House of Commons Hansard #102 of the 38th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was budget.

Topics

Budget Implementation Act, 2005Government Orders

5:55 p.m.

The Speaker

I declare the motion carried. Consequently, the bill is referred to the Standing Committee on Finance.

(Bill read the second time and referred to a committee)

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-48, an act to authorize the Minister of Finance to make certain payments, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

The Speaker

Pursuant to order made earlier this day, the House will now proceed to the taking of the deferred recorded division on the motion at second reading stage of Bill C-48.

(The House divided on the motion:)

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

6:10 p.m.

The Speaker

I don't know why hon. members keep doing this to me. The Clerk has announced that there is an equality of votes for and against the motion. In these circumstances, it is the duty of the Speaker to break the tie.

The Speaker's vote is not based on his or her political affiliation, but rather on parliamentary traditions, customs and usages. I will therefore vote in accordance with parliamentary procedure, as I have done in the past.

The House tonight has been unable to reach a decision by majority vote. Parliamentary precedents are clear: the Speaker should vote, whenever possible, for continuation of debate on a question that cannot be decided by the House.

On May 4, 2005 I voted in favour of second reading and reference to committee of a private member's bill sponsored by an opposition member. At that time, I was guided by precisely the same procedural principles as I am following tonight, though my decision has arguably more momentous consequences.

Therefore, at this stage in the debate on this bill, since the House cannot make a decision, I cast my vote for second reading of Bill C-48 and its reference to the finance committee to allow the House time for further debate so that it can make its own decision at some future time.

I declare the motion carried. Consequently, this bill is referred to the Standing Committee on Finance.

(Bill read the second time and referred to a committee)

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

6:10 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Martin Liberal LaSalle—Émard, QC

Mr. Speaker, this was a tight vote, but the House has confirmed its confidence in the government.

The government respects the fact that the margin of tonight's vote was very narrow. That is an understatement. We must move forward now in a spirit of cooperation. In turn, we ask the opposition to join with us in a renewed effort to make this Parliament work for the people of Canada.

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Harper Conservative Calgary Southwest, AB

Mr. Speaker, I believe it would be appropriate for me to respond to that. I would obviously observe as well that the House has been extremely divided tonight. I think that too is an understatement. It reflects some of the deep passions on these and a number of issues throughout this country.

I always assure the Prime Minister, the Speaker and the Canadian public that a great deal of effort has gone into creating an opposition here that is united, vigorous and determined at all times to provide Her Majesty with a loyal opposition and a potential replacement for the government. We, of course, continue and will continue to do that.

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

6:15 p.m.

The Speaker

It being 6:19 p.m. the House will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed on today's order paper.

Age of ConsentPrivate Members' Business

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

moved:

That, in the opinion of the House, the government should restrict sexual activity between adolescents and adults by amending the Criminal Code to change the age of consent from 14 to 16 years of age.

Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to rise today on behalf of the constituents of Fleetwood—Port Kells to lead off the debate on my Motion No. 221, which seeks to amend section 150.1 of the Criminal Code to change the age of sexual consent from 14 to 16 years of age.

Currently, the age of consensual sex in Canada is set at 14 years of age. This is below the international norm of 16 years of age, and significantly out of line with the international convention on the rights of the child's recommendation of 18 years of age.

While I do not think consensual sex among teens should not be illegal, steps must be taken to prohibit sexual relations between adults and young people under 16 years of age. As it stands now, there is nothing in the Criminal Code about the age of the partners of children aged 14 to 18. So, in effect, adults can have sex with anyone 14 or older as long as they are not in a position of power or authority.

Recent reports in the media of adults engaging in sexual acts with 14 year old children confirm that people are taking advantage of the law.

Earlier this year a 40 year old man, who had sex with a 14 year old mentally handicapped girl, was acquitted of sexual assault. With the legal age of consent for sex at 14 years of age, the Crown had to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the girl did not consent to have sex with the older man and it was unable to do that.

One of the reasons why I became involved in elected politics was to fight for the protection of our children. Raising the age of consent is an important step that must be taken by government for it will give law enforcement officials another tool with which to pursue adults who prey upon our children.

Canada has a long history of prohibiting sexual intercourse with young females, regardless of consent. From 1892 to 1988 sexual intercourse outside of marriage with females under 14 years of age, and for those under 16 years of age and of previously chaste character, was illegal.

The maximum penalty upon conviction for sexual intercourse with a female under 14 years of age was life imprisonment. The maximum penalty for sexual intercourse with a female under 16 years of age was five years imprisonment. The law made no reference to young males.

Amendments to the Criminal Code in 1988 repealed unlawful intercourse and seduction offences and in their place created new offences called sexual interference and invitation to sexual touching that now prohibit adults from engaging in virtually any kind of sexual contact with either boys or girls under the age of 14, irrespective of consent.

The offence of sexual exploitation also makes it an offence for an adult to have any such contact with boys and girls over 14 years of age but under 18 years of age where a relationship of trust or authority exists between the adult and the child.

Since 1988 there have been repeated attempts by MPs to increase the age of consent. For example, in April 2002 the Canadian Alliance introduced a supply day motion for debate that called upon the government to raise the age of sexual consent to at least 16 years of age in order to give underaged children greater legal protection from sexual predators and child pornographers.

