House of Commons Hansard #117 of the 38th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was budget.

Topics

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

James Lunney Conservative Nanaimo—Alberni, BC

Mr. Speaker, I tend to agree with my colleague from the Bloc when he calls it an empty bill. The member from the NDP referred to the bill as the people's bill and that the people support this spending, but what the people generally do not understand is parliamentary procedure. However, the members opposite understand parliamentary procedure.

I wonder if the member was here when the parliamentary secretary said a few minutes ago that this is contingent spending. It is contingent, of course, on the surplus being above $2 billion, but the way members opposite have been spending money hand over fist, I wonder how many people will see any of the money that has been promised in this grand public relations exercise for the NDP. I am wondering if the NDP grassroots supporters themselves are disturbed by the NDP propping up Liberal corruption.

The bill, as my colleague mentioned, is only a two page bill with basically 400 words. Members opposite are talking about giving $4.5 billion to the government without a plan on how to spend it. We have seen what happens when we give the government large sums of money without a plan. That is what leads to sponsorship scandals and gun registries that go from $2 million to $2 billion. That should probably be the subject of an inquiry itself. How could the government possibly spend $2 billion to register a few guns in the country?

The Liberals have a contingency plan, of course. It is an escape plan and not a penny of this money will be spent unless the surplus remains over $2 billion, which will probably take 18 months and we will probably be well into an election before then, I would suggest.

I am wondering if the NDP is not disturbed about creating an illusion that all these things will be met, creating a public expectation for all these noble causes, and they are worthy causes. We would like to see all of these things addressed. However, I wonder if the NDP is not concerned about creating an illusion, because ultimately illusions lead to disappointment.

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

12:50 p.m.

NDP

Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC

Mr. Speaker, it is ironic how everybody's argument and debate is suddenly focused on this one bill. Everybody wants to throw in everything but the kitchen sink. I would pick up on one point that the hon. member has made. The bill is not about an illusion. It is based on reality. It is based on real financial expenditures and on the real financial picture.

The member asks how we will know if the surplus will be there? Maybe he has not been reading what has happened over the last year. If he will remember, the Liberal government predicted there would be a $1.9 billion surplus. Then it turned out to be $9.1 billion. Now it is actually $9.8 billion. That was for the previous fiscal year. The hon. member suggested that surplus will not exist. He should believe me, it will be there in the billions. He should read any financial forecast.

That is why the bill is based on financial prudence, as reported by the Comptroller General, because that surplus does have to exist. I agree with that. I will agree with the member that it has to be above $2 billion. He is questioning whether or not it will be there. I tell him to read any financial forecast and he will see that the surplus will be there and that expenditure will be there.

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to participate briefly in the report stage debate on Bill C-48. I wish to remind members of the issues.

The member who previously asked a question said there are no plans on how to spend the $4.5 billion. It would be somewhat inappropriate to come up with micro plans on every dollar and penny when in fact the spending of the $4.5 billion is contingent upon making sure that the provisions for fiscal responsibility are respected. That means we are not going back into deficit and, indeed, keeping the $2 billion contingency.

Having said that, the bill specifically identifies the plans. The first is in clause 2 for the environment, which the member opposite said there was nothing stipulated for, including public transit, the energy efficient retrofit program and low income housing in an amount not to exceed $900 million. The second would support training programs and enhance access to post-secondary education and benefit aboriginal Canadians in an amount not exceeding $1.5 billion.

The third addresses affordable housing, including housing for aboriginal Canadians, in an amount not exceeding $1.6 billion and the fourth provides foreign aid in an amount not exceeding $500 million. All of this, as the Bloc member tried to be critical of, is subject to the dollars being available in excess of the $2 billion surplus.

Having said that, in terms of considering their position on Bill C-48, members have to ask themselves whether or not the priority areas for Canadians regarding the environment, affordable housing, post-secondary education and foreign aid are important to Canada in terms of additional initiatives in those areas. There is no one issue I can think of where one could do everything one would ever want in one budget. These are all incremental. They are steps and they are important.

