House of Commons Hansard #115 of the 38th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was parents.

Topics

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4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Dean Allison Conservative Niagara West—Glanbrook, ON

Mr. Speaker, when we look at rural ridings or ridings that do not have access to major centres, there still needs to be choice and I do not believe that one size fits all for everyone.

We understand there is a day care system in place and that is great, that is fine. People need those as options. What we have been talking about is one size does not fit all. The member mentioned that there are different options in Quebec. We are proposing the different options, but we should still allow options for families. There are family members who want to look after their kids. We should not deny them that right and that opportunity. They should not be forced into another system.

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4:45 p.m.

Ahuntsic Québec

Liberal

Eleni Bakopanos LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Social Development (Social Economy)

Mr. Speaker, investing in children and families is one of the best ways to improve Canada's social and economic fabric.

The Government of Canada knows that, and this is why it has developed a national early learning and child care strategy that will meet the needs of our families and their children.

Because each family is unique, our strategy provides a real choice that respects the various priorities and circumstances of Canadian families.

The motion before us suggests that the government's plan to support early learning and child care in Canada somehow creates a two tier system, which is a myth created by the other side.

The member for Edmonton--Spruce Grove believes that the federal government's approach to child care and early learning ignores the unique characteristics and challenges of each province with respect to families. The member contends that the federal government is somehow discriminating against certain types of families. Before I address these misconceptions, I would like to put the early learning and child care framework into context.

Over the past few years, the Government of Canada has taken action on several fronts to support families and children. I am still waiting for an answer from the other side as to what exactly the Conservatives are going to do to support families and children and keep their fiscally responsible attitude.

Low income families need more support. In fact the Government of Canada has already introduced the Canada child tax benefit and the national child benefit supplement. This is helping more than 3.5 million low income families with the cost of raising their children. This will rise to $10 billion. The Government of Canada has also added a child rearing dropout provision to the Canada pension plan. This ensures parents who take time out from full time work to raise their young children do not experience reduced pensions later in life.

Furthermore, families who are raising a child with disabilities face extra costs. For that reason the Government of Canada has introduced measures such as the new child disability benefit and other tax based initiatives.

Working with the provinces and territories, the Government of Canada is also helping to improve and expand a range of early childhood development programs. In addition, it is expanding the Understanding the Early Years initiative to at least 100 more communities across the country. This will help provide communities with the information they need to ensure their children are ready to learn when they start their education.

All these programs are important, because they validate the critical role that parents play with their children. Contrary to what members opposite are claiming, we do value the role that parents play with their young children.

Despite all the benefits provided by these initiatives and incentives, we must do more for families and children. We must also recognize that the needs of families and their children continue to evolve.

Canadian mothers have traditionally played an essential role in terms of meeting the emotional and intellectual needs of their young children, and they continue to do so. However, the fact is that, today, in Canada, seven women out of ten who have preschool age children are members of the workforce. In other words, there are 1.4 million children under the age of six whose mothers work outside the home. Yet, we have regulated child care spaces for less than 20% of them.

I think it is very important to take these numbers into consideration, but the other side is not doing that.

Canada must do more. Studies clearly indicate that early learning programs are essential for children to achieve success. Not only do they facilitate children's emotional and intellectual development, but they also enable many parents to work if they choose to do so.

I want to emphasize this point. Many low income families struggle to make ends meet because they only have one income. Providing families with better and more affordable child care options will give parents, who choose greater flexibility and opportunities, to find and keep work which will in turn help raise their standard of living.

There are other economic arguments that are worth mentioning. I think certain members in the House have mentioned them during today's debate. When a family does not have adequate child care, parents must often leave work early or arrive late to care for their child. In addition to creating stress in the parents' lives, lack of adequate child care also undermines the productivity of their employers.

Small wonder the research shows investing in services for young children and their families, including children in middle income families, generates impressive dividends. For every dollar invested our income gains between at least $2 through increased tax revenues and decreased social, education and health costs. This point has been debated today.

For all these social and economic reasons, we must invest in early learning and child care. In doing so, we will be meeting the needs of Canadians who have clearly expressed their views on this issue. Ninety percent of Canadians believe that the primary role of child care is to promote development. Ninety percent agree that the federal government must help the provinces and territories provide affordable, quality child care.

The Government of Canada is responding to the concerns of Canadians. In 2003, the federal, provincial and territorial governments signed an agreement on early learning and child care. Over five years, the Government of Canada will transfer more than $1 billion to the provinces and territories to help them improve and expand their programs and services in this crucial area. Down the road, this will represent over $350 million a year.

However, even this significant investment is not enough. Our children's future requires a more comprehensive approach. This is why, in the October 2004 throne speech, the Government of Canada made a commitment to work with the provinces and territories to put in place a national early learning and child care program. The federal government confirmed, in its 2005 budget, that it will invest $5 billion more over five years in this initiative.

Over the past several months the Minister of Social Development has been working with his provincial and territorial counterparts to develop a national vision for this national system based on four key principles: quality, universal inclusiveness, accessibility and developmental.

These agreements in principle will set out the overarching national vision, principles and goals for early learning and child care. Clear and measurable objectives, eligible areas for investment and funding levels, strong accountability measures, a commitment to work together and to share knowledge and best practices, and a provincial and territorial commitment to develop an action plan for the new funding in consultation with citizens and stakeholders by December of this year.

In recent weeks the minister has signed such agreements in principle with his counterparts in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Ontario, Newfoundland and Labrador and Nova Scotia to help these provinces develop quality early learning and child care. The minister believes we will finalize similar agreements with other provinces and territories soon.