The government refused to support the motion and it went down to defeat by a vote of 163 to 62. The justice minister at the time, Mr. Martin Cauchon, said the Liberal government could not support the motion because consultation was needed. Besides this motion, there have been many private members' bills introduced and debated, including one by the member for Calgary Northeast in the 35th, 36th and 37th Parliaments, and another by the member for Wild Rose in both the second and third sessions of the 37th Parliament.

In this very session of Parliament we have been debating Bill C-2 with its proposed amendments to the Criminal Code aimed at enhancing the protection of children from sexual predators, pedophiles and pornographers, but noticeably absent from that bill, as I noted in my speech at second reading, is any proposal to raise the age of consent. The government apparently lacks the political will to make this vitally important change.

In 1982 former Prime Minister Chrétien, then justice minister, told the Toronto Star :

Children are innocent victims of vicious people. They cannot protect themselves and we have to protect them. I hate the thought of these people abusing people who are too young to realize in what it is they are participating.

If only his government and the one here today had shown the same sort of single-minded determination to protect children.

There is no question that sexual exploitation is a real and serious risk for children and youth in Canada. Our country's low age of consent for sexual intercourse is putting our children at risk. There are many reports of an increase in the number of youth being sexually exploited. With our lax laws, Canada is becoming a sex tourism destination for Americans and other foreigners as demonstrated by a Texas man who allegedly lured a 14 year old boy to an Ottawa hotel room last month.

Canada is listed on the Internet as an international source for sex with children and youth. The current age of consent leaves children and teenagers open to becoming targets of Internet sex scams, pornographers, pedophiles and sexual abuse.

About one-third of the child luring cases in Canada involve Americans trolling the Internet for sexual prey, according to a national tip line for web-based child sexual exploitation. In the last two years, cybertip.ca has had 20 tips on child luring cases that were later investigated by police. Of those, 32% of the suspects were American and 58% were Canadian. By the end of 2004 there were 75 web related child luring cases before the courts according to the Department of Justice.

Most of the tips reported to cybertip.ca since 2002 involve 13 and 14 year old girls. While it is difficult to document the reasons for the trend, one reason may be Canada's low age of consent laws. It is well known among police investigators that pedophiles use chat rooms to share secrets. Websites, for example, list the age of consent laws by country to facilitate sex tourism. Raising the age of consent to be more consistent with other western industrialized countries would discourage sex tourism. Having an older age would send a message internationally that children in Canada are not available for sex.

Having the age of consent set at 14 also makes it easy for predators to recruit young people into the sex trade without facing any repercussions or without initially committing any offence. Once the youth are entrenched in the relationship, they are then convinced or coerced into engaging in illegal activity.

Recruiters consciously choose to form consensual relationships with youth over the age of consent but as young as possible in order to make it easy to gain a hold on them. Raising the age of consent would assist in the prosecution of adults who buy sex from young children because the adults could be charged with sexual assault and it would not be necessary to prove that there was negotiation for money or other consideration.

In B.C.'s lower mainland we are all too familiar with the problem of prostitution. Studies have found that 70% to 80% of Canadian prostitutes entered the trade as children. There are literally hundreds of prostitutes under 17 years of age currently working Vancouver streets. The recruitment process for the sex trade in Canada preys on young girls and boys, and specifically targets those who are at the current age of consent.

According to the Children of the Street Society, the majority of parents who call asking for help have children who are 14 years old and are being recruited into the trade. They argue that if the police had the ability to pick up girls or boys, regardless of their consent, and return them to their family or take them to a safe house, then many youth would be saved from entering the sex trade.

It is no use looking at the age of consent from the perspective of the advantaged, critically thinking, well protected 14 year olds. Asking them if they want Big Brother to interfere in whom they are sexually active with at 14 is folly indeed.

If one were to ask them if they thought 50-year-old men should be able to target 14-year-old runaways for sex, give them AIDS or other diseases or get them pregnant, one might get a different response.

There is widespread consensus that 14 is simply too young for the age of consent. Child psychologists agree that children younger than 16 lack the maturity and development to make good judgments and are unlikely to recognize the manipulative nature of pedophiles.

The results of dozens of studies show the effects of adult sexual contact with children. There is a 21% higher risk of clinical depression, a 21% greater chance of suicide, a 20% increase in post-traumatic stress disorder and a 14% jump in extreme promiscuity and involvement in prostitution.

Studies have also shown that between the ages of 13 to 15 years children are at the highest risk of sexual exploitation. However, despite all this evidence, the government continues to argue that youth are mature and sophisticated enough to ward off the advances of pedophiles and predators.

It is vitally important that we do no confuse physical maturation with psychological maturation. The “age of majority” is a term used by lawyers to describe the time in life after which a person is legally no longer considered a child. In essence, it is an arbitrary time when a child becomes an adult in the eyes of the law.

Why is it that we as a society feel children are ill-prepared to drive, drink, vote, marry, drop out of school or even watch violent movies but feel they are totally ready to decide for themselves with whom they should have sex? This makes no sense.

Raising the age of sexual consent would put us more in line with other western nations. In Denmark, France and Sweden the age of consent is 15. In Australia, Finland, Germany, Holland, Israel, New Zealand, Norway and the United Kingdom it is 16.

In Virginia, like many other American states, the age of consent is 18. Adults having sex with 13 year olds to 15 year olds may be found guilty of felony “carnal knowledge” and face up to 10 years in jail and steep fines. Adults having sex with minors aged 16 to 18 may be guilty of “contributing to the delinquency of a minor”, a misdemeanour that can carry jail time and a fine.