It is going to be extremely important for those who do not support Bill C-48 to identify with which portions they disagree. Would they go out in an election campaign, for instance, saying they are not going to support the environment, affordable housing, foreign aid and post-secondary education? I do not think anybody in this place is going to tell the people of Canada that these are things they do not support, to what extent and are they fiscally prudent.

I want to address the point the member just mentioned about it not being in the budget. The member is absolutely right. Bill C-48 is an expansion of the budgetary initiative that we are prepared to support. They would have been done eventually by us, although maybe not in this budget. One has to look at a series of budgets to see the priorities.

Bill C-48 exists because we have a minority government. I would suggest to the member opposite that if we did not have Bill C-48, June 26 would have been election day and he probably would have lost his seat.

The reality is that in a minority government, which there has not been since 1979, there is a responsibility to collaborate, cooperate and negotiate as necessary to ensure that Parliament works. Bill C-48 is the linchpin to ensuring this Parliament works. We in the Liberal Party want government to work. The NDP wants the government to work, but it is the unholy alliance of the Conservative Party and the Bloc Québécois that do not want Parliament to work.

It was through the collaborative efforts of those who want this minority Parliament to work on behalf of Canadians not to spend or misspend $250 million to $280 million on an unnecessary and unwanted election.

It is the responsible thing to do to show Canadians that a minority Parliament works. I am proud of the decisions that were taken by our party and I very much support Bill C-48.

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Bloc

Odina Desrochers Bloc Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC

Mr. Speaker, I listened very carefully to what my Liberal colleague had to say, and he completely forgot a few details. When he said that what the Liberal Party wanted with Bill C-48 was to govern in cooperation with the NDP, it is simply not true.

The Liberals have formed an alliance with the NDP in order to stay in power. They are not interested in governing, they are only interested in staying in power. We have seen all kinds of legislative sleight of hand in the House to put off legislation, to disregard certain situations such as unemployment and the fiscal imbalance. Votes have been bought. That is the Liberals' trademark. They do not want to manage and administer ideas that are not even their own—these are NDP ideas. They have engaged in flagrant opportunism in order to cling to power.

I would not be afraid to go to my riding or Quebec and say how this government is much more attached to being in power than to really governing.

I therefore ask the member, if there was so much openness, why did the government forget the unemployed and ignore the fiscal imbalance, which is the cause of all the socio-economic problems in Quebec? Why did his government not take advantage of Bill C-48 to include these things, which are essential to the Quebec economy? Why?

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, I reject the premise of the member's intervention. He talks about having an arrangement simply to keep power. Those are just words. It is not a matter of just keeping power; it is a matter of keeping governing. That is the difference.

With regard to the fiscal imbalance, I discussed this in debate with his finance critic. The bottom line is that the provinces have the resources and the means necessary to raise taxes to fund their programs. Any fiscal imbalance that exists is illusory. It is a matter of the federal government properly managing the financial affairs of the country. It has a surplus and provinces, like Quebec, simply say to give it to them. That is not accountability and transparency, and it is not going to happen.

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Thompson Conservative St. Croix—Belleisle, NB

Mr. Speaker, I want to read an article by Jacqueline Thorpe in today's National Post . She states:

The $4.5-billion New Democrat budget deal, new provincial health care and side deals, changes to equalization payments and a surge in program spending under Paul Martin's Liberals have led to a crazy-quilt of programs and blurred the lines between federal and provincial responsibilities, the Bank of Nova Scotia said in a report.

She is quoting a report from the Bank of Nova Scotia. I think most intelligent Canadians would say the very same thing. This is basically a flotation jacket for the Liberal Party. The Liberals wanted a lifeline to survive on the floor of the House of Commons and they did it. They did it with a spending spree of $4.5 billion on a plan that was sketched out on the back of a napkin in a hotel room in downtown Toronto. How can the member possibly support that type of deal?

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is important to remind the member that selective media commentary does not tell the whole story in most cases.

