House of Commons Hansard #58 of the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was sudan.

Topics

Situation in SudanGovernment Orders

9:35 p.m.

Bloc

Johanne Deschamps Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Mr. Chair, at this point, I would like to add that the Bloc Québécois wants a multilateral intervention in Darfur. The Bloc Québécois is therefore pleased that the mission is being transferred from the African Union to the UN.

Situation in SudanGovernment Orders

9:35 p.m.

Macleod Alberta

Conservative

Ted Menzies ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of International Cooperation

Mr. Chair, I am pleased to have the opportunity to participate in this our second take note debate on the situation in Sudan.

I know that many of my colleagues in the House have serious concerns about the plight of the Sudanese, and the fact that we are having two debates in the space of six months is a clear demonstration of how concerned we all are. Throughout much of its independence Sudan has been involved in a civil war, and as we all know only too well, the Sudanese people are paying a huge price as a result of this.

This government understands that Canadians are deeply concerned by the human suffering in Sudan and we are committed to working closely with the United Nations and with the African Union to find a solution. In fact, we are currently working with the rest of the global community to help Sudan find a way to stabilize the country, because the deteriorating security and overwhelming obstacles to obtaining the most basic humanitarian assistance simply cannot go on.

In order to put an end to this human suffering, Canada has been involved in intense international efforts to persuade Sudan to accept a UN peace support operation in Darfur. At the same time, Canada and the international community continue to support the efforts of the African Union mission because we all know very well we need a force on the ground to protect civilians and to facilitate the work of humanitarian organizations.

Darfur is just one region in an entire country that is suffering. In the southern part of Sudan the limited infrastructure that existed before the fight began has been destroyed. Displaced people in war affected parts of Sudan are facing food shortages as well as constant worry because of the presence of land mines. These insidious weapons not only threaten their lives but also limit their ability to use the land productively. In Khartoum, the capital of Sudan, there is the largest concentration of displaced persons in the world, many of whom live in camps with no basic services.

For this reason, Canada's strategy in looking for solutions takes in the entire country. As my colleague the Minister of International Cooperation and Minister for la Francophonie and Official Languages mentioned earlier this evening, CIDA has committed more than $100 million to help with humanitarian assistance, peace rehabilitation, and construction.

In April 2005 at the Oslo Donors' Conference on Sudan, we made a commitment of $90 million over two years. In May of this year my colleague announced an additional $20 million for humanitarian assistance to Sudan and to the region.

We continue to work with our international partners providing support for bodies such as UNICEF, the World Food Program, the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, and the International Committee of the Red Cross. These organizations deliver humanitarian assistance in what can only be described as the most challenging of circumstances. They do it wherever there is need throughout Sudan and we have seen some results. Some 105,000 people would be fed for one year; 500,000 displaced persons and refugees have received medical supplies; and 60,000 internally displaced persons have access to clean water and sanitary services. Is this enough? Absolutely not, but we need to continue our efforts in conjunction with the Sudanese government.

We have also seen results in reconstruction with important highways being de-mined, 20 counties having their schools rehabilitated, and 20,000 learning kits being delivered to elementary students and teachers, just to name a few.

The Government of Canada through CIDA has supported the comprehensive peace agreement to bring an end to the north-south civil war in 2005. The goal of this agreement is to stabilize the entire region and bring peace to Sudan, but we understand that an already serious security situation in Darfur continues to deteriorate and a settlement in eastern Sudan continues to elude our grasp.

There is no doubt that the people of Sudan still have significant challenges ahead of them, but these challenges reinforce our belief that the north-south peace agreement is the key to finding durable peace for Sudan, and by extension, for its neighbours.

We are very encouraged to see that there is a more stable government in southern Sudan now that is helping to bring an end to the decades old conflict in northern Uganda.

In conclusion, the challenge of rebuilding Sudan, including Darfur, is monumental, but there is no doubt that it can and must be done. When the crisis in Darfur subsides, refugees and displaced persons will be able to return to their homes and they will need help from the international community to reconstruct their fragile communities. In the rest of Sudan there will be substantial work ahead in areas such as promoting the reform of the justice system, helping rebuild the security system, reducing the traffic in arms, and reinforcing the institutes of government and community life. There is no doubt that the people of Sudan, ravaged by years of war, will need our help to achieve sustainable peace and to rebuild their country.

This government is committed to working with our Canadian and international partners to help the people of Sudan. We do so by supporting Canada's core values of freedom, democracy, human rights and the rule of law.

