Debates of Oct. 30th, 2006

Criminal Code

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I listened with pleasure to the speech of my colleague. It reminded me of a constituent who has won the nomination and will seek a seat in the provincial legislature. This constituent worked for many years as a police officer with the Saskatoon police force.

When I had a conversation with her, she told me that she highly endorsed raising the age of protection. She told me that frequently what happens is a person builds a relationship with a 14 year old girl and pretends to care about her and love her, et cetera. Then the person uses that relationship and requires the 14 year to earn money, thereby allowing the 14 year old to be sexually exploited. This is what the current police officer, hopefully soon to be an MLA in our provincial legislature, has told me.

Would the hon. member comment on this since she has a family member who serves on the police and deals with similar situations? It seems to me quite a horrible thing for someone to turn a relationship of trust into pure deception and sexual exploitation. I understand why moving the age of consent from 14 to 16 would protect people in such situations.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Mr. Speaker, that is a very compelling story, one which we hear over and over again. The problem is whether we sit in meetings or we hear different people talk, there is always the connotation that it is okay to do this. Exploiting young people is not okay. Exploiting old people is not okay. Exploiting anyone is not okay.

Bill C-22 speaks specifically to the sexual exploitation of our youth. I have talked with police officers who are very well educated and supposedly very powerful people. They have made the comment that these young people live on the street, that they do not live at home, or that they do not want to hear this any more or that they do not want to hear our arguments.

What is happening today with Bill C-22 is we are standing in Parliament and we are very clearly saying, as parliamentarians that there will be no more sexual exploitation of young children. We are saying that we will stand in our courts of law and protect our children. That is a very honourable thing to do.

When we hear these stories about people doing these things to young people, it comes from a lack of honour. It is a lack of integrity. It is a lack of commitment to the Canadian value. Our country was built on a foundation of Canadian values. Those values are that people can live, breathe and be free in a country where they can grow, get jobs, become educated and grow their families. Canadian values are all about that. In Canada the vulnerable will be protected because we respect the vulnerable.

When my hon. colleague speaks about the things that happen to young people, we as parliamentarians have the authority and the ability to stop it today.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have this opportunity to speak to the bill. Before I get into some of my detailed comments, I want to say something about the general nature of this debate.

First, the Prime Minister took the opposition to task and said that it was causing a delay on this bill. We should be very clear and put it on the record, as our justice critic, the member for Windsor—Tecumseh, did earlier, that the government tabled this bill back in June of this year, but it was only called for debate today. Therefore, the accusation and allegation that somehow the opposition is holding up the bill is absolutely ludicrous. This is the first day the government has called this important bill for debate.

My second point is a Liberal member rose to ask why we did not get on with passing the bill and stop the filibustering. What filibustering? We just started debating this bill a couple of hours ago. I know the Liberals put forward a proposal, with a number of other bills, to approve the bill on raising the age of consent with no debate or vote. Instead, we would have an omnibus motion and pass it. Maybe that is acceptable to some people, but I beg to differ and protest.

The reason we come to this place is because we are legislators. We come here to debate public policy. The more contentious and far-reaching that public policy is, the more we have a responsibility to engage in genuine debate and to hear from Canadians who have different points of view.

I also take issue with the Liberals who are somehow trying to claim there is filibustering going on. They want the bill to pass with no discussion, no debate and no vote. That is wrong. We should be debating this because it is a very important bill. There are a number of very important questions raised in the bill that Canadians want to hear about and provide input.

There seems to be a lot of political posturing taking place. In fact, I notice there is a very careful characterization that this is not a bill about the age of consent, but is now a bill about the protection of children, which is a different characterization from how it was originally put forward. Clearly what we are debating is the Criminal Code, whether it is a good idea to raise the age of consent from 14 to 16 and what would the consequences be if we do that.

Earlier today our justice critic, the member for Windsor—Tecumseh, spoke to the bill. He laid out some of the concerns the NDP caucus, as well as the fact that if it went to committee, the NDP would seek amendments.

I want to address my remarks and bring forward another side of the debate, which is whether we are willing to hear from young people about their sexual activity, what is consensual and what is not. I am very concerned with the attitude of the government, which is so paternalistic, that young people will be shut out of this debate. If the bill goes to committee, it is incredibly important that we hear from them because we know sexual activity takes place. The average age of 14.1 years for girls and it is slightly different for boys.

I should point out, Mr. Speaker, that I will be sharing my time with the member for Winnipeg North.

We know sexual activity takes place and it is very important that we hear the views of young people and what they think we should do. The point I want to make is this is now being presented as a bill for protection for children, but there already are protections in the Criminal Code, which ensure that exploitation, coercion and violence against young people do not take place.

The critical thing here is that we must differentiate between what is harmful, exploitative, violent and coercive against what is actually consenting activity. As Osgoode law professor Alan Young has said, this bill can be looked as an example of the sort of symbolic politics that take place where legislation is proposed in order to make people feel good about something. We have seen this now on a number of occasions with bills on crime from the government, but they do not necessarily accomplish any change in terms of what will take place. This bill may have a negative impact.

The Canadian AIDS Society said in its position statement:

[We are] concerned that increasing the age of consent could result in young people being more secretive about their sexual practices and not seeking out the information they need.

It also stated that:

The Criminal Code of Canada already protects people under the age of 18 from sexual relationships that happen under circumstances of exploitation, pornography, prostitution or in relationships of trust, authority or dependency.

Let us be very clear. These protections already exist within our Criminal Code. Again I come back to the need for us to be incredibly cautious in hearing from young people about what they believe the impact of this bill would be on their lives and on the realities they face.

The Canadian AIDS Society believes that the Canadian government should be focusing on promoting consistent and comprehensive HIV-AIDS information in sexual health education across Canada. It said that the best way to protect and support youth is to ensure that education and services are available to inform them about their rights and options, and the risks and benefits of engaging in sexual activity. Educating youth to make informed choices that are right for them is better addressed through parental guidance and comprehensive sexual health education than by using the Criminal Code.

We have a similar position being put forward by the Canadian Federation for Sexual Health. It said that there was no evidence that increased restriction on individual rights would increase protection of youth from sexual exploitation or provide any other benefits sufficient to justify the intrusion into personal privacy and consensual activity. Rather, the prospect of legal sanction and third party disclosure could seriously discourage youth from assessing preventative and therapeutic health services and other forms of information and assistance. My colleague brought up this point earlier today.

We will be seeking amendments to this bill in committee in terms of the differentiation that now exists in the Criminal Code around anal intercourse as opposed to other sexual activities that we think are discriminatory. That should be changed. We need to ensure as well that there is protection for young people when they need to report sexually transmitted diseases.

I want to put on the record that this is an important debate. I have a lot of reservations about this bill and I do not support it in principle. I do think it is important for witnesses to be heard, particularly young people because we need to hear their point of view. We need to be realistic in what we do. We would be willing to look at the provisions that actually exist now in the Criminal Code and focus the debate on whether or not those provisions are inadequate. We need to focus on what to do to ensure there is no exploitation, coercion or violence against young people because those protections are already in the Criminal Code.

I look forward to that debate. I hope it is a genuine debate and not just about political posturing. Canadians want us to honestly and frankly discuss this issue. Maybe at some point there will be a consensus. It is important that all points of view be heard.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I listened to the hon. member with great interest. Quite frankly, I thought she started off well but then kind of drifted off toward the end.

This bill is about protecting our children. I do not want children telling me whether or not they feel they should be protected. As adults and as legislators we have an obligation to protect them under the Criminal Code. I have travelled a fair portion of this country, including British Columbia where the member is from, and I know Canadians want their children to be protected. They do not care if their children do not feel they should be protected.

