House of Commons Hansard #119 of the 38th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was spending.

Topics

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

12:05 p.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Nobody should ever listen to the Conservative Party of Canada, in any incarnation, for guidance on accountability and spending.

I point to the NDP, with balanced budgets--

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

12:05 p.m.

An hon. member

There are none in the House to point to.

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

12:05 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

Order, please. I have difficulty hearing the hon. member.

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

12:05 p.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I do not want to have to shout to be heard over the caterwauling and the gnashing of teeth and the rending of garments by my colleagues with the Conservative Party, but I will point out that the Conservatives have the worst track record in history: the deficit went from $100 billion to $500 billion. It is a good thing that Mulroney was booted out when he was or this country would have been irreversibly bankrupt.

It is a huge contradiction and it is a tragic irony for us to have these guys suggesting fiscal management policy to those of us who actually know what balanced budgets are all about. It is part of our policy, for heaven's sake.

All the spending in Bill C-48 is within the context of a balanced budget that includes $2 billion to debt repayment as well and tax breaks to small and medium sized businesses. There is very little to criticize here, which is why the Conservatives find themselves with very little to say. They are sitting on the sidelines. They are irrelevant, more irrelevant than they have ever been in Canadian history, because in actual fact the issues that they stand for are out of vogue. Neo-conservatism has had its heyday and now it is yesterday's news.

In actual fact, the very things that the NDP was created to fight for are the top of mind issues of most Canadians: security, pensions and poverty reduction. All of them are issues about which Canadians now are asking. What about our quality of life and what about our environment, they are saying. Frankly, those are the things that we stand for and that our party was created to fight for.

The Conservatives are irrelevant because the things they were created to do in their most recent incarnations are no longer in vogue and they have abandoned their grassroots policy. They now have embraced 35 senators and Bay Street to the point where they are really just corporate shills. I cannot tell the difference between a Conservative corporate shill and a Liberal corporate shill. There is no difference: Liberal, Tory, same old story, right? It rhymes.

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

12:05 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Mississauga South.

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

If I am correct, Mr. Speaker, this is on the amendment to Motion No. 1.

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

12:05 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

We are on the entire Group No. 1.

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, is it the amendment to Motion No. 1, moved by the member for Medicine Hat? I want to check if I have spoken.

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

12:10 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

You can speak to Motion No. 1 within the group. The motions have been regrouped and we are now debating Group No. 1.

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, I want to briefly note the amendment to Motion No. 1 moved by the member for Medicine Hat, increasing the $2 billion threshold to $3.5 billion. The reason I want to address this matter is that it has become an issue in debate with regard to the word “may”: that the government “may” make the investments in foreign aid, environment, post-secondary and housing, and there has been some question about why “may” is used.

First, as has been indicated, the word “may” always appears in budget documents.

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

12:10 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

Excuse me. The hon. member for Mississauga South has surely been so interested in the debate that he forgot he has already spoken on this part. It is an interesting debate and there have been various subjects within the debate.

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

That is why I asked the question, Mr. Speaker, on the amendment of the hon. member for Medicine Hat, which was moved after I spoke, but we are debating all the groups and that is fair enough. Thank you.

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Gordon O'Connor Conservative Carleton—Lanark, ON

Mr. Speaker, as Conservatives we believe in a balance among fiscal responsibility, progressive social policy and individual rights and responsibilities. We also believe in the rule of law and the Constitution, especially the division of powers between the federal level of government and the provincial level of government.

In particular, we believe that the federal government should attend to federal responsibilities like trade, defence, immigration, the economic levers of the economy, et cetera. The provincial government should look after the delivery of health care, education, welfare, the issues of cities, et cetera. This conditions our approach to budgeting.

For too long, the Liberals, supported by the NDP, have interfered in the responsibilities of the provinces. They seem more interested in provincial matters than in federal responsibilities. That is why the management of immigration is such a mess, the armed forces have been allowed to decay, trade issues never get resolved, the fish have disappeared, air pollution never gets better, taxes remain high and our place in the world continues to diminish.

