Debates of April 5th, 2005

Committees of the House

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I share many of the concerns expressed by the hon. member across the floor, particularly when it comes to the perceived conflict of interest and the perceived patronage in this appointment. I think it reflects poorly on all parliamentarians when the Canadian public believes, as I think it does in this case, that appointments are made, not through merit but through patronage and political affiliation. We need to get beyond that.

During the last election campaign the Prime Minister stated on many occasions that he would get beyond that. However it appears that he has not. The perception of impartiality and the perception of patronage are things with which most Canadians cannot abide.

Something else that concerns me greatly, which the member for Skeena--Bulkley Valley pointed out in his presentation, has to do with Mr. Murray's apparent lack qualifications.

Many of us here in the House have gone through job interviews ourselves. One thing I always did when I was up for a position in years past was to ensure I did my homework. Before I went to an interview I made sure I found out everything about the company I was applying to. I even went so far as to do some role playing with friends or other colleagues in respective industries or organizations to try to anticipate the type of questions that might be asked at the interview. I would certainly go through the job description of the position itself so I would be intimately aware and knowledgeable of all of the attributes that the successful applicant would require for the position.

What distresses me about this whole situation is that it appears that Mr. Murray did not even do the minimum required to learn about the job or the qualifications needed for the job itself. The member who just spoke and other colleagues have stated that Mr. Murray went to the interview without the basic knowledge of what the chair's role would be.

I have a couple of questions for the member who sits on the environment committee. Does he not think that other members of the round table must have confidence in the abilities of the chair to act in an effective manner? If they do not have confidence in an appointee who is to become their chair, does that not undermine the ability of the round table itself to do some effective work?

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, as a country, we commit a great deal of resources and credibility to this body, some millions of dollars, and it is entrusted with the sound and important duty of advising the Prime Minister on no less an important issue than the environment.

When Mr. Murray came in front of committee with the perspective that he would be working hand in hand with the environment committee, which was not what his job was meant to be, he was unwilling and unable to answer the question on his willingness to criticize the government, which also was not part of the job. He also had a general lack of knowledge on specific environmental issues that exist at the present time. The questions were not micro in nature but macro. They dealt with certain environmental initiatives that are at the core of the environmental debate right now.

There is a thing in business called the social licence to operate. When a business no longer has that, it no longer has the credibility to operate and function within any given community. I would suggest that Mr. Murray lost a great deal of credibility in the eyes of the other members of the national round table by his lack of knowledge of the position and lack of knowledge about the issues which would greatly lessen the effectiveness of the round table.

As chair he holds the prominent position of setting the agenda, monitoring the discussion and helping to produce reports that would advise the Prime Minister. His lack of knowledge diminishes the entire capacity of the round table, to which, as I said, we contribute a significant amount of funds every given year.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Mr. Speaker, earlier this morning I had a chance to ask the member for Red Deer a question about the government's motivation behind the appointment and I would like to follow up on that.

I talked earlier about how the government has a history of manipulation in so many areas. Apart from Senate reform, patronage appointments and its latest involvement in the Gomery inquiry, it has manipulated the environment file in many ways. After eight years of discussions, it still does not have a plan on the Kyoto file. We talked about carbon sequestration and how it has basically manipulated that away from the farmers and agricultural areas. We hope we can get that back so people in rural areas can actually benefit from Kyoto in some way.

The government has also manipulated the budget. I had a chance to be at the environment committee meeting just before the break.The member for Skeena—Bulkley Valley was very vocal about his concern that the government was trying to manipulate the environmental file by using the budget.

I also have a concern that the qualifications of this gentleman do not seem to be adequate at all. We have been told that he has no academic or professional experience in this area. His predecessor, who was an ADM in the Quebec government, had been involved with environmental issues for 35 years and was a member of the round table before he was appointed as chair.

There are also some questions about Mr. Murray's decision making and judgment abilities. The government was told that patronage appointments should not be attending conventions and that kind of thing but Mr. Murray had the poor judgment to show up at the Liberal convention in the spring of 2005. He also made a number of policy blunders as mayor.

I am interested to know if the member feels that the government is using the weakness of the candidate to further manipulate the environment file, which it has been so successful at manipulating in the past.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is actually very difficult to understand the motivations of the government in appointing someone who is so clearly, from an objective view, a patronage appointment, thereby creating, particularly when it comes to Kyoto, greater uncertainty as to how this will roll out.

The government seems to lack the ability to present a Kyoto plan in any kind of a timely fashion. I have referred to Kyoto as a Liberal attempt to save for retirement at about age 64. It will become extremely expensive because there has been no significant planning, thereby creating uncertainty and increasing over and over again the cost to industry.

By manipulating this important file, as we move ahead with something as important as Kyoto, climate change and pollution in general, and putting it into what is now under the light of a patronage appointment, diminishing its credibility greatly, has increased the uncertainty around the effectiveness and around how it is we are meant to meet something as important as the commitments the government made under Kyoto.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Athabasca, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my friend and colleague from the NDP, the member for Skeena—Bulkley Valley, for dealing with some of the other issues that, fortunately, I will not have to do now, specifically the Prime Minister's continual promises to stop filling patronage appointments and breaking his word on cronyism.

While doing research in Winnipeg's local newspapers I was surprised to read their reaction to Mr. Murray's leaving. As the member for Red Deer said, they were happy about it. I considered that to be my first eyebrow lifter in this process of reviewing the appointment of Mr. Murray.

I was fortunate enough to be on the environment committee that was asked to review this appointment. I thought it would be most effective to find out what the job really was and what the duty of the appointee would be.

I discovered that this particular person controls the agenda for Canada's environment strategy. This is a very important role for this person. Not only is Mr. Murray responsible for that, he is also responsible for engaging the United States, our largest trading partner, a country that is not a signatory to Kyoto, a country that will be so important to our future, in all issues of climate change, which is fearful to me. He will be integrating climate change objectives into Canada's foreign policy.

We have a large country and our population is dispersed with approximately 1.1 person every square mile. Compared to Europe, we have to travel a lot further. We have natural resources and our economy is built on natural resources. It is fearful that someone with, in essence, so much power and influence over our government and our policy, would come to the table with absolutely no credible experience or knowledge on the environment. This is the person that will be Canada's point man for the environment and our role in the environment internationally.

This is a very important role for someone to play and we should find the best person for the job based on, in my belief, his or her education and experience.

It was another eyebrow lifter when Mr. Murray came to the committee and gave answers to our questions. I, along with 10 other members of Parliament, who represent more than a million Canadians, had the opportunity to question him. I found him to be a very personable and likeable person. I understood why he had been elected mayor of Winnipeg. However, there is a first chance for an elected official and I would suggest that we needed to look at what Mr. Murray accomplished during his time as mayor of Winnipeg. However that again was an eyebrow lifter and a surprise for me.

As my colleague said, when we have a job interview we have to find the best person for the job. What concerned me the most about Mr. Murray was his basic lack of understanding on anything concerning the environment. He did not understand basic concepts. I will go through that a little further on in my presentation today. It was grossly obvious to all the members how little he understood the basic concepts of the environment.

I did find, however, two advantages. Mr. Murray does have political experience and knows politics. He also has some influence in the government here in Ottawa. He has influence in the Prime Minister's office. Do we want someone in this position who has a direct connection to the Prime Minister, who has political experience and who knows how to skate around issues? I do not think so. I think that when something is as important as Kyoto, something as important as the environment is to our country and the future of the world, we need someone who is non-partisan and who will be able to direct the agenda of the round table effectively and without partisanship.

These are not advantages that we want if this position is going to be successful. The chairperson must be impartial, non-partisan and knowledgeable about the issues on at least a basic level. In my mind, this person must have a passion for what is best for Canada. Based upon the answers that he gave to the questions in committee, I do not believe that Mr. Murray is that person.

