House of Commons Hansard #87 of the 38th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was cfia.

Topics

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:20 a.m.

Bloc

Denise Poirier-Rivard Bloc Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

Madam Speaker, I think that human health cannot come with a price tag.

As I have said, the Bloc Québécois supports the recommendations in question.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Leon Benoit Conservative Vegreville—Wainwright, AB

Madam Speaker, I have a question for the member who has just spoken about the issue of compensation. We heard one of my colleagues earlier clearly describe in some detail the situation. I think the member described how a person on an acreage used peacocks to decorate and make their home an extremely attractive place. The CFIA came in and destroyed the birds in a way that seemed ridiculous. That is not the issue I am asking about.

To my knowledge, and I believe this is accurate, there has been no compensation whatsoever offered to this individual for $100,000 or tens of thousands of dollars worth of birds that had been raised over the years.

I would like to ask the member about the issue of compensation. Does she believe that we should have property rights enshrined in the Constitution in this country? If the government removes property from an individual, and from time to time that is required and I acknowledge that, there will be fair market value compensation.

With respect to that flock of birds which had taken years to raise, it was worth a lot of money. There has been no compensation forthcoming. The destruction of the birds was done when there was no evidence that they could make the problem worse.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:20 a.m.

Bloc

Denise Poirier-Rivard Bloc Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

Madam Speaker, I believe the committee report states that there will be a review of compensation costs, since this has not been done. I think the committee will address that at another time. There will surely be a review in order to determine a fair and equitable share for this crop.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Bev Desjarlais NDP Churchill, MB

Madam Speaker, our colleague representing the Liberal government previously asked questions regarding recommendation No. 1 and why there is a need for another inquiry.

I know the difficult work that committees do on a regular basis. Obviously, the committee felt that the previous investigations or inquiries that were done were lacking in some manner. I would appreciate the comments of my colleague from the Bloc on that.

I would also appreciate her comments on the government's criticism of an inquiry in this area. Over the years we have listened to the government on so many other issues, whether it is residential schools, the treatment of aboriginals or numerous other areas. There the government holds inquiry after inquiry, and study after study. There never seems to be any problem holding an inquiry on those issues.

On the issue that is directly related to the health of the industry, as well as the health of individuals, the government seems to have an objection to another inquiry to determine what happened.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:25 a.m.

Bloc

Denise Poirier-Rivard Bloc Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

Madam Speaker, as I said, the Bloc Québécois supports the first recommendation, which I will read again:

That an independent commission of inquiry be struck with the mandate to investigate the 2004 avian influenza outbreak in British Columbia. To prevent the reoccurrence of outbreaks, the commission must review the effectiveness of the emergency preparedness and implementation strategies that were deployed in British Columbia, regarding zoonotic diseases.

The Bloc Québécois supports this recommendation.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Madam Speaker, I heard the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Agriculture indicate that he was not part of the hearings, mainly because he was going from place to place in the country dealing with the farm income crisis, which was more related to the BSE. Part of the problem we have in the whole picture is that. We are working on a knee-jerk reaction from time to time instead of having a policy and plan in place in advance, with rules of engagement so everybody knows what they need to do.

What we have is a sort of an on the spot plan put together that is ad hoc or knee-jerk which tries to deal with a crisis that is more than just a producer crisis. It is a national crisis. It is something in which the country needs to be involved and interested. It is not just a question of asking for an independent commission of inquiry. It is pure politics.

I agree to some measure with the parliamentary secretary that perhaps we do not need more commissions, studies or reviews. That seems to be the way things are done. In this case stakeholders want to be heard. Because it was a thing with such impact, they need to be heard and we need to accommodate them.

We can say that the stakeholders had a serious outbreak and that they did not have the kind of management required to meet the crisis. We need to have something in place that would be rapid, responsive and that would take care of situations like this. It may be Asian influenza this time or an outbreak of something else next time. It may be a political action that crosses the borders or it may be something like BSE. We can understand and know that we will be facing these kinds of things on an emergency crisis basis at any point of time. It is not a time to get ready when the crisis develops and it is not just the producers who are involved. We must have a national policy that involves all people of our country. It must involve us as a nation.

When we have these kinds of incidents and crises, there is a cost component to them. There is a secondary impact. It is not just dealing with the disease or the crisis. What is the economic impact not only to the producers but to our country? Billions of dollars are lost if we do not take appropriate action in containing or dealing with the crisis.

When we look at the producers, it has always been my view that producers should be responsible for sound management on the farm. Producers should be able to look after their businesses and should operate them efficiently. However, when producers are faced with a crisis that is more than just a local one or provincial one but deals with something on an international basis, or across province basis or North American basis, then our government must have some type of scheme to not only address the problem but to deal with the secondary fallout and with the preservation of the industry.

We see that in our farming community. Where I am from in Saskatchewan, farmers are shutting down. They are not farmers who are unable to farm. They are farmers who have farmed economically and who have been able to produce better than perhaps anyone else in the world. They have used the best technology and equipment and they have worked hard. However, they still are unable to make it because commodity prices have fallen, or production costs are too high or there is an international influence that is beyond their control.

The government must stand behind our primary producers, whatever primary producer with whom we may be dealing, to ensure that they will continue as an industry, as a sector in our country. We cannot allow them to dissipate and disappear, and that is what is happening in Saskatchewan.

My constituency is large, with two cities of 10,000 and many small communities spread throughout the riding, When I drive through by constituency, I see farms starting to shut down. If one tries to find a farmer's wife, or one of the family members, they are probably in town working. They need a second job to support the family operation. That is not the way we should operate business. We need to have something in place to deal with these crises that are larger and bigger than the producer himself or herself.

The parliamentary secretary has said that to some extent, politics are being played and blame is being put on people when blame should not be put on them. However, let us look at some of the people who have spoken on this issue.