As the Prime Minister made quite clear when he spoke of Sudan at la Francophonie conference in Bucharest, Canada is ready to play its part.

Situation in SudanGovernment Orders

9:45 p.m.

Liberal

Susan Kadis Liberal Thornhill, ON

Mr. Chair, is the hon. member aware that those often very powerful people, many who failed to intervene in Rwanda, now flat out realize how wrong they were and bemoan their lack of courage? As well I ask him if he equates a situation with genocide, and already serious genocide, where is he getting his information from? Why is this being minimized this evening?

Situation in SudanGovernment Orders

9:45 p.m.

Conservative

Ted Menzies Conservative Macleod, AB

Mr. Chair, the hon. member would be the only one who would assume I was trying to trivialize anything to do with the humanitarian disaster that is going on in all of Sudan. I take exception to that.

I spoke very sincerely and very seriously about how serious the situation is, what this government has done and what this government will do. I would also like to question some of the comments here this evening about development work and rebuilding in Darfur.

The reason we are having such a struggle is that it is a very, very insecure environment. The present Sudanese government is not very welcoming to us as it believes that we are interfering. In fact, we are there trying to help. To suggest that this government is trivializing something like this, I find that comment unacceptable.

Situation in SudanGovernment Orders

9:45 p.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

Mr. Chair, I want to go back to some of the ideas that have been put forward here and go back to my comments earlier. If in fact we had the African Union at a point of desperation that they would have to rely on the Sudanese government, is it not time to step up and provide more aid? We have provided some, and I acknowledge that. Is it not time to look at how we distribute our own resources?

It is important to note that Canada did have the offer, if we go back to the Congo, to intervene there, but we turned it down. That was not with this current government, but we turned that down. Why? We turned it down to commit to Afghanistan.

One has to ask at some point during the debate how we are distributing our resources both as a country and globally. We found out this summer that we have 1,500 troops. We had to get to the minister's binder to find that out, but we found it out. We know it; others have mentioned it. We really have to examine what we are doing. It is very nice to have the laundry list, but we have the capacity. We could be supplying troops in other parts of Africa where there is peacekeeping and free up more for the African Union. I have not heard that idea. We have to examine these things.

I hear the minister saying that we are working hard and tirelessly. I am sure he gets up every morning and works on this file. I just do not see the results. We need to see more.

I wonder if the member would like to comment on some of those ideas.

Situation in SudanGovernment Orders

9:50 p.m.

Conservative

Ted Menzies Conservative Macleod, AB

Mr. Chair, I share the hon. member's concern that we need to help, but we do not need to blunder in blindly just to say that we are helping.

I find a real conflict in some of the comments made by our hon. colleagues in the NDP, who have suggested that we should pull our troops out of Afghanistan where the government of that country has asked us to help it its citizens and to bring peace. The NDP then turns the other cheek and says that we should send our troops into Darfur. I do not follow that logic. As our Prime Minister has commented, this is not the time to cut and run from Afghanistan.

We need to recognize the humanitarian disaster in Darfur, but we cannot send troops in when they are not welcome and when they would be seen as an absolute interference. This would create more harm than the good they could provide.

We would love it if NGOs were able to provide assistance, but I would feel quite guilty if I was the one asking them to walk in to this kind of a situation and deliver aid because their lives would be at risk.

Situation in SudanGovernment Orders

9:50 p.m.

Liberal

Brent St. Denis Liberal Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON

Mr. Chair, I have a couple of questions on the very point about going in without an invitation. I am a supporter of the UN. The world has spoken through a UN resolution. We protect our own society when it comes to domestic disputes in private homes. Under the right to protect, the time has come for the world to take a stand. Notwithstanding the president of Sudan's position that the UN is not welcome, the time has come to go in.

How would the parliamentary secretary square the imperatives to protect people as we would in our own country with his position that we have to wait to be invited? That is a very difficult position to defend given the imperatives of the situation.

Situation in SudanGovernment Orders

9:50 p.m.

Conservative

Ted Menzies Conservative Macleod, AB

Mr. Chair, I agree if the United Nations saw that it was time to go in. I can see us supporting that movement. The Prime Minister, the foreign affairs minister, and the defence minister have made it very clear that we do not have a lot of extra troops because our troops are engaged elsewhere right now. We are trying to support the troops looking after the mission they are engaged in now. To take away from that at this immediate time would not be fair to the people of Afghanistan.