Being that I dealt with the advantages, I want to deal with some disadvantages. I have found many disadvantages if Mr. Murray were to be appointed to the round table. Specifically, there are eight that I would like to deal with today.

The first disadvantage I see in Mr. Murray taking this role is that it is a political appointment. As I said earlier and as has been referred to by some of my colleagues, there were actually two members of the Liberal Party, as my friend from Cypress Hills said earlier, the parliamentary secretary and the former executive director of the national round table, the member for Richmond Hill and the member for Ottawa South, who actually supported the motion to have his appointment sent to the House.

These are people who are knowledgeable and have environmental experience and who have sat on boards and are involved in the government's operations. They actually referred his appointment. They voted in favour of referring his appointment to the House. Again, that is an eyebrow lifter. That is three. One is enough to cause suspicion and make people re-evaluate the condition of Mr. Murray's appointment, but I would suggest that three takes it to a point that is simply not acceptable.

I think that these weaknesses and eyebrow lifters must immediately suggest to the Prime Minister that Mr. Murray's appointment should be rescinded and the vote of the House, today, tomorrow or when it is taken, should be respected and followed.

The second disadvantage is that Mr. Murray as mayor of Winnipeg does have a track record. In reviewing the newspaper clippings from Winnipeg and reviewing what is so accessible on the Internet today, I discovered that this gentleman was at the helm, at the controls of the ship, during one of the worst natural disasters ever to hit Lake Winnipeg. Raw sewage leaked into Lake Winnipeg, which is the 11th largest source of fresh water in the world. This is of critical importance to the world and Canada. He was at the helm when this happened.

My understanding from reading the newspaper columns and doing more research is that not only was he responsible for it, but he was negligent, in my opinion, because it was something that could have been avoided. My understanding is that the previous Liberal government made a direct offer to Mr. Murray to provide moneys to the city to fix the problem and repair and upgrade the sewer system. That disaster could have been avoided. That is what I find the most distressing about his track record.

The third disadvantage is that he is a politician and certainly would have political enemies and political friends. That is the part that worries me most. As a member of Parliament I want to discourage any cronyism or partisanship. I would submit that what we need to do for environmental concerns, especially with what is happening in the world today, is find the best people for the job and put them in there no matter what the situation. We have to take politics and partisanship out of it.

How do we know that he is going to be able to provide the proper advice to the Prime Minister? How do we know that he is going to be impartial? I would suggest that we cannot know this, especially because it appears, from asking questions and reviewing his appointment, that the only qualification he has for this job is the fact that he is a member of the Liberals and a friend to the Prime Minister.

The fourth disadvantage I see is that this is a patronage appointment. As I mentioned earlier, this appointment has not been earned through qualifications. Mr. Murray does not have the qualifications so far as education goes or as far as work history is concerned. In my opinion, he is therefore going to be subject at all times to patronage payback. How does this help the environment? It cannot. It will not.

The fifth disadvantage, as stated by some of my colleagues, is that he has no knowledge of the environment. He has no knowledge of the Kyoto targets. When asked about it by a newspaper, he recites some basic understanding of targets, but really, the closer we get to the environment and the environment file we realize that this means nothing. It is just a newspaper quote.

He also has no knowledge of climate change. In fact, what made me think about this at the very beginning was the first question to him, when it was said that he never even put a platform about his stance on the environment in his campaign brochures. That was one of the first things I wrote as a new member of Parliament during my campaign. I made sure that I had a clear and concise message on the environment and how important it is today. I would suggest that it is one of the most important issues the federal government deals with. He had no reference to it in his campaign brochures.

The sixth disadvantage, and this surprised me somewhat, is that Mr. Murray does not even have confidence in his own abilities and has admitted that he has no expertise in the environment. We need a person in this appointment who will be able to take the lead on issues of the environment, who will be able to control the agenda of and set the priorities for the round table, as we heard from the member for Skeena--Bulkley Valley. He needs to understand the basic science in order to be able to set the agenda, put forward motions and control how the round table and the committee hit the agenda.

He needs to understand the basic concepts in regard to what is happening in the global environment. Most important, as I stated earlier, he has to have a clear vision, a vision for what is best for Canada's future and the world's future, and for how we as Canadians can participate in that most effectively to give back to our great country and our great world on the environment and protect it for our children and grandchildren.

In my opinion, the very fact that he has no basic understanding and did not do the research for the job interview shows that he has an absolute lack of interest in this position. Almost any high school student would understand some basic terms. The member for Red Deer asked some questions of Mr. Murray on the cap and trade system, the gasification of garbage, sulphur dioxide and nitrous oxide. Mr. Murray had a look of absolute disinterest in and a lack of understanding of all of these topics. Many high school students today would be able to give at least some definition or some answer in reference to these questions from the member for Red Deer.

This just happened. It was on March 7 that we asked these questions and these terms were put to him. He tried to skirt around the questions. I read again the transcript of that particular interview with Mr. Murray in the committee meeting and was again flabbergasted at how he tried to skate around each of the questions put to him by the member for Red Deer.

With respect, I have no bad opinion of Mr. Murray except for his taking this job when he is so clearly not competent or qualified to do so. With respect, this job is very important for Canada. As the member for Red Deer has said, recent studies indicate that Canadians may pay 100% more for electricity as a result of Kyoto. Canadians may spend 60% more for natural gas and 80% more for gasoline if the Kyoto accord is fully implemented. Even economists say that Kyoto could lead to a recession in Canada.

Is this the kind of person we want on the round table, somebody with no knowledge of the environment and with no experience and credibility on the environment or, in my opinion, with other members of the round table? I suggest not. We need someone who is going to take Kyoto very seriously and who has some semblance of experience.

Mr. Murray does not have any business experience. He does not have any negotiating experience, which obviously the chair of the round table needs to have with the U.S. being our biggest trading partner right below the border. We are going to need somebody who is going to be tough and knowledgeable, who is able to put across our position and negotiate properly to get the best deal possible for Canadians and at the same time keep the primary focus of the environment in hand.

That is the seventh disadvantage: he did not have any small business experience and no large corporate experience as far as heading any large corporations goes. He has no negotiating experience. He has no international trade experience. What could be more necessary for a head of a round table such as this who is going to be our point man on the environment? After the Liberals signing it, we are bound as Canadians to this international treaty. It is a reality and we have to be effective to get the job done. I would suggest that on this basis he is not the right person to be our candidate.

I see an eighth disadvantage for Canadians. If Mr. Murray is appointed the Prime Minister is sending a clear message to Canadians that democracy does not matter, that this country is not founded on democracy and that he is not obligated to listen to either the committee, which he has already ignored, or this House.

We will see how the House votes in the next few days, but I see this as the major disadvantage. The voices of my constituents, the 100,000 people I represent, do not matter. The voices of the million people represented by the other 10 MPs on that committee do not matter. The other 30 million plus Canadians represented by members of Parliament voting on this particular issue do not matter.

Will the Prime Minister listen? We will see how his promises of democracy change.

This is an important job. Even the director of the Sierra Club has indicated that in the next five years Canadian taxpayers are going to be spending $3 billion to $5 billion buying clean air credits abroad. This means we will be paying other countries that are not signatories of the Kyoto protocol to put off smog in their countries to create an economy and employ people in their countries. We are paying for that.

I suggest that since we are bound to do this and have no choice at this stage we need to find the best person as the head of the round table to negotiate the best treaties for us. This person has to understand the basic concept of the environment. We need a person with business experience, negotiating experience and environmental expertise to some degree; even a basic understanding would certainly be helpful to start. We need a person with management experience and a passion for Canada's environment and our economic future.