I want to repeat what the minister said in the House. He said that for British Columbia it will be a 105% increase, for Alberta it will be a 121% increase , for Saskatchewan it will be a 95% increase, for New Brunswick it ill be a 132% increase and for Nova Scotia it will be a 90% increase. I could go on and talk about how many more spaces will increase because of the initiative of the federal government.

The enthusiasm shown by the five participating provinces for this national initiative speaks volumes. But for no obvious reason, the hon. member for Edmonton—Spruce Grove and her party believe that, with this system, the Government of Canada is imposing its will on the provinces and territories.

The motion before us accuses the government of ignoring the unique needs of the various provinces and territories in terms of child care. It is suggesting that the government is discriminating against low income families and shift workers.

Allow me to correct these misrepresentations made by the party opposite.

The Government of Canada recognizes that early learning and child care within each province and territory is at a different stage of development. Each jurisdiction has varying needs and circumstances. That is why these agreements in principle give provincial and territorial governments the flexibility to enhance early learning and child care as they see fit.

Our national framework recognizes that the provinces and territories rely on a mix of profit and non-profit regulated services. It allows them to continue to define their own priorities so long as their choices meet the so-called QUAD principles: quality, universally inclusive, accessible and developmental.

The government is not trying to impose a single mentality on its partners. On the contrary, the national framework, which puts emphasis on choice, recognizes that each province and territory has unique needs and priorities. Contrary to what the motion before us states, the government does take into account that each province is unique and faces different challenges.

Furthermore, the government does not discriminate against any families. With this national framework, there will be programs and services to respond to the various needs and choices of families with young children, whether they live in rural or urban settings, and whether they need child care services from 9 to 5 or from 5 to 9. This flexibility exists; it is up to the provinces to decide.

The new initiative will include a variety of support measures for regulated care centres, nursery schools, child welfare services and preschools. This initiative is already very advanced in my province, in Quebec.

These programs will be suited to the unique needs of rural and urban communities. This will mean more part-time spaces, flexible hours for parents who work shifts, assistance for low income families and programs that meet various cultural or linguistic needs.

In fact, I had the opportunity of attending the opening of a day care centre in my riding of Ahuntsic, with the Minister of Social Development. The children will come from all the cultural communities, and the educators speak a number of languages. I had this experience myself with my youngest, who attended a Greek community day care in Montreal, where the children learn three languages: French, Greek and English.

Again, the federal government is not pitting one type of family against another and it is not that one vision of a family is better than another. We on this side believe there are various types of families and they each have the right to choose, as the hon. members on the other side have said, and we are giving them the real choice.

On the contrary, the government has developed a framework for child care and early learning that respects the unique characteristics of the Canadian family in all its many forms.

Let me give two examples that illustrate how the agreement allows provinces to meet the particular needs of their own communities.

I must repeat that hon. members on the other side have said that they will respect the agreements in principle. Now that an agreement in principle is in place, Ontario is moving forward with its best start plan, which emphasizes children's readiness to learn. It will expand programs for children in junior and senior kindergarten throughout the province. This will ultimately provide a full day of early learning and care experiences at an affordable cost.

For its part, Manitoba will make investments to improve the quality, accessibility and affordability of early learning and child care. This will take the form of increasing the number of child care spaces, enhancing subsidies and improving wages and training opportunities for child care workers.

The Government of Canada did not impose these priorities on Ontario or on Manitoba. The provinces developed their own priorities within the agreement in principle that will meet the needs of families and their respective communities. This is exactly how other agreements in principle will operate: on the basis of mutual respect and cooperation, and with the best interests of our families and children in mind.

I would like to end on a personal note. As I said earlier, as the mother of two children, I understand the challenges of parenting and the competing demands of a professional life and home life. My children were one and a half and three and a half when I arrived here. I also appreciate the desire of every parent to want the best for their children. I did and I am sure every single member in the House does also.

I am convinced that the Government of Canada's strategy in early learning and child care is a good thing for our country. I believe that it taps into the desire of all levels of government to do their best for Canadian families without losing sight of the fact that it is the parents in the end who decide how they want to raise their children. I repeat—or maybe I should say it in English—the parents decide how they want to raise their children. We have always respected that, despite what the opposition says.

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5 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

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5 p.m.

Liberal

Eleni Bakopanos Liberal Ahuntsic, QC

They are good at criticizing, but not listening.

That is what has to be remembered—the concept of choice. That is the difference. Our national framework on early learning and child care gives the provinces and territories the opportunity to choose how to assume their responsibilities to parents and children. It gives parents greater flexibility and more options in the ways they provide emotional and intellectual stimulation for their children.

For all those reasons I cannot support the motion tabled by the hon. member for Edmonton—Spruce Grove. She is not providing a real choice, as I said in my remarks. There is no question that a truly effective system of early learning and child care for every province and territory will not happen overnight. We have accepted that. It will take time and a sustained commitment to develop but I believe that the national framework for early learning and child care provides a solid foundation for this to happen. That is what we are looking at and that is why the minister keeps referring to the way we set up both the health care system and the education system in Canada.

The Government of Canada, the provinces, the territories and Canadian families share a vision. It is a vision, not a tax cut that we are providing and a common desire to help meet the needs of our families and children. I invite opposition members to join us in making this vision a reality for all Canadians.

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5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Scheer Conservative Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

Madam Speaker, I hear a little bit of contradiction going on. First, we heard members from the parties on the other side of the House say that they have not heard any criticism of their plan from any group or concerned Canadians.

There are thousands of parents and dozens of groups that are adamantly opposed to this one size fits all approach. The difference is that they are being very vocal about it but the government is ignoring them. Unless a group is a government funded child advocacy group, unless one is a bureaucrat or a Liberal special interest group, funding will not be available from the government nor will it listen.