If the federal government attended to its own responsibilities rather than those of the provinces, perhaps it would deliver the efficient government the people of Canada need and want. If it continues on the current track of provincial and municipal interference, we will soon see the Liberal government delivering pizza to our doors.

The Liberals want to endlessly interfere in our lives and tell us what to say and what to do. Every problem is solved by a big, central, government-managed program. Their most recent idea is a national day care system that will cost between $10 billion and $13 billion annually.

I do not know how we will be able to pay for this, especially with the massive unsolved challenges of medicare. Why does the government not ensure that medicare is on a stable footing before committing us to another mismanaged government program? Why does the government not strive to improve the standard of living, which has not fundamentally changed for 10 years?

The Conservative Party of Canada believes in focusing on the federal challenges. Our vision of Canada is a country with the highest standard of living in the world, where every Canadian who wants a job should be able to get a job and where every region of the country enjoys economic growth and there are new opportunities for the people of those regions.

Our goal is to make Canada the economic envy of the world. The Conservative Party has consistently opposed the Liberal approach to spending without an adequate plan, which is reflected in Bill C-48. The Liberal approach is cruel not only to taxpayers, but more important, to those who depend upon the promised services. The Liberals are willing to spend billions of taxpayers' dollars to fund their addiction to power. This is a direct result of the loss of their moral authority to govern.

If we look at Bill C-48, a document of a mere two pages, we will see that it essentially seeks authority for the government to spend $4.5 billion without identifying any particular program that will justify the spending. This is reminiscent of the $9 billion in trust funds set up by the Prime Minister when he was finance minister. Members may recall that these funds are beyond the review of the Auditor General. We have no independent knowledge of how these funds are being spent.

Given the problems that arose because of the sponsorship program, we can only imagine what potential disasters await Canadians when some day in the future we are provided with all the details. That is why we as Conservatives are worried about authorizing the government to spend $4.5 billion without any identified program. Who knows where the money will be actually spent and how much of it will be wasted?

As well as worrying about waste, we also wonder why the government dramatically amended its budget, Bill C-43, which had been developed over many months. In fact, when it was briefed in Parliament we were told that it could not be changed. It was described as something like the rock of Gibraltar. The government considered any suggestion of change unacceptable and a matter of parliamentary confidence. However, when the NDP offered a lifeline to the government, the budget was dramatically changed, without the blink of an eye. It is obvious that for the Liberals power trumps principle any day.

As part of the hotel room deal, the government promised the NDP its $4.5 billion wish list and agreed to remove corporate tax cuts from the previously unchangeable Bill C-43 budget. Both of these actions are unfortunate because it reflects that the government did not have any real commitment to its own budget and, therefore, the credibility of the finance minister has certainly been diminished.

As well, the deletion of corporate tax cuts, while maintaining a pitiful $16 personal tax cut, shows a government that is not interested in improving productivity. It is only interested in maintaining power regardless of the consequences to the economy.

However the government's commitment to the NDP wish list is less than complete. Members will notice that rather than amending Bill C-43 further, the government chose to create a new budget called Bill C-48. I assume this was done because the government did not have complete confidence that the NDP wish list would ever be implemented and that the government did not want to impair its budget, Bill C-43, with these add-ons.

Bill C-48 looks like it was written on the back of a cigarette package. The lack of details regarding specific programs, combined with the Liberals' poor record on delivering value for money, provides little guarantee that the objectives of the bill would be met, that taxpayer money would be spent properly or that Canadians would be better off.

It would be irresponsible and cruel to Canadians in need to throw more money at programs that are not meeting their objectives. The responsible approach would be for the government to first ensure that the money is spent effectively to improve existing programs and services to ensure that nobody is left behind.