The practice of cronyism must stop. We need to put aside politics, especially for a job such as this, which is so absolutely important to Canada's future. We must have the best person for the job. That person is not Mr. Murray.

I implore all members of this House when this vote comes up to send a clear message to the Prime Minister that we need to put aside politics. We need to put aside partisanship and get the best person for the most important job. That is not Mr. Murray.

[Dale Johnston, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I have a few comments and a question for my colleague. Much has been said today about the qualifications of Mr. Murray as the chair of this round table. I think that along with that we have to ask ourselves what would any one of us do if we were offered a job by the Prime Minister. I think that puts the onus on the Prime Minister.

We have to remember that the Prime Minister said during the election campaign that he would empower committees to review all appointments, and certainly that has happened. Even though the committee reviewed the appointment and made recommendations to the Prime Minister, the Prime Minister ignored the recommendations.

The Prime Minister flew in the face of the recommendations from the committee and made the appointment anyway, so perhaps not all the blame should go to Mr. Murray. I think being offered a position by the Prime Minister certainly is a great honour and a privilege, so what would he do other than accept? If asked, I certainly do not think he would turn down the Prime Minister.

All of this reminds me of the last election campaign just a year ago, when the Prime Minister said that he would do something about the democratic deficit, to use his old expression. The Prime Minister recognized that there was a democratic deficit and he was going to do something about it.

We all remember the Prime Minister saying on television so definitively that it is no longer going to be “who you know in the PMO”. I wonder if my colleague would comment on those thoughts.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Athabasca, AB]

Mr. Speaker, what is most important in a job interview, as was stated by a colleague earlier, is to be aware about the interview and about the people who will ask the questions. It was blatantly obvious to myself and other members of the committee on both sides of the House how much Mr. Murray was not aware of his job or the environment.

I liken it to my own adventure into politics. If I can be blunt, when I made the decision to get into the politics, the first thing I did was I went on the Internet and I took a look at the policies of the five major parties. I went through those policies to find out what is going on with each party. I wanted to understand how government was run and the priorities of each party. It was obvious to me that the Conservative Party had the best priorities, and that is why I am here today.

However, within a week or two weeks of accepting to run for this job, I knew what was going on with all other parties. I knew about the job. I knew what I was going to do.

Mr. Murray went the night before to the Liberal convention as a voting delegate. It is obvious to me, and anyone else I think, that this was a natural conflict if he was going to be appointed to something that would be non-partisan. However, he did not even understand any of the basic concepts, such as cap in trade. If one read the newspaper over the last year, one would have a basic understanding of the environment. It just showed me that he had no interest in this whatsoever.

He is interested in the job so far as what it will get him. He is not interested in the job so far as what he can do for Canada. That is the wrong motive. I suggest it sends a strong message to Canadians about our future. Our future is negligible unless we take it seriously, and we must take Kyoto most seriously.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I should preface my remarks by saying that I know Glen Murray. I worked on two of Glen Murray's election campaigns and he worked on my election campaign, He knocked on doors on my behalf in my riding of Winnipeg Centre. Therefore, I know a lot about him.

Much has been made of his relative merits or lack of knowledge of environmental issues. However, what I am more concerned about is his lack of commitment in seeing things through. When he was elected as mayor of Winnipeg the last time, people asked him directly if he intended to work through his full term of office or would he run out on them and run for member of Parliament for the Liberal Party. He said that his commitment was to the people of Winnipeg. If they gave him their trust, he assured them that he would work through his entire term.

He was asked the same question at the environment committee when being grilled about this job. In response to the question about breaking his word to the people of Winnipeg, he said that he had changed his mind, which was different from breaking his word. He said that was not the same thing. I do not see the difference.

Is my colleague concerned that if the Prime Minister appoints Mr. Murray, in spite of the wishes of Parliament, that he will bail as soon as the writ is dropped for the next federal election and run for the Liberals in Rosedale or some place?

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Athabasca, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it came as no surprise to see that he had no answer for that question in committee. It was put to him directly by the member from Winnipeg as to why he broke his word to Winnipeggers and why he did not agree to stay on. He had promised that he would stay on as mayor and that he would not go anywhere else. The question came as no surprise to him. Quite frankly, I remember specifically that he smiled at every question and ignored them.

When one gives one's word, no matter whether it be a political word or another word, it should be kept. If he made a commitment to the people of Winnipeg, he should have kept that word. The very fact that he was ousted by the electorate clearly indicated what the voters thought of him in Winnipeg as a result of him breaking his word.

Can we trust a person who is prepared to do that to his home town of which he was mayor and had such a large influence politically? Would we be able to trust him to stay at the national round table as chair after we spent all the time on his experience and education, which obviously will be great. In doing my research I can see that Mr. Murray has no environmental knowledge.

Can he be trusted? I would suggest he cannot. He will be unable to stay on it. He will, at the first opportunity, drop the chairmanship of the round table and zip to whatever next appointment the Prime Minister is prepared to give him.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Mr. Speaker, the member gave an excellent speech. He talked about a number of reasons why appointing Mr. Murray would be a real disadvantage. He talked about the fact that he had little confidence, little understanding of the issue and little vision.

I want to point out that on the environment the Liberals really have had no vision or have had a vision that has been very difficult to follow. They have misled Canadians regularly. In terms of Kyoto, they have not been clear with either the public or even with their own supporters.

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is addressed in Kyoto but it does not deal with the other pollutants in the country. Liberals have not been clear on that. They have not told Canadians that if we implement Kyoto, it will not deal with many of our pollution problems. They have not told Canadians the costs for Kyoto. Now we find out that gas could go to as high as to $3 a litre. If it gets that high, I do not know what will be left of the rural areas in western Canada in particular. Also, they have not talked clearly to Canadians about the fact that Kyoto will end up being a foreign aid program.

In light of the fact that the Liberals do not have a clear vision for environment, is it not even more important that they find someone with a strong background on environmental issues and a strong understanding of the issues, not someone who is a political patronage appointment?

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Athabasca, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I would liken the question from my friend from Cypress Hills to the Liberal position on Kyoto and the lack of a clear vision or of any vision. The signatory to Kyoto should have had some laser surgery or something of that kind before signing it and committing Canada to an international treaty that will cost taxpayers billions of dollars and that will be ineffective in reducing pollutants and smog or that will be effective in any way.

Mr. Murray's appointment at this round table is very much like the Prime Minister signing the Kyoto accord. He did not understand the science or what we really needed to do. He set the agenda and the focus on the wrong items. It is very critical for the person in the chair to have some expertise so we can be dragged out of this black hole of tax dollars and move us forward on a proper track with proper vision so we can see a point in the future of where we go and how we get there.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to address the Prime Minister's blatant disregard for the recommendation of the Standing Committee on the Environment and Sustainable Development against the appointment of Glen Murray to chair of the national round table on the environment and the economy.

I am a new member of Parliament and the environment committee was my first choice for committee participation. This is also a minority Parliament. The Prime Minister set the table for stronger committees with stronger mandates. I would like to begin with what the Prime Minister once said though I dare not ever say he actually believed it himself. He said:

We have permitted a culture to arise that has been some 30 years in the making; one that can be best summarized by the one question that everyone in Ottawa believes has become the key to getting things done: 'Who do you know in the PMO?'

This Liberal Prime Minister said this only 14 months ago. Promises of slaying the democratic deficit were only meant to cover the slaying of the previous Liberal prime minister in order for this Liberal Prime Minister to claim the top job.

This was a candid admission of a self-evident truth. Political cronies with partisan ties to the Prime Minister get plum appointments. Some 3,000 to 4,000 appointments is quite a demand to fill for partisan pals, but the sponsorship scandal has shown us that many are indeed both called and chosen.

