes on the heels of testimony from the Prime Minister where he said that he only knew Mr. Boulay in a casual way.

Now we have someone who overheard a conversation, gave sworn testimony, that the Prime Minister and Claude Boulay talked advertising contracts over lunch. This is important. We need to point this out because there are many people who want to believe the current Prime Minister somehow sat apart from this.

Even if we decide that what was heard really did not happen, I want to point to the fact that we have seen the Prime Minister and his government actively try to block getting to the bottom of this issue. I want to point to what happened last year when the Prime Minister came in as the new prime minister and said that he wanted to get to the bottom of this, he would leave no stone unturned, he was mad as hell. We heard all the cliches.

At the same time, we know the government was actively withholding millions of documents from the public accounts committee which were relevant to finding out who was at fault for what had occurred and for finding out how millions of dollars of taxpayer money had been diverted away from what should have been a good purpose and ultimately some of which was diverted into the coffers of the Liberal Party of Canada. Lo and behold when the election finally passed and Judge Gomery was in place, suddenly all those documents became available. I think that points to the government trying to cover up evidence that could have cost it the election.

I would argue that the man who paints himself as the Prime Minister, who wants to address the democratic deficit, is actively involved in undermining democracy. That was a good example of it. However, it does not end there.

During the election campaign we heard the Prime Minister's team say that it had done an audit of the Liberal Party books. That was in the dying days of the campaign when the election was very much up in the air and no one really knew how it would turn out. Liberal government members said that an audit had been undertaken of the Liberal Party books and that everything was clean. Now we find out, several months later, that there was no audit. That was a complete fabrication.

As my friend has pointed out, a forensic auditor has said that when the government characterizes what the auditors did when they looked at the transactions of the Liberal Party as an audit, it is completely out to lunch. I am talking about forensic auditor Al Rosen, a chartered accountant and certified fraud examiner, who said the Liberal government was pulling the wool over the eyes of the public when it characterized the nature of the review that took place during the election campaign as an audit. We need to point that out.

My friends across the way are questioning whether an audit is more indepth than the review that took place. I want to quote from Mr. Rosen who said:

Trying to use these reports to claim that everything is fine within the party is completely inappropriate. That's not what the reports say and what's missing from it is the cash transactions that don't get recorded in the books.

When the Liberals say these things during an election campaign, they are obviously attempting to mislead the public in a craven attempt to hold on to power. Is that addressing the democratic deficit or is that undermining democracy? I would argue it is undermining democracy. It is using dirty money and dirty tactics to hang on to power.

We cannot trust the Prime Minister to get to the bottom of the sponsorship scandal. He is implicated by his actions. I support the motion of the Bloc Québécois. The Conservative Party supports it as well. Let us vote in favour of this so the Liberal Party cannot use dirty money one more time to try to get re-elected in the next election campaign.

SupplyGovernment Orders

12:05 p.m.

St. Catharines Ontario

Liberal

Walt Lastewka LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Works and Government Services

Madam Speaker, I want to point out to the member for Medicine Hat, in case he has forgotten, the three key initiatives that the government implemented.

Remember that we started the quick start on the public accounts committee. The public accounts committee has reported 29 recommendations. Sixteen of those recommendations have been actioned on and 10 are under review. The special counsel on the financial review was set up and now has reported those recommendations.

Nineteen individuals and companies have a settlement of claims in the amount of $41 million on which that has been actioned. The Gomery commission is completing its testimony. As soon as the Gomery commission reports its recommendations, the Prime Minister will action on those recommendations as he has on the previous two initiatives. Canadians want action on the recommendations, not on rhetoric, not on innuendoes, not on allegations.

Canadians have asked that the minority government work. This is exactly what we are attempting to do; make minority government work. The opposition and the separatists do not want minority government to work. They do not want Gomery to report, not any different than when they did not want the public accounts committee to report in the springtime. They filibustered not to have the public accounts committee report. Now they want to do various things to not have the Gomery commission report.

Does the member for Medicine Hat want the Gomery commission to report, yes or no?

SupplyGovernment Orders

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Monte Solberg Conservative Medicine Hat, AB

Madam Speaker, of course we want the Gomery commission to report, and it will have the chance to report. However, I also want to argue that at some point, after mounds of evidence becomes available to the public and the public sees what the government has been up to, the government loses the moral authority to govern. If that happens, I can guarantee that we will take our lead from the public and we will no longer support the government in what it is doing. We will not allow it to get away with this scandalous behaviour that it has been engaged in up until now.