I would like to know if the member thinks it is all right for middle aged men or middle aged women to target children 14 and 15 years old for sexual relationships on the basis of consent? I do not care if children 14 and 15 years old consent to it. It should not be a defence in Canadian courts. I would like to know if the hon. member thinks that is a suitable defence for an adult to use in court?

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the question the member has raised is why we need to have this debate. Frankly, I am really surprised to hear the comment that he does not think that we should be hearing from young people, that somehow they do not have a point of view, that they do not have well-informed opinions, that sexual activity does not take place, and that somehow only those of a certain age are in a position to make a decision or a determination about what is consensual or not. I do not agree with that.

I think that young people should be engaged in this debate and we should be listening to them about what actually takes place. If we are here to sort of bury our heads in the sand and say that sexual activity either between young people or with some years in difference does not take place, and some of that activity is consenting, then I think we are fooling ourselves.

I will be the first one here to say that of course there are appalling and horrible situations of violence, coercion and exploitation. We see that in prostitution and the sex industry. That is why we have laws to ensure that does not take place. That is why it is important to have those protections to ensure that young people are not exploited.

However, this is a question that involves sexual activity of young people that is consenting and I think for anybody to deny that is just fooling themselves.

I realize there are different points of view and I realize there are very strongly held views, but my bottom line is that we have to hear from young people. We have to hear what they have to say. To somehow characterize that they do not know what they are talking about or there are not informed opinions out there, I think is very paternalistic and very condescending. We will, in the end, create harms in terms of the way young people view sexuality, their ability to come forward and talk about their sexuality, to get help when they need it, and not to be driven underground. Those are the concerns that I have. I believe that they are very legitimate. I believe that they need to be heard.

I realize that there are other members who will try and shut down the debate on sort of very moral grounds that they have. That is fine. They have a right to do that. However, I want to ensure that all these points of view are heard.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Royal Galipeau]

The hon. member for West Nova. There is one minute for both the question and the answer.

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I will be supporting this bill. I had reservations during the first debate, which was some time ago, but the close in age exception has made a difference for me. I agree with what the member said regarding the fact that debate is not a bad thing and there are probably some witnesses who should be heard. However, whether the individual is 14, 15 or 16 years old, could the member possibly see where it would be okay for a 40-year-old adult, even if not in a position of influence, to be in a relationship with somebody at the age of 14, 15 or 16? Could the member see such a possibility?

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Royal Galipeau]

There is 20 seconds to reply to that question.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I do not personally see that possibility. However, we are talking about near in age here and what that cutoff should be. That is where the debate needs to centre. We can always put forward extremes and take the debate there. What we need to do is hear from young people--

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Royal Galipeau]

Order, please.

It is my duty pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the question to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment is as follows: the hon. member for Labrador, Aboriginal Affairs.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, my constituency of Winnipeg North has a great deal to say about the topic at hand and many others that we are debating in the House of Commons.

I am very pleased to have the opportunity to join in the debate on Bill C-22. We are talking about legislation to amend the Criminal Code to raise the age of consent from 14 to 16 and to consider, in addition to that, a concept which is a close in age exception.

The House can tell by the speech of my colleague, the member for Vancouver East, that our caucus has spent a great deal of time thinking and talking about this issue. We have taken it very seriously. We bring to the table today differences of opinion that are respected by each of us. There is a bottom line for all of us in our caucus. We have no intention of supporting legislation whose sole purpose would be to criminalize the sexual activity of our young people. If that is the intention of the government in bringing this forward, we do not support it whatsoever.

We also, by virtue of the legislation, do not rule out the need for other initiatives that deal very much with the problems that have been articulated in the course of this debate. As my colleague from Vancouver East said, we must always focus on the need for education and support to ensure that our young people are able to make choices that are based on all the information and have supports in place to help them through some of life's most difficult challenges.

As a mother of a 17-year-old boy, I worry about this area constantly. I think about it in terms of what is the best prescription, what is the best legislative framework for ensuring that our kids are both protected when they are vulnerable, and also able to exert their independence and to make choices with the full knowledge that we have been able to instil in them up to that point.

I want to begin by saying there are no easy answers. There is a vigorous debate going on. All sides must be respected and I hope we do so in the chamber today. I, for one, will take a slightly different tack from my colleague, the member for Vancouver East, and actually give fairly unequivocal support to the bill before us.

I have given lots of consideration to the full issue of raising the age of consent from 14 to 16 and have consulted widely in my constituency. I can say without hesitation that the vast majority of people in my constituency, who think about these issues and are worried about various matters, want to see this change take place as long as we include in it the close in age exception.

The bill as we know it raises the age from 14 to 16. It includes the close in age exemption that would permit sexual activity with a partner who is less than five years older. We think that is a reasonable compromise for this issue, given where some of the Conservatives started out on this whole matter.

A number of years ago we dealt with this in the House on a private member's bill, when it was suggested that we simply raise the age of consent and make no consideration to the sexual activity of young people and to the fact that there are some relationships that actually take place that are meaningful at that age.

I would prefer if my son was not engaged in any activity that we are talking about at the age of 17, but I am not about to judge, nor am I about to accuse him. Certainly, I know that he is of an age now where I hope that I have given him enough of a base that he can make wise decisions and wise choices.

However, we do have an obligation as a Parliament to worry about a much broader issue, and that is the question of sexual exploitation of young children. That is how I approach the bill. I believe it is a useful tool for dealing with a very serious and growing problem among us.

I was reading through some of the clippings on this whole issue and I was reminded of the work David Matas has been doing on this matter in Winnipeg. Following the Peter Whitmore saga, he wrote an article in the Winnipeg Free Press on August 9 stating:

Canada is not doing enough to protect children from sexual abuse.

There are at least four ways protection could be improved. One is raising the age of consent for sex with adults. Right now it is 14. It is chilling to realize, but Whitmore cannot be convicted with sexual abuse of the 14-year-old from Winnipeg unless it can be established either that Whitmore sexually exploited the child or that the child did not consent to sex.

David Matas has helped us put this issue in perspective, at least for me, and I see some validity in this legislation from that perspective. We have had numerous briefs and reports on this issue over the years and the wisdom from some of those studies has to be considered.

I also want to refer to another Winnipeg writer by the name of Penni Mitchell. This goes back to five years ago when we were grappling with the issue of pornography and the fact that those being depicted in pornography are more and more likely to be very young children, and that we needed to find ways to curb this exploitation of our children and young people. Penni Mitchell, in the Winnipeg Free Press in 2001, said:

Changing the age of consent may, however, address the concerns of those who want to stop predators from luring young teens through on-line chat rooms. The fact that the issue was mentioned in the throne speech is a positive sign.

It is too bad we are still debating the issue today.

She goes on to say:

The fact that the Supreme Court has shone some light on our outdated consent laws may not be such a bad thing either. Under the Criminal Code, 12- and 13-year-olds can consent to lawful sexual activity as long as their boyfriend or girlfriend is not more than two years older than they are. At 14, they can engage in lawful sexual activity with an adult as long as the 14-year-old consents and the adult is not in a position of trust or authority, or someone with whom the youth is in a position of dependency. At the other extreme, Section 159 holds that anal sex is illegal unless the parties are a) husband and wife, or b) consenting adults, 18 or over. An Ontario court ruling has cast doubts on the validity of that section.