If the $2 billion surplus can still be provided, and the $4.5 billion in the areas outlined in Bill C-48 can be delivered upon, the spending of the Government of Canada would still remain in the range of about 12% of GDP, which is the same level. We would remain at the same level of spending compared to what the last Conservative government was spending, which was 17% of GDP. It is clear that fiscal prudence and proper fiscal management are in place with this government.

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

Bill Casey Conservative North Nova, NS

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to speak to Bill C-48, perhaps not for what is in it, but for what is not in it. I also want to mention Bill C-43 because of what is in it and what is not in it.

Bill C-43 was delivered as a good news budget and everything was great, but a line item in Bill C-43 indicates that the government is going to close the agricultural experimental farms in Canada. Four experimental farms are going to be closed at a time when farmers need more help than they have ever needed before. They need more research, more help and the government is quietly going to close the farms. I was hoping that those farms would come back in Bill C-48 but they did not.

I want to talk about the farm in my riding as it applies to Bill C-48. Nappan Experimental Farm has been in my riding since 1880. It has been a cornerstone of the agricultural community. It has been part of our lifestyle in the maritime provinces. It is located in the exact geographic centre of the Maritimes. The Liberals have announced they are going to close it. What is their reason? They gave us the reason of cost saving.

Before I get into that, I want to acknowledge that the Cumberland County Federation of Agriculture has made an incredible effort to try to stop the decision to close the Nappan Experimental Farm. Those people have put the rest of us to shame. They have dropped their farming needs and all the work they have to do and have gone at this with a vengeance. They have circulated a petition on which they have obtained 2,667 signatures. I will be tabling that petition eventually.

I want to congratulate the president of the Cumberland County Federation of Agriculture, Frank Foster, the secretary, Marilyn Clark, who did a lot of the work, and board members Carl Woodworth, Leon Smith, my friend Kurt Sherman and all the other members. They have done an exemplary job. It is extraordinary what they have done in spearheading this and I take my hat off to them.

I also want to thank my local newspaper which has done a great job in raising this issue. All the media in the area have been very supportive in every way. They have helped us a lot. I also want to thank our agriculture critic, the member for Haldimand--Norfolk, for her tremendous support, and our leader for the efforts to stop the closure of Nappan Experimental Farm.

We were blindsided. We were told at one point that the farm was not going to close. It was not that long ago the government said that there were no plans to close the farm and that everybody could rest easy. Two months later in the budget, the government announced that it was closing the farm. The Liberals did not tell anybody. They did not have a press conference.

I want to compliment the Amherst Daily News on an article it published yesterday. In her article “Whatever happened to Ottawa's commitment to farm?” Sandra Bales describes how just a few years ago a Liberal senator came to the farm and announced that the government was spending $500,000 and made a total commitment to the farm. She describes it as a hot day in the summer. The senator was holding a press conference at Nappan to hand out $500,000 for the Nappan federal beef research station. She describes how communications officers were handing out press releases, and how the personal assistants to the politicians were handing out business cards.

There was a big flurry when this was announced, but in February, after the Liberals had said a couple of weeks earlier that there were no plans to close the farm, they did not come to the riding. They did not come to the farm. They did not tell anybody. They called in the staff at the Nappan Experimental Farm and gave them their walking papers while the minister was reading the budget speech. I think that was so offensive.

Sandra Bales of the Amherst Daily News points out how, the Liberals will come to the region in a big flurry with their assistants, business cards and press releases when they have good news, but when they are firing people, they hide in their ivory towers of Ottawa. That was the way she said it. I thought it was an excellent article and I compliment her. I could not have said it anywhere near as well.

First I want to talk about the decision to close the farms. Our critics and our members of the agriculture committee recently were questioning the minister who acknowledged, and it is written up in the The Western Producer , that the effort to centralize decision making on budget and research for agriculture is wrong and he has agreed to review it. He said, “I have asked for, and it is being done, a review of how we approach science in the department”. He is already acknowledging that the system that makes decisions is flawed. Overall the whole system that makes the decisions is flawed.