SupplyGovernment Orders

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Madam Speaker, I cannot get over the constant reference to “let Gomery do his job”. I have heard that over and over again.

One day I came to the House and it was announced that the government was taking legal proceedings to collect $41 million from 19 organizations and individuals. I thought to myself that this kind of flies in the face of the comment about letting do his job.

Then I recalled what the Auditor General said when she gave her original report. She said that the Liberal government, in awarding these advertising contracts to these organizations it is now suing, broke every rule in the book.

My question for the member for Medicine Hat is this. We have had three elections in which a party has run a campaign with laundered money, dirty money. They have prejudged 41 organizations already. They have fired some people.

SupplyGovernment Orders

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

They were RCMP investigations, not from Gomery. Get your facts straight. You have to tell us the truth in the House.

SupplyGovernment Orders

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Why would the Liberal Party not just take that money and put it into a trust account, and we are not presuming guilt or anything, so it will be unable to run another election with dirty money?

SupplyGovernment Orders

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Monte Solberg Conservative Medicine Hat, AB

Madam Speaker, I see the member across the way is a little sensitive about this, given the breadth of this scandal and how it paints the Liberal Party. The member on this side makes a very good point.

What we are asking for is to set money aside, money that has come from people and companies implicated in the sponsorship scandal, and put it in a trust account so we can be assured that if we go into another election campaign, the Liberal Party will not use what is potentially and maybe quite likely dirty money to help lever itself into power one more time. That is what we are asking. I think that is fair and that is natural justice. I would be very surprised if the Liberal Party voted against what seems to be a very reasonable proposition.

SupplyGovernment Orders

12:10 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Madam Speaker, I want to congratulate the Bloc Quebecois for bringing forward this motion today. I want to read the motion before us:

That the House call on the government to immediately establish—

SupplyGovernment Orders

12:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

SupplyGovernment Orders

12:10 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Mr. Speaker, is there a point of order?

SupplyGovernment Orders

12:10 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Order, please. I would invite hon. members to find another venue in which to continue their discussion unless they have a point of order. The member for Windsor—Tecumseh has the floor. We should listen to him. Other discussions should take place behind the curtains.

SupplyGovernment Orders

12:10 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Mr. Speaker, I think that exchange cost me a minute. I hope it is not taken off my time.

I want to repeat the motion that the Bloc Québécois introduced in this House:

That the House call on the government to immediately establish a trust account into which the Liberal Party of Canada can deposit all funds received from companies and individuals tied to the sponsorship scandal and identified in testimony before the Gomery Commission.

It is difficult to be a member of Parliament at this point in the history of Canada.

I vacillate between outrage and anger and, quite frankly, a sense of depression as a member of this House, as a member representing this government, all of us, not just members of the Liberal Party but all of us. This scandal has tainted all of us. We know that because when we are on the street or in airports and are identified as members of Parliament, we hear two things: “When are you going to throw 'em out?” and “You're all the same”. How often have we heard that?

Thus, I really am quite strong in my support for this motion, because it gives this Liberal government an opportunity, if it follows through on the contents of this motion, to perhaps address, even to a small degree, the black mark that is going to be left by this government, the legacy that is going to be left.

Obviously the NDP is going to support this motion. NDP members are almost at the stage of begging the government to finally recognize its responsibility. It is interesting to note that, last week, the NDP member for Elmwood—Transcona, and this week, the member for Ottawa Centre, both very experienced members, one a former leader of our party, both admonished the Prime Minister and gave him the opportunity to take that responsibility, to stop pointing fingers everyplace else and bring it home to roost where it should be.

I come from a French Canadian background. I fully sense the outrage, and yes, the humiliation, that the province of Quebec has experienced. Again, we have given the Prime Minister and the government the opportunity on many occasions in the House to step up to the plate and take responsibility. They owe a public apology to each and every citizen of the province of Quebec. Government members repeatedly stand in the House like little children saying, “It's not me. It's him. It's Mr. Gagliano. It's Corriveau. It's Boulay. It's everybody but us”. This motion gives them that opportunity.

We already have heard arguments from several of the Liberals members who are saying that they have to wait for Gomery to finish his work or they have to be sure they do not interfere with the presumption of innocence. We are so far beyond those arguments. This is not about the question of presumption of innocence. This is about public morality and public ethics.