She concludes by saying:

A reasonable move to increase prosecutions of Internet predators and address some potential abuses in the personal recording exemption granted by the Supreme Court may be to follow Britain's lead and make the age of sexual consent 16 for all teenagers. Britain is also on the leading edge of prosecuting pedophiles involved at an international level, an area where Canadian law is weak.

I read this because this is from an active feminist in Winnipeg who is a long time editor of the magazine entitled Horizons. She has put on record a position that is, in my view, one that ought to give us some confidence in supporting Bill C-22 as long as the commitment to keeping a close in age exemption is part of the legislation.

Having consulted with many in my constituency in Winnipeg, especially those groups that deal with young prostitutes, exploited youth and women who are treated as nothing more than sexual objects, the belief is that this bill will make a difference.

We also know about a recent street program in Regina that is offering some help. The folks running that program and the safety services have concluded that an increase in the age of consent for sexual activity would make sense. They go on to say:

...a bigger safe house for sexually exploited kids, stronger legislation against johns and a way to help 16- and 17- year-olds who are too young for some programs and too old for others.

We are talking about one measure but it must be part of a bigger package. We do not want this dealt with in isolation. We see the importance of recognizing the need for supports and for education, as well as for this change to the Criminal Code.

Finally, let me put on the record that it is probably fair to say that a good number of young people have thought about this question and have come to the conclusion that it would make sense to increase the age of consent. I am referring to the democracy project that was published by the Dominion Institute where it said that a majority of young Canadian adults wanted the legal age of consent for sex to be raised. In fact, 54% of Canadian young adults and students aged 18 to 24 support raising the age of consent.

Therefore, we are not in danger of ignoring the concerns of young people. We are certainly not in danger of avoiding a very important social issue and with this bill we can go forward with a constructive solution that will help protect our young people from sexual predators and help ensure that young girls, teenagers and women are not treated as sexual objects and therefore condemned to a life of victimization.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I share many of the concerns and comments that my hon. colleague raised. The issue of how we ensure the protection of our children from a variety of people does need to be dealt with far more harshly as the courts proceed.

This bill will go to committee where there will be lots of opportunity for fuller debate and discussion on other ways that we can strengthen the legislation but would the hon. member have some comments as to the increased concern and preoccupation that we all have with the Internet and its access to so many of our young people?

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I believe the legislation would actually help us deal with the growing problem of sexual exploitation over the Internet. One of the most compelling reasons for moving on this legislation is that it would give us greater avenues to protect very young children and youth from being lured over the Internet into either a sexual relationship with an older person or as an object for exploitation in productions of pornography. It is a useful component.

I know we will hear from many witnesses during committee but I would add that a number of women's organizations have taken a strong position in support of this bill. One of them is the Provincial Council of Women of Manitoba which passed a resolution that called upon the government to amend the Criminal Code of Canada to reflect the age of 16 as the age of consent. It referenced that the central issue was the restriction of the privileges of adults with respect to young people. Whether that would be in terms of the direct luring of kids off the streets or whether it is over the Internet, it is an important issue that needs to be dealt with.

The council also referenced the Badgeley report of 1986, which you will remember, Mr. Speaker, since I think it was just the other day that you celebrated the 26th anniversary of your maiden speech in the House of Commons. In 1986 the Badgeley report stated:

Society has a vital interest in ensuring that its naturally weaker members are protected by legal safeguards against the naturally stronger, and particularly, that the welfare of its children and youths will be protected and fostered.

We all need to be vigilant about moving forward in this area and ensuring that a thorough vetting does take place at committee.

[Christian Paradis, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Natural Resources]

Mr. Speaker, I am very happy to rise today to take part in the debate on second reading of Bill C-22, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (age of protection) and to make consequential amendments to the Criminal Records Act.

Essentially, Bill C-22 proposes changes to the Criminal Code to better protect young people, age 14 and 15, against any form of sexual exploitation by adult predators. That is a rather clear and simple objective that the members of this House should understand and support.

It is also an important element of our government’s commitment to tackle crime. We recognize that families should be able to raise their children without fear of sexual predators. In that regard, Bill C-22 enables us to take a very big step toward the achievement of that commitment and, I would even go so far as to add, to satisfy the expectations of Canadians.

The age of consent, or the age of protection, is the age at which the Criminal Code recognizes the capacity of a young person to consent to sexual activity. In other words, it is the age below which any sexual activity with a child or young person is prohibited.

At present, the Criminal Code prohibits all sexual activity with a child under two categories of offences: general offences of sexual assault of a child or an adult, and specific offences that apply only to children. Those prohibitions deal with any form of sexual activity, whether it consists of sexual touching or sexual relations.

The criteria under which an assault is “sexual” was established almost 20 years ago by the Supreme Court of Canada in the case of R. v. Chase, a 1987 case in which the court concluded that sexual assault is an assault which is committed in circumstances of a sexual nature, such that the sexual integrity of the victim is violated. This criterion requires any court to consider all the circumstances, such as the part of the body touched, the nature of the contact, the situation in which it occurred, and the intentions of the accused.

Bill C-22 does not seek to amend the already well established legal status on this question. In fact, it proposes rather to build on the approach adopted by the Criminal Code concerning the prohibition of sexual activity with those who have not reached the age of consent

Currently, the minimum age of consent to sexual activity that is in any way exploitative is 18 years. This applies to prostitution, pornography and sexual activity involving a relationship of authority, trust or dependence or situations in which a young person is exploited in some other way.

The bill does not change the existing age of protection for these purposes.

For other kinds of sexual activity, however, the current age of consent is 14. There is only one exception to this rule: 12- and 13-year-old youths can consent to sexual activity on condition that their partner is less than two years older than they are, although this partner may not be 16, and the relationship is not one of trust, authority or dependence or a relationship in which the youth is exploited in some other way.

Bill C-22 does not change this two-year age proximity exception, although it does advance the age of consent from 14 to 16 years. It also creates a new age proximity exception for 14- and 15-year old youths.

More specifically and as is currently the case with the age proximity exception for 12- and 13-year old youths, Bill C-22 would create a new age proximity exception that would allow 14- and 15-year-old youths to consent to sexual activity with a person who is less than five years older on condition that this relationship does not involve a position of authority, trust or dependence and is not exploitative in any way.

The bill contains a broader age exception for 14- and 15-year-old youths in recognition of the fact that they are more likely to engage in sexual activities than 12- or 13-year-olds and the peer group of secondary school students is generally larger than that of children in intermediate school. This measure also reflects the general purpose of Bill C-22, which is to better protect 14- and 15-year old youths against adult predators while avoiding the criminalization of consensual sexual activity among adolescents.

This is not the first time that we have studied a proposal to extend the age of protection from 14 to 16 years of age. This issue has actually been raised, studied and debated on numerous occasions over the last 20 years.

Allow me to mention some of the landmark reports on the subject.

First, in 1981, the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, together with the Minister of Health and Welfare, struck the Committee on Sexual Offences against Children and Youth. The committee was given a very broad mandate to examine the incidence of sexual offences against children and adolescents in Canada and to recommend improvements to laws protecting adolescents against sexual abuse and exploitation.

The committee, often referred to as the Badgely committee after its chair, Robin Badgely, submitted its report in 1984. This was the first comprehensive interdisciplinary report to provide a national overview of the sexual abuse and exploitation of children in Canada. The committee made 52 recommendations that addressed the need to reform criminal and evidentiary law, as well as social services and programs to better protect children from sexual abuse and exploitation.