It is time for the Canadian government to follow the lead of other western governments and prohibit adults from having sex with children under the age of 16.

Some argue that raising the age of consent from 14 to 16 would criminalize sex between teens close in age. This was the argument used by the Secretary of State for Children and Youth a couple of years ago in the House. She said that young people worry that they would become criminals if the age were raised. She stated:

They want to know they would have not only protection from predators but from a system that could unduly confine or prosecute them.They do not want to be doubly victimized by both the predator and those proposing to protect them.

In a similar vein, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, the member for Vancouver Centre, writes on her website:

Raising the age of consent from 14 to 16 would place unprecedented limits on the freedom of young persons. It should be noted that raising the age of consent to 16 would criminalize sexual activity between adolescents that is now legal. Such an amendment could allow a 16 year old to be prosecuted for virtually any sexual contact with a 15 year old boyfriend or girlfriend. Instead of criminalizing the sexual activities of consenting teenagers who are of a similar age, the Liberal government has focused on protecting our children from sexual predators.

This is sheer nonsense and borders on fearmongering. There is an easy solution to the concern of raising the age of consent. Too often young girls think they have found their Prince Charming. They are young and everything is beautiful. They cannot see the big picture. The government's refusal to budge on the age of consent further demonstrates how out of step the Liberals are with the values of Canadians.

As parliamentarians we need to act now before more innocent lives are ruined. Motion No. 221 proposes an amendment to the Criminal Code that is consistent with the recommendations of all provincial governments and various stakeholder groups, including Beyond Borders, the Canadian Police Association and REAL Women of Canada.

Parliament now has the opportunity to send a direct and clear message to Canadians that it will no longer stand for the potential abuse of innocent 14 year old children by perverted 40-year-olds.

I call upon my fellow members to support this initiative and give our children the protection they deserve.

Age of ConsentPrivate Members' Business

6:35 p.m.

Conservative

Jim Abbott Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Mr. Speaker, I congratulate my colleague from Fleetwood--Port Kells for bringing forward the motion. It is a motion that is desperately overdue. It is a motion that should have been in effect for years. It is a motion that, as she has already said, is something that is reflected in so many other countries.

I guess it is always difficult to get into the mind of a Liberal. However, because this is a serious debate, I will try to stay away from partisanship when I make that comment.

I wonder if my colleague has any idea at all what possible justification there could be for the Liberals dragging their feet on this, with it being such an important social issue.

Age of ConsentPrivate Members' Business

6:35 p.m.

Conservative

Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Mr. Speaker, children are our future and their protection is not only a moral responsibility but it is securing our future.

My main concern is that adults should not have sexual activity with children. They are taking advantage of our law and our children are being exploited. They are not big enough to drive. They are not big enough to vote. They are not big enough to drink. Why are they big enough to make such an important decision in their lives?

As parliamentarians we should act now before any innocent lives are ruined.

Age of ConsentPrivate Members' Business

6:35 p.m.

Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca B.C.

Liberal

Keith Martin LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence

Mr. Speaker, I know we share a common interest in protecting our children, particularly from sexual predators. Certainly in this country we have seen too many cases where children are exploited. We do not agree with the member's motion but we do agree with the intent, which is to protect young children from sexual exploitation by those who are much older.

The problem that she voices, in terms of raising the age in the manner she proposes, is that it could criminalize other teenagers who are just slightly older than the age of which she speaks, and for better or for worse, young children are having sexual intercourse too young in too many cases.

Perhaps the better way to do this is to invest in more resources to educate children in terms of their sexual health and the options they have, of putting off sexual activity until later and if they are going to engage in sexual activity to make sure that it is done in a safe way.

Second, on the issue of those vile creatures who are pedophiles who prey upon innocent children, perhaps she could recommend ways in which we could identify these people better, penalize them more and, frankly, keep them in jail longer and protect society. In doing the initial assessment on them once they are convicted of engaging in pedophilia, perhaps there could be checks and balances to ensure that when they are released they are not at risk of reoffending.

At the end of the day I think she would agree that our number one priority is to protect innocent children from sexual predation by adults.

Would the member have some thoughts on how we can ensure that pedophiles, who are sexual predators, are not released if they are deemed to be a danger to society?

Age of ConsentPrivate Members' Business

6:35 p.m.

Conservative

Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Mr. Speaker, I cannot imagine how any parent or any sensible person here could vote against my motion. In 1988 repeated attempts were made by MPs to move motions concerning the age of consent. They had introduced a supply day motion but the government defeated it. I think some leadership should be taken on this.

A child is a child. Fourteen-year-olds are not big enough to make such an important decision. They cannot vote nor can they drive so why would they be able to make such an important decision in their lives?

Age of ConsentPrivate Members' Business

6:40 p.m.

Bloc

Richard Marceau Bloc Charlesbourg, QC

Mr. Speaker, let me say first that it is an honour to speak to this bill, especially since you are in the chair. We have an opportunity to work together on another committee. I must say that, up to now, it has been very pleasant, although the situation has at times been tense for reasons that escape you and me.

To begin, I would like to make two preliminary remarks and eight comments, which I hope will provide food for thought. My first preliminary remark is as follows. It is somewhat odd to be speaking to this topic, the age of consent. These days, in the Standing Committee on Justice, Human Rights, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, one of the topics we are discussing is Bill C-2, which also concerns the age of consent and the sexual exploitation of children.