This is about this government recognizing, as every Canadian citizen does, that the Liberals have tainted money in their Liberal Party coffers. It gives the Liberals the opportunity to say they recognize this, as does the Canadian public as a whole, and they are prepared to address that problem.

It gives them the opportunity to say, “We will set up this trust fund. We will impress upon the Liberal Party of Canada that for any funds we have from those individuals and those corporations that have ripped off the Canadian taxpayer, the Canadian citizen, we will put that money in trust and we will return that money”. That is one of the points of the trust fund. This gives the government the opportunity to say that this money will be returned to Canadian government coffers when it is appropriate to do so, and the Liberals will not go into this next election and benefit from that money, that they will take it out of their coffers and give it to the Government of Canada. It is a pretty simple concept, one that I believe every Canadian understands but which this government does not get.

I want to speak for a few minutes about the damage from the conduct of this government in reacting to the accusations and the evidence that have come out around the sponsorship scandal and what it has done to our international reputation. In that regard, there is a scale that an NGO puts out. It is quite respected and quite accurate in most cases. The scale in 1995 had Canada fifth in the world. There were only four other countries ahead of us. By 2001 when the initial scandal was breaking, when the initial knowledge was coming out about the scandal, we had dropped to 11th place.

We do not have the most recent rating, but we can imagine what just the last couple of weeks of testimony before the Gomery commission have done, just that alone. We have obviously dropped to way down on that list. The reason we have dropped on that list is not just the scandal, the misconduct and the illegality; it is also the reaction of the government when something like this breaks.

We keep hearing the Liberals say, “But we have done this, we appointed the Gomery commission. We have put in place some lawsuits. We have appointed a special legal adviser. We have introduced legislation on whistleblowers”. But in each and every case and any number of other ones they may want to bring forward in terms of their response, it is the Canadian taxpayer who is funding this. This has cost this Liberal Party and this Liberal government not one red cent. They just keep putting money up; your money, Mr. Speaker, my money, and the money of the taxpayers of Canada, and that figure is growing.

To rely on information from the CBC and the analysis it did in the last couple of days, these are huge dollars. The CBC estimates $72 million as of this week, and it is growing. Some of this is hidden in many respects. Justice Gomery has spent $32 million for the work that he and his commission have done, and for the commission counsel and funding provided to parties that are part of the commission. That is $32 million.

There is an additional $40 million internal to the government. Justice Gomery and the commission counsel indicated this week that they do not believe they will go beyond the $32 million. They see the end in sight for what it will cost. I have to say that I am always a bit worried about an estimate that clear, but I am fully confident it will be very close and will not exceed it by much.

There is also the $40 million the government has spent among various departments. It is not over and it is going to grow. This week the Liberals announced that lawyers from within the government, defending the government and parts of the government and former civil servants, just got an additional $10 million in legal fees.

A point needs to be made about this because of some of the comments made by the public works minister earlier today about the mandate of Justice Gomery. He in fact has no mandate and is specifically prohibited in his mandate from making any determination of not only criminal liability, which is understandable because our criminal courts have not dealt with those people who have been charged so far and presumably more that are coming, but he is also not allowed to make any determination of civil liability.

What that means, taking out the legal terminology, is that he cannot say that Mr. Guité or Mr. Corriveau are responsible for this $1 million or that $5 million or that $6.7 million. He is prohibited from doing that under his mandate.

There are additional costs: our international reputation and what it is costing us for the Gomery commission. Let us go back for a minute to how much it has cost us in the sponsorship program.

As much as the public works minister wants us to believe that this money was used for good causes, some of it was but a large amount of it was not. It went to fees and commissions for which absolutely no work was performed.

It would appear, from the evidence that has been coming before the Gomery commission inquiry, that a significant amount of that money was filtered into both the Liberal Party of Quebec and the Liberal Party of Canada in donations.

In addition, it is clear from the sworn testimony that money that did not go into their coffers, services that were rendered, not accounted for and not attributed to the party, were also delivered. People were put on staff in private corporations but they were working entirely for the Liberal Party of Canada and no attribution of their salaries or benefits, which is clearly a breach of the law and part of the scandal.