The committee studied existing Criminal Code prohibitions concerning sexual activity with children. For example, at the time, the only thing a man was absolutely prohibited from doing was having sexual relations with a female who was not his spouse and who was under 14 years of age. Sexual relationships with 14 or 15 year old girls were prohibited only if the girl in question was “of previously chaste character” or if the accused was more to blame than the girl for the behaviour.

It is easy to see why the committee recommended modernizing these prohibitions to protect both boys and girls, not only from sexual relationships, but also from all forms of sexual activity, regardless of whether they were “of previously chaste character”.

It is interesting to note that the committee also recommended that the age of protection be raised from 14 to 16 years. However, even though several of the committee's other recommendations were followed in what was then Bill C-15, an act to amend the Criminal Code and the Canada Evidence Act, which came into force on January 1, 1988, the age of protection was not raised.

Former Bill C-15 required that Parliament review the implementation and the effectiveness of these reforms four years after they came into force. In June 1993, the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs, chaired by Bob Horner, tabled its report on the four-year review of the child sexual abuse provisions of the Criminal Code and the Canada Evidence Act (formerly Bill C-15).

Once again, the issue of age of consent was examined. Some of the submissions the committee received recommended raising the age of consent from 14 to 16 and including a close in age exception of three years. However, the committee concluded that the testimony received did not warrant raising the age of consent.

So it is that Bill C-22 is before us today. The issue is still there; it has not gone away. But do we have more evidence today than in 1993 to justify raising the age of consent? I think so, and I believe that the people of Canada think so as well.

First, children and adolescents continue to be greatly exposed to the risks of sexual assault and exploitation.

In 2005, Statistics Canada said that children and adolescents accounted for 61% of all victims of sexual assault reported to police. According to its report, and I quote, “Sexual assaults are largely crimes committed against children and young people.” [Juristat: Children and youth as victims of violent crime, April 2005].

As well, the adolescents that Bill C-22 is seeking to protect better are among those at highest risk of being victims of sexual assault. Again according to Statistics Canada's 2005 Juristat, girls aged 11 to 17 account for a high proportion of victims of all types of sexual assaults committed against children and adolescents: 31% or nearly a third of victims were adolescent girls between 14 and 17, and nearly 23% of victims were adolescent girls between 11 and 13.

These same adolescent girls are also more likely to be lured over the Internet. Luring over the Internet has been an offence under the Criminal Code since 2002. The Criminal Code prohibits the use of the Internet to communicate with a child or an adolescent for the purpose of committing a sexual offence or an abduction.

In 2005, Cybertip.ca, a national tipline for reporting the online exploitation of children, reported that during its pilot phase from September 2002 to September 2004, 10% of the tips it received were about online luring.

In 93% of cases, the victims were young girls, most of them—about 73%—between the ages of 12 and 15. Given the popularity of the Internet among teens, we have every reason to believe that this trend will continue.

For example, three years ago, Statistics Canada reported that 71%—nearly three quarters—of 15 year olds used the Internet at least a few times a week; 60% said they used it primarily for email and chatting. My source is a document entitled Canadian Social Trends published in the summer of 2003 by Statistics Canada.

The 2004 report of the Canadian branch of the World Internet Project, which was released in October 2005, included a survey of Canadian Internet users and non-users. In the survey, parents estimated that their children spent an average of 8.9 hours a week on the Internet.

Third, young Canadians engage in sexual activity relatively early. Let us look at some of Statistics Canada's data about sexual activity among youth.

In May 2005, Statistics Canada reported that the percentage of teens who said they had sex for the first time before turning 15 has been increasing since the 1980s. As reported in The Daily on May 3, 2005, it is estimated that 12% of boys and 14% of girls have had a sexual relationship before turning 14 or 15. In 2003, an estimated 28% of 15 to 17 year olds reported having had at least one sexual relationship.

Fourth, many other countries already recognize that 14 and 15 year olds are at risk of sexual exploitation. Their age of protection is higher than Canada's 14.

Take the Commonwealth countries, for example, where the criminal law derives from the same sources as Canada’s. We find that the age of protection is 16 in England, and 16 at the federal level and 16 or 17 at the state level in Australia. In New Zealand, the age of consent is 16. If we look south of the border, we find that the age of consent is 16 at the federal level in the United States, and that it varies essentially from 16 to 18 at the state level.

It is particularly worth noting how Hawaii recently dealt with this question. In that state, the age of consent was set at 14 until 2001, when it was temporarily raised to 16 so that additional analyses and studies could be done. In 2003 it was permanently raised to 16, and an exception for age differences within five years was adopted for all sexual activity with a young person 14 or 15 years of age.

Today we know much more about the risk of 14 and 15 year-olds being sexually exploited than we did 20 years ago. It is now time to act on what we know.

I am aware that some people have decided that Bill C-22 serves no purpose, arguing that former Bill C-2, which dealt with the protection of children and other vulnerable persons, extended the existing prohibition on sexual application to cover young people aged 14 to 18. That amendment imposed a duty on the courts to consider all of the circumstances of a sexual relationship with a young person, such as the age of the young person, any age difference between the two partners, the evolution of the relationship and the degree of control or influence by the older partner over the young person, in determining whether the situation was a case of sexual exploitation.

That amendment was simply not sufficient. It did not adequately clarify things and it did not protect young people aged 14 and 15. However, that is what Bill C-22 does. Bill C-22 eliminates all conjecture and draws a very clear dividing line: if you are more than five years older than a young person who is 14 or 15 years old, you are prohibited from engaging in any sexual activity with that young person. This rule will provide protection for all young people 14 and 15 years of age against anyone who is more than five years older than them.

It is not the aim of Bill C-22 to criminalize all sexual activity on the part of young people. In fact, this bill provides for very clear and very reasonable exceptions, to ensure that sexual activity between young people to which they have freely consented is not criminalized. Bill C-22 will not operate to criminalize marriages or common-law relationships involving a partner who is 14 or 15 years of age and a partner more than five years older than that person that exist when it comes into force. There will be an exception for those cases.

However, there should be no doubt regarding who will be held criminally liable under Bill C-22: any adult who is five or more years older than a young person with whom he or she engages in sexual activity. This is not just something that must be done to protect young people against sexual predators, it is also the only fair thing to do.

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Bloc Québécois could of course support Bill C-22 in principle.

However, I would like to ask the hon. member the following question. Once this bill is enacted, what can be done the fact that a low of disclosure and reporting by rate victims of sexual assault is often a major obstacle in the fight against sex crimes?

I would like the member to tell the House what the Conservative Party intends to do about this. Indeed, even with the legislation, we are often unaware of sex crimes if we do not know about situations or activities, or apply certain measures to prevent sexual activity among young people, and especially exploitation of young people.

[Christian Paradis, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for his excellent question.

Indeed, the low disclosure rate is a major problem in cases of sex crimes committed against adolescents. We must attack this scourge. I humbly believe that Bill C-22 will remedy this to a great extent.

In fact, based on what was previously proposed, that is, the previous bill that I cited earlier, the burden of proof was extremely high for the victim. It entailed a lengthy legal process and young people were often discouraged. We are now proposing a bill that is clear and has a limit. Thus, there is no burden of proof. No one can begin to say that a given person thought this or that, what the degree of intention was, and so on. Now, the age difference is clearly defined for the range, set at age 14 and 15. The limit is now clear and will—I hope and I am sure—encourage young victims to exercise their right to recourse and denounce adult sexual predators.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I trust that the hon. Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice will listen to me for the 20 minutes at my disposal. With regard to the last question from my hon. colleague from the Sherbrooke area, I an not sure that the answer given by the parliamentary secretary will be found in Bill C-22.