I am reading from the report itself, which says:

Proper management of AI is a public good as human and animal health authorities world-wide recognize...funds set aside to compensate for loss of birds and business interruption so nothing stands in the way of a quick, surgical pre-emptive cull.

They are asking for that kind of a policy. More important, one of the comments was as follows:

It is ludicrous that the disease was not contained in the...flat area. Again it is because of procrastination and lack of common sense. We spent a huge amount of time waiting for decisions to come from Ottawa, and most of the time local CFIA staff didn’t know how to interpret those decisions

In itself that has nothing to do with politics or with us politicizing the incident. It is just saying that communications were not good. There was not a quick, rapid ability to have a response in a logical, common sense way to contain the problem when the problem was identified. It was like the left hand not knowing what the right hand was doing and there was nobody to ask what to do.

We need to have someone in place who is in charge, someone in place who knows in advance what the rules of engagement are so he or she can say, when a crisis develops, “Here is how we are going to tackle it. Here is what we are going to do”. We need to have somebody in charge, not the Ottawa bureaucratic way of doing things by referring it to one department, then to another department, then having some contradictory opinions, then discussing it for a week or a month while this crisis is ongoing, particularly a disease that is airborne and spreads.

We look at the actions that are being taken. When a thing is airborne, we take measures to deal with the birds that cause yet more of a problem and cause the disease to be airborne to the next community and then the next farm. That is the inappropriate thing to do.

Why is that happening in a society in a day when we have the scientific basis, the knowledge, the communication means and everything at our disposal to deal with it rapidly? It is happening because we have not put a plan in place and we do not have a commander in chief or someone in charge who says that this is s what we will do, here is how we will do it, we will do it effectively and we will do it quickly. What we are asking is for something to happen in a reasoned, logical, common sense way.

One report from the Primary Poultry Processors Association of B.C. in the hearings said, “If there is another outbreak? There should be a total lock-down–no movement of birds or manure”. It is saying that here is just a simple thing we need to understand and do. It is something of which we need to be aware. It is not just an issue of playing politics when we look at the past. We look at the past with the view of identifying the problems so we can deal with them in the future in a responsible and appropriate manner.

It is a picture that is not just isolated to the community we are talking about here. The same principles and basics apply to every crisis situation. What a crisis situation demands is an understanding of the facts and the incidents around the crisis. Then it requires decisive, rapid action and a rapid response.

I notice that recommendation one flowed into recommendation two, which was that the Auditor General of Canada be asked to audit the effectiveness of various emergency preparedness strategies. I suppose I can support that, except that we probably do not need an audit to indicate it was not appropriate and as effective as it should have been. We know the results and consequences. It is more like, what kind of a system and process do we need in place so it does not happen again and that indeed the action is far more appropriate in the future.

Recommendation three requested a special animal disease response team, comprising various experts. There is no doubt in my mind that there needs to be a rapid, specific, strategic response team not only for a crisis like we experienced, but in every type of crisis that we may have to face. It does not take a lot of stretching of the imagination to know that in the world we live in today, with globalization and everything that has happened, we will have to deal with issues that are far bigger than we are individually.

We can expect there will be a crisis in the food industry. We can expect there will be a crisis in the health industry. We can expect there will be a crisis in the economic fallout from that. We can plan for it now, in advance, and have a fund ready to deal with the issues when they need to be dealt with.

It does not take a lot of genius to understand that these things will happen and that we need to be prepared and have specific strategic teams in place to deal with those issues as they come into place.

As always, there is no question that systems are very important. When we deal with health and with food, we must be able not only to identify a particular item of food in the food chain from beginning to end, but we must be able to do it with precision and deal with it quickly.

I appreciate there is a cost component to that, but it is a cost component that we must bear. It is something we must talk about as a nation. When something develops and unfolds, we must be prepared to stop its tracks with accuracy so we can put some confidence into the market and the world community that we in Canada not only have the best system in the world for raising and preserving food, but also we have the best system in place for checking it, identifying it and keeping it safe throughout. It does not require much more than good management, good management practices and some initiative.

Look at the dollars we have spent on some things in and around this capital. Look at some of the waste that we have seen, billions of dollars. Those dollars would be better spent to put in an integrated, safe, well-connected food supply system that would ensure our food supply into the generations.

My sense is if we do not take the time and the money and do it now, if it does not cost us as a nation now, it will some day, some place, when there are no farmers on the ground or when there are no producers in a particular sector or industry because they have been unable to survive or handle the cost and the economy of it themselves.

When there has been a crisis situation, what we have done is to said to them that they be responsible for our ineffectiveness and that they be responsible for our negligence. We have said that they should use their equity which they have built up over the years to solve the problem. In other words, they should mortgage their farms and buildings and use up all the equities they have gained over the years of operation to get us through the crisis because they are obligated to do it. The fact is this is a national interest and it is something in which we all should share.

Many primary producers have faced crises that are beyond their control. They are national, interprovincial and are bigger than their own industry. They have utilized their own equities to keep us going as a nation. Some are throwing in the towel. Some are saying that it is enough.

In my constituency 49 auction sales for farmland have been held this spring. In the province 170 auction sales have been held. People are going out of business. A farm implement dealer who has combines, tractors and seeders is selling all of that in an auction sale because he cannot afford to go on.

Why is that happening? Because the government has not placed primary producers in agriculture at the national level where they ought to be. It has not stood behind them so they can continue the industry. When those farmers are gone and those primary producers have left, someone will have to fill the vacuum and produce that which we require, and it will cost us a lot more than it is now.

The report speaks about a compensation package and the need to be flexible and adaptable to the situation. I agree with that report. When we deal with the particular industry, it is not just the animal or the particular bird that is in question, there are some secondary economic consequences at which we need to look. The report in fact speaks about that. It says that there is an interface between animal and human health, enhanced emergency management and industry and community economic recovery.

Everything is intertwined. There is no such thing as saying that we can have a crisis in the poultry industry or the cattle industry and it will just affect a particular farm or community. It goes far beyond that. Those dollars travel through our economy. Those dollars travel into the grocery store and to the shoe store and to the car repair shop. It is those kinds of things that keep the basic society going.