I believe the member talked about 1.4 million Canadians in the country. We heard the minister in question period today say that it would cost $8,000 per child for a year's worth of babysitting. Here we have, by accident, revealed the real hidden cost for Canadian taxpayers, which is that it will cost about $11 billion to fully implement the Liberal babysitting program.

Could the member tell us whether this amount has been verified by the minister or is she going to contradict her own minister on the actual total cost for that program?

I have a final question for the member. Why does she want parents paying twice? Parents who do not choose this one size fits all approach, who want to either forgo some income and stay at home with their child or use a relative, why should they have to pay day care twice, once for the choice that they believe is best for their family and once for the Liberals' big government scheme?

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5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Eleni Bakopanos Liberal Ahuntsic, QC

Madam Speaker, I would remind the hon. member that we are not talking about a babysitting service. The Conservatives keep talking about a babysitting service but we are actually talking about a national early learning and child care system. They keep denying that they always call it babysitting. They are talking about babysitting in very many ways but we are not going to go there.

As far as the cost goes, we have put on the table, with the provinces, $5 billion and we are putting it on the table by keeping our fiscal obligations to Canadians, something which the other side, after various questions today, did not answer. How will they keep a balanced budget? We have had eight consecutive balanced budgets and we still are able to put $5 billion down for an early learning and child care system.

As far as choice goes, I think in my remarks I said that there were families who receive certain tax benefits. I do not have the time now to repeat them because I think there are other questions members want to ask but let us not forget the national tax child benefit that is in fact income tested, something they will not do when they give out tax break to families. It helps low income families.

I have in fact listened to all the groups. I have listened to them locally in my own riding. The reality is, and we can debate the statistics, but the majority, now 72% if not higher, of two working parent families are looking forward to an early learning and child care system so they can take advantage of a system that in the province of Quebec costs $7.

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5:05 p.m.

NDP

Alexa McDonough NDP Halifax, NS

Madam Speaker, I want to thank the member for Ahuntsic for dispelling some of the myths that keep being perpetrated by the Conservative members. If I thought they were as ignorant of the facts as their rhetoric suggests, then I would be forced to conclude that there are huge numbers of people out there in a total panic about what it is the government has in mind.

However, it is very important that the member for Ahuntsic has dispelled some of the myths and made it clear that the government's program is about choice. We are not just talking about a conceptual level. We are now talking about five agreements that have been entered into. That means there are eight more to go, one hopes, between the federal government and provinces. They will spell out that there is no thought about one size fits all. It is preposterous to keep making that claim, as we have heard here this afternoon again from the Conservative benches. This is a series of state operated child care centres. The Conservatives also use the word babysitting besides, which is really quite telling.

The member for Ahuntsic has said, and I know this to be true, that she is a working parent. She remained in the home at one time with pre-school children, worked outside the home with her children cared for in home by grandparents, and worked outside the home with children in child care centres. It is those kinds of options that in fact are available.

When we made those choices, those of us who are over the age of 40, there was no child tax benefit program and no parental leave. The options are increasing and to pretend that is not the case is simply ridiculous.

My question for the member relates to what I think is a regrettable omission on the government's part, and that is to specify that this is going to be operated on a not for profit basis. The universality is about the inclusion of children of varying needs with all types of requirements, but it is also meant to be universal so that it would be available to every child in order to ensure the best use of the available resources that go into non profit.

The question arises about what happens to those who are operating now on a commercial child care basis. I think for those that are community based and have some parental board involvement, it is very important to make a transition in order to operate on a not for profit basis.

However, I wonder if the member could address what is felt by a lot of people to be an unfortunate shortcoming and shortsighted aspect of this program that can yet be remedied.

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5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Eleni Bakopanos Liberal Ahuntsic, QC

Madam Speaker, we stated that these agreements are agreements with the provinces. The provinces will be administering these programs and we are putting the money down. When we are talking about the for profit sector, we are talking about regulated child care.

If I were to use my home province of Quebec as an example, the profit and the non profit exist side by side, but they are regulated, The underlying principles are respected in the province of Quebec. The bottom line, if I may say so to the hon. member, is that there is universality, accessibility, and inclusiveness. That is what we are looking for in terms of establishing a national system of early learning and child care.

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5:10 p.m.

Peterborough Ontario

Liberal

Peter Adams LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development

Madam Speaker, I, too, was amazed at the remarks about day care and babysitting. I have been in this House a long time and it is extraordinary that such views are still held here, given the changes in the nature of our society in the last 20 years. As the member said, over 70% of the families now have two parents working.

Had members of the opposition been here in the 19th century, soon after Confederation, when this place and similar places like it across the country were debating whether education should be compulsory and debating the cost of a few years of elementary school education, they would have probably argued against it. Then later when people were debating in this place and others whether high school education should become universal or whether it should be an option and that some parents should go one place and some kids should go nowhere, these same members would have been arguing against a Canada-wide system just as they are doing now.

Society has changed and we are trying to react to it, just as it did in those years long ago when elementary school education, high school education and later on post-secondary education were being introduced. Does my colleague not think that the Government of Canada should take the lead on these matters?

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5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Eleni Bakopanos Liberal Ahuntsic, QC

Madam Speaker, the brief answer is yes. However, I also want to commend the hon. member because I know how many years he and I and others on this side of the House have actually worked toward arriving to today to have a national early learning and child care system. Let us not forget our agreements with the provinces prior to these agreements in terms of early learning and child care.

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5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Lynne Yelich Conservative Blackstrap, SK

Madam Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the member for Fundy Royal.

The Prime Minister recently suggested that the new national child care program will help to define us as Canadians. As a result, should we not take great care to ensure that the program reflects the values of Canadians, that it actually works for Canadians?