We must acknowledge that Bill C-22 is an important piece of legislation. I would like to quote the law clerks who analysed it. We know how it works in this House. When the government tables a bill, it is analysed by law clerks who make recommendations and explain the substance of the legislation. Thus, permit me to quote the law clerks who stated:

The text amends the Criminal Code to raise the age of consent, from fourteen to sixteen, for a non-exploitative sexual activity.

The wording is very important

It creates an exception in respect of any person who engages in sexual activity with a 14- or 15-year-old youth and who is less than five years older than the youth.

After practising criminal law for 25 years I can tell you that I am not certain that Bill C-22, in its present form, will lead to more charges from youth who are victims of illicit sexual acts. However, and this is where the bill becomes very interesting, or at least interesting, it does seek to better protect older youth from becoming victims of sexual exploitation.

The important aspect of Bill C-22 is that it also seeks to send a message to sexual predators that Canada will not tolerate the abuse of adolescents. On the international scene, this bill will clarify, affirm and confirm that Canada is not a destination for sex tourism. Now it will be said, throughout the world, that no one should think of Canada as a destination for sex tourism.

Consequently, the Bloc Québécois supports the principle of Bill C-22 and thus we should vote that it be sent to committee.

Since I currently sit on the Standing Committee on Justice, this will make one more bill for us to study. In fact, this good government—as it likes to describe itself—has inundated us with so many bills that we are having a hard time distinguishing what I would describe as exclusively right-wing American-style bills from bills that actually provide protection. This bill comes under the latter category.

The government probably should have introduced this bill before the others. We have 12 bills to study, and this one will be the 13th. Unfortunately for this government, I am not sure it can withstand a potential election in the coming years, the coming year or the coming months. This bill will be considered in order of priority and will certainly not be studied in committee before next year.

However, the Bloc Québécois has always recognized the need to increase child protection, which this bill does. The Bloc has always played an active role in meeting this objective.

We support this bill in principle, because it seems to provide added protection, enabling us to fight more effectively against the exploitation of the most vulnerable members of our society: children. However—and this is the thrust of our position—the Bloc Québécois will make sure that the bill does not have any adverse effects on the health and freedom of the young people we are seeking to protect.

I almost called you “Your Lordship”, Mr. Speaker. I am so used to pleading before the court I was going to give you that honour. Your salary would have strangely increased over the next few hours because salaries are a great deal higher for judges than for those of us gathered here in this House.

Mr. Speaker, I could list all the protection measures and everything that has been done during the past few years. Whether it was the Liberals or the Conservatives—regardless of which party was in power—the Criminal Code has been amended over the years. Heaven knows I am aware of that because defence lawyers have had to live with the restrictions imposed by these amendments.

It is essential that those who are listening to us, that the public that is listening, knows and understands that the Criminal Code now offers protection to children who feel that they have been sexually exploited—and who actually have been—by sexual predators. This protection has been introduced in recent years. I could refer to many points. For example, a victim no longer is required to testify in front of the accused. The accused is protected from seeing the victim and above all the victim is protected from testifying in front of the accused. The Criminal Code was amended to provide this protection to victims. In the past few years, an effort has been made, in the Criminal Code, to provide special protection for the youngest victims. The majority of those victims are women.

I remember the early years—I would not even dare to say they were good years—when the accused person before the court often was not the person sitting at my side, but very often, the victim, who was called on to testify and whose whole life was drawn out in great detail in an attempt to have our client acquitted.

Defence lawyers realized well before the crown did that we had gone too far. Little by little the rules were revised to prevent lawyers from using the victims to win acquittal for their clients by using underhanded means to unsettle a witness to the point where she could not continue to testify. That is what we are doing now. We are adding Bill C-22 to this wall we have built to protect victims.

This bill will make it possible for victims to tell the court, freely and above all under protection, what they have suffered. That is what I wish and it is also what the Bloc Québécois wishes. Today, it is unthinkable that victims should testify in court and be so afraid of their abuser that very often, after several hours of testimony, they stop and never return. They continue to be abused.

If this bill could help prevent that, the Bloc feels that it would be a good additional stone in the wall protecting victims of sexual aggression. It would provide additional protection against sexual predators.

The bill provides, however, for some exceptions. People will have to understand this. The Bloc Québécois was originally against the bill that reduced the age of consent from 16 to 14 years. The government's position was, “that's it, period, end of discussion”. Young people can and do have sexual relations between the ages of 14 and 17 or 18. I believe that it would be closing our eyes, it would be what is called “wilful blindness” in legal jargon, to say that there are no sexual relationships and no sexual contact among 14 year olds.

It is part of the way the world is changing.

That is why the bill provides an exception for 14 and 15 year olds who engage in non-exploitative sexual activities. This is very important: we insist on the expression “non-exploitative” being in the bill.

Take the example of street gangs. I am thinking of the example of young runaways in drop-in centres. I mean young girls and boys between 13 and 15 years of age who end up, despite themselves, in street gangs and are sexually exploited and engage in prostitution when they are as young as 15 or 17 under the control of a 17 or 18 year old. It says in a “non-exploitative” way and this bill will make an exception.

It can easily happen that 14 or 15 year-olds go out—as they say in school—with 16 or 17 year olds. If these young people engage in sexual activities, it will not be possible to charge them under the Criminal Code.

The bill provides a notable exception for 14 or 15 year olds who engage in “non-exploitative” sexual activities with a partner who is less than five years older than they are. The message is clear.

It is and will be unacceptable, if this bill passes, for a 20 year old to go out with a 14 year old girl. That could not be clearer in this bill.

Bill C-22 has three exceptions: a close in age exception of five years for young people aged 14 or 15, a close in age exception of two years for young people aged 12 or 13, whereby 12 and 13 year olds could have sexual relations with 14 or 15 year olds. This can happen; it does happen. I repeat, it would be wilful blindness to say this will not happen or that this will no longer happen. It is happening today and will continue to happen tomorrow. There will also be a transitional exception whereby on the day on which this act comes into force, young people aged 14 or 15 and their partner who is over five years older can legally continue to have sexual contact only if they are married, living in common law or have a child as a result of their relationship.

This means that a young person aged 19 or 20 and his girlfriend aged 15 or 16 could continue to have sexual contact if they are common-law partners. They cannot each live with their parents. They must live together, have a child together or be married; if not, they must end their relations. This part of the bill seems difficult to enforce, but time will tell.

It has been calculated, and I hope studies will prove it in committee, that it is very rare for young people aged 15 or 16 and 20 to continue having relations and not live together. For example, a 14 or 15 year old girl living with her 17 or 19 year old boyfriend might benefit from the exception.

I admit this is quite complex and that these are important decisions, but we needed to talk about these exceptions to show that the government is not against relations between persons aged 14 and 15. The purpose of the bill is to protect children.

However, there are avenues to be explored, avenues that must be very closely examined. For example, the fact has been raised—and the question from my colleague, the member for Sherbrooke to the parliamentary secretary was part of it—that the low rate of disclosure and reporting by victims of sexual assault is a major obstacle to the fight against sexual crimes.

I do not know how this will be tackled or how the government intends to publicize this bill; but this bill will not solve all the problems.

It is impossible to take action if a young person lies or hides a relationship to protect the assailant. The public and the parents who are listening to us here in this House must understand that they have to talk to their children and tell them that with this bill they can now make a complaint if they are victims of sexual assault and that, if they do, they will receive protection.

However, numerous studies suggest that each year barely 10% of sexual assaults are reported to the police. We strongly hope that there will be an increase in such reports once the bill has become law. The sexual abuse that young boys and girls are subject to in our society must stop. We must protect our children and young people; and we in this House have a role to play. That is what this bill seeks to do.