To some degree what the motion by the Bloc Québécois does is it gives the government an opportunity. Mr. Brault testified that $1.2 million in benefits and services never showed up on the Liberal Party's books, but the Liberals used that $1.2 million in the last election. That money should be paid into this fund and held until the terms of the trust are met and then paid to the Canadian government.

An additional several hundred thousand dollars went directly in contributions, probably as much as $800 thousand, from individuals and corporations involved in this scandal. That should be paid into this fund and it should be paid out of the funds of the Liberal Party.

The point that was made earlier today, which I support, is that this should not come from the rebates that we get, either as a party at the time of election or the ongoing support that is paid by the government to support political parties based on how well they did in the last election.

There is no question that the Liberal Party of Canada in the last election and probably in the two previous ones benefited from this dirty money. It should not be allowed to do that again in this coming election.

Let me just talk about the coming election. I think the point was made again today that Canadians, overwhelmingly, delivered the message after the last election that they wanted this minority government to function. A poll this week showed that 87% of the country still feels that way.

However we are getting a mixed message from the electorate because it is quite clear, both from the opinion polls and from what we hear when we go back to our ridings and talk to our constituents, that they are so angry and so outraged at the conduct of the government, both in the scandal and in their reaction to the scandal, that they want the government out of office.

We know it costs between $200 million and $250 million to run an election in this country. I believe, from everything that I see in this House and the frenzy that is going on in the country generally, that we will have an election after less than one year and that election will cost the Canadian taxpayers $200 million to $250 million.

We would have spent that money eventually but it should have been over a four year term period rather than a nine month one. This will be another added cost of this scandal.

I want to go back to the province of Quebec and the abuse that it has taken on this. I think one of the reasons that both my party and the Conservative Party are quite willing and, in fact, proud to support the motion is that it is coming from the Bloc Québécois.

As the Bloc leader made clear in his address today, he remains a sovereignist, I remain a federalist and we respect each other's position. However he and I know that the individual voter in Quebec has been humiliated and that another cost will come from the high risk of another referendum over Quebec's separation. We have to expect that this humiliation, this anger and this outrage from individual voters in Quebec will translate itself into support for the sovereignist movement. This is another cost of this scandal.

We have the cost for the Gomery commission. We have the cost of the scandal itself and those costs add up, it would appear, to at least into the $200 million range. We have the cost of a coming election, again in the $200 million to $250 million range. We have the cost to our international reputation but, perhaps most important, we have the cost of democracy.

This scandal has damaged democracy in this country. It has grossly increased the cynicism of all the electorate toward politicians generally. It has undermined our faith and our confidence in our public system of government. It will take a generation or better to repair that. The motion today gives the government the opportunity to start us down that road.

I do not have much hope, quite frankly, that the Liberals will take advantage of this opportunity because they have had so many up to this point over the last few years and not once have responded. Not once have they come to the front of this chamber and admitted their responsibility or admitted where the system broke down, and they will probably not do it now. They do not get it but the electorate will punish them in the election that is coming. However our democracy will still suffer.

SupplyGovernment Orders

12:30 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I see that several members wish to ask questions. I would therefore call on members to ask short questions, beginning with the member for Mississauga—South.

SupplyGovernment Orders

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, there is no question that a wide range of allegations have been made by a number of people, and some certainly before the Gomery commission that were referred to the RCMP for which charges were laid prior to all of this coming forward.

The motion now before the House would constitute an admission of guilt on allegations that have not been completely cross-examined and not all witnesses have been heard. Would the member not concede that there has been at least a commitment, and that we should wait to hear the Gomery report findings and the complete evidence, which may lead to charges being laid for wrongdoings, and then legal proceedings can take place?

Would the member not agree that to have the full information on the table is absolutely essential to making sure justice is served?

SupplyGovernment Orders

12:30 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

No, Mr. Speaker, I do not agree. The standard of conduct that I and the motion asks for is one that is ingrained in the history of our democracy as it has developed.

We have a higher standard as public servants, both elected and appointed, than what people in the general populous of this country have.

Yes, if we go into a courtroom, a standard that my friend from Mississauga South is expressing, there is a presumption of innocence. However where we are at and the criteria and the standard that we are looking at for ourselves is a much higher one. It is one that says that we have more than enough evidence, whether it came from the Auditor General, the sworn testimony or from other witnesses. Those facts are enough at this point for the Liberals to say to the Canadian public that they believe so much of this money is tainted. I think Canadians believe and know the money is tainted.