This Liberal Prime Minister also said the following some 13 months ago:

No longer will the key to Ottawa be who do you know. We are going to condemn to history the practice and the politics of cronyism.

The Liberal patronage leopard cannot change its crony spots. Let us together examine this Liberal Prime Minister's record.

The Prime Minister appointed Liberal MP Allan Rock as Canada's ambassador to the United Nations. He appointed Liberal member of Parliament Sophia Leung as his personal special adviser in order to appoint the current industry minister as a candidate in the last election. He appointed Liberal MP Sarkis Assadourian as his personal special adviser in order to clear the way for the current member for Brampton--Springdale to run in the last election. He appointed Liberal MP Yvon Charbonneau as ambassador to UNESCO in order to clear the way for his personal organizer to run in the last election. He appointed former Liberal cabinet minister Hélène Scherrer to the PMO. He appointed a host of Liberal provincial members to boards and agencies. He appointed defeated Liberal candidates, staff of Liberal cabinet ministers and personal aides to a host of ambassadorships, judgeships and panels. Their common thread was the fact that they were Liberals who knew the Prime Minister.

Most important today is the current appointment of a failed Liberal candidate, a current Liberal activist and paid voting delegate to the recent Liberal convention by the current Liberal Prime Minister to chair the national round table on the environment and the economy. Not only does this partisan appointment confirm that the torch has been passed from one Liberal prime minister to the current Liberal Prime Minister to hold high for all Liberals to see, but it further reinforces a deep and justified cynicism that breaking the hold of cronyism is another Liberal promise made and another Liberal promise broken.

Most alarming is the fact that this is happening in the age of the Gomery inquiry, a scandal that has rocked the public for its findings of a blatant Liberal Party patronage for contracts, an elaborate trail of dirty money kicked forward and back in a manner and effort to hide from public view the dispensing of Liberal Party political reward and favour.

It is important to note that the Prime Minister has made a grave error in appointing Glen Murray to chair the NRT. Primarily, it makes the review of appointments a worthless exercise in public relations rather than the intended place of sober recommendation on potential appointments. Second, the strong partisan links of the appointed to the Prime Minister will continue to colour any possible achievements of Mr. Murray as chair and will continue to be a mark against the government for breaking its promise to end cronyism. Last, as our motion at the Standing Committee on the Environment and Sustainable Development said, Mr. Murray lacks sufficient experience to fulfill the role for which he was nominated.

Let us start with the process of reviewing appointments.

The Prime Minister promised great things when he was campaigning for his job. He tapped into existing widespread understanding that appointments were not based on merit, but on relationship to the PMO. He raised expectations that his leadership would usher in a new era, a new era of ideas, a new era of vigour and energy, a new era where merit would take one as far and as high as one wanted to go. Nine years of planning to be prime minister, some would say nine years of plodding but I will give him the benefit of the doubt, the road to the PMO for the Prime Minister was paved only with good intentions.

It is much clearer now what the Prime Minister intended by his earlier comments on record. Committee and parliamentary review of appointments was never intended to affect his opinion and judgment on those appointments. A decision like ours at the environment committee where we voted seven to four against recommending Glen Murray for the position of chair of the NRT was envisioned by the Prime Minister as something to give him caution and seek out an alternate nominee. It was not that in actual fact. Mr. Murray, when he appeared before the committee at one point referred to himself as a nominee while no one ever believed he was. There were no other nominees for the position.

My distinguished colleague from Red Deer whom we heard earlier, the Conservative Party's environment critic, referred to the job interview process. This was no job interview. When I was elected last June, I became not only a public servant but an employer. I received hundreds of job applications from which my transition team culled the best prospects to fill a variety of jobs in my Ottawa office. For each position there were several qualified applicants selected for interviews. Each was interviewed until the best was selected.

We have no idea what process was undertaken to select Mr. Murray before it ever came to the environment committee. We know from Mr. Murray's testimony that he was asked in a phone call if he was available for the job. Then there was an e-mail telling him when and where to show up for the interview. Then a press release was issued by the PMO about his appointment.

It was fixed from the beginning. There were no options for the environment committee to interview candidates and pick the best. There was no process known from the PMO about how Mr. Murray was selected rather than others, if there were others. There was no pre-review interview for the position by the PMO. There was just a “Hey, Glen, are you available for the job? Come on down”, and a press release saying it was done.

The Prime Minister never cast his net wide in a search for the best candidate. The Prime Minister never intended to take any direction from committee in making the final determination on an appointment. In the end the Prime Minister scorned the will of the environment committee and appointed Mr. Murray anyway. Liberal promise made; Liberal promise broken.

Let us move to the partisanship of the appointment of Mr. Murray by the Prime Minister. There is no doubt in the minds of the members of the environment committee that Mr. Murray is a partisan appointment. He is a failed star Liberal candidate, hand picked and courted by the Prime Minister to run in the recent federal election. Actually the Prime Minister courted Mr. Murray to break his on record, oft stated commitment to the people of Winnipeg not to leave his mayoralty to run in the federal election. It is bad enough that the Prime Minister cannot keep his own promises to Canadians, but shame on him for putting others in the position of breaking their commitments to the people.

Mr. Murray told the people of Winnipeg that he would not short-circuit his term as mayor to run as the Liberal candidate in the recent federal election. Month after month he was asked if he would step down and run. “No time as mayor to campaign,” he once responded. “It would be hard to run while I am mayor”, he said another time. Mr. Murray actually never said he would not leave the city in the lurch to seek personal political fortunes with the Liberal Party and so he never finished his term as mayor of Winnipeg.

It is interesting that in his testimony before the environment committee Mr. Murray was asked many times by my colleague from Skeena—Bulkley Valley if he would actually serve his full three year term as the chair of the NRT, or would he instead run in the next federal election. Mr. Murray's responses sounded eerily familiar. There would be no time for him to campaign. It was the same room that allowed him to wiggle out of his obligations as Winnipeg mayor.

We are not confident that Mr. Murray will finish his term as chair of the NRT. We suspect the Prime Minister has elevated him to this position as a holding ground with profile until the next election where he could again run as a Liberal candidate. One might have greater confidence that Mr. Murray would complete the three year posting if he had not already publicly promised not to take a public service appointment in the wake of his defeat, if offered one. Liberal promise made; Liberal promise broken.

When we do a job interview, and I asked this at the committee, we look for tangibles and intangibles when we are interviewing somebody. My colleague from Red Deer elaborated on some of the tangibles that Mr. Murray lacked, such as his lack of knowledge on the issues. How can he determine and prioritize which issues the NRT should be pursuing if he does not understand them himself? There are some intangibles as well.

Mr. Murray before this committee was cavalier at one time saying, “Well, sometimes one changes one's mind”. That is not the kind of attitude we want from somebody who said in his own words that he wants to serve members of Parliament. He was evasive to questions and belligerent at times. I would not hire him based on this alone. He not only fails on the tangibles of qualifying but he also qualifies on the intangibles.

I want to go back to the partisanship issue. Mr. Murray ran as a Liberal candidate in the recent federal election. Mr. Murray owes much to the Prime Minister. After all, the Prime Minister went to great lengths to ensure an electoral victory for Mr. Murray. The Prime Minister chose a safe Liberal seat for him to run in. However, there was a problem. There was actually a sitting Liberal member of Parliament but that was no problem for the Prime Minister. He simply appointed that Liberal MP to the post of lieutenant governor of Manitoba in order to clear a spot for Mr. Murray. The Prime Minister will leave no Liberal stone unturned in order to reward a Liberal for doing his bidding.