Unfortunately, the national child care program being proposed by the federal government is deeply flawed. We all understand the reality facing hard working Canadian families today. Unlike previous generations who had the option of having one parent stay home with a child, the majority of families either by necessity or choice have both parents working full time. As a result, these families face child care challenges that were not an issue for those previous generations.

How the state will respond to this new reality has been an issue of considerable debate. However, one aspect that should not be up for debate is the issue of choice. We must ensure that parents have choices and options in determining the best child care for their child.

I am happy to state that the Conservative Party supports freedom of choice for parents on child care. Our party realizes that parents, not the federal government, are in the best position to decide how to care for and educate their children.

Regrettably, that is not the position of the federal government. The Liberal plan for child care is a one size fits all bureaucratic model with little to no knowledge of the different needs of working families across this vast country. There is no acknowledgement of the needs of rural communities, shift workers or stay at home parents.

Will working families living in rural communities, like the towns in my constituency of Blackstrap, Outlook or Viscount, have the same access to the national child care program as those in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal. We know the answer to that.

The Liberal Party's vision for child care is designed primarily for urban centres and will generally exclude families living in rural Canada where no day care facilities exist even though their hard earned tax dollars will fund the program.

How will shift workers benefit from a national child care program? The Liberal plan is centred on outdated notions of a 9 to 5 work day, increasingly at odds with the realities of the modern workplace. Political commentator Paula Simons stated that if we work evenings, weekends or early mornings, if we work long hours or odd shifts, day care is not a viable option. She said that in our 24/7 corporate culture, where at least 30% of Canadians do shift work, that means day care, no matter how cheap we make it, no matter how many spaces we create, can never be a universal solution.

How will the Liberal child care program help these Canadians? We know the answer to that too. It will not. What about a family where one parent has decided to stay at home with the child? What message is the federal government sending to these families when it says that it is going to spend public money to support child care in Canada, but the parents of that child will not qualify because they chose to stay at home? They made the wrong choice.

It is demeaning and insulting to the 47% of families with children between six months and five years who have at least one stay at home parent according to a Statistics Canada study.

In fact, I asked some of the more zealous advocates of a national child care program to be a little more sensitive when speaking about the deeply personal choices stay at home parents have made. For instance, the member for Beaches—East York, speaking in the House on a prior occasion, suggested that stay at home parents were merely capable of providing lesser child minding and not true child care for their children.

For those families who have sacrificed a few of life's luxuries and indeed even necessities to spend time with their own child in those precious early years, it is a little deeper than simple child minding.

I am not sure how someone cannot see why a mother of her first child would think that her child would be better served bonding with her than spending time with a child psychologist or a child development worker. I understand and indeed most Canadians also do too. According to the Vanier Institute family study, 9 out of 10 Canadians feel that in a two parent situation, ideally one parent should stay home to raise the children.

Yet, stay at home parents, along with those in rural Canada and shift workers, who will not have access to the Liberal day care plan by choice, opportunity or necessity, will subsidize this program. What is the government member's response to this? A shrug of the shoulders. According to the Minister of Social Development, this is all to be expected because we really do not know and in fact, we do not need to know because the future is going to be decided.

Canada's national child care system which, according to the Prime Minister, will define this country will never truly meet the needs of all Canadians as presently constructed. That much we do know.

Another troubling aspect of the Liberal approach is the manner in which the federal government has reacted to provinces that have a different concept of child care. Some provinces have suggested that they do not want to focus exclusively on institutional child care.

For instance, when New Brunswick Premier Bernard Lord suggested that his province may utilize portions of the federal child care funding to provide enough support to make a difference to stay at home parents to provide for their children, the Minister of Social Development threatened that New Brunswick would never see any child care funding unless these alleged hardline demands were abandoned. He said that if that is an area of priority for that province, then that is an area it can act on in its own way.

Maybe the Minister of Social Development should discuss his concept of federalism with the Minister of Transport. When the member for Outremont followed the announcement of a newly improved parental leave program for his home province, allowing Quebec to run the program in a manner which it deemed best for its citizens, he said that it showed that we can be flexible and that there was no need to have a wall to wall solution.

Why is the national child care program any different? Why does the concept of federalism, as stated clearly by the minister's colleague, not extend to child care options for provinces like New Brunswick? Why does he not want a wall to wall solution imposed on the provinces? I strongly urge the Minister of Social Development to heed the advice of the member for Outremont and be more flexible in recognizing the fact that each province is unique and faces different challenges in assisting the child care needs of working families.

According to a Statistics Canada report, the percentage of Canadian children cared for nationally in day care centres is 25%, while 34% are cared for by a non-relative, like a babysitter or a nanny. However, those numbers are dramatically different in my home province of Saskatchewan, where 54% of children are cared for by a non-relative and only 10% are cared for in day care centres. To simply impose upon Saskatchewan, or any province, a program that is not flexible and adaptable to its own special circumstances will not result in the intended consequences.

Different provinces have different child care needs. Different Canadians have different child care needs. There is no one size fits all wall to wall solution. Consequently, when we discuss child care, we need to broaden our scope beyond the realm of institutionalized child care and seek approaches to give working families more choices, not fewer.

That is why I believe the Conservative Party's proposal is the right direction. It puts freedom in the hands of working families with direct cash subsidies and allows them the choice of formal child care, day homes, relatives, nannies or stay at home parenting.

Depending on what they believe is the right choice for their particular circumstance, there is nothing more personal than the choice families make about the care of their child. Should we not ensure that the choices available are not restricted for Canadian families?

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5:25 p.m.

Peterborough Ontario

Liberal

Peter Adams LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development

Madam Speaker, I keep hearing the expression “one size fits all”. I am not sure what my colleague or her colleagues mean by this.