The Bloc Québécois also believes that sex education is an essential avenue for really protecting young people from sexual exploitation. To that end, the government must translate its good intentions into the bill and its implementation. This bill necessarily implies the investment of sums of money for the sex education of young people everywhere in our society.

Education must not only enable young people to understand their responsibilities in terms of sexuality, whether one thinks of STDs, unwanted pregnancies, or other issues; but it must also give young people the tools to protect themselves against unwanted sexual relations or in a situation of exploitation. Improved methods of sex education could enable children and young people to avoid certain difficult and challenging situations.

Sex education informs, stimulates thought and facilitates informed decision making. Parents, schools and social services must stop tossing the ball back and forth because all of them share the important responsibility of providing for the sex education of children. Effective sex education presumes that adults give messages that have a clear and unambiguous meaning, and that they take into account the age of the child or young person.

We will absolutely have to invest the necessary and appropriate funds in genuine sex education. We hope that when Bill C-22 becomes law we will be able to ensure that young people not only are protected, but also receive appropriate sex education.

Before the bill we are considering is passed, the Bloc Québécois will need assurances that raising the age of consent will not have adverse effects on the very young people we are trying to protect. The Bloc Québécois is concerned about the possibility that relationships between young people that are entirely healthy and legitimate will be criminalized. We are also afraid that the bill will have unforeseen side effects on the physical and mental health of the young people we want to protect.

We will support this bill in principle solely for the purpose of providing better protection for children from sexual predators, and not for the purpose of stigmatizing young people engaged in consensual sexual relationships.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I listened with interest to my colleague's speech and want to ask him one question.

Over the years there has been a great demand for this kind of legislation from people and groups who work in areas such as protecting children, preventing childhood exploitation, ensuring victims' rights are protected, and preventing the victimization of children.

I heard two messages from my colleague. On the one hand, I appreciate the acknowledgement that this bill does not seek to criminalize relationships between young children. When this issue has been raised in the past, we have heard specifically from the Liberals, time and again, that we were trying to criminalize sexual relationships between children or young people. That is not what this bill is about.

I would like the member to comment on cases in which individuals come here from some U.S. states or some other country where the age of consent is 16 because they know we have a low age of consent in Canada. I am not talking about teenagers here. I am talking about men in their thirties and forties who come to Canada because our age of consent is 14 years of age. That is what this bill targets. I would ask the member to comment on that.

Also, I would ask him to comment a bit on the importance of what is included in the government bill. I would ask him to comment on the fact that there is a close in age exemption included, one that has existed for individuals under 14 years of age for some time now, and there will continue to be a close in age exemption into the future.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I understand the parliamentary secretary’s comments and I am somewhat in agreement with him.

In answer to his first comment, I will tell him that the Bloc Québécois agrees with increasing protection for children if we have to raise the age of consent for sexual relationships to do that. We agree, but this must not be the only thing we do. There are other things that have to be done, guidance that must be provided that will ensure that we are not merely going to criminalize sexual relationships or activity between young people.

That is not the only objective. The objective of the bill is to provide additional protection so that we can combat the exploitation of vulnerable individuals in our society. That is the reason why we support the bill in principle, but more than just this will have to be done. More than fine words, and more than a law, is going to be needed. We need a law that will let the whole world know that Canada will not tolerate sexual tourism here. However, we will also have to take it a step farther and work on education.

My final comments are to reiterate to the parliamentary secretary that it is not enough for the Minister of Justice to draft a bill and table it and have an amendment made; his colleagues—the Minister of Healthand others—who are concerned about sexual relationships or sexual activity on the part of young people will have to put some money into it, to ensure we are all able to protect young people from unwanted sexual relationships.

There will have to be considerable education done, because it is fine to protect young people, but they need to be told that they have this protection. I am thinking, for example, of sexual coercion practised by 17- and 18-year-olds against 14-, 15- or 16-year-old runaways. This will absolutely have to be fleshed out over the next few months. We are going to try to do this, and we will be able do it, at the Standing Committee on Justice, by listening to the people who appear before us. They will be asked to answer our questions, and to provide their guidance and expertise to assist in putting this law in place.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I listened very carefully to the member's comments and concerns and have a specific question for the member. I raised it earlier in the day.

In Saskatchewan a few years ago, three young individuals in their twenties picked up a 12 year old girl and gave her some beer and so on. The evidence showed that some pretty serious sexual exploitation took place in respect to the 12 year old girl. Two of the accused had a trial before a jury. They had a very good defence lawyer. The defence lawyer's main argument was that the relationship was consensual. Second, the lawyer argued that the girl looked like she could be 14 or even older.

Let us guess what happened when the jury came in after hearing that pitch. Reasonable doubt is all we have to raise if we are defending an accused person. The jury acquitted those two individuals of the charge. It was a horrendous, scary situation.

My point here is that if we cannot find any reason to support the bill, that particular situation shows the need for this sort of legislation. That 12 year old girl should have had the protection of the law on her side. She should have had the protection of every single member of Parliament in the House of Commons on her side, to make sure that our laws are there to protect the victim, not to give loopholes to defence lawyers and allow adults to prey on and exploit our young people.

Fortunately, the Court of Appeal in Saskatchewan reversed that decision, which was very commendable, but I find it very upsetting that at a trial before a jury, because of the way we have framed our laws, we leave people like this girl open to a lack of protection such that it is open season on young people for adults who want to prey on them.

Could the member please express his comments about the need to make sure that our laws are strong and can protect a 12 year old girl from a gang of youths in their twenties seriously exploiting and abusing her? Could he comment on the fact that we have a really strong need to move in that area?

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as a criminal law attorney who has appeared before the courts on many occasions, my first reaction is to be pleased to hear my hon. colleague say at the end of his speech that the Court of Appeal reversed the decision.

Under the Criminal Code, if a person has sexual relations with a victim less than 14 years old, ignorance of age is not a defence. That does not matter. There are already sections in the Criminal Code that are very clear on this, and the bill will not change anything in this respect.

I have appeared often enough to be able to say that claiming before the court that the victim consented to the relations is no defence. When a person is 20 years old and the victim 12, it is no defence. She must be 14 years of age or more, or else it is all over. I do not even understand, by the way, why there was a trial, but that is another story.

In answer to my hon. colleague’s question, this bill will explain and clarify things. There is the close in age exception of five years. A 20 year old youth and a 15 year old girl can continue having sexual relations. What the government wants to do through this bill—and what the Bloc supports—is prevent sexual predators and sexual exploiters from achieving their ends. In the hon. member’s example, it is evident that if young, 20 year old men induce a 14 year old girl to have sexual relations with them, they will be cooked under this new bill.

If the bill comes into force, they will not be able to rely on this defence. Nowadays, it is five years. I encourage my hon. colleague to make his remarks because if this bill is agreed to by the House, we will be able to study it thoroughly in committee.

In conclusion, I would say that the Criminal Code is not there to sentence the crime; it is there to sentence the individual who committed the crime. There is quite a difference here that our friends across the aisle—the current government—have not fully grasped.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have this opportunity to speak in the debate on Bill C-22, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (age of protection) and to make consequential amendments to the Criminal Records Act.

This is an important debate that we are having today. It is an important debate that we need to continue to have around this particular piece of legislation. Here in this corner of the House in the NDP caucus we have different points of view on this matter. We have already seen that this afternoon in the debate. A number of NDP members have taken differing positions on this piece of legislation. I think that debate has been healthy in our caucus, where we have explored the issues relating to the age of consent for sexual activity and to people's concerns around the sexual activity of young people in Canada.