When we do not look after the primary producer, when we do not look after those who are instrumental to the economy, it slowly but surely shuts down the community. It shuts down the implement dealers. It shuts down the businesses. Many communities are regressing on the Prairies. The problem is far larger than just an isolated disease. The government and the minister need to look at the broader picture.

One of the lessons that was clearly learned is that effective preparation and response to foreign animal disease outbreaks in Canada must be seen as a shared responsibility. I will accept that as well. It is something that must be dealt with at the national level, at the provincial level, at the municipal level. It must include not only the food inspection agencies but also the local experts, veterinarians and others who are familiar with the industry. There must be a coordinated effort by all parties.

The report states:

The Standing Committee hopes that the lessons learned will help avert similar mistakes in the future, because it is almost certain that there could be other outbreaks of animal diseases in the future.

It is nothing new under the sun, so to speak. We can expect things like this to happen from time to time and we need to be ready.

The main lesson learned by the people of the Fraser Valley is that proper management of avian influenza or other diseases is a matter of public health and safety and it requires the proper reaction of public authorities. What are they saying? They are saying they are not playing politics, that public authorities have a responsibility.

Public authorities have a due diligence requirement. They must not just talk about issues. They must understand them. They must take the time and put in the energy to understand the problem, to have a plan, to ensure it is carried out and to communicate it effectively. They must ensure that there are no foul ups along the way, that it is properly administered. There is a due diligence requirement. They are expecting that from those in public authority. That certainly would mean the government of this country.

The report cites some examples of how the disease was handled and it was somewhat shocking. It said that one of the cull requirements released vast quantities of virus into the environment associated with the depopulation procedures employed and there was a delay in the depopulation process”.

What do we need? We need an emergency response team. We need a cohesive plan of attack. We need to have an organization that has the personnel in charge who are prepared to be direct, who are prepared to be effective, who can make decisions quickly, who can make the right decisions, and who in advance of the problem take into account the stakeholders' interests. They must have done their logistics planning in advance. They must have foreseen the problem and gone forward.

In fact the report states that there needs to be a vision. There needs to be direction. We have to look at the big picture and settle in our minds what it is that we want to accomplish and make it simple. It cannot be complicated. It cannot be 20 pages. The problem has to be synthesized into two or three principles as the principles we are going to adhere to, and the principles we are going to proceed with. If there is a good foundation and understanding of those principles, then we can go forward and be effective in doing what ought to be done.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:45 a.m.

Malpeque P.E.I.

Liberal

Wayne Easter LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food (Rural Development)

Madam Speaker, I certainly appreciate a lot of the remarks made by the member for Souris—Moose Mountain, especially his comments that there needs to be response team personnel in place who need to be proactive. He laid out a number of needs.

If he would go back to the remarks I made earlier, he would see that all the needs he outlined have now been met. Why should there be another study to meet the needs that have already been met in terms of the action plan outlined by the CFIA? Another study would take human and financial resources away from doing what needs to be done. It would go over old history.

The member said that it is not an issue of playing politics when looking at the past. However, it is an issue of politics when one fails to recognize what has been done to rectify the mistakes of the past and one continues to talk about those things for which there is already an action plan to overcome. It is politics when a study is called for on an issue which has already been studied three times and one fails to recognize the action plan that has been put in place to address the points raised by those studies. That is playing politics.

As I said earlier in my remarks, this is a different Parliament. This is a Parliament in which the minority parties themselves have to accept some responsibility for the decisions made. The parties over there do not want to recognize what has been done. They want to continue to rehash old ground. They want to talk about all the bad things of the past even though recommendations have been put in place to overcome them. That is not being responsible on the part of minority parties. That is being irresponsible. It is costly to the Canadian public and the farm communities because of the financial and human resources that would be taken up by conducting another study on an issue which the parliamentary committee itself studied.

The member said that we did not have a management plan in place, that we took a long time and procrastinated. Let us put the facts on the table. A provincial lab said there was a problem on February 15. On February 16 it went to a federal lab. The virus was an H7 virus subtype and that was known on February 18. The flock was destroyed on February 19. That was under the old plan.

As a result of some of the complaints, new plans are now in place. Any suspicion will be acted on within 48 hours. The farm will be frozen down. A pre-emptive cull agreement is in place. That is the action plan that is in place. Let us at least put some of the facts on the table.

The member quoted from the report and went through the old history. My point is that the government and the agency have recognized those problems. I laid out 10 points earlier which address those problems. All I am saying is that this is a good report from the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food, but for heaven's sake, let us be responsible and not conduct another study. Let us review this in a year's time and make sure that the plan laid out by the CFIA has been followed through on. Let us not rehash the past, which the party opposite continually wants to do.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Madam Speaker, it was interesting to hear the parliamentary secretary say that we do not want to go back into history. He does not want us to talk about all the problems the government has faced.

This crisis that happened in British Columbia was not something new. Is the parliamentary secretary suggesting the government did not have the study before, that it did not understand? Is he suggesting that this issue just arose, that it was a first time event, and now that we have experienced it we do not have to look at it again because we know how to handle it? Where was the minister and his department prior to this outbreak? Was there not a study done? Was there not some emphasis placed on how we should put things together?

I for one agree that we do not need more studies just for the sake of studies, except to say that the stakeholders involved in this crisis, those who were damaged and put off the farm, those who lost millions of dollars in the industry and may not be able to recover, want to speak further on this issue. Perhaps the government might learn something. Perhaps it might learn where it should improve things.

There is nothing wrong with that recommendation in principle. The government should take the stakeholders' views into account. I agree that it has taken some measures and made some steps forward. I agree that we need to have somebody in charge who will ensure this does not happen again. However, it would not hurt the government to learn a little more. If the stakeholders want it, they should have that opportunity.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Menzies Conservative Macleod, AB

Madam Speaker, I would like to commend my colleague from Souris--Moose Mountain on his understanding of and compassion for the issue. He speaks very well for his constituents, the many farmers who have been impacted not so much by this issue perhaps but by the many other crises in agriculture.