We are in a Confederation which, goodness knows, is a long way from Ottawa dictating to anybody. We are in a field of public policy where we are negotiating agreements with different provinces. Each of those provinces has its own individuality, its own economy, its own culture, and its own sociology. The same goes for the three territories. They are all very different. We are negotiating all these different agreements with them, so where is this one size fits all thing? What is it that we are actually talking about?

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5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Lynne Yelich Conservative Blackstrap, SK

Madam Speaker, the best way to help the member understand this is to compare it with our school systems. We have such a variation of types of schools. We have home schooling, Catholic schools, public schools, Christian schools, hockey schools, et cetera. Some have uniforms and some do not. They try to apply universality of good quality education and accessibility. The provinces do try to fund them, they find out they cannot. Therefore, they close the rural schools and try to fund the schools in the bigger centres. Then we have the rural kids having to be bused to the schools.

I am curious as to how it would work with universal child care. I can see the way our school system is being handled by our provincial counterparts. They do a very poor job.

The universal health care system is supposed to be accessible and universal, and I do not see that working very well either. I do not know how the government will do with a national child care program.

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5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON

Madam Speaker, child care and early learning advocates place the cost of fully implementing the national child care plan at somewhere between $10 billion and $12 billion per year. I know this because I sat with the Windsor and District Labour Council recently. The Canadian Auto Workers plan is a minimum $10 billion per year.

The Minister of Social Development, however, has embarked on a plan concealing the true cost to Canadian families who will pay the taxes to support the fully implemented plan. He is only offering $1 billion per year or what he calls a drop in the bucket.

This is a $9 billion to $11 billion per year black hole over five years. There is a shortfall of $45 billion to $55 billion, a cost that will be borne down the road by taxpayers when the government decides to spring the full plan on taxpayers.

How will a hidden cost of that magnitude be covered? Will it be covered by higher taxes, fewer programs and cutting spending in other areas or will the government have to borrow the money and drive us back into deficit to do it?

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5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Lynne Yelich Conservative Blackstrap, SK

Madam Speaker, that is a very good question. Our province usually cuts programs. As I said, hospitals and schools are closed, all the things that are very important and close to the citizens. This is how governments usually fund programs.

I do not see how this is possible or affordable, watching the circumstance in Quebec right now. It will be very interesting to find out how it will handle its program right now. Child care workers will possibly go on strike because of pay equity differences, so then there are even more phenomenal and unseen costs. I am sure the government has not factored in any of the labour issues yet.

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5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy, NB

Madam Speaker, it is a privilege to rise today on behalf of my constituents from Fundy Royal to speak to a very important issue. At this time I would like to commend the member for Edmonton—Spruce Grove. She has shown tremendous leadership on this file in offering what is a great, inclusive and encompassing alternative to what is a pretty draconian and invasive approach offered up by the Liberals and which will set us back quite a bit.

The Liberals have approached this issue with a big brother knows best kind of thinking. It is an idea that is fundamentally unfair to Canadians from coast to coast. It ignores parents who should be free, irrespective of any government interference, to make their own choices on how they raise their children. That would be pretty self-evident. Nowhere is more evident what parents would prefer, which is to be treated equally and for the government not to pick winners and losers in child care, than in my home province of New Brunswick right now.

As members know, negotiations have taken place and deals have been struck on child care, province by province. My province had some ideas. One was to treat all parents equally. That is an idea I support.

Many parents in my riding of Fundy Royal live in the rural parts of the riding. Parents leave for work in the morning or maybe in the evening on a night shift. They do not work nine to five necessarily. Some of them take their children to day care. Others take them to a trusted friend, someone who cares for children in their own home. Others perhaps take them to a private day care centre or perhaps one parent will stay at home with their children.

All those are legitimate choices that parents make. All those decisions are made. In New Brunswick, 33% of the parents stay at home with their children in the early years. About 35% place their children in someone else's home, a non-relative or a relative. Just over 20% of parents have their children in day care. There is a diversity of approaches that is consistent with our country. We live in a diverse country and I live in a diverse province. There are diverse approaches to how parents deal with child care.

However, the Minister of Social Development is proposing a system that only certain parents get to take advantage of, a system that penalizes those who choose to stay at home with their children, or who choose to have a grandparent or a friend care for their pre-school children. That is fundamentally unfair on many levels.

For one, imagine a scenario in my riding where one of the parents works an evening shift and does not have child care available, so they have a sitter. Maybe they make a meagre income. They are paying high taxes like the rest of us and they also are paying for someone to watch their children. Now we are asking them to pay to watch other people's children. That is the minister's system. Instead of benefiting all Canadians equally, we are picking winners and we are picking losers.

Last month the Prime Minister jumped ahead of the gun a bit. He was planning to fly into Saint John for a photo op. Officials in New Brunswick said simply that they wanted the ability to steer some of this money toward families who chose other ways of dealing with child care.

The minister's response to this was completely arrogant and completely out of touch. It illustrates big brother knows best. It illustrates all the reasons why people do not want this kind of program, the idea of some bureaucrat in Ottawa deciding how we in New Brunswick will raise our children. He said, “New Brunswick would never see any of its funding until it backed off its demands”. What were its demands? That all parents would be treated equally.

It varies from province to province, but in my province it means ignoring the child care choices of 80% of the parents. Is this any way to deal with federal-provincial relations? I do not think so. To bait provinces and then strong-arm them into conforming with the Minister of Social Development's utopian idea of what child care should be in our country will not work.

I guess in his way of thinking we need a child care program of ever expanding size. He will not contemplate what it will ever cost. It is one size fits all and it is a giant nanny state approach to child care.