Now I will talk about the decision regarding Nappan. I was told that they had to cut it because they needed to cut costs to maintain research. I believe them for what they say, but I made an access to information request and did I ever get a surprise when I got the information. Not only am I surprised, I am angry. The decision was made for wrong reasons. Obviously the department is in disarray, in chaos. The reasons are inconsistent. I want to read a few things from this access to information.

In an internal memo, 11 Department of Agriculture officials go through all the reasons they are going to save money and the justifications and then it says that all of this casts some doubt on the savings but scientists are saying that this will be guaranteed.

They are saying it is going to save $250,000. It is $250,000 and they will not do it. I noticed in the paper the other day the Liberals are spending over $402,000 on the legal fees for Alfonso Gagliano, but they will not spend $250,000 on research for the agricultural community in Atlantic Canada. Even internally they question the numbers and the savings. It goes on and then on another page of this document from two years ago exactly, they announced:

[The Department of Agriculture] has made a long-term commitment to the future of the experimental farm and has no intention of closing it. Last year, we invested $800,000 to enhance [the facility].

Last year the government spent $800,000 and now the government says it is going to save some money, but even the department doubts that.

The most offensive thing in the access to information is a memo to the deputy minister. It says:

Purpose. To inform you of an opportunity for [the Department of Agriculture] to demonstrate leadership on Expenditure Review. The department wants to discontinue the research at its experimental farm in Nappan.

And get this:

This exercise could demonstrate exemplary behaviour with respect to Expenditure Management Review (EMR) and position [the department] as a leader.

The government is closing the Nappan Experimental Farm to make the department and the officials look good. I cannot believe it. Exemplary behaviour in the Liberals' point of view is firing 14 people and closing down a farm that has been serving the agricultural community for over 100 years. To position the department as a leader is not what this is about. This is about agriculture. It is about research. It is about science and it is about the future. They are trying to impress the expenditure review committee, but on another page the expenditure review committee is reluctant to accept that position.

Some of them say they are going to save money. The department says they question that. The expenditure review says that they do not believe it, that they do not accept it, but the department wants to do it so the department looks good. That argument about saving money does not hold water.

There are other things that are totally inconsistent in this document which really make me angry. I was told that research was going to go from one place in Nova Scotia, Nappan, to Kentville in Nova Scotia. Throughout this document it says that research on forage and diets and meat quality currently at Nappan could move to Lacombe, Alberta. In another place it says:

Nappan is one of the four original experimental farms created by legislation in the 1880s. Research here could be shifted to Lacombe, Alberta.

Then in another part it says:

The beef research from Nappan would move to the University of Guelph at New Liskeard.

My point is that the department does not know what it is doing. It does not know whether it is saving money. It does not know if it is not saving money. It does not know if it is going to move the research to somewhere else in Nova Scotia, or to Ontario, or to Alberta.

The minister has already agreed that the process is flawed. I contend that the decision on Nappan farm is flawed as well.

I met with the minister today. I asked him to stop this decision, to put a moratorium on the decision. I asked him to allow the people to have input, which they were denied totally. We were told on December 8 that the farm was not going to close. There was a great big headline in the newspaper, “Nappan station to stay open”. Then two months later in the budget the Nappan research station is to close.

We should have an opportunity to present a case for the Nappan Experimental Farm. It has been a key component of the agricultural community in all the maritime provinces. It is absolutely necessary more now than ever, as is the beef research more necessary now than ever. I am asking the minister to put a moratorium on this closure until he knows what is going on. I do not think he knows.

The information that I gave him this morning was the first time he had seen it. I take total, absolute exception to the department saying that this is exemplary behaviour and if it closes Nappan it will show the department as a leader.

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

Scarborough—Guildwood Ontario

Liberal

John McKay LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the hon. member's speech and actually found it quite interesting. Unfortunately, it had nothing to do with what we were talking about today which is Bill C-48. I am rather hoping that the hon. member has read Bill C-48. His colleagues apparently have pointed out that it is a rather short bill. I am hoping that some time prior to the delivery of his speech he read Bill C-48.