We are having this debate for Bill C-2. I think that it should take place in that context and not now, in this House. I believe it is a bit of a duplication of the resources and efforts of parliamentarians. The member could easily have introduced his bill as amendments during discussion of Bill C-2.

The second preliminary remark is as follows. It is something to see a party wanting to toughen the Young Offenders Act and the application of the Criminal Code as it pertains to young people, thus reducing the age of criminal liability, on the one hand, and raising the age of consent, on the other. In my opinion, it makes no sense. I realize the Conservative Party is not necessarily known for the logic of its positions, but this is a flagrant lack of rigour on a matter of considerable sensitivity.

In the Bloc Québécois we oppose Motion M-221, and Bill C-313, which propose to raise the legal age of consent in sexual relations from 14 to 16 years.

I have to say right off that our position in the Bloc in no way means we would like, support or promote sexual relations between young adolescents. Far from it. We do, however, believe that this is not the right approach.

I shall now proceed to my comments. First, sexual exploitation of children under 18 is already illegal, and consent is not a valid defence. That is already the case.

My second point is that, by raising the legal age of consent, we would be jumping on the bandwagon of sexual repression. Many sexually abused youth have reported that the huge industry of prostitution is, unfortunately, created and fostered by the absence of a healthy sexual climate and of adequate sexual education.

The third point that is important to make is that a higher age of consent would in fact criminalize sexual activity between peers. This means that persons below the age of consent would be prohibited from consenting to engage in sexual relations, regardless of the age of their partners. For instance, such an amendment would enable the courts to try a 16-year old for having sexual contact of any kind with his 15-year old girlfriend.

My fourth point about the age of consent is that raising it does not really solve anything, because there are adults who want to have sexual relations with children. If adult predators are the problem, they should be dealt with directly. Perhaps we ought to assess how evidence is collected and presented and what the role of the courts should be in protecting children. We have to ask ourselves the following question. How can we protect children against abuse through exploitation when the abusers flout the law?

Even setting the age of consent at 25 would not eliminate abuse. The only way to protect adolescents is by educating and empowering them.

The legislation should be based on the activity engaged in, not the age of those involved. Age does not matter, if abuse and exploitation are illegal and criminal.

The problem lies not with the legislation, but with its application. If current federal legislation against exploitation is difficult to enforce, then it has to be changed. That is what we are doing with Bill C-2.

Increasing the age of sexual consent could have the perverse effect of introducing some young people to the justice system. There are many lawyers in this House and others watching us. The justice system is complicated and cumbersome. People involved in it often pay a personal, psychological and moral toll. It is not something we would want for our young people.

Increasing the age of sexual consent also prevents young people from making decisions for themselves. I find that the age of consent is often used as an excuse to limit access to sexual education and contraceptives.

In closing, I want to reiterate the following. We are absolutely against the exploitation of children. I introduced Bill C-303 to impose tougher sentencing on anyone found guilty of sexual offences involving a minor, whether related to pornography, pedophilia, or the sexual exploitation of children. Bill C-303 will provide for minimum sentences, mandatory prison sentences, for the people who exploit these children who are the future of our society and who are so dear to our hearts.

I have already mentioned in this House and I will repeat it again today, my Bill C-303 to impose tougher sentences on those found guilty of sexual offences involving minors, will be presented as an amendment to Bill C-2 at the Standing Committee on Justice, Human Rights, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness. We will discuss it on the Tuesday when we come back from our break.

I can guarantee that the next time Bill C-2 comes before this House, it will include minimal sentences for sexual predators who attack our children. It will be a major improvement in law in general and also in the protection of our children who are, as I was saying, vulnerable persons. These young people deserve the protection of all the members in this honourable House.

Age of ConsentPrivate Members' Business

6:45 p.m.

Northumberland—Quinte West Ontario

Liberal

Paul MacKlin LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada

Mr. Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to participate in today's debate on Motion No. 221, which proposes to restrict sexual activity between adolescents and adults by amending the Criminal Code to raise the age of consent to sexual activity from 14 to 16 years of age.

The apparent goal of the motion is laudable, namely, to better protect youth against sexual abuse and exploitation, but I do not support the means chosen to achieve this goal. The protection of our youth against sexual abuse and exploitation is very important. It is, however, equally important to ensure that whatever we do to achieve the objective, we get it right.

Unfortunately, the motion does not get it right. Before I discuss the motion, I think it is important to remind hon. members about what the existing age of consent criminal laws are.

Currently, the age of consent to sexual activity is 18 years of age where the relationship is exploitative, such as where it involves prostitution, pornography, or where there is a relationship of trust, authority or dependency. Where none of these exploitative circumstances exist, the age of consent is 14 years. However, it is important to be clear about this: any non-consensual sexual activity, regardless of age, is a sexual assault.

It is important to recall that these laws apply to all forms of sexual activity, from sexual touching to sexual intercourse. Accordingly, all sexual activity below the age of consent is prohibited.

Motion No. 221 proposes to raise the age of consent from 14 to 16 years, presumably to address the exploitative type of conduct. Yet it does not propose, and this is very important, the creation of any exception, such as, for example, for youth who engage in consensual sexual activity with peers.

There are many views about when and at what age it is appropriate for young persons to engage in sexual activity, but the fact of the matter is that young persons do engage in sexual activity and they do so at perhaps a younger age than some may think.