The government has reverted to its type, tax and spend. For years it has taken in far more revenue than it needed. Year after year it overtaxed Canadians claiming that having large surpluses was somehow something wonderful. It is not wonderful. It means that every Canadian is paying more in taxes than is required to provide government services.

Since the Prime Minister assumed power he has been looking for ways to spend surpluses rather than transferring tax points to the provinces or reducing corporate and personal taxes. It is as if he and the finance minister believe that overtaxing citizens is one of our national values.

The change in approach of the Prime Minister toward the budget is quite dramatic. He and his government keep touting their efforts during the Chrétien years. Since he has moved from finance minister to Prime Minister, I believe we are seeing his real attitude toward governing. He believes in big government and big bureaucracies. He believes that government should spend the maximum amount of Canadians' hard-earned money. Canadians are overtaxed and that overtaxation is sucking jobs and initiative out of our economy.

The federal government is growing at about 6% to 7% per year while the economy is only growing at about 3%. The five year budget projection of the Liberal government, including the NDP add-on, continues this excessive expansion into the future. Anyone with a basic knowledge of economics knows that it will either drive the federal government into deficit or will require ever increasing income and corporate taxes from Canadians.

While the government is spending at obscene rates, the provinces and the cities are starving for revenues. If the government needs to find additional ways to spend its excessive revenues, like the current NDP $4.5 billion add-on, perhaps it could transfer tax points to the provinces so they can do the job more effectively.

If this country is to have a bright future, the government has to stop wasting money. It has to tighten the tax burden on all Canadians, especially those at the bottom of the economic ladder. It has to let Canadians spend their own money on things they need rather than the government spending it to buy power.

I believe that Bill C-48 is unfocused and potentially wasteful spending. For that reason, I will vote against it when it is presented for approval.

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, I now have a chance to make my point on the amendment by the member for Medicine Hat. It ties in directly with the member's statements.

As members know, Bill C-48 prescribes spending of up to $4.5 billion but it is subject to achieving a $2 billion surplus. The amendment by the member for Medicine Hat increases that to $3.5 billion. Ultimately, what it means is that the intent and the areas of interest of Bill C-48, being foreign aid, the environment, post-secondary education and housing, continue to be issues which the Conservative Party chooses not to support.

Could the member explain to the House why he is opposed to, for example, increased investment in affordable housing so that more Canadians can have the dignity of a roof over their heads?

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Gordon O'Connor Conservative Carleton—Lanark, ON

Mr. Speaker, the four initiatives identified in the NDP add-on are good initiatives. However when the Liberal government formed its budget, which we now know as Bill C-43, it chose not to include these initiatives. After consulting Canadians, businesses, labour, think tanks, et cetera on what the appropriate balance should be in the budget, the government chose not to put these $4.5 billion of add-ons into its budget.

The member asked me if we appreciate the investments in these areas. My answer is yes we do. However it is like asking me if I love my mother or if I love apple pie. Of course I do. However I also love my father and I love blueberry pie. It is a matter of choice. The government's choices are in Bill C-43. Bill C-48 is merely an add on to maintain power. The government needed to get the 19 votes of the NDP so it could stay in power. It was never the government's intention to spend moneys in those areas.

In addition, the $4.5 billion is essentially a pot of money. There are no programs. The government's record has shown that even when it had programs in place, the money was still wasted. Authorizing the government to spend another $4.5 billion at the whim of the governor in council gives it too much money.

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

12:20 p.m.

NDP

Ed Broadbent NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, I listened with care to my hon. friend and I liked his pie metaphor. If I recall correctly, he said that he did not want to choose between apple pie or blueberry pie. I want to say to him that I like apple pie and blueberry pie. The wonderful thing about this budget is that we can have both the apple pie and the blueberry pie. This budget means more money for post-secondary education, for affordable housing, for the environment and for paying down the debt, while still ending up with a $2 billion surplus.