I would like to bring up an issue which maybe the committee did not look at. Did the committee look at the fact that there were a lot of opportunities for getting away from the recurrence of an outbreak like this in Canada by looking at the opportunities in the province of Saskatchewan? That is where feed is raised.

Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Alberta produce most of the feed, yet the concentration of the poultry industry and many other livestock industries is intensified where the population is. Maybe we should be looking at producing more poultry in Saskatchewan. That would make sense to me. Spreading out the distance between livestock operations would be a simple way of getting away from the opportunity for diseases to spread.

I would like to know if the hon. member thinks that makes sense. Have his constituents been asking for that sort of consideration in this study?

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Madam Speaker, that was a point well made and it makes a lot of sense. Saskatchewan certainly has the infrastructure to handle that. It is something the government and the minister should consider. From a scientific point of view, obviously if the industry were spread apart, there would not be the same difficulty that the report talked about. Perhaps that should have been done.

It is interesting to note that the government has had two years with respect to the BSE crisis and the poultry industry as well to establish some plants in Saskatchewan. Although it has talked about this to some extent in the budget and it has talked about it on paper, the government has yet to produce some evidence that some money has actually been put into a food processing or slaughterhouse capacity, or even any kind of marketing plan or industry initiative in my home province.

Outside of saying there is a problem, the government has done very little. If we are looking for some concrete evidence of the government's having put its money where its mouth is, we will not find it. Our primary producers in Saskatchewan are ready, willing and able to take the challenge. If the government would put some energy, some initiative and some dollars into the province, we would welcome that.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Boshcoff Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

Madam Speaker, the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food has presented a thorough and, on the whole, balanced appraisal of the need to learn the lessons of the avian influenza outbreak.

As the report acknowledges, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency recognizes that there is room to improve. It goes on to say that all stakeholders could have been better prepared. The report states, “No matter how careful the preparation there are always uncontrollable events”.

That is the nature of emergency planning. We can and we must prepare for emergencies. Many steps can be taken to improve an emergency management system but with every emergency comes new developments not foreseen in the contingency plans.

Perhaps the true test of an excellent emergency response system is: first, how well it follows the recognized procedures for controlling the situation; second, how effectively it responds for the unexpected; and third, how effectively it incorporates the lessons learned so that we may be better prepared the next time.

On each of these tests I believe Canada has demonstrated that we have an excellent system. Canada's system of following the acknowledged procedures was attested to by an international panel of experts. Following the eradication of the outbreak, the government asked the panel to give its opinion of the response. The panel found that the disease control actions were consistent with internationally accepted principles. It found that the surveillance system and the surveillance protocols were appropriate. It found that the movement restrictions, procedures for destruction of infected birds and disposal of infected birds and products were all appropriate. It found that pre-emptive depopulation, the process for considering exemptions and the cleaning and disinfection procedures were appropriate.

An independent panel of international experts said that the CFIA did the right things. In fact, the panellists complimented the CFIA on its response. One panellist highlighted such features as the very good level of cooperation between the CFIA, its provincial counterparts and other provincial and municipal authorities.

Another expert wrote:

The logistics of this whole operation was huge, and improvisation of machinery available to deal with this problem was a credit to those concerned.

Another panellist wrote:

Canada was adequately prepared to deal with the outbreak of highly pathogenic avian influenza and had in place the appropriate regulations, veterinary infrastructure, and resources to facilitate the successful eradication of the disease.

Therefore, on the first test of an effective emergency system, Canada has received the acclaim of our international colleagues.

However we recognize that some of our linkages with our partners in the provinces and the industry could have been stronger and we are working on that through the recommendations of the lessons learned report.

What about the second test, the ability to respond to unforeseen circumstances? When the mission from the European commission made its final report it praised the innovative measures and the improvements to the procedures that emerged in light of new developments.

Let me give the House one example where decisive action on the part of the Canadian Food Inspection Agency moved beyond the standard procedures and made a significant impact.

When the first case of avian influenza was detected there were two possible strains: one, a low pathogenic variety; the other, highly pathogenic, or HP. The response to HP avian influenza calls for a much more dramatic response in restricting movement within a control zone. The tests to determine whether the disease is high or low pathogenicity require about a week for the results. In that amount of time a highly pathogenic strain could spread far.

Even though the standard procedures recommended that decisions be based on scientific evidence and even though there were many voices that recommended against imposing control restriction for HP avian influenza, the CFIA acted decisively. It determined that it would not risk the possibility that this strain was highly pathogenic.

I would recommend to the House that this was not a popular decision at the time, but as it turned out, it was the right decision and the CFIA is to be highly commended for making a decision that, in the end, was instrumental in controlling and eradicating the disease so quickly.

Canada did well in the first two tests in effective emergency response system. It followed the accepted procedures, but where new developments arose, it responded quickly and decisively.

The third test is whether we learn how to improve the system so that we are better prepared the next time. Here again, the committee's report acknowledges that considerable effort is being made to draw upon our experiences to apply the lessons.

In addition to the standing committee's own hearings, there was a Canadian poultry industry forum in Abbotsford last October. The CFIA has conducted a process entitled “Lessons Learned Review” that forms the basis of building a better emergency response system.

There are places where the recommendations from the report before us augment the action plan developed by the CFIA but, unfortunately, there is one recommendation that would sidetrack some of the excellent work that is already under way. I do not believe that we need another commission to study the events of last year, not when the committee itself has been so thorough, open and transparent in obtaining the input from witnesses.