It was only a matter of time before Mr. Murray, without a mayor's seat to fall back on, would be appointed for his faithfulness as a Liberal candidate. What has Mr. Murray done since his failed Liberal candidacy? He is still a card-carrying Liberal by his own testimony. He was also a paid voting delegate to the recent Liberal convention by his own testimony.

The previous ethics counsellor in 2003 ruled that anyone with a patronage appointment should not attend a leadership convention. The reasons are self-evident. One would wonder aloud whether Mr. Murray supported pot for 12 year olds and legalized prostitution and whether he voted to endorse the Prime Minister's leadership. All of these things were discussed at that convention.

One should not have to be concerned about these things but Mr. Murray's acceptance of the appointment raises the question. It would not exist if the appointment were not a partisan Liberal.

Mr. Murray testified before our committee and said, “I would like, if I could, to erase the line in a non-partisan way between Parliament and the national round table”. The only way to erase that partisan line is not to appoint a partisan to the position.

Since the Prime Minister is willing to go against the advice of the environment committee and appoint Mr. Murray come hell or high water, then Mr. Murray can achieve this same end by refusing to take the appointment. If he fails to do the honourable thing, then partisanship will continue to plague his efforts.

Whether Mr. Murray does the honourable thing or not, it is incumbent upon the House to send a stern message to the Prime Minister for engaging in crass partisan patronage. He will never respect the House if we fail to do so and committees will be nothing but a public relations front for the PMO. Worse, if the House fails to stand up for the prerogatives of committees, the Prime Minister will consider committees servile to his ends.

The Prime Minister has already broken his promise to eliminate the democratic deficit. It is in our hands to do it for him.

Last, let us look at the mandate of the environment committee in examining Mr. Murray's qualifications for the appointment as chair of the NRT. I may have covered some of this earlier but allow me a little latitude as I finish.

Those who know me best know that I am not a rabid partisan. It is my duty to the people of Essex whom I serve to be fair minded in my position as a member of Parliament. I approach my participation at committee with the same mindset. Notwithstanding the partisan context within which Mr. Murray was appointed and then sent for what one can loosely call a review, I came to the table with an open mind. I had never met Mr. Murray before, nor had I followed his career, save of course for the part about the successful election of his opponent, now my colleague, the affable and competent health critic for our party, the member for Charleswood St. James—Assiniboia.

I was looking forward to learning who Mr. Murray was and whether he had what it took to assume the appointment on merit. As preparation for the meeting committee members were handed Mr. Murray's biography. There were nice credentials, but Mr. Murray never presented in his biography credentials on the environment. Surely one would highlight one's environmental credentials and achievements in a biography if they were actually noteworthy. It was a small detail maybe. Our opponents across the way would contend it is a small detail but faithfulness in small things lays the foundation for trust and faithfulness in larger things, say a chairmanship of the NRT. This is a basic operating principle of life.

Was this a job interview? Not really. There were no other nominees put forward. Interestingly the process of nominating Mr. Murray as stated in Mr. Murray's own words before our committee was that he was phoned, then e-mailed and then showed up.

There was no due diligence, even on one candidate, for a job interview. There was no testimony of a grilling on issues or qualifications when the phone call was made to him. There was no probing, no series of pre-interviews. Shame on the Prime Minister for shoddy pre-interview work. No wonder everyone thinks this is a partisan appointment of someone who is unqualified for the job.

Does Mr. Murray understand his role as chair of the NRT? No. He testified that it was about networking. Then he testified that it was about setting the agenda. Then he said it was about the committee setting the agenda. Listen to Mr. Murray's own words: “We need a chairperson who can make sense of policy”. The members of the committee questioned his ability to understand policy and evaluate priorities in order to set the agenda for the NRT.

My colleague at the committee probed him on NO

x

and SO

x

and cap and trade, and any number of issues, all of which Mr. Murray never answered. I asked him about fee base and whether he knew enough to evaluate whether that should be a priority on which the NRT should be pursuing and researching and giving advice to the government. How does a person do that if he does not know what the issues are about?

We have post-Kyoto targets. He commented on the U.K.'s 50% to 60% reductions in CO

2

after the Kyoto timeframe, but he could not comment on whether he thought that would be something Canada should do or should not do. He could not evaluate the science of it. He could not evaluate whether it was a worthy target. He certainly could not make any recommendations on whether that should be a priority item for the NRT to be looking at and giving advice on to the government. Biomass, aquifer mapping and the list goes on and on. He does not know the issues. How could he evaluate if it is a priority for the NRT to be looking at and providing advice to the government? Those are all very key questions.

He was missing on the tangibles and missing on the intangibles. It was not a very successful job interview in my view.

I want to raise another issue. I am concerned about the values of chairing a committee such as the NRT. It is very important. It is on the environment and the economy and how he reconciles those principles.

Testimony came up at the committee. My hon. colleague from Fort McMurray—Athabasca inquired about some of his business dealings, particularly a company called Navigator PPG. This is very important. We all know Mr. Warren Kinsella is part of that company. I am going to quote Mr. Murray's testimony before the committee: “What we are negotiating right now”--for the record I should state that is between Navigator and his own company, the Glen Murray Group--is for them”--Navigator--“to carry some of the files and contracts that I have jointly with them”.

It is very interesting that in my home community very important proposals have come forward by the city of Windsor to solve the border corridor mess between Windsor and Detroit. It is called the Schwartz report for those in the House who do not know about it. It proposes to ram four lanes of trucks, 7,000 trucks a day, through a federal environmentally sensitive area and an area of natural and scientific interest.

There are very significant designations for this Ojibway wilderness complex. Interestingly, Navigator has been retained through a series of groups to promote routing 7,000 trucks a day through an environmentally sensitive area of natural and scientific interest. I hardly call that an environmental principle. Yet this is a group that is involved with the Glen Murray Group. It casts some credibility on what values Mr. Murray will bring to the chairmanship. Is it really going to be about the environment or is it going to be about the economy? It is worthwhile to be concerned about that.

On all counts he failed the job interview. I am not sure he has got the right values anyway to be the chair of the NRT. He does not understand what the job is about. There is partisan political patronage, cronyism and quite frankly, it stinks on all counts. I am not ashamed to say that. That is why the committee voted seven to four against recommending him. We stand by that commitment right now.

I call on the House to affirm the decision of the environment committee to reject this appointment, and call on the Prime Minister to do the honourable thing which is to withdraw the appointment and find someone who is better qualified for the job.

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a comment and then I have a question.

This is about the Prime Minister and the democratic deficit. The Prime Minister at best has been a disappointment. Not long ago I read where a columnist called him a man of bland imagination, of little inspiration and stunning mediocrity, and that his main virtue is that he is not Jean Chrétien. That is not saying much for our Prime Minister. He pledged repeatedly to fix the democratic deficit.

Since the hon. member has said that there is a democratic deficit, I would like to ask him, as our opposition leader has asked many people, can he name a single significant item that our Prime Minister has put in place to improve the democratic deficit and advance the cause of democratic reform?

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Mr. Speaker, this would end up being a very short answer because the answer is no, I cannot think of one time when the Prime Minister has done anything really significant to slay the democratic deficit.

I remember all the rhetoric. I remember the Prime Minister saying he was mad as hell, that everything was going to change, and that Ottawa was going to look different. This of course was when he was campaigning for the top job of the Liberal Party of Canada. Maybe it is easier to make promises before one gets there.

There was promise after promise. We were told that we were going to slay this democratic deficit. Ottawa was going to look different. No longer was the key going to be, “who you know in the PMO”.

In my speech today I listed a litany of patronage appointments. How is that anything good? I will not say contempt, but there is a disregard for the committee's opinion. We were going to empower committees. That was going to be one of the key elements that the Prime Minister was going to use to go after the democratic deficit. We were going to empower these committees to be masters of their own destiny. They were going to play a significant role in appointments, whether the Supreme Court or a review of appointments.