Having listened to some Progressive Conservatives in the past, when I first came to this place several hundred years ago, I would have thought there would be a number of Conservatives here now who would like that kind of balanced approach, doing some social good and being fiscally responsible. My hon. friend has a few grey hairs like I have myself and I am sure he can remember back to that good period.

When we have a budget that balances the books, pays down the debt and has, at the same time, all this good social spending, how can one seriously vote against it?

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Gordon O'Connor Conservative Carleton—Lanark, ON

Mr. Speaker, I also like peach pie, which I will say, in this case, is my representation of tax cuts. I like pie.

Last year the government had a surplus of $12 billion. I do not care which way we cut it, that is taking in too much tax. Right now the government, combined with the member's party, are finding ways to spend money. If they carry on, they will find ways to consume all of next year's surplus.

When a government has surpluses that are beyond the contingency money and beyond a share of debt repayment, then it is bringing in way too much money. It means that people are being taxed too much. I would prefer to give people money in their hands, either through tax reductions or tax credits, so they can spend it on things they want.

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Myron Thompson Conservative Wild Rose, AB

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to this two to three page document, although three pages may be stretching it a little, which would authorize the spending of 4.5 billion taxpayer dollars. I understand that it took up the back of a napkin under the leadership of the leader of the New Democratic Party and his finance minister, Buzz Hargrove, along with the Prime Minister who managed to put this little document together with no plan.

I have been listening to the speeches and I do not want to repeat a lot of things. I just want to say how pleased and proud I am of the member for Medicine Hat, the member from Peace River and our finance crew who worked on the finance committee and who talked about changing and raising the standard of living.

I have visited with several families in my riding. Some families have four kids and the mom and dad are struggling like one would not believe just to make ends meet. These families are trying to keep up a standard of living that is steadily going down and down. It is a real problem. Surely at this time of the year, following the income tax payments, members must realize how many constituents they have in their riding who are in serious trouble with Revenue Canada because they cannot come up with the extra money required to pay the taxes.

Taxes are killing us in this country. It is killing small business. It is hurting like crazy. It is slowing down that standard of living. I am proud of our boys who work in the finance committee. I am also very proud of our member from Red Deer who works on the environment committee and who has solid plans to present as to how to deal with these situations.

The government wants to spend up to $10 billion but I do not think it has a solid plan in place on where it is going to spend that. That is amazing. The Liberals talk about Kyoto and other things but it has no definite plan laid out as to how the money will be spent. They talk about throwing money toward the military. I am extremely proud of our critic on the military who just spoke.

I have been here 12 years and I look at the justice issues. For 12 years we have talked about a shortage of RCMP officers. I have 16 RCMP detachments in my rural riding and all of them are short of people. The penitentiaries in my area and in other places outside of my area are always short of personnel to take care of the penitentiaries. It is getting completely out of hand. Drugs and prisoners are in control of penitentiaries. Guards and personnel are slowly losing the battle. We do not seem to be interested in improving the situation with more personnel, better equipment and so on.

We have had very testy situations at border crossings since 9/11. How do we deal with this? The border closures made absolutely no sense at the ports. We know containers are coming in without being inspected. When I was at the Port Erie border crossing I watched trucks coming through and no one could tell me at the crossing what was on the trucks. They were coming into Ontario and being unloaded. A tracer was put on the truck but when the truck was found it was empty. They would issue a fine of $400 and send the truck back to the states.

We really have a shortage of people at our border and yet we are talking about protecting Canadians and the safety and security of our nation. One of the most elementary duties of our job in this place is to ensure we provide the country with laws that protect those very things.

I have been here for 12 years and we continue to talk about our children. Every year it comes up at budget time on how we are going to improve the situation. Child porn has been talked about since I came here in 1994. It has been a topic of conversation for nearly 12 years. It is improving somewhat but it is not because of what happens in this place. It is improving because of our dedicated police officers who are fighting it tooth and nail and doing an excellent job of it. I am very pleased with those people who are working in that category but we are not helping. We do not even have a national strategy with another international program to deal with child pornography. It is not getting better.