As a former mayor and a former president of three provincial municipal organizations over a 22 year period, I am very aware of the processes of emergency planning, emergency response and emergency reporting and analysis. The reports that we have seen seek to improve a system that was tested by the crisis a year ago when the flu broke out in the lower Fraser Valley. The outbreak was devastating for the people in the region but in assessing the lessons it is very important to keep in mind that the tragedy could have been much worse.

The disease spreads like wildfire through poultry farms. In Canada there was the potential for a vast outbreak. In fact, the control area had some 600 poultry farms all within a fairly dense region but only 42 commercial farms were implicated and the disease remained confined to the lower Fraser Valley. Our trading partners continued to accept products from other regions of Canada.

Clearly, Canada was doing many things right during this influenza outbreak. This is a tribute to the partnerships among all stakeholders, including federal departments and agencies, provincial and municipal governments, the private sector, the veterinary community and, not least, the people of the lower Fraser Valley.

However not everything went right. There are lessons to be learned so we can be better prepared should Canada face another crisis of this magnitude. Clearly, the CFIA, for its part, has been working hard to improve its emergency response system.

In a document entitled “Lessons Learned Review”, the CFIA outlined 17 major recommendations and some 50 individual action items to improve our emergency response system. Many of these action items improve our emergency response system and some cover familiar ground to the recommendations of the committee's report. The House should keep this in mind when determining how to respond.

The report's first recommendation, for example, calls for a public inquiry into the events of last year. I have not heard a convincing explanation as to what such an inquiry would find that we do not know already. Would such an inquiry call upon the same witnesses who appeared before the committee? Would they have anything different to say?

In my view, the most troubling implication of recommendation one is that it would require the CFIA to redirect resources to respond to the commission's business. These are resources that are better used in moving ahead on the action plan already in place.

The second recommendation calls for the Auditor General to examine the response to last year's crisis in order to provide benchmark information for emergency response effectiveness. The government would welcome this review. However a review would be most useful in 18 to 24 months, at which point action plan items from the lessons learned will have been implemented.

The third recommendation calls for a special animal disease response team. The CFIA has already put in place a similar system through area emergency response teams. As part of the action plan, the CFIA has committed to revising the structure of its emergency response team so that the roles, responsibilities and delegated decision making are more clearly defined. It is reviewing the protocols on when to activate local area and national emergency response teams. The agency is working with stakeholders to develop plans for foreign animal disease emergency support agreements.

Recommendation four would have the government do a cost benefit analysis to study the need for additional containment level three facilities. The government has agreed to proceed with this recommendation. I would like to point out to the House that the CFIA is also taking important steps to accredit laboratory facilities outside the federal laboratory system across the country so that it can use them to assist with surveillance and provide surge capacity in such emergencies. Four labs have already been approved, including the provincial lab in Abbotsford.

Recommendation five involves the methods to euthanize animals. The government has agreed to this recommendation and I would add that during the outbreak the CFIA considered various options to euthanize the birds but the alternatives were ruled out because of the operational requirements. The use of carbon dioxide to depopulate the flocks was consistent with recommendations of the American Veterinary Medical Association panel on euthanasia and l'Office international de l'épizootie, the international organization of animal health. The method was found to be an effective technique and the CFIA refined the process to maximize its effectiveness, particularly with respect to animal health and human health and safety issues. It has been recognized that carbon dioxide does present some challenges with waterfowl but no alternative has been suggested at this time.

Recommendation six involves compensation issues. Approximately $63.5 million has been paid out to British Columbia producers under the health of animals regulations. In addition, the Canadian agricultural income stabilization program may provide support to producers by covering some of their losses.

However the compensation question remains an open issue. All stakeholders, including the industry, must assume some of the risk and various marketplace insurance schemes provide part of the solution. The government agrees with the recommendation to review the existing compensation under the Health of Animals Act.

Finally, recommendation seven involves procedures to permit a pre-emptive cull to limit the potential spread of an outbreak of animal diseases. The government has accepted this recommendation. In fact, in partnership with the industry, the CFIA has already been putting in place a pre-emptive cull policy. An interim protocol is already in effect and a permanent protocol should be in place before the end of the year.

The committee has worked very hard to obtain a broad and detailed perspective of what took place during the avian influenza outbreak last year. In some respects, the thoroughness of the committee's efforts preclude the need for its first recommendation, establishing another commission to study the situation further.

While the committee was working so diligently to hear from the various stakeholders affected by the outbreak, other stakeholders were moving quickly to adapt the lessons learned. Some of the committee's measures that have been put in place in recent months echo the themes of its report.

There are some recommendations here that build upon what is now being done. Unfortunately, however, the report taken as a whole would distract stakeholders such as the CFIA from the important work they are now doing, so at this point I move:

That the motion be amended by deleting all the words after “that” and substituting the following therefore:

“that the Third Report of the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food, presented to the House, be not now concurred in but that it be referred back to the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food for further consideration”.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

12:10 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I thank the hon. member for Thunder Bay--Rainy River for that amendment. I will give it to the clerks and make sure that it is in order. In the meantime, I would like to proceed to questions and comments.

The hon. member for Selkirk--Interlake.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake, MB

Mr. Speaker, I am very opposed to the amendment. I believe that the concurrence motion as it stands today reflects the will of the committee. Our committee is an all party committee. Committee members have already looked at this and made a decision that this is the way we want to proceed. There was unanimous consent. I know that the parliamentary secretary is not happy about it, but he was not there that day and this is what his party at the table decided that day. This is the will of the people who made presentations to the committee. I think that this interference is a grave injustice to the will of the people we heard at committee.

I would like to follow up and ask why the hon. member would want to mess around with the concurrence motion. This is the will of the committee. We have made our decision. We debated it. We went carefully through the report, paragraph by paragraph, and came up with what I thought was a very good report that is non-partisan.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Boshcoff Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

Mr. Speaker, in response let me say that my riding now extends from Lake Superior to the Manitoba border. Over the period of time since the last election, the farming and agricultural communities have taken a great deal of time to educate me in terms of these issues. Poultry does not happen to be a large component of the agricultural industry, but certainly the nature of the experiences people have shared with me tell me that once there has been an examination of a subject three times by very expert people, internationally, locally and nationally, that would tell us that we do have some answers. The farmers of my riding would say that once we have enough answers, it is time for action.