Look what happened in this case. Our committee registered an opinion. We evaluated the candidate on merits. We evaluated the context within which he came to the committee. We said that it was bad on all counts, seven to four, and we were going to recommend against this appointment. What did the Prime Minister do? He turned around and said that he was going to appoint him anyway with no respect for the process and no real commitment to getting rid of the democratic deficit in this country.

I will offer this much in wrapping up the answer. If the Prime Minister and the government do not want to do anything about the democratic deficit, they can all step aside and the Conservative Party of Canada will step in and do the job as the government in this country.

We are concerned about ensuring that there are more powerful individual MPs. That is why we are having a free vote on Bill C-38. I think that is very significant. The other party is not doing that. The cabinet is going to have to vote with the government on this one. There is no freedom. How does that help empower the people through their elected representatives? It does not do that. If the government members do not want to do the job, we will be glad to do it for them.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the member for his comments and his presentation today. I would like to follow up on some of the points that he made and one of my other colleagues, the member for Fort McMurray—Athabasca, also made dealing with the qualifications of the applicant, Mr. Murray.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of the Environment has stated on numerous occasions, as has the Prime Minister, that the primary qualification of this position is not to have intimate knowledge of the subject, but to be an effective chair.

I have heard from the presentation by my colleague from Essex and the previous presentation by my colleague from Fort McMurray--Athabasca that there needs to be far more inherent knowledge and in depth knowledge of the subject matter itself rather than just having effective chairmanship skills.

Could my colleague expand on that and whether he feels the government's position, that Mr. Murray would be an excellent employee because he is an excellent chair, is sufficient or does one need an in depth knowledge of the environment?

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Mr. Speaker, that is a very insightful question because notwithstanding the government's approach on this, it is not just about having some skills at chairing a meeting. I have been in a lot of meetings before and I have never chaired them because I have never felt that I was competent enough to do it in some circumstances. People have to know that they cannot punch above their weight. They have to recognize their own limitations and apparently Mr. Murray does not recognize his own limitations.

By his own testimony, Mr. Murray said that this is a panel of experts with 24 of the most brilliant minds in this country on the environment and the economy. What is the committee going to do, make up its own mind what the agenda is going to be? In that case, we do not even need a chair. We could just ballot the question and have a secretary record what they are going to study, but the truth is that the chair is going to have to set the agenda.

In order to set the agenda, the chair is going to have to know about the issues and is going to have to know which of those issues are going to be priorities. Maybe this chair would send us off studying feebates when in fact we should be studying cap and trade.

By Mr. Murray's own comments he said that his job is to ensure the agenda is set. He said that we need a chairperson who can make sense of policy. In his own admission he says one needs to know environmental policy, to evaluate those policies, and decide what is a priority and what is not a priority.

The people of Canada deserve to know that their government works for them, including these round tables even though they are not direct parliamentary committees. They need to know that what is out there is actually serving their interests and studying the right things.

Are we going to pay people to do something that is not even a priority for the House? That is a waste of my time. How does that serve me as a parliamentarian? Mr. Murray said he wants to serve us as parliamentarian. Well, he should have some understanding of the issues to evaluate the right priorities and provide the right advice, so that we get the right policies in this country. That takes some expertise in the environmental area, not just an ability to chair a meeting.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my colleague from Essex for his intervention on this motion brought forward by my colleague from Red Deer. The analogy that he used, saying that the Liberal leopards cannot change their spots on patronage, could also be extended to say that the Liberal Party is suffering from leprosy and they rot from that leprosy in cronyism. It just continues to go on and on. It is what is causing us to have such a bad reputation in government because of all this patronage.

My riding of Selkirk--Interlake borders the north side of Winnipeg. Mr. Murray was the mayor of Winnipeg during some of the greatest catastrophes that happened environmentally in that city. Of course, my riding had to handle all of the waste and environmental pollution that the city of Winnipeg caused under his watch, essentially dumping raw sewage directly into the Red River which flowed into Lake Winnipeg, which is a huge tourist area as well as a large commercial fishery and a sport and recreation zone. That cost the province dearly.

I am quite concerned that this mayor did not care about the environment when he was mayor. He had the chance to fix it through infrastructure, but instead took money and built a $1 million toilet on a footbridge that did nothing for the city of Winnipeg. Essentially, he proved to the community that he did not care about the environment, that he did not care about the pollution the city of Winnipeg was causing for the rest of the province. I want my colleague to comment on that.

Second, there were some rather hard comments made earlier today by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of the Environment. I am quite concerned that the parliamentary secretary is not sitting on this committee in an unbiased fashion. He is there as a mouthpiece, as a lapdog for the ministry. He is there representing the minister, not himself, and by and large representing the wishes of the Prime Minister. Does my colleague believe that the parliamentary secretary should be sitting on these committees and having any input into that matter?

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Mr. Speaker, for the benefit of all those who are watching, this committee, for the most part, is functioning quite well. We function in large measure in a non-partisan fashion, but the injections of partisanship that have come to this committee have come from the parliamentary secretary himself, whether it is his characterizations of our understanding of Kyoto or other aspects. They should not be in this committee as it poisons the atmosphere and keeps us from doing our job.

Regarding the issue of raw sewage, it strikes to two things: environmental priorities, is it a priority for the appointed; and also to the follow-through on a commitment. People make many commitments. We have heard Liberal promise made, Liberal promise broken, but the key here is follow-through. That is why promises are not kept. If one cannot stay through to the end to see environmental priorities through in a tangible way as a mayor, then how can we expect the same in chairing a committee that is responsible for environmental concerns? Will he stay around? Will we see this through? Will we get priorities actually acted on? That is critically at stake here.

We have expressed no confidence in this appointment. We call on the Prime Minister to withdraw the appointment now and provide us with a better candidate for that position.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Mr. Speaker, we are glad to be here to speak today. After hearing the discussion this morning, I think it sounds like Mr. Murray has about as much chance of success as a one-legged grasshopper in a chicken coop, but we will see what happens if the Prime Minister continues and is bound and determined to stay on the track he is on.

I am starting to understand the frustration and the annoyance of the environment committee. We have heard very clearly this morning from all the opposition parties about their frustrations in dealing with the Prime Minister's interference and involvement with them.

Through the last election campaign and actually prior to that when the Prime Minister was campaigning himself and was campaigning for the leadership, we were led to believe that he was going to make some substantial changes, that he was going to make some real changes to the way things were done and the way things were done in Ottawa.

Unfortunately that has not been the case, but he did make promises, especially to committees, that they would be much more involved and would have substantial and real input into the appointments that were made.

I guess we expected the Prime Minister to keep his word. Maybe we were naive, because we can see that this is not the case. One of the first indications, the first real evidence that he is not interested in following through on his promises, was shown in the appointment of Mr. Murray and the whole situation involving him.

Just to rehash it again, we want to talk a little about the process that took place. The environment committee believed that it was going to have substantial input into the appointment of the chairman of the round table on the environment. The Prime Minister came forward with Mr. Murray's name.

As we heard this morning from my colleague from Essex, who did a good job of pointing this out, there really was no nomination process at all to pick a chair for this committee. There was no place where people could apply for the job. Rather, as Mr. Murray apparently testified, he got an email. That was basically the first contact he had with the government about the job. I guess he expressed interest in it and then really the only follow-up was a phone call letting him know about the schedule and the arrangement to show up at the committee.

I am a little surprised at that. I would expect that for someone coming toward a position of such prominence as this one, where the position is basically directing the environmental direction of this country, there would be a real nomination process in place.