On May 3 of this year, Statistics Canada's The Daily reported that by age 14 or 15 about 13% of Canadian adolescents have had sexual intercourse. The percentage was almost the same for boys and girls, 12% and 13% respectively. From this, one might presume that youth are engaging in other or lesser forms of sexual activity at an even earlier age.

Under Motion No. 221, it would be okay for two 16 year olds to engage in sexual activity, but it would not be okay for a 15 year old and a 16 year old to kiss. If we consider how Motion No. 221 might impact on these youth, it seems pretty clear that it would criminalize at least 13% of Canadian youth and probably more. Is this how we protect our youth? By making them young offenders? And just who are we protecting them from in these circumstances?

This is why I do not support Motion No. 221. I prefer instead the government's broader and more effective response to this very issue. This response is found in Bill C-2, an act to amend the Criminal Code (protection of children and other vulnerable persons) and the Canada Evidence Act.

Bill C-2, which is currently before the justice committee, proposes to create a new category of prohibited sexual exploitation of a young person who is over the age of consent for sexual activity, that is, who is at least 14 years of age or older and under 18 years.

Under this new offence, the courts will be directed to infer that a relationship with a young person is exploitative of that young person by looking to the nature and circumstances of that relationship. The bill directs the court to consider specific indicators of that exploitation, including the age of the young person, any difference in age between the young person and the other person, the evolution of that relationship, and the degree of control or influence asserted over that young person.

The bill provides a clear direction to the courts to infer that the relationship is exploitative of the young person after examining the nature and the circumstances of the relationship and the youth himself or herself.

In other words, Bill C-2 recognizes that chronological age is not the only indicator of vulnerability. Instead, it recognizes that the particular circumstances of some youth, including 16 year olds and 17 year olds, may put them at greater risk of being exploited. It recognizes that the way in which a relationship develops can also be an indicator of exploitation.

For example, Bill C-2 will apply to better protect youth who are lured over the Internet by persons who would prey on their vulnerability. Such encounters usually occur secretly and quickly. Bill C-2 says to the courts: take this into account in the evolution of the relationship as an indicator of exploitation.

Bill C-2 provides increased protection to all youths between ages 14 and 18 and not just the 14 year olds and 15 years olds, as Motion No. 221 proposes.

Bill C-2 also focuses the law's attention on the wrongdoer instead of on whether the young person ostensibly consented to that conduct. Bill C-2 says in fact that young persons cannot legally consent to be sexually exploited.

Motion No. 221 seeks to restrict sexual activity between adolescents and adults. In contrast, Bill C-2 seeks to protect youth against sexual exploitation by any person who would prey on the young person's vulnerability, whether that person is considerably older than the young person or close in age.

As I said at the outset, while I can appreciate the apparent underlying rationale of Motion No. 221, I cannot support it. It falls far short of achieving the objective and at the expense of those whom it seeks to protect.

I agree with Bill C-2's response to this issue. I respectfully submit that Bill C-2 gets it right. This motion does not.

Age of ConsentPrivate Members' Business

6:55 p.m.

Conservative

Jim Abbott Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Mr. Speaker, I am interested in speaking to Motion No. 221, which states:

That, in the opinion of the House, the government should restrict sexual activity between adolescents and adults by amending the Criminal Code to change the age of consent from 14 to 16 years of age.

The motion, sponsored by my colleague from Fleetwood—Port Kells, is a very important for the protection of Canada's young people. Canada's justice minister has legislation relating to issues like the age of sexual consent currently in the parliamentary system, Bill C-2. However, his legislation does not protect a very vulnerable category of young people between 14 and 16 years of age. As has been noted by my colleague from Fleetwood--Port Kells, the federal Liberals are prepared to leave the 14 and 16 year olds within the grasp of sexual predators.

The member has commented that young people at these ages can easily become targets of pornographers, pedophiles and Internet sex scams and that those children's parents are horrified to learn that Canadian law fails to provide them with legal recourse.

As member of Parliament for Kootenay—Columbia, my interest in speaking to Motion No. 221 relates to a polygamist sect in an area called Bountiful within my constituency. I have always made my position clear publicly and privately that I do not support the practice of polygamy and I am fully supportive of the current laws against the practice of polygamy.

However, there is a concern on the part of the attorney general of the province of British Columbia, who is responsible for prosecutions within our province, that the current law on polygamy would not withstand a charter challenge. It is important for Canadians to respect the laws of our great nation and realize that whether people live in Coquitlam or Creston, Burnaby or Bountiful, that all residents in Canada must have laws applied equally.

Further, laws must be made for all Canadians and for the good of all Canadians. Laws for exceptions invariably create unintended consequences. If all Canadians must be equal, then all laws for Canadians must be equal and the enforcement of the law must be equal.

It is important that children across Canada are protected between the ages of 14 and 16 and this includes the colony of Bountiful. I note that women representing the Bountiful community have called on the government to raise the age of consent from 14 to 16. To be clear, a law that could be applied in Bountiful must also be equally applied in Burnaby.

As stated by the member for Fleetwood—Port Kells, young people at 14 years of age do not have the maturity to make responsible decisions in regard to sexual activities with adults. In most democratic jurisdictions that include the United Kingdom, Australia, most American states and European countries, adults are prohibited from having sexual relations with children less than 16 or even 17 years of age. However, in Canada, a child may legally consent to sex with an adult when they reach age 14. Our laws excuse criminal responsibility where the victim is as young as 12 if the adult believes the child to be 14.