Age of consent is something that has been brought up in the House a number of times over the last 12 years. We want to raise the age of consent. They know that these are the things Canadians are looking for to happen. Why does it not happen? We are still debating this whole issue year after year.

Without a doubt, I do not think there is any member who would not believe it for a moment that drug abuse across the country is completely out of touch with reality. We have a number of people who are engaged in crystal meth. Very dangerous drugs are spreading like mad. Yet we still have no national drug strategy of any kind to battle this thing.

Our answer is to set up stations where persons can get their drugs, clean needles and everything so we can help them with their habit. Instead of helping them get out of the habit, we help them through bleach programs in penitentiaries.

I find it amazing when we look at the policies of Correctional Service Canada. It is zero tolerance for drugs. Yet every penitentiary in this country has more drugs in it than any street in any city in our country. We have talked about it for 12 years, but we do not accomplish anything.

We have come up with Bill C-48, the budget bill from the wonderful NDP which also has no plan. It is going to do something about education, housing, and correcting the situation on the reserves. These are good ideas and good things to do. I certainly support them and they are the top priority on our list. However, the members in my party, who work on these committees, have a concrete plan that they are trying to push forward. I see no plan coming out Bill C-48. I see $4.6 billion be spent.

Every year in the budget, we hear about money going toward education, housing, correcting the situation on the reserves, and the environment, but it is not any better today. It is still just as bad as ever. Where does all that money go? Where is the planning? Where are the procedures? Lay it out for me. Do I want people to live with a roof over their heads? Absolutely. Who would not want that?

I look at the waste. My goodness, there was a committee going around the world, and I think that has been stopped, spending lots of taxpayers' dollars trying to figure out what to do about prostitution.

Look at the gun registry. It has nearly a $2 billion expenditure and we do not have an accounting of exactly where that money went. Wait until that audit comes out. Do we think ad scam was bad? Wait until we get the audit of the gun registry. All of this has been going on for 12 years. Budget after budget have said the same things over and over, but it is no different. Out we come with another budget saying the same things and the NDP is trying to enhance it by saying the same things that have been said for 12 years.

Where is the concrete plan? When are we going to buckle down and use the money to get the job done instead of spending it on more bureaucracy? When are we going to get to the mean and potatoes, and start getting the job done? We cannot do it the way we are operating.

I just came back from my riding. I was even evacuated from my own house because of the floods. The flooding in Alberta is horrendous. Farms and ranches are under water. They are facing a real tragedy. What did I hear on the news this morning? The government is considering help. Considering, my eye. It should be an automatic thing. These are Canadians who are hurting. There is nothing to consider. It is time to sit down and determine what we are going to do for these people, but the government does not do that.

I went through four years of drought with the farmers in my riding. Not one penny ever reached them. They have gone through all kinds of BSE problems. The government comes up with program after program, but too many are not benefiting from anything.

Promises are going out and the bureaucracy is working to instigate these promises, but there is nothing happening. The agriculture industry is really in trouble, now that it is all under water, not just in Alberta but in Manitoba. The member from the NDP who spoke ought to be talking about the flooding and the tragedies that are happening.

I am so proud that the leader of my party has a vision for this country. That vision is loud and clear. That message will get out. One of these days every Canadian will see that planned vision. When they vote for Stephen Harper, it will be the best vote they ever cast in Canadian history.

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Dick Harris Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Madam Speaker, my colleague from Wild Rose tells it like it is in this House. He talked about the inaction of the Liberal government over the last 12 years. It appears to me that the member for Wild Rose has described the stark reality of the Liberal government over the last 12 years.

The Liberals are not in government because they have a concern for the country and a desire to make it better. They are in government, as is evidenced by their lack of attention to the many concerns that were brought up, simply to be in government.