I want him to comment on the remarks of Charles-Antoine St-Jean, Comptroller General of Canada, who in his notes to his remarks says that Bill C-48 would provide enabling legislative authority to ministers; that Bill C-48 is unique in that this is the first time that spending authority would be provided that is subject to there being a minimum fiscal surplus; that this represents a prudent approach to fiscal management; that in addition, it provides a $4.5 billion cap on spending; that in advance of year end, it also provides more lead time to determine the specific management framework; and that everything is subject to Treasury Board approval prior to March 31.

Having heard those comments, and I hope having read Bill C-48, I wonder if the member would think the Comptroller General of Canada is giving substantial approval to the frame of this bill.

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

Bill Casey Conservative North Nova, NS

Mr. Speaker, the member says that this does not refer to Bill C-48, but as a matter of fact in every way it does. There is no community in our country now that needs more help than the agricultural community. What is in Bill C-48 about agriculture? Nothing. It is absolutely incredible that there is nothing in Bill C-48 and the only thing in Bill C-43 is that the government is going to cut back on research. It is going to cut back on its help to the agricultural community. It is not going to help the farming community. This has everything to do with it.

As far as the Comptroller General is concerned, I do not even have to go there because the Liberals' own cabinet expenditure review committee questions the decision to close the Nappan farm. It said, “we don't even think it will achieve the savings”. Their own internal documents say, “we question the savings that are presented by the officials”.

I come back to the memo to the deputy minister which says, “This could demonstrate exemplary behaviour”. Is the member proud that this is exemplary behaviour. Is firing 14 hardworking people and closing the Nappan Experimental Farm when it is most needed what he calls exemplary behaviour?

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

James Lunney Conservative Nanaimo—Alberni, BC

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the member bringing forth an issue in his own riding and the way that Liberals are pulling back funding for projects that are important in many local communities. What is not in the budget is certainly part of this discussion. Responsible spending and responsible budgeting is what this discussion is all about.

The member mentioned the experimental farm in his riding. We certainly support the concerns that he has, but we have other ridings in this country where there is no RCMP support at the border crossings. The Liberals have pulled that back as the RCMP does not have any money for manning the border posts. Just the other day we had a big discussion about arming our border agents, but the Minister of Public Safety said that they have pepper spray and batons, to go up against guns or a speeding car coming across our border.

In my own riding we have a very serious concern. We have a concern here in Canada now about potentially 1,000 Chinese spies. A few years ago there were so-called Chinese immigrant ships, migrant ships off the coast. We have no money for surveillance services. Just in the past few weeks two ghost ships have passed by along the coast of Vancouver Island. No transponders; no communications; no radios; no lights. When our Coast Guard officials call the RCMP and DND, is there any response? Are there any flights that go out? Worse, have they any money for their flights or money for maintenance of the aircraft?

My question to the hon. member is can the NDP not understand and does the member opposite not understand it is about productivity and it is about responsible spending? As the chamber of commerce says, they are crippling the ability to meet the very needs that they are purporting to meet in this illusion budget.

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Bill Casey Conservative North Nova, NS

Mr. Speaker, this is about responsible spending. In my presentation I pointed out that there are so many different points of view on the decision to close the Nappan Experimental Farm. No one agrees with it, except the people who want to make the department look good and even the people making that judgment do not agree with it.

I am glad the member brought up the RCMP because I have the same problem in my province of Nova Scotia. Top RCMP officers have told me that they do not have the funding to employ the minimum number of RCMP officers to do the minimum level of law enforcement. That is not exemplary behaviour, but apparently the Liberals think it is: cut back on the RCMP; cut back on the farming community; do not give them any money, but give Alfonso Gagliano $402,000 for his legal bill.

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Thompson Conservative St. Croix—Belleisle, NB

Mr. Speaker, where do I begin on Bill C-48? Perhaps I should just pick up where the member from Nova Scotia left off.