I believe that what I have seen here and in discussing this report tells me that it would be much better for the agricultural community to accelerate an action plan rather than go back and re-gaze, rehash and study again something that has been very thoroughly reviewed. Offering the wisdom of the House to a committee's report with this amendment is what I am representing here.

There is an expression from a movie by a group that I am sure all members of the House would characterize as a group of international renown, the Monty Python group. When a person presented a shrubbery to one of the characters, the character said each time, “You shall bring me...another shrubbery!” In this case we already have three studies and three sets of recommendations, so we really do not need another shrubbery.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Mr. Speaker, as the vice-chair of the agricultural committee who was actually at the hearings in Abbotsford, helped write the report, heard the recommendations and has read the other reports as well, I say that the member opposite makes his own case. He said it is time to move on and get going with things. That is why we are asking for concurrence. That is why we are not tabling it with the minister to give him 120-plus days to respond. We want this acted on now.

He is on the same page as I am. With the argument he just made, I would ask him to withdraw his amendment because it will slow this down and actually mire it in the politics of the situation instead of letting it see the light of day that these people asked for.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Boshcoff Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

Mr. Speaker, I would respectfully acknowledge that six of the seven items are action items, and one is to go back to study again something that has been thoroughly studied, which can only delay what I would see as action and responsiveness.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The member says six of them are action items and one calls for more study. The one that calls for more study actually calls for studying the compensatory value, which is a whole new direction.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

12:15 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I do not think that is a point of order. That is a point of debate. We are now going to hear from the member for Malpeque.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

12:15 p.m.

Malpeque P.E.I.

Liberal

Wayne Easter LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food (Rural Development)

Mr. Speaker, I certainly agree fully with the member's amendment because what it really deals with is action versus study and being responsible versus being irresponsible in going to a study that has already been studied three times.

Clearly there is justification for going with the member's amendment. I believe I outlined in my remarks 10 points where CFIA has already been moving forward with a number of recommendations from the three studies that have been done.

In his remarks, the member for Thunder Bay--Rainy River went through each of the good recommendations made by the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food and he outlined in each of those recommendations where the CFIA, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, or the Government of Canada is moving ahead on actions on those various points. That is taking action.

What the amendment is really doing, if people over yonder would listen to it instead of playing politics as they tend to do, is referring it back to the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food to rethink this, to maybe just look at the action that is taking place; it is not preempting if it becomes necessary to call for another study down the road. But let us call in the CFIA, see what it is doing and make sure that it is acting on what it said it would act upon. That makes better sense.

I certainly agree with the member and his remarks. I wonder if he would agree that this is a good strategy: to take some time and see that we are taking action and not waste human and financial resources by doing another study.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Boshcoff Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

Mr. Speaker, respectfully, when we have three sets of answers, we have to question what kind of productive result there would be from going back and doing it one more time.

If the committee really wants to move rapidly, I believe that in this type of situation we can actually do much more by going to the action items. We would have the desired results even faster. That would be my response. We have it three times and to get it a fourth time would perhaps reinforce what has been done already, but to me that would be a diversion and a dilution of the energy available.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is saying we need to move faster. Today's motion is to enable that: to make it go faster. Instead of going back to committee for more review and having it go to the minister to sit on his desk for 120 days, we are trying to get action now.

It has been two years since this has been in review and study, two years in which the CFIA has had an opportunity to get its act together. If its act had been together beforehand, we would not have been in the mess and we would not be debating this today.

After two years, even without these studies, the hon. member has just said that the CFIA is reviewing protocols, that it is “working toward developing a plan”. That is progress at the rate of a worm. That does not get things done, this “working toward developing a plan”, not even developing the plan. What kind of action are they talking about? I certainly hope it is something other than action at a worm's pace for a change.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Boshcoff Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

Mr. Speaker, as members of the committee, they know that certainly it is within the committee's power to call those people and ask for a status report to see what the pace of that is. I would recommend that to them and to just keep moving rather than reinventing the wheel and starting from scratch again; I say to go faster. That to me would be true progress and progressive thinking.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

12:20 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, this is unbelievable, really unbelievable. We have moved forward a concurrence motion on a report that comes from the agriculture committee and which very clearly talks about the need for action.

Members in three corners of the House have moved this concurrence motion forward because of the importance of the issue and the importance of action, but what we are seeing again, in an appallingly abusive way, is the Liberal government trying to shut down action on an issue that cost British Columbia, to take the farm gate receipts and the secondary economic impact, nearly $400 million, nearly half a billion dollars.

The agriculture committee held hearings in Abbotsford and came forward with a series of key recommendations, including the first recommendation, which resulted from an NDP amendment:

That an independent commission of inquiry be struck with the mandate to investigate the serious 2004 avian influenza outbreak in British Columbia.

Now the government is trying to shut this down, send the report back and delay things further on an issue that the agriculture committee has already flagged as a fundamental issue. This is absolutely unbelievable.

I suppose it is not surprising given all the other events of the last few weeks, the game playing around the budget implementation bill, and the appalling abuse of power that we saw on Monday night when the government House leader shut down opposition days, I guess because Liberals felt that the opposition was too effective a job in holding the government accountable for its actions and lack of actions in so many areas.

Now we see the government once again trying to shut down any sort of action or decisive impact to resolve issues that have an enormous impact on Canadians. It is absolutely unbelievable to me.

I should mention to what a great extent this shows disrespect for British Columbians. Because of the intervention of the member of Parliament for Abbotsford, we were fortunate to actually have two days of hearings on January 18 and 19 in Abbotsford on this important issue. What came back repeatedly from individuals in Abbotsford during those two days of public hearings was the importance of having a full public inquiry because the issue was not well handled. There were huge errors, which I will get into in a moment. Very clearly, there has been no proper investigation of what happened in that outbreak.