The minister of family and community services for my home province of New Brunswick stated this. I think it is pretty telling in this debate. He said:

What works for daycare in downtown Toronto is not necessarily what will work in rural New Brunswick. That is why we need to ensure that agreement is flexible enough to meet the needs of New Brunswickers.

I agree with him 100%. Why would we not seek that flexibility?

As I mentioned, it results in a doubling of the burden on parents who choose other alternatives for child care. They have to pay twice and that is unfair. Middle class and poor working Canadians may be subsidizing families that have a much higher income. I fail to see how that is fair or equitable or desirable in our country.

Quebec has made its choice. New Brunswick has a choice. Every province has its own choice. Right now we know there is the potential in Quebec of a strike by child care workers. The minister today in question period said that the Quebec model was his inspiration. There are inherent dangers in a model where there is the potential, because of labour unrest, that families do not receive child care.

These ideas sometimes sound good. The minister says that it is $5 billion, and the government will provide child care without looking at the details. It reminds me of something we are going to be voting on tonight.

Tonight we will vote on funding on the firearms registry. Ten years ago another minister, eager to implement his utopian vision on the country, said “This program will cost $2 million”. We know tonight that we will vote on $64 million just to augment this fiscal year. They are 1,000 times over budget on that program.

If Canadians are a little concerned or I am a little skeptical about the Liberal math that says this will somehow to be achieved with $5 billion, we can see why history would tell us that we may want to take a second look at what the minister is saying.

I have every reason to believe that this Liberal plan will unduly and unfairly tax Canadians and certainly parents. It will result in a blow to bureaucracy that does not serve the interest of Canadian families.

This is in stark contrast to the approach advocated by the Conservative Party. We would treat families equally. We would respect the jurisdiction of provinces. We would respect that different families and parents make different choices on how they will care for their children. In a recent survey, we know parents indicated that institutionalized day care was their last choice.

I ask members to consider the situation in New Brunswick, to consider all families and not just some of them. I ask them to respect Canadians' choices for child care and respect the rights of parents to raise their children as they see fit.

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5:35 p.m.

Peterborough Ontario

Liberal

Peter Adams LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development

Madam Speaker, I listened very carefully to what my colleague had to say when he was talking about child care choices in New Brunswick. I think he said that 68% of parents have some form of child care. I think that later he increased that to 80%, but I may have missed it. He said that these are the choices of the people of New Brunswick. He gave some figures, saying that said 20% were doing one thing, 30% were doing another and 40% were doing something else.

I suggest to him that those are not actually the choices of the people of New Brunswick but simply what the people of New Brunswick are doing now. Some of them have the ability to choose to have sophisticated quality child care outside their home, and some choose to have sophisticated quality child care in the home. That is because they actually have the money, but other people cannot do that.

There are people who would choose those options if they had the money. Instead, they ask a relative or someone else to look after the children while they are working. By the way, I understand it. I have been through some of these things myself. They do not pick that. They need the choice. They need to be able to make the choice. They need to be able to say yes, they can have quality child care for their children, or they can decide not to.

The member talks about choice and this potential strike in Quebec. There are strikes and the risk of strikes in our elementary and high school systems all the time. Apart from a very small percentage of people, it does not mean that people opt to take their children out of the schools. It does not mean that at all.

There is a percentage who have the choice of home schooling, and I agree with it. They espouse and love home schooling. These are families who agree to educate their own children, still in the present day, but the vast majority of people support the public school systems across this country.

I suggest to the member that he ask the people he quoted who do not have quality child care about this. If he were to ask them if they would like quality child care associated with the elementary school down the road, for example, for their children every day when both parents go to work, they would all say yes.

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5:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy, NB

Madam Speaker, this is the kind of thinking that concerns people. This is promoting another boondoggle.

As for “sophisticated quality”, what is that supposed to mean? We are talking about preschool children. Does that mean that if two year olds are cared for by their grandparents it does not pass the member's litmus test of sophisticated quality? Does it suggest that if a parent decides that “for a couple of years I choose to stay with my child” it is not sophisticated? Is that perhaps not sophisticated enough for the minister? The minister clearly feels he knows best and that all children have to be raised, through the minister, by these bureaucrats throughout the country.

I agree that parents need more resources. That is why my party would give all parents more resources and not leave them with some conclusion predetermined by the minister. We would give them the choice. We would give them the resources to make their own choices in child care. That is fair and equitable.

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5:40 p.m.

Conservative

Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

Madam Speaker, I was very interested in the comments by my friend and the previous speaker about the percentages, with New Brunswick being rural and very similar to my home province of Saskatchewan, and in the comments about the problems they have.

I have friends who, as I did, grew up on farms. The children are an integral part of the farm. One cannot separate family from farm.

I know that the situation is similar in New Brunswick. I believe that the hon. member has in his riding the majority of dairy farms in New Brunswick. I am very interested to hear how he would express the concerns of his constituents, in that the separation of family and taking children back and forth would disrupt the labour and pattern of the family farm. The work of the farm is very important. I would ask my hon. friend about how forcing families to make choices not of their own will by forcing their children into day care would disrupt the life of rural Canada.

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5:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy, NB

Madam Speaker, the member raises a great point when he says that this is an idea with maybe more of an urban twist to it than a rural twist. Let us recognize, for instance, that half of the population in New Brunswick is in rural areas.

The member is right. There are vast numbers of Canadians with different ways of doing things, which the minister refuses to acknowledge. The member has raised a legitimate example. We have to give all parents that choice by empowering them with the resources to make their own child care decisions. This is certainly a good example of one way in which our system would be much more helpful than what the minister is offering, which is a one size fits all system.

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5:45 p.m.