In this case, despite persistent calls from provincial attorneys general and premiers, child advocacy groups, police and countless other organizations, including the Conservative Party of Canada, successive Liberal ministers of justice continue to resist the proposal to raise Canada's age of sexual consent.

I restate, in the judgment of the Attorney General of the province of B.C., the polygamy law that people wish applied in the polygamist colony of Bountiful is unenforceable because of Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Until the polygamy law is enforceable, it is imperative that we do what we can to protect those between the ages of 14 and 16. Neither the existing Canadian law nor the proposals in Bill C-2 effectively address the sexual exploitation of children under the age of 16 by adults. By raising the age of consent, the law can truly protect children. This motion is not the answer, but may be a small part of working toward ensuring the protection of 14 and 16 year olds.

It is distressing that the federal government is not supportive of the motion, not only because of the Bountiful issue, but because it is the right thing to do. The clear message to society is that all adult sexual activity with vulnerable youngsters will not be tolerated.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

7 p.m.

Saint Boniface Manitoba

Liberal

Raymond Simard LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Deputy Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, discussions have taken place between all parties concerning tonight's debate on the motion to concur in the second report of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts. I believe you would find consent for the following motion. I move:

That the debate on the motion by the member for Edmonton—St. Albert, and the amendment by the member for Kitchener Centre be deemed to have taken place, all questions put, recorded divisions requested and deferred to the end of government orders on Wednesday, June 1, 2005.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

7 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

The House has heard the terms of the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

7 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to)

The House resumed consideration of the motion.

Age of ConsentPrivate Members' Business

7 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is important to note that we are debating a motion tonight as opposed to a bill. It is simpler to deal with the motion. It is more flexible in terms of House procedures. While adoption of the motion would not directly bring about a change in the law, it is intended to influence the evolution of the law.

The object of the motion is to protect young people believed to be vulnerable. I think most people in the House regard young Canadians as sometimes vulnerable in some contexts. As I see it, the difficulty in this area perhaps began back in 1988. In the remarks by the mover of the motion, she referred to the reforms in 1988 of the definitions used to proscribe and prohibit sexual assault, or rape as we called it in the old days, and other sexual assaults.

At that time, the sexual assaults were bundled into one definition of sexual assault. The definition does not distinguish between matters such as sexual touching, which could be a sexual assault in some contexts, and other more aggressive sexual assaults. If one is looking at a spectrum, sexual intercourse by rape. As a result of that, when it comes to defining sexual conduct and what is prohibited, because of the bundled definition in the Criminal Code, we are forced to use the big basket definition rather than an individual one.

When we talk about sexual assault or activity, we are not referring only to sexual intercourse. Because of the definitions within the Criminal Code, we are forced to deal with the full bundle of sexual activity that is described by the term “sexual assault”. That should be kept in mind as I make my remarks and as other members debate this. We are talking about sexual touching as well as other sexual conduct.

That makes it sometimes difficult because some Canadians have certain views of some types of sexual activity and different views on other types of sexual activity. For example, a game of spin the bottle by 15 year olds, might garner a reaction from some Canadians a certain way but not others. Yet the motion includes all the above.

When I look at our young people, I am concerned because I am not sure I can make a distinction between a 15-year-old and a 16-year-old or a 16-year-old and a 17-year-old. The motion recommends that we remove the ability to provide consent, therefore, create a prohibition on all sexual activity for anyone 14 or 15 years of age, even if the 15-year-old associates with a 16-year-old. This is a conceptual problem but a real problem. We are in a sense remaking the Criminal Code, reaching down into the conduct between two young people and criminalizing it in effect by changing the definitions.

While I respect the objective, I have concerns about how it is done. The Criminal Code has been evolving, but there is now a recognition that there is a problem related to the luring of young people into situations, the inducement coming not from the boyfriend or girlfriend but from adults.

That is sometimes happening on the Internet now, where there is much freer communication between people and their desktop computers and, as members around here know, even with BlackBerries. There is a lot of communicating. If that communicating involves the luring of a young person by an adult, a 15 year old or 14 year old young person, Canadians find that quite objectionable. I do too. I think every member in the House finds it objectionable.

I want to commend to the House the approach taken by Bill C-2. My colleague on this side of the House has described the bill. The bill takes a different approach. It certainly is there to protect our children, but it focuses on the persons who attempt to induce the sexual conduct, who attempt to induce the vulnerable. That bill is currently before the justice committee. It proposes the creation of a new prohibition against sexual exploitation of a young person between the ages of 14 and 18.

We should note that the current motion deals with the category of ages 14 and 15. The new Criminal Code bill deals with ages 14 to 18, the full range of underage persons who might be lured into sexual exploitation.

With the new prohibition, the focus is on the wrongful conduct or behaviour of the accused person, the person doing the luring. Just as when there is a sexual assault case between adults, the proscribed conduct is not with the young person, the victim, but with the person who engages in the luring. The consent of the young person is actually not relevant here. The person does not have to consent or not consent. What we have happening, in the typical case I have mentioned, is an adult person seducing the younger one.

Under Bill C-2, a court could infer that a sexual relationship with a young person is exploitative of the young person, and therefore prohibited, by considering the nature of the relationship and the circumstances surrounding it. One consideration is the age difference between the youth and the accused person. Next is the evolution of the relationship. For example, did it develop quickly? Did it develop over the Internet? Where did that relationship evolve? Last is the degree of control or influence exercised over the young person by the accused.