I was jotting down some notes in thinking of how to start off this debate. Government should be about addressing the real needs of Canadians as opposed to the political needs of the party it represents; in this case the Liberal Party of Canada.

The parliamentary secretary is yakking away on his side of the House. I would expect him to at least listen. When it is his opportunity to speak, I will listen and we can debate it back and forth. However, his yakking over there does not really add much to this place.

I would question whether the real needs of Canadians are being met in Bill C-48. The member from Nova Scotia set out some of the areas in Nova Scotia where a little of money could make a big difference in terms of jobs and stability in our agricultural sector, research and so on.

I want to point out some of the same issues in the province of New Brunswick where a little money could make a lot of difference.

Some of these we could argue are not a little money but a lot of money. For example, there is the refurbishment of Pointe Lapreau. The Government of Canada has said that it would assist the refurbishment of Pointe Lapreau. It is a $1.5 billion expenditure. Most of it will be borne by the Province of New Brunswick and the utility, the New Brunswick Electric Power Commission. They are asking the Government of Canada to come in with some assistance. The number that is being thrown about is somewhere between $200 million and $400 million. We are not sure what it is going to be, but we are hoping the Government of Canada will be there.

It could have been there, but when one goes on a wild spending spree with no plan for the future, as Liberals have done, the question becomes, how much money is going be left over for those programs and spending priorities that should have been there in the first place?

In addition to that, we have an aquaculture industry in New Brunswick. I know, Mr. Speaker, you are familiar with that, coming from the west coast which has a significant aquaculture industry as well. To restructure and get through some difficulties the industry has experienced through new fault of its own in the last number of years, it needs somewhere in the order of $60 million is required. That is way short of a billion dollars. Just to remind the House and Canadians a billion is a thousand million.

I was making some notes before I came to the chamber because it is kind of interesting when we actually measure. How much is a billion dollars? A thousand million. How much is a thousand million? It is normally not the kind of change we are familiar with. It is a lot of cash.

I invite members to carry out this research, but they will have to believe me on this one. A million dollars is two metres high if it is being counted in $100 bills. If we had $100 bills stacked on top of each other, it would be just about my height. Therefore, think of this as a billion is a thousand million. Therefore, a billion dollars would be 2,000 metres high, about a mile and a half high in the sky. Talk about pie in the sky.

Therefore, when we are talking about almost $5 billion, we are talking about a 9,000 metre high pile of $100 bills stacked on top of each other. I believe Mount Logan is the highest mountain in Canada. It would dwarf Mount Logan. I am sure it would dwarf the tallest building in your riding, Mr. Speaker, with a lot left over to spend.

That is the point that I am making. It is a lot of money that has been just thrown out there for nothing more than political support. It is a life jacket for the Liberal Party of Canada. Basically, it bought off the NDP with a lot of money, $4.5 billion. On top of that, it could be argued that the member for New Brunswick Southwest is on a political mission. We probably all are on a political mission.

I want to go back to what has been reported in the national press in terms of this $4.5 billion spending spree. I quoted from an article written by Jacqueline Thorpe, in which she quotes what some of Canada's chief economists have said about this. She has saying that this is a deal makes no sense. I will quote an another article that appeared today. She says:

The NDP deal, for example, funnels federal spending specifically to post-secondary education and training, affordable housing and energy conservation, areas that provinces would have funded through federal social transfers--if they so wanted.

The government is out on a patchwork, hodgepodge spending spree simply to get the support of a political party in order to survive a vote on the floor of the House of Commons. It boils down to the fact that the Liberals simply do not want an election. However, it is costing every Canadian and it is costing the credibility of the Government of Canada.

When this same government lost power in 1984 to the Conservatives, it bragged. I believe it was Jean Chrétien who authored these words when the Liberals left office in 1984. He said, “There's nothing to worry about, because we left the cupboard bare”. The Liberals bankrupted the country when they left office, knowing it would be very difficult for the next government to get its financial house in order, given the level of bankruptcy in which they left the Government of Canada.