Bloc

Nicole Demers Bloc Laval, QC

Madam Speaker, I will start by saying that I am somewhat surprised at the Conservative motion. Having reiterated the importance of respecting provincial and territorial jurisdictions, they are presenting a motion that goes in the opposite direction.

Speaking of convictions, we in the Bloc Québécois are absolutely convinced that provincial and territorial jurisdictions must be respected. The convictions of the Conservative Party are perhaps a bit more recent and a bit less deeply rooted. Perhaps the Conservatives have not grasped certain things fully.

The Conservative Party accepts a double dependency on the central government. Moreover, we have seen that in past weeks with its motion on the comprehensive national strategy on mental illness, mental health and heart disease. We then had a good idea of how disengaged from reality the Conservatives were. Once again this would have been encroachment on provincial jurisdiction, in this case health.

Although the Conservatives did succeed in getting one more motion through, with almost all parties voting in favour of it, the Bloc Québécois being the exception of course, they realized that their motion was absolutely pointless. They will in fact have no more money to fight those illnesses. Once again, great care must be paid when attempting to invite the central government to interfere in provincial jurisdictional areas.

Quebec has proven this with its system of child care centres. Regardless of what our friends may say about them, it is important to recognize the right of employees to unionize and to look out for their collective interests. No one can deny them that right, in my opinion. I am disappointed that the Conservatives brought that up earlier, trying to make people believe that child care services in Quebec are not quality services because the staff is unionized. I think that is absurd. The OECD has recognized the quality of Quebec's child care services and we must continue to support them.

I believe the Minister of Social Development is well-intentioned when he says he wants to implement a similar child care system across Canada. However, if the federal government does this, the provinces will face shortfalls. One government cannot pay for two tiers at the same time. In reality, it has the mandate to support provincial programs and, through the federal transfers, education, child care, health and all other matters under provincial jurisdiction. That is its duty. However, it cannot support the provinces and, simultaneously, implement the same kind of services it should be funding through transfer payments to the provinces. At some point, too many people will be working on this and there will not be enough funding for it. It is essential that we agree on how we want this government to operate, as long as the Bloc Québécois pays taxes and the other members of the House continue to defend the interests of their constituents.

Quebec has proven that, when it comes to child care services, it is extremely important to remember that the problem is much broader. We need to make decisions that best reflect people's needs. The importance of early learning has been proven, since the foundation of a child's physical, intellectual, emotional and social development is laid very early on. Not only is it unfortunate if children do not receive good quality services, but it may also mean that they do not necessarily have all the tools they deserve and need in order to develop normally.

Quebec has developed these tools, which have been recognized as being among the most effective and important. I want to talk a bit about this. Professors at the Université du Québec in Trois-Rivières conducted a study on the effects of preschool child care on child development.

The authors of that study, professors Palacio-Quintin and Coderre, concluded that:

The quality of the child care centre is a key factor in determining its impact on children's cognitive development. In this regard, the centres that perform well are those where there is proper employee training and a warm and positive teacher-child relationship.

Unfortunately, we cannot claim to have such services everywhere if we do not have very well defined parameters and structures to ensure that we provide exceptionally high quality services to our children.

As we know, the average is now 1.2 children per family. How can we ensure that this child, or this 1.2 child, can properly develop his or her sociability if he or she has no one else to interact with? We must absolutely give our children an opportunity to interact with other children, in an environment that is specifically designed for them, where they can grow, ask questions and also be children.

I only had two children. I now enjoy the company of my grandchildren to behave like a mother still, and in fact to act more like a child with them. Children imitate the behaviour that they see. This means that if a child does not have the opportunity to meet other children in his daily environment, he will imitate his parents' behaviour, instead of developing like a child. He will grow up and become responsible too quickly. Children must have the opportunity to live like children, which helps them develop while having fun in the process and gaining knowledge through the largest possible number of activities with the other children around them.

The two professors who did that study also found that attending a child care centre has a positive impact on cognitive development, and that the longer the child attends, the better his or her performance in this respect.

Again, I think the demonstration can always be made that what our children need are good child care services, with educators who have received proper training.

Of course there are mothers who will decide to stay at home to raise their children. There is nothing wrong with that. And there are fathers who will also choose to stay at home. With the new sharing of responsibilities, some men choose to stay at home instead of going into the work force. That is perfectly okay. I am sure that when these people make these choices, they have thought carefully about their children's future and they do what is best for them.

However, as a society, we must set parameters and establish programs that will serve the majority of our children. We must be concerned with and take responsibility for the quality of services to our children.

I will continue on the effect of child care, as determined by our professors at the Université du Québec in Trois-Rivières. They also say that children who go to formal day care centres and early childhood centres perform better than those in home day care programs.

In the long term, children who have experience in a day care centre perform better in languages and mathematics in elementary school. That is important. We want our children to perform well and to be able to develop emotionally, socially and also with regard to their health. We must give them the opportunity to do so.

It is not always easy in our society. There are a lot of single mothers. Many low-income parents, seeking to rise above poverty, could not send their children to day care centres because they used to be very expensive. With the new system, these people are able to put their children in early learning child care programs that are much better than the services they could afford before.

It must always be kept in mind that our primary responsibility to our children is to ensure that they have a better future that will enable them to develop to their full potential at all levels. To ensure that they do, they must have the proper means available, and I am convinced that child care services are the best route.

I am aware, however, that some people do not have this option. They too must have choices. Better programs will not be the outcome of trying to transform social programs, which ought to be provincial and are becoming federal. On the contrary, it has been proven that most of the time developing federal programs turns them into programs of dependency where the funding does not keep coming and so, after a few years, people no longer know where to turn for funding when the program comes to an end. We have, unfortunately, seen that with the SCPI.