In other words, Bill C-2 includes a list of factors, not just chronological age. I think that most reasonable people will acknowledge that factors like these will be a better indicator of a young person's vulnerability. That is a key difference between what the motion recommends and what Bill C-2 is intending to define in this Criminal Code amendment.

As I understand it, that bill is before committee now and it is anticipated that it could be back into the House very shortly at report stage, within days, and that will allow the House and Canadians to have a better look at it.

In the meantime, we are discussing this motion. As I say, it is a bona fide initiative intended to regularize an area where we have seen some difficulty.

In dealing with Bill C-2 again, with the broader consideration of all of the indicia of exploitation, we recognize that some youth may be vulnerable to being exploited, not only by persons who are much older but in some cases even by their peers. Again, the vulnerable person might be vulnerable in many contexts: by age, by maturity or in terms of other factors. Bill C-2 will take those factors into account.

I have already pointed out that the bill deals with the age group of 14 to 17 years, whereas the motion does not.

I acknowledge the importance of this debate. It is important that Canadians understand some of these differences as we attempt to address this area of concern. I believe that the bill before Parliament will. There will be more debate on it later.

I congratulate the member for taking up the issue in private members' business.

Age of ConsentPrivate Members' Business

7:10 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

Mr. Speaker, it is an honour to speak on Motion No. 221 proposed by my colleague, the member for Fleetwood--Port Kells.

The member from Fleetwood--Port Kells is one of our hardest-working members. I want to acknowledge that in this House and thank her for her hard work and for sticking up for our children.

The justice minister spoke to our justice committee today. He said that the protection of the most vulnerable, our children, is one of his highest priorities. He shared with us about his daughter; actually I believe it has been three times that he has shared that same story. He looks at justice and protecting children and he applies it to his own daughter.

I can identify with that. I believe he is a man of compassion and wants to protect our children, but I am puzzled as to why it is just words and why we are not seeing some action.

To be specific, let me look at my children. I have five children and one grandchild. My children are grown now, but I look at them and ask myself if 14 year olds have the cognitive skills to be able to decide to give consent to sexual relations. Are they mature enough?

No, they are not. That is what we are hearing from the professionals. They do not realize the consequences of their decisions. It could be a sexually transmitted disease. It could be pregnancy. It could be long term problems that are associated with that decision, and it is about building a relationship. Does a 14 year old have those skills? The experts are telling us no.

We have heard from the Federation of Canadian Municipalities, which represents municipalities across Canada. It has said to raise the age of consent. It says that 14 is way too young. We have heard from police chiefs and we have heard from the experts. They are saying to raise the age of consent.

At the justice committee about a month ago, we had some of the experts dealing with Bill C-2. One of the primary reasons they were there was to show us how we compare to other countries in the world. Canada has one of the lowest ages of consent.

The member for Fleetwood—Port Kells is right on the mark. She is saying what Canadians want and what the experts are saying. She is saying what the Federation of Canadian Municipalities is saying. The vast majority of Canadians are asking why this government would resist raising the age of consent. It is beyond understanding.

Should a 14 year old have relations with a 40 year old, a 50 year old or a 60 year old? That is legal in Canada if he or she gives consent. We have even heard of an example where a 12 year old told the adult that she was 14, so therefore it was okay. She was only 12. It is not okay. This government has to protect our children and it is not doing that.

Fourteen year olds cannot buy cigarettes. Children have to wait until they are 16 to get a driver's licence. They cannot drink alcohol. But this government says it is okay for them to give consent. A 14 year old does not have the maturity to make that decision.

The most vulnerable in every Canadian community are our children. They are our future. If we do not protect them from abuse, we are falling down in our responsibility. Our fundamental responsibility is to protect our children.

A week ago I saw pictures. They were horrible pictures. They were pictures of child pornography. They were disgusting. That is what adults do. They will look after children, take them out for a pizza and video games, build the relationship, show them pornographic pictures and groom them for their consent.

That is absolutely wrong. We are not protecting our children. A 14 year old can be manipulated. Why are we not raising the age to 16? As I have said before, the experts are telling us to raise the age. Why the resistance?

Today the justice minister said that we do not want to have a restriction on teenagers experimenting. That is not what we are talking about. There can be built into that a difference in age of two years or five years so that if there were a relationship between a 16 year old and, if there were a two year spread, an 18 year old, it would be a 16 year old and an 18 year old. If it were a five year spread, it would be a 16 year old and a 21 year old. We are not talking about criminalizing teenage relationships. We are talking about the terrible abuse of our children.

We have people from other countries coming to Canada. Why? It is because they want to have a relationship with our children. Canada is one of the most lenient countries and the age of consent is one of the lowest, which is why we have a child pornography problem and why our children are being abused.

When will we protect our children? When will the government get serious? The hon. member for Fleetwood—Port Kells is right on the mark and we need to listen to her.

Age of ConsentPrivate Members' Business

7:20 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

The time provided for the consideration of private members' business is now expired and the order is dropped to the bottom of the order of precedence on the Order Paper.

A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to have been moved.