The Liberals brag about what they have done in terms of managing the economy. However, most Canadians know that the deficit has been eliminated. That is fine. We know how that was done and we will not argue the point today. We will give them credit for that. Obviously they did it because of the growth in the economy, because of free trade and because of the revenues flowing in from the GST.

What the Liberals do not talk about is the accumulated debt in the country, which is still approaching about $500 billion. In terms of interest charges, that is costing Canada today, as we speak. Every time we pay interest on that $500 billion accumulated debt, which we still are, it costs every Canadian.

This is one of the lines that our finance critic came up with and it is quite clever. I know the Liberals hate to hear this, because he is much more clever than they are. He says, “The Conservative Party will clean up government, but the Liberals want to clean out government”.

That goes right back to the same old philosophy of the 1980s: “Spend it because we're in power. Forget about the future of Canada, forget about what we could be doing with that money”. This is absolutely irresponsible spending at the hands of the Liberals. They simply do not deserve to be re-elected when an election takes place. This is simply a lifeline that they are throwing out in order to survive votes in the House of Commons. They basically bought the NDP. They bought 19 members of Parliament to the tune of $4.5 billion on a plan that was written on the back of a napkin, courtesy of Buzz Hargrove, in a hotel room in downtown Toronto. That is just about as sad as it could possibly get.

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

1:30 p.m.

NDP

Bev Desjarlais NDP Churchill, MB

Mr. Speaker, first I want to acknowledge my colleague from New Brunswick. Usually he and I are a little closer on agreement on some issues, but today I cannot help but question him as to how he can somehow answer to Canadians that he supported $4.6 billion in corporate tax cuts. Was that not spending or giving up taxpayer dollars? The NDP said that it wanted services back for all Canadians, not for the Conservatives' friends through corporate tax cuts.

My colleague talked about the heights of money. He had it as being 9,000 metres and he went on indepth as to how high the money would stack. Totally relevant to that comment, I have to ask him this. If the princess was on top of the money, would she have felt the pea?

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Thompson Conservative St. Croix—Belleisle, NB

Mr. Speaker, it is doubtful that she would have. That is a lot of cash.

When the member talks about tax breaks for businesses and ordinary Canadians, I guess that is where we Conservatives part with the NDP. The fact is it is businesses and individual Canadians that pay the bills around this place. We are talking about are tax breaks to companies, big and small, and individuals to help grow the Canadian economy. We believe growing the Canadian economy and spending responsibility is something the NDP simply does not understand.

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

1:30 p.m.

Bloc

Yvon Lévesque Bloc Nunavik—Eeyou, QC

Mr. Speaker, I have been hearing speeches about Bill C-48 ever since this morning. Not long ago, we were debating Bill C-43. Even before Bill C-43 was introduced, numerous meetings were held among the various party leaders and the various finance critics.

I understand very well, although the ordinary taxpayer does not, why this government felt obliged, after all the time it had before tabling its budget, to hold these panicked negotiations with another party when it did bring in the budget and began to feel the impending threat of defeat. The NDP negotiated this agreement, partly because it too needed to avoid an election, not being able to afford another campaign, but also to build up its credibility. The bulk of its financial backing comes from the labour movement, and the workers have been totally neglected. There is not one red cent in it for the unemployed.

I have a question for the hon. member from New Brunswick whose riding is close to the Quebec border. He might in fact find it advantageous to look toward Quebec. My question: apart from the measures in favour of the oil and gas industry and the automotive industry, what else is there in Bill C-48 that is worthwhile?

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1:35 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Thompson Conservative St. Croix—Belleisle, NB

Mr. Speaker, there are lots of good things in Bill C-48, provided the government can afford it. One thing one has to remember in this place is that people very seldom argue with spending money on particular programs. There are always a lot of self-interest groups. I guess we are part of them because a lot of that money will be spent in areas we like.