It is important to note that the CFIA report, which the government seems to feel is the final word on this issue, was done up even before the public hearings in Abbotsford, if members can believe that. The CFIA refused to take any public input whatsoever except from a very select group of people that it had hand-picked and who would not criticize the CFIA to any great extent. The CFIA produced its report and put it out to committee members and members of Parliament across the country on the day before the public hearings the agriculture committee was holding in Abbotsford.

In good faith, British Columbians came forward to give their best judgment of what happened, the mistakes that were made, the issues that were not dealt with and the problems with communication, all those issues that are fundamental in nature. As British Columbians came to give their testimony to the agriculture committee, the CFIA had already wrapped up its report and sent it out. It has not altered it since. There were no lessons learned from the public. There were no lessons learned from local experts. CFIA drew from its hand-picked list a series of recommendations that made it look not too bad and then put that out prior to the two days of public hearings.

Here is what we see now. Very clearly the agriculture committee has heard the comments of British Columbians in the Fraser Valley, the people who lived through this, the people who suffered through the mistakes that were made by the government and suffered through the lack of communication. The fact is that it took days for decisions to be made and they had to communicate with Ottawa to do anything. Those people came forward in good faith and said, “We need a public inquiry to really get to the root of these problems and to deal with it in such a way that this never happens again”.

We have seen what respect and what contempt the government has for British Columbians of good faith who came forward at those agriculture hearings and called for a public inquiry. Complete and utter contempt for British Columbians from every part of British Columbia. That is what we see from the government by this move right now.

It should not be surprising to us. We have already seen it with Air-India. We have seen it repeatedly when Parliament called for action on the dirty money scam, the ad scam, and paying back the money that was taken. The government has refused to implement the will of Parliament. We have seen it time and time and again. As a result of that, we are seeing Parliament's actions being thwarted by a government that does not understand the meaning of the word “democracy”.

We have an agriculture committee report. Members of Parliament moved this forward for concurrence, so we can get to the bottom of it, launch the public inquiry, find out what went wrong, prepare if, God forbid, there is another outbreak, and learn from the mistakes of the past. The government is trying to shut it down again. It is absolutely appalling. Words fail me. The level of contempt that the government has for Parliament, for Canadians, and in this case specifically for British Columbians, is beyond belief.

Let us talk a bit about the hearings. We know that the impact of the avian flu outbreak was huge. I am talking about lost farm gate receipts, the secondary economic impact of $400 million, and hundreds and hundreds of lost jobs. The region still has not fully recovered from that outbreak.

We had local experts and individuals who came and testified at the agriculture committee hearings in Abbotsford. They were able to give us some of the fundamental information that CFIA did not want to collect, or did not deign to collect. The information that CFIA did not want to hear was critical of decisions that were made.

However, this is the only way to learn from this outbreak. It had an enormous impact on the lower mainland of the Fraser Valley in British Columbia. As a British Columbia MP I feel, as my colleagues do in three corners of the House, that we must deal with it, correct the mistakes that were made, and move on in as rapid, thorough and effective way as possible. We see the government trying to one more time block any progress on this. If there is another outbreak in a few months or a year, we will not have the measures in place because there has never been a thorough examination that needs to take place.

Let us talk about what happened. I am going to cite the producers' account of the euthanasia and depopulation procedures at the first and second farms diagnosed with avian influenza in British Columbia in 2004. Four people, distinguished individuals, including the only two avian veterinarians in British Columbia, co-wrote this report. I am talking about Dr. Stewart Ritchie and Dr. Victoria Bowes. They went into detail about what happened around the time of the first and second outbreak.

I am going to quote a few passages for the record from this important report and I should mention this is a report that CFIA has never read because its officials did not want to. The CFIA had hand-picked experts produce a report and threw it out before the public hearings in British Columbia to the immense disrespect of British Columbians. Since then the report has not been changed at all. In fact, the experts that were consulted were all outside British Columbia and were all outside Canada. The report was sent to Europe and Hong Kong. The CFIA did not want to actually have anyone who knew anything about the crisis outbreak and the mistakes that were made actually reading the analysis.

The experts note:

On February 7, 2004, the owner of a modern broiler breeder farm in Abbotsford, British Columbia, Canada noticed that his 51 week old flock of 9,000 broiler breeder chickens (Flock A) took double the normal time to consume the allotted amount of feed, as well as noted there was a slight increase in mortality.

On the first day of increased mortality samples of dead birds from Flock B were submitted for further investigation to the BCMAFF-AHC...On February 18, 2004 the CFIA declared that the Federal Government was in control of this outbreak, the farm was placed under quarantine and provisions were made for the pre-emptive euthanasia and depopulation ofthe two flocks.

Let us talk a bit about the euthanasia procedures that were taking place on February 9, 2004. Approximately 3,500 kilograms of chicken carcasses were ground up, after they were euthanized, together with 1,000 kilograms of barn litter per load. Each of those 15 mixed loads were transported approximately 400 metres along a public road, that also went over a small stream, to the owner's residential driveway where the contents of the portable mixer were dumped directly onto the paved driveway. This material was then pushed with a tractor front-end loader into an open dairy feed bunker for the purpose of composting.

The owner of the first farm affected and the attending CFIA veterinarian both commented at the time that this was taking place in the open, and that there were strong winds originating from the north. The filling of the bunker proceeded throughout the night and at 5 a.m. on February 22, the bunker was only able to contain the equivalent of 10,000 birds and it reached full capacity at 60% of what was needed to be disposed of. Since local disposal options were limited, the remaining infectious material was placed in plastic lined cardboard totes using the front-end loader. They were then transported to an incineration site in Princeton, B.C., which is over the mountains through the Manning Park area.