We support the UN resolution. That should absolutely happen. This is not the environment for Canada, as some members in the opposition have suggested, to walk in unilaterally and impose our form of democracy on them.

Situation in SudanGovernment Orders

9:50 p.m.

NDP

Alexa McDonough NDP Halifax, NS

Mr. Chair, it is utterly unbelievable that government members keep saying that everybody in the House is saying that, unilaterally, Canada should go in to Sudan no matter what happens.

On what possible basis could the parliamentary secretary assert in the House, where truth telling is supposed to be a requirement, that any member from the NDP has advocated that Canada should unilaterally talk about invading Sudan as a foreign power, when he knows that is not true?

Situation in SudanGovernment Orders

9:55 p.m.

Conservative

Ted Menzies Conservative Macleod, AB

Mr. Chair, I ask the hon. member for Halifax not to read anything more into my comments than what was actually said. I never suggested that anyone from the NDP said that. I was questioning the NDP's motives in asking us to cut and run from Afghanistan, then turning around and sending our troops into another conflict.

Unless I was sadly mistaken, I heard it from the Liberals and I think many of my colleagues heard the same comment and we were all very shocked by it. In fact, it incited some enthusiasm. The hon. Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, who stood up and vocally struck back quite loudly against that suggestion.

Situation in SudanGovernment Orders

9:55 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

Mr. Chair, I will be splitting my time with my colleague, the member for Ajax—Pickering.

I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak in the House this evening, but I am not pleased that it is necessary. We all know that during the summer there was an increase in the pillage and atrocities that have been taking place in Darfur. It is estimated that 400,000 have died and 3.5 million people are in a desperate situation.

I want to come at this a little differently. Yesterday I had the opportunity to be in a situation where prayers were recited for the six million people who died during the Holocaust in Germany. In the course of that period of time, a story was told about 93 women who were asked to service the Germany military. As it happened, during the course of the event, they poisoned themselves and died.

What struck me was the conspiracy of silence and complicity that existed at the time. Given the fact that there are such violent human rights atrocities taking place today, there still is a level of conspiracy and complicity of silence.

We have heard much about what is happening to the women of Darfur, the rapes, the sexual slavery, the torture, the abductions, the destruction of villages and the fact that a disproportionate number of women are in refugee camps. We have heard about the difficulty, the social stigmatization, the destruction of the social infrastructure of their lives, the inability to get help and the fear of being reported. We know there is a genocide taking place where people are hungry and are not having their needs addressed.

We hear words from the other side of what is being done. I do not deny that there are things being done, but it is simply not enough. The genocide in Darfur, and my colleague from the NDP referenced it, must be ended before it destabilizes the rest of Africa. The malignancy of Darfur has now spread to Chad and is moving into the Central African Republic as well. Are we working with France? Are we considering putting UN peacekeepers there or are we being told that we simply do not have the resources?

We are now in the situation where we are looking at appointing a new secretary-general of the United Nations. I want to see a secretary-general whose primary focus will be on ending this genocide, and it is a genocide in Africa.

We have heard much about the responsibility to protect from genocides, war crimes, ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity. While there is wide agreement with the principle, the deteriorating situation, and it is deteriorating as we speak tonight, illustrates a gap between stating a principle and having the political will to act upon it.

We have heard much about the Afghanistan situation, but in the riding of Winnipeg South Centre I hear far more about the importance of Canada participating in Darfur. I hear far more about the concerns there. It is important that we take much more concerted, organized action, that diplomatic words are simply not enough. We must take a much harder line with the UN and with other countries.

Situation in SudanGovernment Orders

10 p.m.

Calgary East Alberta

Conservative

Deepak Obhrai ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs

Mr. Chair, tonight we have heard a lot of words articulated in this debate but what assaults people's sensibilities is the member for Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca who defies logic. In this House tonight he called for an invasion of a United Nations country. It is here in the blues where he says “If the member wants to call it an invasion, it is an invasion”.

Those were his words.

My question for the hon. member is why the hon. member for Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, when he was a parliamentary secretary in the previous government, never uttered a word? He sat there stone-faced. Where was his emotions then? Why is he now twisting the debate and saying that no one is interested in Darfur when we have logically laid out the government's plans, which were articulated by Minister of Foreign Affairs and by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of International Cooperation?

I remember sitting in the House and watching the hon. member for Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca who was absolutely stunned. He had no words. At that time Darfur did not even exist for him. Today he calls for an invasion. What hypocrisy. I would appreciate some comments from the member.