It comes down to corrupting the process of budget making in the House. Remember, we supported the original budget, Bill C-43, brought in by the finance minister. We believe in a minority government we have to do the best we can, put a little water in our wine and hope we can allow the government, which is about a year old, to proceed and not defeat it.

That goodwill was thrown out the window when the whole process was corrupted. After the finance minister delivered his budget, the Prime Minister flew to Toronto three or four weeks later. He made a side deal with the NDP to the tune of $4.5 billion and the finance minister was left completely out of the loop. In most cases like this a finance minister, with any backbone or integrity, would have simply resigned because the entire process was corrupted. That is the point I am attempting to make.

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1:35 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to join the debate. If I may, I would like to pick up where the previous speaker left off, although obviously I will go in a different direction, because it takes me straight into most of my points.

I find it fascinating that the previous speaker and the Bloc and Conservative members who have spoken, the Conservatives in particular, have focused on this issue that the NDP really had no moral right, and these are my words, to join in this agreement to create a better balanced budget because the Liberals are too corrupt. I think I have the argument correct, do I not?

There is a problem I have with that. There are a lot of problems with that, but one is the very amendments that the Conservative Party has tabled today, and the very first one, Motion No. 1, their own amendment. Does it say that this is too corrupt a deal and a process and that therefore the bill should be killed? No. Does the amendment say it ought to be pushed back so that it has the de facto effect of killing the bill? Is it that kind of parliamentary manoeuvre? No.

All it does is say this: instead of there having to be a guaranteed $2 billion surplus as a trigger before the $4.5 billion gets spent, it moves that line from a $2 billion trigger to a $3.5 billion trigger.

I thought your argument was that the whole thing is--

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

1:35 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I would just remind the hon. member to direct his comments to the Chair. We would appreciate that for the debate.

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1:35 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Some of us are slow learners. I apologize again, Sir.

The argument from the Conservatives is that the whole thing is too corrupt in terms of content, process, relationship and Gomery, and therefore under no condition should the NDP have joined in any kind of deal, yet here they are moving an amendment that amends it. It does not get rid of it. It does not kill it. It just amends it. The official opposition's arguments are specious.

My colleague has just finished pointing out that the Conservatives were in favour of a $4.6 billion corporate tax cut, which, by the way, nobody had a mandate to bring in and nobody was lobbying for except the Conservatives. That expenditure was contained in Bill C-43, the original Liberal budget. Not only did the Conservatives support that $4.6 billion, which, by the way--

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

1:40 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Thompson Conservative St. Croix—Belleisle, NB

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I think we need to have some clarification here. The member is talking about an amendment to a bill, and he is absolutely correct on that, but I just want to remind him that the amendment was placed to make a bad bill better.

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1:40 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

That is not a point of order. I thank the hon. member for his point, such as it was, but it was not a point of order.

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1:40 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, I think they just do not care to hear these messages today and one way to kill time is to raise points of order that are not really points of order.

The fact of the matter is that the Conservatives were quite prepared to support, in the original Liberal budget, $4.6 billion being spent. Tax cuts are expenditures. They are no different from program spending. Whether we are spending the money we receive on programs and services or whether we deny ourselves that revenue, it has the same impact on the budget and it is still called an expenditure.

The Conservatives were quite prepared to accept that, but not the $4.6 billion that is going to help ordinary Canadians in the things that matter to their lives and to their families, things for which they are looking to this House to provide some remedy.

There are tens of thousands of young people who are going to be affected by the fact that the NDP better balanced budget will make sure that we provide direct assistance to students who are facing enormous debt loads. We know that they are the future of this country. And since the Conservatives are so concerned about the economy, let me say that the young people of Canada are also the future engine of economic activity.

You thought, the Conservatives thought, it was more important to--

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1:40 p.m.

Conservative

Garry Breitkreuz Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. How many times does he have to be corrected on parliamentary procedure? Surely this member can learn sooner or later.

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1:40 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The hon. member is correcting himself, but I would urge him, of course, to speak in the third person or direct his comments to the Chair. That way, we will not have these points of order.