Maybe at the end of the day some of the money will be returned by the Liberal Party but we need to set the standard high so that cynicism does not increase toward politicians and toward government. That is the standard we are working toward, not the one for our criminal courts.

SupplyGovernment Orders

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the Bloc Québécois for bringing forward this motion.

It is sad that the Liberals have offensively tainted the good work and efforts of many groups and organizations that have volunteered and worked for Canadian unity over the years by putting in their own money and volunteered their own time and efforts.

I was involved with groups and organizations before my time in Parliament and before I was even a member of the former Reform Party. I was on a special committee for Canadian unity and I flew to Montreal with my wife to bring this organization back to Edmonton and western Canada to work on unity efforts. This was following the 1995 referendum in Quebec.

I am sure the Bloc leader heard my maiden speech in this House when I referred to this organization and to the efforts of many people and organizations and the work I have been doing in supporting Canadian unity.

We may not like the direction of the various parties or the Bloc Québécois versus our seeking to support Canadian unity but we respect each other. We respect the efforts if the efforts are conducted civilly and legally.

I have a question for my colleague. In question period yesterday, when the Prime Minister pathetically attempted to deflect the scandal by fearmongering on health care, is there really no depth that the Liberals will sink to in order to stay in power?

SupplyGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Mr. Speaker, my feelings are quite obvious from some of the comments I made before and the pride I expressed in the comments and the reaction from our member for Ottawa Centre to that tactic.

I could not help but think of the Old Testament prophets who would challenge the king. What the member for Ottawa Centre was saying to the Prime Minister was that the Prime Minister's conduct was so reprehensible that it undermined this House, it undermined the Prime Minister's responsibility to this House to deal with appropriate questions coming from the opposition and it undermined democracy as a whole.

If I can put it more at the street level, it is like someone slapping a kid on the side of the head for misbehaving while at the same time telling the kid to behave and apologize. When the member for Ottawa Centre did that yesterday what did we get from the Prime Minister? He received more of the same.

SupplyGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

Bloc

Benoît Sauvageau Bloc Repentigny, QC

Mr. Speaker, as I do not have much time, my question will be very simple.

I disagree totally with the member for Mississauga South, who alleges that offering the Liberals an opportunity to set money aside, for as long as we are not certain that money is clean, goes against the presumption of innocence. In my opinion, this is nonsense.

My question is for the NDP member. Would the real reason the Liberals adamantly refuse to put this dirty money into a trust account, not simply be that they have spent it, that they do not have enough money for the next electoral campaign and that, again, they will campaign with dirty money?

SupplyGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague from the Bloc for this question. I agree with him. They might have no money, but we know they do have the capacity to borrow it if needed.

I want to draw attention to something else. When the Parti Québécois was identified as one of the parties which had received money from these firms, it immediately responded by doing what is requested today in this motion. The leaders of that party said they would immediately return that money, without asking questions. This is dirty money and they did not want to have it in their possession. They said they would refund it and they did just that.

SupplyGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

NDP

Alexa McDonough NDP Halifax, NS

Mr. Speaker, I want to commend the member for, as usual, bringing his superb legal skills and knowledge to bear on the very serious issues that are before us. He has spoken ever so clearly as to why we as politicians and parliamentarians have to be prepared to meet a higher standard of public conduct than is normally thought to be required of the average person and the average institution. Such is the nature of holding public office.

I have a question that arises out of the member's reference to the 2005 global corruption report, which shows that Canada has descended, almost tumbled, from fourth to 11th place in terms of being clear of major corruption. Canada was in 11th place actually before the shocking revelations of the systematic corruption that is eating away at the Liberal Party and destroying the credibility of the government.

We know that corruption can cost governments and countries. It can even cost people their lives in some instances. I wonder if the member might speak more directly to what it is costing in terms of the confidence in our democratic system, costing in terms of the democratic processes that go to the very heart of our--

SupplyGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The hon. member for Windsor—Tecumseh.

SupplyGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Mr. Speaker, the cost was the international reputation as a viable democratic government speaking out across the globe against corruption. It is hypocritical that the former prime minister would go to Africa and say that we are going to develop a program to assist it but that Africa must clean up the corruption, that it is endemic on that continent and it has to be cleaned up. What level of hypocrisy is that? Domestically, some people feel they are justified in not paying their taxes and not obeying the law when they see this kind of corruption going on.