The Liberals have not fixed the justice system in the 12 years they have been in government. The quality of life for the first nations in our country, despite the billions of dollars in programs that they have spent in that area, is no better now than it was 12 years ago. As a matter of fact, it could be argued that the quality of life among first nations in our country is worse now than it was 12 years ago, despite the billions of dollars that were spent, and the NDP has supported the Liberals these last 12 years.

I want to ask the member for Wild Rose if he would comment on the deal that was made on the back of a napkin between the Liberals and the NDP. What possible reasoning could the NDP members have to now support a government that only weeks ago they accused of being corrupt and undermining the well-being of our country? What possible reason could they have to support the Liberals?

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Myron Thompson Conservative Wild Rose, AB

Madam Speaker, I find it amazing when we look at the record. Some members of the NDP have been here long enough to know that the very items that the member talked about, and I mentioned in my speech, have been in the budget year after year.

The hon. member talked about reserves. In 1996 and 1997, a final report came out from a group of natives from the grassroots level. There was some hard work done across the country by a number of grassroots people who were begging for some relief in terms of poverty, unemployment, suicide and addiction problems. Every year the budget comes out with big announcements from the finance minister about the dollars going toward these programs, but every year it does not happen and the following year it is in the budget again.

I do not know how the NDP members thought for a moment that they could trust a government that has been in power for 12 years, when it has not done anything to deal with education, housing, Indian reserves and the environment. Now, all of a sudden, the NDP members are in full support of a government they felt was so corrupt and so bad that it should be thrown out not too long ago when they cast their ballots. I do not understand how the NDP members can think for a moment that the Liberal government will accomplish anything.

The only thing I can say to the NDP members is that I am glad they have that big guy from Winnipeg in their caucus because they will need a big guy to pull the knife out when the Liberals double-cross their party.

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Madam Speaker, the member referred to last year's surplus of $12 billion. I suggest to the member that if there was a surplus of $12 billion last year and if we gave a $12 billion tax cut next year as the member suggested, and the following year the surplus was only $2 billion, that would put us back into deficit.

I am not sure if the member is prepared to go back into deficit. I want to remind him that since the government took over from the Conservatives, about $60 billion worth of debt has been paid down at a savings to Canadian taxpayers of about $3 billion each and every year. That $3 billion has been available to reinvest in important programs such as health care and all the other initiatives, including the $100 billion tax cut that has been delivered by the government. Is his party prepared to go back into deficit?

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Myron Thompson Conservative Wild Rose, AB

Madam Speaker, I believe that the member who just asked the question is talking about another speaker because that was not in my speech; however, I will answer the question.

This party is not prepared to go back into deficit. We are prepared to start doing something about the accountability, integrity and honesty of government. That is a real good place to start. It is so lacking over there that it is pathetic. Day after day there are more reports of unaccountable expenses. We need to get the priorities straight, set our priorities, and stop the wasteful spending. Just get rid of it and be more responsible to the taxpayers.

One farmer said it was very clear to him. He did not care what the policies are, but would the Conservatives give me some honesty if they get elected? I am prepared to say yes, the Conservative Party will give him some honesty.

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Dick Harris Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The member for Mississauga South, probably inadvertently, misled the House in his statement. He said the government had paid down $60 billion of debt. That is not true and the member knows that.

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Hon. Jean Augustine)

The member for Cariboo--Prince George knows that this is not a point of order. This is a point of debate. Resuming debate, the hon. member for Calgary Centre.

An Act to Authorize the Minister of Finance to Make Certain PaymentsGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Lee Richardson Conservative Calgary South Centre, AB

Madam Speaker, I was reading early this morning in the newspaper that Prime Minister Martin said Friday that it was time for Conservative leader Stephen Harper and his party to stop playing politics and help pass amendments to the federal budget, and to ensure municipalities get millions of badly needed funding.