It actually reminds me of another area where the government is failing to really do due process. It is unrelated to this. It is in agriculture. Right now we have a process whereby there are 13,000 grain hopper cars that have been owned by the government for a number of years. Over the last seven or eight years the government has talked about disposing of those hopper cars. It has tried to come up with some way to do this. At different points, groups have expressed interest in those cars.

Over the last few months this issue has arisen again. As the government tries to deal with this, it has had to decide what it is going to do. Is it going to have a clear and open transparent procurement process here? What is it going to do?

This issue has been discussed at the agriculture committee and at the transport committee. The transport committee actually made a couple of good recommendations to the government. It said that first it wants the government to determine the maintenance costs of these cars so that everybody knows how much it costs to run them. Second, it said it wants a clear procurement process. It wants the government to be clear on how it is disposing of the cars.

Those seemed like pretty straightforward recommendations. It seemed that if they went to cabinet, cabinet should be and would be willing to adhere to them, but that was not the case. We come back and suddenly the transport committee's recommendations are being completely ignored by the transport minister. He has decided that rather than the recommendations he is just going to deal with one organization. That was all he was interested in. He is going to talk to one organization. About four or five organizations put forward proposals, but he said no, the government had the organization it would deal with picked out and it was not going to deal with any others.

This is actually a substantial investment. These cars are worth somewhere been $100 million and $200 million, but the transport minister said, “No, we are not interested in any kind of clear procurement process here. We are just going to negotiate a deal with one group”. That went on for about three weeks.

Now we have found out that there is another group behind the scenes which is being allowed to negotiate for ownership of these cars. While the minister has told farm groups in western Canada that he was sorry, but he was only dealing with one group, he has actually been dealing with two and maybe more behind the scenes. Farmers are beginning to ask the question, “Why is this government once again misleading us?” It has said one thing and it is doing something else, say farmers. Why is the minister not willing to do things in a clear and transparent way?

This comes back to the same issue we are dealing with today, that of Mr. Murray. The government is not willing to deal with these appointments in a clear and transparent fashion.

Changes are desperately needed. I guess the most important one would be to change the government and give us a chance to bring forward some of these measures that would clean up this corruption and pollution taking place in government today. Give us a chance to form the Government of Canada, I say.

It has to be frustrating for the environment committee to find itself in a situation where it is not able to influence this after the Prime Minister promised it. Basically, once the Prime Minister suggested that Mr. Murray was his choice without a nomination process, the committee rejected his appointment. In a seven to four vote, committee members said that this is not good enough, that this man is not qualified for the job. The Prime Minister turned around and completely ignored the recommendations of the committee and decided to appoint Mr. Murray to the position anyway.

The committee is interested in what is going on here. It has once again rejected Mr. Murray's appointment, this time in a nine to two vote. Via the member for Red Deer, the committee has brought the motion forward to the House today so that we are able to talk about this and let Canadians know what is actually going on in this situation.

We know it is frustrating for the committee. This whole aspect of patronage seems to go on and on and influences many different areas, not just the area of the environment. It also influences the area with which I have been involved, which is the Canadian Wheat Board.

It is interesting to note that the present Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board has a failed Liberal MP working for him. I was told at one point that he was going to be the minister's expert on the Canadian Wheat Board, but as it turned out, the member, who is from Ontario, has never had to deal with the Canadian Wheat Board and as far as I know he is unfamiliar with agriculture as well. Once again, that issue goes unresolved. Second, the Canadian Wheat Board, controlled by the minister, appointed the present Canadian Wheat Board minister's campaign manager as its government lobbyist.

When Canadians look to see what is going on after the election, they will see that not only are failed Liberal candidates being appointed to patronage positions, but some of the other people involved in campaigns have found themselves with positions serving government agencies as well. That is frustrating to all of us.

I should mention at this time that I will be splitting my time with the hon. member for Prince George--Peace River.

I would like to talk further about Mr. Murray and his fitness for office. It has been frustrating to listen to the debate this morning and to realize that this man is probably not qualified for this position. We know from his history that he was the mayor of Winnipeg and was picked as a star candidate by the Prime Minister to run in Winnipeg.

My first exposure to Mr. Murray was hearing news reports about how he was going to be a tremendous candidate. The impression was given that there was absolutely no way he would not be elected to the House of Commons. He was in a contested race with a Conservative member whom we know well because he won the seat and defeated Mr. Murray.

In order to give the slot to Mr. Murray, the Prime Minister had to move one of his MPs right out of the position. That was another example of patronage. Mr. Harvard retired from his position in the House and was then appointed lieutenant governor of the province of Manitoba. Looking around the room today, I would say that those of us here would not have picked Mr. Harvard as the top candidate for that position, but nevertheless the Prime Minister was only too glad to give it to him.

Mr. Murray basically has no academic or professional qualifications for this job. He has little or no experience with global environmental issues or economic issues. His predecessor had a whole history of environmental issues and was able to lead the environmental round table with his experience. Mr. Murray does not bring that to the table.

He does not bring good judgment to the table. He attended the Liberal convention here in the spring of 2005 after the ethics commissioner clearly told people who had received patronage appointments that they should not do that. Mr. Murray also oversaw the second largest sewage spill to take place in Lake Winnipeg.

I would like to close by mentioning that the parliamentary secretary complained that we do not know Mr. Murray, but he also complained that the member for Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia knew him too well. He was frustrated because he had come to the committee and revealed Mr. Murray's inadequacies.

I would like to conclude with the comment that the member for Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia made during the campaign when he talked about Mr. Murray. He said that as far as he was concerned, it was better to be paralyzed from the neck down than from the neck up. I think that would summarize Mr. Murray's qualifications for this job.

[Keith Martin, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, I listened with great interest to the Conservative member's comments. I want to bring to his attention regarding the issue of Mr. Murray the fact that as the mayor of Winnipeg he did engage in, adopt and was a leader in a number of local initiatives to improve the environment, particularly on the issue of public transportation.

I want to address some of the issues that Mr. Murray will be faced with, indeed, issues that many of Canadians are faced with, which are more important than the issue we are talking about today, that of his appointment.

One issue that Mr. Murray will have to deal with is global warming and how we will meet the requirements that we have embraced in order to meet the Kyoto accord targets. We can look at the equation of how we actually address the issue of greenhouse gases in a number of ways.

The science behind this is the fact that we burn fossil fuels and produce greenhouse gases. How we deal with that, and what Mr. Murray will have to tackle, is how we reduce the burning of fossil fuels. Perhaps the most efficient way of doing this is conserving the energy that comes from the burning of those fossil fuels. Said another way, if we conserve our energy better, we will see a reduction in the amount of carbon fossil fuels that we have to burn and, as a result, we will have a diminished production of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases.

The best way to do this is to conserve the energy that we produce. One of the best ways to do that is connected to how we insulate and build our homes and buildings and how we conserve energies in structures such as this.

Our government has put forth something called the EnerGuide. I would strongly recommend that all Canadians, particularly those building homes, please take a look at it. It contains options and tools on which we can build in a more efficient fashion, with better insulation. We can conserve energy better and in doing so we will reduce the amount of fossil fuels we burn and thus reduce greenhouse emissions. The interesting thing about doing this is that we will actually be able to meet our Kyoto requirements and go beyond them. That is the beauty of it.

My question for the member of the Conservative Party is on the issue of global warming. Does his party believe in global warming? Or does it ascribe to the notion that global warming is something that is backed by junk science and is merely a variation in the pattern of temperature variation that has occurred on our planet for hundreds of thousands of years?

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member for Selkirk—Interlake.