Situation in SudanGovernment Orders

10 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

Mr. Chair, I would suggest that my colleague opposite was not paying much attention.

My colleague from Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca has been an outspoken critic and advocate for resolving the situation in Darfur. His eloquence has prevailed widely. He has impacted government policy when there were no UN resolutions mandating us to resolve the situation. The Canadian government responded to the African Union before there were UN resolutions asking us to do it.

The member has been in the vanguard of trying to address and advocate for the people of Darfur. I resent any suggestion that it is otherwise.

Situation in SudanGovernment Orders

10 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Chair Conservative Royal Galipeau

The hon. member for Gatineau for a quick question.

Situation in SudanGovernment Orders

10 p.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

Mr. Chair, the situation in Darfur is critical, if not genocidal.

What does my colleague think Canada and other countries that really want to help resolve the situation in Darfur should do? What should we do to make the government in Khartoum face reality and become a positive player in fixing the problem in Sudan?

Situation in SudanGovernment Orders

10:05 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

Mr. Chair, many have spoken tonight on what we can do. I made the suggestion very clearly in my brief remarks that we should be actively supporting a UN force going into the neighbouring countries of Chad and the Central African Republic. We should take that first step if we are unable to move into Sudan itself.

In terms of implementing the responsibility to protect, we need to move aggressively through diplomatic action and commitment of our own resources and forces.

Situation in SudanGovernment Orders

10:05 p.m.

NDP

Alexa McDonough NDP Halifax, NS

Mr. Chair, I want to reference an excellent brief that was probably shared with all parliamentarians from a number of highly respected NGOs. It makes the specific recommendation that Canada commit to supporting a UN peacekeeping mission in Darfur with adequate resources and a comprehensive mandate for the protection of civilians.

Would the member address that very specific recommendation? Would she not agree that what is being asked is that Canada now commit to such a UN peacekeeping force, not that we invade a foreign country, not that we be unmindful of the UN Security Council's motion, but rather that we commit so that we clearly signal that we are prepared to be part of a UN mission as one of the ways of bringing the pressure on the Sudanese government that is so desperately needed?

Situation in SudanGovernment Orders

10:05 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

Mr. Chair, I agree completely with what my colleague opposite has said. The important thing is the willingness to commit to move in.

Situation in SudanGovernment Orders

10:05 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

Mr. Chair, after 1994 in Rwanda, the west tried to excuse its failure by saying that it simply did not know, that the genocide that occurred in Rwanda was something that was a surprise to it and therefore excused its actions.

While we can debate whether the west should have known or did know, the fact is that the situation in the Sudan is very different today. We do know that a human tragedy is unfolding in the Sudan.

While the facts have been stated many times, it bears referencing them again in light of this debate. We know that more than 200,000 people have died. We know that some estimate that the number is near 400,000. We also know that 2.5 million people are internally displaced and living in official camps or squatter areas. Thousands of women have been abducted and systematically raped. Thousands of children have been forced into conflict. Eleven aid workers have been killed in the last three months alone, all Sudanese nationals, and not one perpetrator of war crimes against humanity has been brought to justice.

It would seem that the world has forgotten Africa. Because there are no vested interests, one may argue, other than the interests of humanity, the entire sub-Saharan region has largely been ignored and not been the benefactor of western support in the way in which it deserves and so badly needs.

Canada cannot stand idly by and be spectators to atrocity, particularly when we know and fully understand the extent of what is happening in the Sudan and the extent of human tragedy that is there. Canada has a role to play.

Canada should be proud of the role that it has played to date. In fact, the previous Liberal government set aside $366 million for the Sudan. We are currently number three in the world in development assistance. The current government has added over $40 million to that assistance.

The reality is that the world lacks political will and it needs leadership. It needs Canada to step forward and take decisive action and to say that what is happening in the Sudan is not acceptable and that we will not just accept words, that we will not engage in rhetoric and talk away while thousands of people are living in unbelievable situations, thousands of people are dying and women are being raped. We must take action.

In that regard I would suggest that there are four things that need to be done, three of which in the immediate term, one of which over the longer term. The first is that Canada needs to be at the forefront, the vanguard of pushing for diplomacy in allowing UN peacekeeping forces to get on the ground in Darfur. It is clear by the situation that is there today that the African Union is simply not up to the task of protecting the public in the Sudan and that UN forces are badly needed.