There are some very good organizations in my riding that used to deliver services to the homeless and disadvantaged. After three, five or ten years of existence, these agencies now find themselves forced to let staff go because the decision has been made that there is no more money to be invested in these programs. When people become dependent on a program, they do not know when it will come to an end. This is not a good way to do things. The provinces and territories must assume their responsibilities. The people who are in the front lines and most familiar with the community should also take some responsibility.

My colleague referred to the boards of the early childhood education centres. These are made up of parents who work together to ensure that their children have the best tools. That is how things operate, and how they should operate.

We all realize that the Conservatives most certainly did not propose this motion in bad faith. I do not doubt for one moment that they want children to have the best possible services. I do not doubt that.

Nonetheless, when you introduce a motion you have to be very careful about the possible consequences if it is passed. These consequences can be very harmful to other programs and the transfers to the provinces that allow them to meet their commitments to their constituents. I am talking about commitments in terms of education, health, child care services and parental leave. We make such commitments to our constituents because we believe in them, respect them and want what is best for them.

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5:55 p.m.

NDP

Alexa McDonough NDP Halifax, NS

Madam Speaker, I think it is fair to say that many Canadians and many members of the House are actually envious of Quebec's child care system. Quebec has led the way in developing a child care system. I have a very specific question that I am interested in asking the member because I am not as familiar as I would like to be with the details on how the system works.

I think it is recognized universally that there is a need for a flexible system, one that represents the diverse requirements and conditions in people's lives, in people's families, in people's communities and in their workplace demands. It has been pointed out by several people that there are situations in which the model of community based child care centres may not be as applicable or attainable, for example, in rural communities, in the north, in the far less populated areas.

I am wondering if the member could familiarize all of us with respect to how the Quebec child care model would address those varying needs. In other words, it would have to be recognized that on a per capita basis it would be more expensive to provide adequate child care in a very sparsely populated area, or in the north where there are heavier expenses, greater travel distances, or just smaller numbers of people requiring child care in certain communities.

I wonder if the member could enlighten us on that point. Also, I wonder whether the member has had an opportunity to determine how the federal government's vision on the national child care program it is putting before Canadians would actually work in that regard.

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6 p.m.

Bloc

Nicole Demers Bloc Laval, QC

Madam Speaker, to begin I will answer the second question.

I had the pleasure of being in Winnipeg during the meeting on child care services. I believe that is when the minister showed us that he was very serious about the child care services he wanted to provide. Now, I know there were limits to what he could do. He said we needed to start with four-year-olds and up.

Unfortunately, I think we need to start with younger children. I did not provide an illustration. We need to do a tour of Canada, like the minister did, to see if this is applicable in all the provinces of Canada.

In Quebec, the service has been in place since 1997. We are still at the trial and error stage in some areas. For example, you know there is an exodus of families. Young people are leaving rural areas to go to the cities. The needs are certainly not as great in the smaller communities as in the larger ones. Nonetheless, we want to have equally good service in both places. The early childhood centres are a little smaller, but they welcome people the same way.

In certain parts of Quebec, people think nothing of driving 300 kilometres, leaving in the afternoon to visit friends for dinner. That is how it is in certain parts of Quebec. The North Shore is a case in point, and so is the Gaspé, where distances are great. More research remains to be done on this. Efforts must be made to ensure that good programs are in place. But the programs we have implemented so far are the best that could be had.

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6 p.m.

Peterborough Ontario

Liberal

Peter Adams LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development

Madam Speaker, my colleague and I share a common vision on the importance of quality early childhood education. I can relate to almost everything she said. I particularly appreciated her point about the 1.2 children per family. She would be pleased to know that 2.0 children just left the gallery.

It makes an important point about socialization. I come from a family of five and my wife from a family of seven. We have four children. One of those children has three. Another two have two and one has one. The size of the family is getting smaller. The socialization aspect, particularly if it is a family with 1.2 children, is really quite difficult. Socialization is very important for children at an early age, and in a family as small as that, it makes it more important than it would have been some generations ago.

The member and I obviously disagree on the role of the federal government. With respect to the federal government one of my views is that the great strength of a Confederation is the possibility for experimentation. The Confederation is made up of a group of jurisdictions, each of which is independent and powerful in various ways and it can experiment.

Sometimes a part will do something well and sometimes it will do it badly. If something does not work out well in one region, the federal government can take note of that and can make sure the rest of the country does not follow through with it. Sometimes, very often, a jurisdiction will do something wonderfully well, which is what has happened in Quebec at this time. I believe the duty of the federal government in a Confederation is to see the quality that has been done in one region and to introduce that quality as far as is possible to the rest of the Confederation, not with a formula but to introduce it to them and give them the resources so they too can develop their early childhood development system, as it is in this case.

I know hypothetically perhaps my colleague would not agree that a federal government has the duty to take good things in Confederation and introduce them to the rest of the country.

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6:05 p.m.

Bloc

Nicole Demers Bloc Laval, QC

Madam Speaker, this must come as a surprise to the hon. member. The government does have the duty to see and, having confirmed that these are the best services, hasten to take money and transfer it to provincial governments, to allow them to do the same.

I am puzzled. As my colleague said, in Quebec, we have the best day care services. Now, all the Minister of Social Development has to do is to transfer the money to Quebec.

As was so aptly pointed out—and the Prime Minister himself said so—there are no strings attached. No negotiations should therefore be necessary to get the money transferred. I wonder what is taking so long then. My concern is that this issue might be used for election purposes.

It is good that the central government gets to see what is going on in the provinces and territories, so that transfers can take place. But it has to transfer money at the same time as knowledge to the provinces, to allow them to implement similar programs.