Age of ConsentAdjournment Proceedings

7:20 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Kamp Conservative Dewdney—Alouette, BC

Mr. Speaker, on March 23 and again on March 24, I asked the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans about his plans to ensure the survival of the Fraser River sockeye and, in particular, whether he was going to implement the recommendations contained in the recent report of the standing committee. I appreciate the opportunity to follow up on those matters.

Let me begin by reminding the minister that the second report of the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans tabled on March 22 of this year requested a written response within 60 days indicating his intention with respect to the unanimous recommendations. The final paragraph of that report read:

If such a commitment is not forthcoming, or if it appears that in spite of a commitment, no serious attempt is being made to implement the recommendations, the committee will use all possible means to convince the Government of Canada to conduct a judicial inquiry into the Fraser River sockeye fishery, and that the focus of this inquiry be on enforcement and other issues relating to how the fishery was managed in 2004.

I know the minister will appreciate my reminding him that as of May 21, those 60 days will have come and gone and that so far we have not seen a response. Let me say that this lack of response inspires no confidence that there will be adequate enforcement in the 2005 Fraser River sockeye fishery.

The minister has been questioned repeatedly in the 60 days, not only in regard to the recommendations of the standing committee but also on those of the 2004 post season review by former B.C. chief justice, Bryan Williams. Both reports highlighted the need for increased enforcement.

In response, the minister has made promises of reform and spoken of forthcoming changes. He has even released his so-called blueprint to move forward with changes to the Pacific fishery but has yet to validate any of the 12 specific recommendations of this committee.

A quick look is all that is needed to see that the minister's April 14 blueprint is large on generalities and very short on details, but on the subject of enforcement, the minister sounds quite decisive. In the minister's speech that day he promised:

...let me be clear, I am committed to taking steps to improve compliance levels and strengthen enforcement in the region this season.

However, contrary to that statement, the only plans that have been announced for this season call for a reduction in enforcement officers in the Pacific region. Internal DFO documents reveal that a decrease in regional enforcement officers is in the works, beginning with six this year, nine the following year and six in the third year.

DFO managers have talked about there being more officers on the Fraser River this summer, but how can this be? Where will they come from? They say that they will move officers from other parts of the region, but how is this possible? In light of the announced reductions, is that not just robbing Peter to pay Paul, as popular a concept as that may be these days?

While the minister's blueprint mentions reform in a number of contexts, virtually no policy changes were announced for 2005 and it is far too late for them to be announced for this season. It is also too late for education or any other model of enforcement that is proactive or based on compliance to affect this season's sockeye.

The only thing that 2005 Fraser River sockeye can ask the minister for at this late stage is an increase in enforcement.

Will the minister finally admit that he could have done much more to alleviate the collapse of the 2004 season and will he act immediately to increase enforcement for the 2005 season in order to prevent a repeat of that catastrophe? Or, will it take a judicial inquiry and another lost season in order for that to occur?

Age of ConsentAdjournment Proceedings

7:20 p.m.

Charlottetown P.E.I.

Liberal

Shawn Murphy LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans

Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, I appreciate the opportunity to say a few words on what I consider to be a very important issue. I also appreciate the member's concern for the future of the Pacific salmon. It is a concern that the minister and I share wholeheartedly.

In fact the member and I had the opportunity last December to travel to British Columbia. We spent three days in Vancouver hearing witnesses on this issue, in particular the collapse of the Fraser River salmon run during 2004. We heard from the many stakeholders involved. I certainly do not want to understate the seriousness of the situation. It is a very serious situation.

The committee came back to Ottawa and we spent quite a bit of time, probably 12 to 14 meetings, preparing a unanimous report. As the member stated, that has been in the minister's hands for close to a couple of months. I know that the minister appreciates the effort that went into the report and that he does value the advice of the committee. I am sure the member opposite joins me in looking forward to seeing how the minister and the department address our recommendations, which I repeat were unanimous.

I am pleased to report that the minister and the department are working on a number of fronts to address this situation and have been doing so for quite some time. As the member has quite rightly pointed out, a repeat of this situation will not be tolerated at all. This is a top priority with the department and with the minister. He has visited British Columbia seven or eight times in the last year and a half. He has certainly taken this issue as a number one priority.

On December 17 he did release the wild salmon policy. That policy is an accumulation of years of scientific research and broad consultations with the stakeholders, including the first nations, the public and commercial fishers. It provides a conservation based framework of concrete actions to restore and maintain healthy and diverse salmon populations in the years to come. Further consultations are ongoing. The final document ought to be released by May 31 of this year. It will report on a number of issues.

Our committee report is not the only report that was involved in this. There was the Pierce-McRae report, but perhaps most important, since our report was tabled in this House, we had the report of Mr. Justice Bryan Williams. He also heard extensive evidence on the whole issue. I will not go into detail but he basically made the same recommendations that we made. There is a lot of paper written on this issue and hopefully the issue will be addressed this year.

Again I want to state that this is not a simple problem and there is no one simple answer. There were a number of factors involved in the problems with the 2004 run, such as poor environmental conditions, warm water, concerns about unauthorized harvest. Again there is another concern about the accuracy of some of the reporting methodologies. These are issues that are being looked at.

I believe we are going to see some changes this summer following the policy that is to be released. The number of initiatives and reports currently in the works are giving the minister and DFO much food for thought in determining how west coast fishers can move forward in the future. My learned friend is wrong. There is--

Age of ConsentAdjournment Proceedings

7:25 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

The hon. member for Pitt Meadows--Maple Ridge--Mission.