We also know that the African Union, which leads me to my second point, is poorly resourced. It is running out of money, it is running out of time and it is running out of the ability to stay there. We need to, in the near term particularly, support those African Union forces with special tactical teams and with the resources they need to be successful in the Sudan.

The third point is that it is my opinion that we need to begin preparing our forces today for a mission in Sudan, a mission that must happen. That means we need to set aside the resources and the troops in order to make that possible and to begin training those forces today, not leaving it until later.

The fourth point is an extension of that third point. It is longer term but I hope it is not that much of a longer term proposition. We must enter the Sudan. UN peacekeeping forces must be on the ground and Canada should be at the front of that effort.

Even if the Sudanese government refuses UN peacekeeping force, we have a moral obligation to enter and to protect those who are there. The United Nations charter has two sections which are often contradictory: one that talks about the imperative to protect the individual right to self-determination, and the other says that we should not interfere with the affairs of other states. In my opinion the first one takes precedent. We do have the moral authority and, in fact, we have the legal authority.

I would point out the fact that under Security Council Resolution 1706 and the Axworthy Responsibility to Protect, R2P, doctrine adopted by the UN a year ago, we absolutely have the ability to go there.

We need to refocus. We need to ensure that our foreign policy is focused on peacekeeping, protecting citizens and playing the traditional role that Canada has so proudly played. It is time to act and we have the moral imperative to do so.

Situation in SudanGovernment Orders

10:10 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

Mr. Chair, I listened with interest to my colleague's comments. We keep hearing the word peacekeeping in an environment where there is no peace to keep.

What is the member's view of the actions required of the few Canadian Forces members who would, potentially, be there? How does he see those actions being carried out, in what manner and with what level of force?

Situation in SudanGovernment Orders

10:10 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

Mr. Chair, my opinion is that we need to bring peace to the Sudan. We need to offer protection to its citizens. We have a moral obligation to intervene where genocide is occurring. The reality is that a horrible tragedy is unfolding there and I believe it is Canada's responsibility to step up and say that cannot occur.

We have intervened in many places. We have done so boldly and we have done so proudly, and oftentimes we have had a direct vested interest to do so. While it may be true that we do not have a vested interest in the Sudan, the human tragedy that is unfolding there should compel each and every one of us to say that we belong there. We need to offer the protection to those citizens, to those women, who are undergoing tremendous tragedy.

Situation in SudanGovernment Orders

10:10 p.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

Mr. Chair, the situation in Darfur, the topic of tonight's debate, constitutes a horrible humanitarian disaster. Unfortunately, such disasters are also happening in places other than Darfur, but since that is the subject under debate, I shall return to that issue.

I have a question for my colleague. This crisis has been going on since the 1980s. This has been a catastrophe for over 20 years. The situation has become even more serious since 2003, leading to an imposed peace treaty in May 2006. However, international players now recognize that these efforts failed, since there are still too many people being killed under fire by individuals who lead a government that does not respect human rights.

I would like to know what my colleague proposes as a solution to lead the government of Khartoum to genuinely participate in a process to find a resolution?

Situation in SudanGovernment Orders

10:10 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

Mr. Chair, on the question of the current peace agreement that is there, we know that it is not working and that it has failed in every possible way. The reality is that the African Union, which is there to enforce that agreement, is both poorly resourced and does not seem to have the will or ability to stop the genocide that is happening there.

I believe the only answer will be a United Nations peacekeeping force on the ground in Darfur to enforce peace and to ensure that human rights, human life and human dignity are protected in the area. That is the only option.

When we look at any other potentiality, it is simply apparent that the Sudanese government is not willing, on its own, to do anything. In fact, it is allowing this genocide to occur. It is becoming more and more apparent, in fact I think it is absolutely impossible to argue, that the African Union will do anything effective to stop it.

This debate comes down to one conclusion, and if that conclusion is that the United Nations peacekeeping force is needed, then we need to show the political will that Canada is willing step up to the plate and act, to go into this area and show that the terrible tragedy that is occurring there is not something that we will stand for or tolerate.

Situation in SudanGovernment Orders

10:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Deputy Chair Conservative Royal Galipeau

I am sad to tell the hon. member for Ottawa Centre that there is less than a minute for both the question and the answer.

Situation in SudanGovernment Orders

10:15 p.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

Mr. Chair, it takes six months to put a significant number of troops together. I would like the member's take on whether if we are going to do something, we need to do it now. It would take six months to do so and now is the time.