On February 23, 2004, the day after depopulation was completed, the CFIA lifted the quarantine at this farm despite the presence of a large quantity of composting, infected carcasses. In the CFIA report, we do not hear mention of this because the CFIA report had already come out prior to this information actually being released.

We had composting, infected carcasses. The quarantine was lifted. Surprise, surprise. On March 6, 2004, a full 14 days following the depopulation activity on the index farm, a second broiler breeder farm located 1.5 kilometres southwest of the original farm was diagnosed with the avian influenza. Which way were the winds blowing? They were from the north and from the original farm.

It was not a surprise at all. The quarantine had been shut down. They were composting carcasses all around with this highly infectious avian flu virus and what happened? To the surprise of nobody, particularly the experts who were in the field, 14 days later we had a second outbreak.

The depopulation of this farm did not happen until March 13, 2004 because CFIA required that all diagnostic tests be confirmed at the national foreign animal disease laboratory in Winnipeg. During the interim seven days, while waiting for official confirmation, the mortality in the affected barns on the second farm reached over 95%.

We went through a second euthanasia procedure. Dr. Victoria Bowes and Dr. Stewart Ritchie, the two avian veterinarians and experts were not consulted or involved in any way with CFIA's whitewash of the activities that took place in the Fraser Valley of British Columbia, but they state that the reasons are unclear why carbon dioxide gas was not chosen as the method of euthanasia. Instead, a mobile electric stunning machine developed for the euthanasia of spent commercial egg-laying hens was employed.

Birds were fed through an electrically charged chute for the killing process and the carcasses were then openly conveyed along a belt to be dropped into the top of reefer trucks. This procedure, which is no surprise to any of us, and which took place over three days, resulted in the dispensing of large quantities of infectious dust and feathers high into the air, as feathers and dust were noted to have travelled a significant distance and to have covered vehicles that were parked nearby.

In the case of the second farm, as in the case of the first farm, the producer questioned the wisdom of this method of disposal during strong winds. Anyone would understand that this method of disposal in strong winds was inappropriate, but the process continued until completion. We would not see that either in the CFIA whitewash. That is why we need a public inquiry.

I hope that members of the government who are present here today are ashamed, having learned some of the details rather than referring to their talking points. I hope they understand how crucial this issue is to British Columbians and how crucial this is for the agricultural sector all across the country.

On the second farm and seven days later, a third cluster of commercial poultry farms located downwind, within two kilometres of the first two farms, were diagnosed with avian flu. This came as no surprise to anybody in the House and no one who was at the agricultural committee hearings in Abbotsford on March 22, 2004.

On April 1, 2004 it was diagnosed outside of the original high risk zone, which was defined as a five kilometre radius zone around the flock where avian flu was first diagnosed. Over the next eight weeks a total of 42 commercial poultry farms in the Abbotsford area were identified as being positive.

This information is not in the CFIA whitewash. This information has not gone to the government. For the government to obstruct the work of the agriculture committee and to block what British Columbians of good faith have brought forward for us to take action on is absolutely despicable. There is no excuse for this action.

As information comes out from three corners of the House, I hope members of the government will understand how despicable these actions were. This series of convoluted amendments are trying to whitewash the report or drown the report. The government is trying to cover up a series of mistakes that were made in the first quarantine zone and in the second quarantine zone, and led to an outbreak that cost almost $500 million to British Columbians and hundreds of jobs. For the government to whitewash this affair is absolutely appalling and inappropriate.

We have the evidence. We had two days of hearings, January 18 and January 19, 2005, which clearly indicated the absolute need for a public hearing. Many witnesses came forward who indicated that we needed to learn from this crisis without any doubt. This almost became a catastrophe. We need to have a full public inquiry. We need to consult with the experts who have been left aside by the whitewashing of CFIA. We need to get to the bottom of this.

We are not talking about something of little importance. We are talking about something that has had a profound effect on the agriculture community in the Fraser Valley in British Columbia. We are talking about an issue that has the potential to decimate other parts of the country as well. A clear majority on the agriculture committee indicated a public inquiry was vitally important in order to fully get to the bottom of every aspect of the crisis last year and to prevent the reoccurrence of outbreaks.

One of the things that we called for, and the first recommendation that the agriculture committee called for, in order to prevent the reoccurrence of any outbreaks was for the commission to review the effectiveness of the emergency preparedness and implementation strategies that were deployed in British Columbia regarding zoonotic diseases.

No one in the House doubts that this is a priority. No one in the House doubts that the government needs to take action. Members of the opposition have brought forward this motion for concurrence and it would be a shameful moment indeed if members of the government tried to block the will of British Columbians and the will of our agricultural sector.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

12:40 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Before moving to questions and comments I would like to indicate that the amendment to the motion proposed earlier is in order.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

12:40 p.m.

Malpeque P.E.I.

Liberal

Wayne Easter LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food (Rural Development)

Mr. Speaker, I hate to smile over such a serious issue but what a great little rant we had at the beginning. What is unbelievable is the member of the NDP.

I am pleased that we now know where the amendment really came from. I was actually surprised to think that it might have come from the Conservatives, but the amendment came from the NDP because it is not beyond that party to want to do a little more study instead of taking action.

Recommendation one would do exactly that: not bother with action, just waste financial and human resources and do another study or have a public inquiry. Maybe we could spend more money in a public inquiry than the $63 million that we spent compensating producers. The producers in B.C. are asking us to look at the Health of Animals Act to try to increase the compensation but the member wants to waste a little more money when three studies have already been done and one by the parliamentary committee itself.

Does the member think it will do any good? He quoted some of the stuff that happened. That is already known. It is in the report. However his attitude is that we should go out and hear it all again.

I outlined 10 points of action that the CFIA has taken to address the very concerns that the member is talking about. One of the members on this side of the House, the hon. member for Thunder Bay—Rainy River, has outlined the steps that CFIA and the government have taken in terms of already moving ahead with action on those recommendations from the committee.

Would action rather than more study and the waste of human and financial resources not make more sense than what he is proposing to do?