I do not think the NDP has come to a common position on this legislation. I would be surprised if we did. I think members will see that NDP members take different points of view on it, but it is important that we air those different points of view and have them taken into consideration as part of the debate on this legislation.

It is particularly important in light of the proposal that was made late last week by the Liberal House leader that six crime bills go directly to the Senate from this place. One bill that was suggested to go directly to the Senate was Bill C-22. At the time the suggestion was made, there had not been any debate in the House on this bill. That debate began today. At the time the suggestion was made there had been no debate whatsoever here in the House of Commons on Bill C-22. It would have been very irresponsible to send Bill C-22 directly to the Senate without having given it any debate or consideration, even if there were complete unanimity in this place on this legislation, which there is not.

It is very important that Bill C-22 go to committee and that there be a thorough discussion, that witnesses be called and that people be given an opportunity to discuss their point of view and their concerns about this legislation. People should be able to say why they support the bill or why they oppose it.

It is particularly important that we hear the voices of young people on this issue. There is no one in the age ranges that are contemplated in this bill represented in the House. There is no one who sits in this place that is within the age range that we are contemplating in this legislation. It is very important that we take some pains to try and hear some of those voices as part of this discussion. I think young people do have a particular perspective on both sides of the issue. It would be very important to hear from both sides, but especially to hear from young people.

I am concerned that when we make these kinds of decisions we can too easily be seen as paternalistic. As older people we may have a particular perspective and concerns that are not shared by those who are directly affected by this legislation. It would be a very important step for the committee that will be looking at the bill, whether that be the justice committee or a special legislative committee, that it actually take the time to seek out and hear from young people.

Within the New Democratic Party we have had a vigorous debate on Bill C-22. Young people who are active in our party have taken a very strong position in opposition to raising the age of consent. In fact, they sent a number of resolutions to our recent federal convention that addressed that very issue. I want to read one intervention from the NDP youth of Canada which said:

WHEREAS the Conservative government has indicated that it plans to increase the age of consent for sexual activity, excluding anal intercourse, from 14 to 16 years of age;

WHEREAS the laws governing sexual consent currently protect minors from sexual abuse and exploitation;

WHEREAS increasing the age of consent will not remove the causes of sexual exploitation of minors; and

WHEREAS increasing the age of consent will effectively criminalize sexual activity amongst young people insofar as it may lead to a restriction in access to safer sex information and resources;

BE IT THEREFORE RESOLVED that Federal Council direct Caucus to oppose any legislation that would increase the age of sexual consent, or that would further criminalize sexual activity between minors.

That is a very serious statement of their concern. Any time a group within any of our political parties seeks to direct a caucus to take a particular position on an issue I think expresses their very strongly held position on that legislation.

I think those folks deserve a hearing. Those young people who have concerns about the legislation deserve a hearing. That is why I am glad we are having this debate. I hope there will be no attempt to short-circuit a full and free discussion of this legislation before a House of Commons committee. We need to hear those witnesses. We need to have that full discussion. We need to have the bill back in the House, whether it is amended or not, to have further discussion on it. I personally would feel very strongly that any attempt to short-circuit that process with regard to this piece of legislation would be absolutely the wrong thing to do.

At the same time I do recognize that there are strongly held positions in my own community on this issue. I have heard from many people in my community on this issue, many people who support raising the age of consent from 14 to 16 years of age. Just last week I presented petitions in the House from about 80 people from the Lower Mainland of British Columbia, including quite a few from my own constituency, who asked that Parliament take that remedy, that it increase the age of consent from 14 to 16 years of age. I know that is a very strongly held position in my constituency.

I also know that the City of Burnaby has taken a very strong position through its task force on the sexual exploitation of youth which rose out of concerns in south Burnaby for street prostitution and the fact that there were young people involved in street prostitution in south Burnaby. One of the recommendations made by the task force that looked into it was to increase the age of consent from 14 to 16 years of age. Burnaby Mayor Derek Corrigan is a very strong and passionate supporter of that particular initiative.

There are people in my community who are very concerned about the age of consent and seek a remedy. At the same time I want to make sure that the remedy we propose will actually address the concerns that people have about the exploitation of young people. I am yet to be convinced that the law we currently have on the books does not take the right measures to do that.

Right now it is illegal to be involved in an exploitive relationship with a young person in Canada under the age of 18 years, a person between the ages of 14 and 16 years of age, and this law does not change that. In fact, what the law does is it only criminalizes non-exploitive sexual activity for young people in the age group 14 to 16 years. Right now exploitive sexual activity is clearly prohibited in the Criminal Code of Canada. This bill, in changing the age of consent, really will only criminalize non-exploitive sexual activity in that age group.

That is something we need to consider very carefully. I do not believe that criminalizing sexual activity is the best way to deal with any of the concerns that we might have about young people engaging in sexual activity. I do not think a criminal sanction is the way to go. I do not think that ultimately solves the problem. If anything, I think a criminal sanction only drives the activity underground where we do not have the ability to discuss it, to address it and to deal with the real issues about why that hurts young people and why that relationship may be one that we would have concerns about.

I grew up at a time when sexuality was largely criminalized, when my sexuality as a gay man was largely criminalized in Canada. I do not think that prohibited people from engaging in gay and lesbian relationships, even though it was against the law in Canada, but it certainly did drive it underground. It certainly did drive the solution of problems around relationships, around sexually transmitted diseases and around other issues underground at the time. I think that we recognized back in the late 1960s in Canada that it was not a helpful circumstance and we removed that prohibition from the Criminal Code.

The same effects are possible with this kind of legislation. I do not want to make it more difficult than it already is for young people who, say, contract a sexually transmitted disease, from getting assistance with that health issue. If they know that the relationship they have been in is one prohibited by law, then I think there will be a real reticence on their part to seek the kind of treatment they need in that circumstance. That is a serious concern about this legislation in the way that it currently stands.

That concern has been raised by a number of organizations. The Canadian AIDS Society board of directors adopted a statement on the age of consent back in July. One of the things that the society said was:

The Canadian AIDS Society is concerned that increasing the age of consent could result in young people being more secretive about their sexual practices and not seeking out the information they need. This will place youth at an increased risk of contracting HIV and other sexually transmitted infections.

We already know that young people in that age group are among the group that is most affected by sexually transmitted diseases and HIV-AIDS. We want to make sure that we do not put any barrier to improving the circumstances where they get the information, where they get the treatment, where they know about the appropriate ways of preventing these diseases and this virus.

When an organization like the Canadian AIDS Society raises a concern of this magnitude about this legislation, I want to share that concern. The society also said that it believes that Bill C-2 which was passed in the last Parliament created some new protections for young people. I want to read the section where the society addressed that issue:

Passed by Parliament in July 2005, Bill C-2 created new protections for youth under 18 years of age against exploitative sexual activity. Bill C-2 takes into account the nature and circumstance of the relationship, including the age of the young person, the difference in age between the youth and the other person, how the relationship evolved, and the degree of control or influence exercised over a youth under 18.

Bill C-2 in the last Parliament actually further defined the issues around exploitive sexual activity, around what it meant to be in a position of power or authority in a relationship. We need to see what the effect of those changes are, if they went some way to actually improving the circumstance of relationships where there was exploitation.

It is clear that the legislation that is in place in the Criminal Code already protects people under the age of 18 from sexual relationships that happen in circumstances of exploitation, in circumstances related to the production of pornography, in circumstances related to prostitution, or in circumstances where there is a relationship of trust, authority or dependency. The legislation is very clear.