The member opposite raised the issue of global warming and asked Mr. Murray whether he could deal with that issue and whether he had a proper understanding of it, which is why we are here today. The motion from the environment committee is due to the fact that Mr. Glen Murray has insufficient experience in environmentally related fields of study. The committee has called upon the Prime Minister to withdraw Mr. Murray's appointment to the national round table on the environment and the economy.

The committee's concern is that Mr. Murray does not have the understanding necessary to deal with the issue of global warming. As we heard earlier this morning, members are concerned that he does not have the experience to deal with the issue of Kyoto. The government has manipulated that file in many ways and, from what we heard this morning, we do not have confidence that Mr. Murray has the ability to see through the manipulation that has surrounded that file.

After listening to the presentation by the member for Red Deer, it is clear that in his interview Mr. Murray did not have an understanding of carbon sequestration to adequately discuss the issue at that time. As I mentioned before, I am from a rural area where carbon sequestration is a huge issue. Farmers need to be confident that they will get paid something for the carbon and the carbon sequestration framework that we are setting up.

We are not at all confident that Mr. Murray has the ability or experience to deal with the manipulation that has taken place in the budget that was presented by the government where it has tried to slide environmental issues in under the radar in order to bring about huge change for Canadians in their tax structure and the amount of taxes that they will be paying.

It is clear that Mr. Murray, as he actually said himself at committee, realizes he has huge inadequacies. We just believe that those inadequacies are large enough that he should not be appointed to this position. We need a clear process for nominating someone who does have the experience to deal with those issues.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Marcel Proulx)]

May I point out to the next speaker that under normal circumstances there would be 10 minutes for debate and 5 minutes for questions and comments, however, because the three hour time allowance will finish at 1:10 p.m., members will only have 10 minutes, whether it be 5 minutes for debate or 5 minutes for questions and comments.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I want to follow up on the previous comments I made on the appointment of Mr. Murray to the national round table on the environment and the economy by discussing his history and track record in the city of Winnipeg.

As I have already stated, Selkirk—Interlake borders Winnipeg on the north side. Mr. Murray, under his watch when he was mayor, was the author and the individual responsible for the pollution that came out of the city of Winnipeg and was dumped into the Red River. It continues to this day.

During his 10 years as mayor, Mr. Murray had the opportunity to address the problem of making sure that we had proper sewage treatment in the city of Winnipeg to protect against the overflow and spillage of raw sewage into the Red River which, by and large, moves through my riding and goes straight into Lake Winnipeg. It affects the commercial fishery. My kids swim in that lake and they are swimming with raw sewage from the city of Winnipeg. People go there because it is a tourist attraction. Mr. Murray could have made the choice to invest in infrastructure to fix the environmental hazards that the city of Winnipeg has inherent in its system.

Mr. Murray has been out of the job for about a year now. Every time we have more than two inches of rainfall in the north part of the city, because the entire infrastructure is connected, the gutters drain into the sewage system, the sewage system overflows and it goes as a direct discharge into the Red River. This is unforgiveable. Mr. Murray had the choice but instead he focused in on his own pet projects.

A good example of that is the Esplanade Riel bridge that he built in Winnipeg. He spent $1 million in building a toilet. He put in place on this footbridge a restaurant that nobody would lease. It is a monolith that will sit there in recognition of the type of job that is Mr. Murray's legacy to the city of Winnipeg: a restaurant that nobody wants, a $1 million toilet that is not being used, and we still have an infrastructure problem with sewage being dumped straight into the Red River. How could the Prime Minister even consider him as someone to fill such an important role as chairman of the NRTEE? This is an individual who should be chastised, not rewarded. This is someone who should be fined, not given a plum patronage position.

I am also quite concerned about the involvement of the parliamentary secretaries on committees. The environment parliamentary secretary, who sits on the environment committee, was in the House making quite the impassioned plea, saying that we were playing politics. Just about everybody in the House has rejected Mr. Murray's appointment to the round table and yet the Parliamentary Secretary for the Minister of the Environment has the gall to stand in his place and criticize us for making this an issue in the House of Commons.

The environment committee has already rejected Mr. Murray's appointment. The Prime Minister went ahead and ignored the recommendations of the committee. We want to bring it before the House so that the House can make the decision and then give direction to the Prime Minister that this individual is not acceptable for this position.

It has been said over and over again that the Prime Minister promised to fix the democratic deficit. The Prime Minister said that he would put an end to cronyism and ensure that it was not who one knew in the PMO who got the jobs. However the pork-barrelling goes on. We still have appointee after appointee, who are all Liberal flunkies, getting prime government jobs. That is unacceptable and it is something Canadians across the country will reject when we go to the polls.

[Keith Martin, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, if the member has a plan, to which the municipalities have agreed to work with the provinces and the federal government, we can work together to deal with the issue. I know that has happened in British Columbia on the issue of sewage and it has worked very well. If he has a plan or knows of people with a plan in the area that is affected he should work with us to address the problem. Obviously no one wants to see raw sewage pouring into a river stream system so that it affects people.

However, on the issue of Mr. Murray, the member may or may not know this, but Mr. Murray was a leader in public transit. The reason he was a leader in public transit was to ensure we had a decrease in the burning of fossil fuels; that is, use our cars and SUVs less. In doing so, we would actually have a positive impact on that. As well, Mr. Murray was one of the most dynamic mayors in the country. He improved relationships between municipalities and came up with a number of very innovative solutions.

In talking about the issue of the environment, I would encourage the member to deal with the issue that I know affects many of the members in the Conservative Party, and that is the destruction of the prairie long grasses and the wetlands across the country. This destruction has been occurring for more than 100 years and we as a Parliament need to address it.

Does the member have any solutions? We have been working very hard. We have put money aside to work with local communities and municipal leaders, which is what Mr. Murray was, to implement solutions to preserve wetlands, long grasses and in other areas that we can use as carbon sinks to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions that are occurring.

I ask the member whether he wants to work with us to that effect and whether he has any plans that he can give to the House and the government so we can implement things for the betterment of not only the people of the Red River area but also Canadians as a whole.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I want to point out the facts for the parliamentary secretary. The reality is that Mr. Murray had ample time to develop a plan. Proposals for cleaning up the raw sewage problem in the city of Winnipeg were brought forward to him.

I understand that the President of the Treasury Board actually spoke to him about the problem and said that he had to fix it but he decided not to. When Mr. Murray was the mayor he decided to ignore the recommendation from the treasury board president, from local municipalities and from his own city council and went ahead with his own pet peeve projects. That is completely unacceptable.

My fear is that this individual will take over the national round table on the environment and the economy and set his agenda rather than working on what is best for Canadians. He definitely did not go through with what was best for Manitoba and what was best for the city of Winnipeg. He always brought forward his own pet peeve projects in trying to build his own little legacy.

This is the problem that we have and one that we have to fix.

The municipalities in my riding north of the city of Winnipeg continue to fight for the improvement of the environment. The city of Winnipeg, under Mr. Murray, completely shut them out. Instead, it wanted to talk about how it could charge more money to the guys coming into Winnipeg to do business or to do shopping and perhaps set up toll booths on the road or charge them more taxes. Mr. Murray had a very narrow agenda, one that did not look at the entire picture.

I recommend to the government and to all members of the House that Mr. Murray's position needs to be reviewed and that the Prime Minister should back off and renege on his appointment of Mr. Murray to the national round table. We need to find someone who is qualified, who has the capabilities, the leadership skills and who can come forward with a good idea of what the environment needs so we can drive home the agenda of protecting the environment and things that are important to the country.

The member talked about the long grasses. I am a rancher so I want to ensure we have a situation where we are protecting all ecosystems. Some great projects are going on in the long grass on the eastern prairies. We need to continue to fight that way. However it will be people who have that knowledge and concern who will drive that agenda. I doubt that Mr. Murray has that concern.