Over the years when I worked as a constituency assistant I would often have conversations with people on the phone who were concerned about the age of consent. Often they did not understand that those provisions were in the current legislation, that the legislation was very clear about what it meant to be in a relationship of trust, authority or dependency, what it meant for there to be an exploitive relationship.

I actually believe that the current legislation provides a good opportunity, should anyone choose to take it, for discussion with young people about the nature of a relationship and what are important criteria to see in relationships. I really do not see the problems with this legislation. I think it has gone some way; I think the revision in the last Parliament also goes some way to improving that circumstance.

The Canadian AIDS Society has made some important points. It also says that we should be focusing on promoting “consistent comprehensive AIDS-HIV and sexual health education across Canada”, that that is the side of the equation on which we need to be putting our efforts. Sometimes a Criminal Code amendment may seem like an easy and popular step when the preventive kinds of measures that the society is talking about through education are the ones that will actually address the problems that do crop up.

Educating young people to make better choices in their relationships is the way that we need to go. Anything we can do as members of Parliament to increase the ability of young people to have access to important information about relationships and about sexual relationships is the way to go. I would certainly support anyone who was increasing the availability of that information and the ease of access to that kind of information for young people across Canada.

The Canadian Federation for Sexual Health, which I believe is the umbrella organization for planned parenthood organizations across Canada, has also made a position statement on the age of consent. I want to quote from its statement as well:

The Canadian Federation for Sexual Health does not support raising the age of consent to sexual activity from 14 years to 16 years, as there is no evidence that this increased restriction on individual rights will increase protection of youth from sexual exploitation or provide any other benefit sufficient to justify the intrusion into personal privacy and consensual activity. Rather, the prospect of legal sanction and third party disclosure could seriously discourage youth from accessing preventive and therapeutic health services and other forms of information and assistance.

Again, it has raised the whole question of the access to health care, health services and information and assistance for young people who contract a sexually transmitted disease, and that is a very important consideration. It is flawed legislation without other provisions in it.

It also goes on to say that the Canadian Federation for Sexual Health believes that at any age, consent should be informed. It further believes that the best way to protect and support young people is to ensure that they have access to accurate, comprehensive, timely and non-judgmental sexual health education and services that inform them about their rights and options and the risks and benefits of engaging in sexual activity. Again, we are back to that need for information and education for young people rather than a criminal sanction against sexual activity, and that is very crucial.

The legislation also does not address the question of a uniform age of consent. Since I believe 1987, we have had calls for this in Parliament when an all party committee, in its “Equality For All” report, called for a uniform age of consent. We still have on the books a differential in the way anal intercourse is treated. We know this has been thrown out of the courts, but an amendment should have been in the legislation. If the legislation really sought to deal with issues around the age of consent, it would have included and amendment, making it a uniform age of consent for all sexual practices. I am very disappointed this not there.

For me, if there is any reason for this legislation not be approved, it is because this amendment is not in it. We cannot leave that law on the books. It would be inappropriate to prosecute people for engaging in sexual activity and it would be inappropriate to prosecute young people for engaging in that, no matter what we think of the sexual practice. This criminal sanction is wrong and the amendment should have been included in the legislation. If this goes to committee, I hope it is one thing members of the committee will seriously consider.

Another amendment required in the legislation is one which would allow for conversations about sexually transmitted diseases. When a young person discloses this and disclosed a relationship with an older person, it would be considered a privileged conversation, which would not have to be reported. If the legislation goes forward, as a minimum, it has to include that kind of protection. Otherwise, in this circumstance I do not think young people will make this disclosure. They will not seek the kind of assistance they need when they have a medical issue and when they are involved in a relationship outside of the parameters of this law. That is an absolutely crucial addition to the legislation before it is a viable.

We cannot do anything that makes it more difficult for young people to get the assistance, to seek the treatment and to get the information they need around sexual issues. That is a very important piece of any legislation dealing with the age of consent for sexual activity.

I am also concerned there is still a real bias in our society against young people taking any initiative to discuss issues of sexual activity and relationships. An example of that is the current controversy whipped up by some folks on the religious right about a publication from St. Stephen's Community House in Toronto called The Little Black Book for Girlz: A Book on Healthy Sexuality, which is a book of sexual relationship information produced by young women in that community. It is part of the collection of the Library of Parliament now and I have had a look at it. There is some very important information in it, presented in a way that is accessible to young women in our society.

I want to commend both the community centre and the team of young women for their efforts in putting that resource together. It is exactly the kind of resource to which young people should have access. It presents the information they need in a very helpful way.

With that commendation on the work in this general area, I cannot support the legislation in principle at this stage. I need to know that it has a full and free discussion in this place, that it goes to committee, that witnesses and particularly young people are heard on the issue of this age of consent legislation and that their perspective is taken into account. I believe there are some important places in this legislation that need to be amended before I could give approval in principle to it, and that is around the uniform age of consent and privileged sexual health conversations with young people.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I share the member's opinion on the whole issue. I think as parliamentarians we are all concerned about preventing the exploitation of children. The basic thing we should be doing is looking at how we can enhance the bill, at whether the bill enhances it enough or whether we need to be given more opportunity at committee to discuss the bill.

Does the member agree that more education needs to be done, not just due to concerns about putting more people in jail as a result of this additional legislation, because the idea is to protect our children, but to ensure everybody in our country is well educated to the fact that we take the exploitation of our children very seriously and that we will aggressively pursue anyone attempting to do it? Does he not agree that it would make good sense to put some effort into educating individuals who have the intention of being sexual predators or exploiting our children?

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, there is absolutely no excuse for exploiting a young person for a sexual purpose and we have legislation that makes that absolutely clear.

Before the law was amended in the last Parliament by the previous government, which the member was a part of, it was strong legislation. It was first introduced by the Progressive Conservative government when former Governor General Ramon Hnatyshyn was the minister of justice. When he was minister of justice he was responsible for introducing the basic law on the age of consent that we have now.

I remember being an assistant to an MP at the time and being part of the committee discussion. I listened to the debate in committee and I do not believe many, if any, organizations or individuals who appeared as witnesses opposed the legislation that established the basic age of consent law where a person in a position of trust or authority was prohibited from having a relationship with a person in the age group of 14 to 18.

That was good legislation and it was made stronger in the last Parliament by Bill C-2, which further delineated areas of exploitation and made it very clear what the problems of exploitation were. It was very explicit. It included prostitution and the production of pornography.

If people took the time to look at that law, they would see that it is an excellent educational tool around understanding what was good and what was bad about relationships. No matter what kind of relationship or what age a person was, it contained guidance about the qualities that go into a good relationship, that raise the issues of exploitation and the power dynamics that happen within a sexual relationship. There is good material there and I wish we would use it more often.

I am concerned when organizations, like the Canadian AIDS Society, Planned Parenthood and the Canadian Federation for Sexual Health, which are among the most pre-eminent sexual educators in Canada, raise concerns about this legislation. They are saying that it may drive young people's sexual activity underground and put them out of range of discussions about appropriate expressions of sexuality and appropriate ways to protect themselves from sexually transmitted diseases and HIV-AIDS.

When those organizations are concerned that we are not putting enough emphasis on education and developing the kind of capacity for our young people to understand the importance of the various things that need to be considered when people enter into sexual relationships, we need to be putting more emphasis on that side of the equation and I wish it was possible.

[The Deputy Speaker, NDP, Bill Blaikie]

Is the House ready for the question?