House of Commons Hansard #80 of the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was judiciary.

Topics

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

Mr. Speaker, his ears are working fine, regrettably. It is incredibly unfortunate that this is in fact the case. For many months now this bill has been coming forward. I do not know about the hon. member or my colleagues, but I know that during the last election I had numerous debates with members of the Liberal Party and the NDP. They all came forward saying yes, they were going to get tough on crime. They said yes, they supported mandatory minimum sentences. They said yes, they supported dangerous offender legislation.

Now here we are in the chamber with an opportunity to pass the very bill that the member describes, one that would prevent somebody who has already committed horrible offences from being able to recommit those offences, and the members opposite and to my right, or should I say to my left, simply refuse to come along with us and support this proposition when we know Canadians want this.

Last fall, on our safe streets and communities task force, I spent many months with the current finance minister travelling across the country talking to members, police officers, families and people who have been victimized by crime Everywhere we went, at every stop across this country, Canadians demanded that we get tough on crime, that we do not allow people who have committed horrible crimes to reoffend. Once we know they are dangerous, they should not be let out again, yet that is what the previous Liberal government has allowed for so long.

Here we now have the opportunity to correct this huge problem within our justice system. Those members are sitting on their hands in this empty chamber, as I see when I look across, and are doing nothing to support the measures that we have come forward with in a mandate given to us by the Canadian public.

I implore the members opposite, the few who are here, to support this measure.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Mr. Speaker, I have to say that the government benches look pretty empty too.

I am waiting for the day when members of the Conservative Party and that government will be able to govern without having to mention the opposition parties. I wait for the day when the government will be able to stand on its own feet as a mature government and articulate public policy on its own merits, when it does not require reference to the Liberals this, the NDP that, and the Bloc the other. When is the government going to grow up and articulate good public policy from the floor in the House? That is what I am waiting for.

I note in regard to a lot of what the member was just referring to when describing the circumstances surrounding rape that those conditions also exist in the Criminal Code and allow the designation of a dangerous offender now.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

Mr. Speaker, coming from a member opposite who calls our border officers wimps, I do not think he has a lot of credibility on criminal justice issues.

I can assure him that we have tremendous support for this legislation. He may be embarrassed at what his government has not done over the past 13 years and may want us to not refer to its failures going forward. We have no other alternative but to look at the problems that party has left with our society that we are here now to correct. I would encourage the member and his colleagues to support this measure.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Mr. Speaker, before I get started on this particular bill, I want to remind the minority government of neo-cons that in fact more people voted against them than voted for them. Sometimes that is just a little lost on members opposite. If we were to look at the polls today, even fewer would vote for them than voted for them during the election. The consequence of that is that the new minority government has to solicit the cooperation of the parties opposite.

I want to note that the government dropped 11 bills on the floor of this House and the Liberal Party consented to six of them. Like that, we consented to six of them, largely because they mirrored legislation that was put forward by the Liberal government in the last Parliament. Poor fellows, like they cannot take success. Is that not what it boils down to? They cannot take success. They got six free bills.

The Conservatives talk about being tough on crime. Well tough does not mean stupid on crime at the same time. This is one of those bills that is just plain stupid because it will not survive any kind of constitutional challenge. It is a classic.

The Conservatives whip up a fear, get people all wired about how dangerous it is out there, that the whole nation is just going down the tubes, and then put forward another dumb bill. Here we have one more dumb bill that somehow or another is going to save the nation from this massive crime rate.

I listened to the member for Wild Rose being rebutted by the member from the Bloc Québécois because the member for Wild Rose is absolutely convinced that we are in fact under a massive crime rate in this country. The statistics of course do not bear him out. They have not borne him out for the last decade, but that really does not much matter to him. It does not seem to much matter to the members in his party because they basically traffic in fear and smear. They get the population worked up about something that does not exist and then propose a solution to a problem that does not exist. They then run away from it because the crown attorneys, the defence counsel, the accused, the victims, and the judges will have to clean up the mess afterward.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

Order, please. I am having difficulty hearing the member for Scarborough—Guildwood. I think all hon. members would want to keep their questions and comments until after the member's speech, when there will be an opportunity to ask him questions or provide him with some comments. Let us allow the hon. member to continue with his speech.

The hon. member for Scarborough—Rouge River on a point of order.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Mr. Speaker, I want to support you on that. There has not been a five second window since my colleague began his speech that the members of the government have not been yelling and interjecting. I simply ask for the courtesy to let the member deliver--

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

I thank the hon. member, but I think I did just mention that. The hon. member for Scarborough—Guildwood.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the intervention on the part of the Speaker and my hon. colleague from Scarborough—Rouge River. Certainly, the hon. members opposite have no interest in dealing with facts or in dealing with the Constitution or in dealing with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. For whatever else the Liberal Party stands for, it is the party of the Constitution and the party of our Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Let me turn to the bill which, I submit, is deeply flawed. Members who might be watching this debate, and I cannot imagine why they would be, but maybe they are, should know that in the Criminal Code, as it presently exists, there is a dangerous offender section. It is section 753. It says:

--definition of that expression in section 752 and the offender constitutes a threat to the life, safety or physical or mental well-being of other persons on the basis of evidence--

That is evidence, gentlemen:

--establishing

(i) a pattern of repetitive behaviour--

(ii) a pattern of persistent aggressive behaviour by the offender--

(iii) any behaviour by the offender, associated with the offence for which he or she has been convicted, that is of such a brutal nature as to compel the conclusion that the offender’s behaviour in the future is unlikely to be inhibited by normal standards of behavioural restraint;--

That already exists in the Criminal Code. This bill does not change that. This bill stays with that standard of behaviour.

What is going to happen if this bill passes? First of all, a crown attorney is going to have to give a notice. He is going to give a notice presumably after two convictions. Right now there does not need to be two convictions. It can be done after one conviction, if it can be established that the individual is going to be a threat to society. In fact, an indeterminate sentence can be obtained based upon simply one conviction. The crown attorney is still forced to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that those elements of that individual's behaviour threaten society at large.

What will happen here is that the crown attorney is going to give notice. Think about that for a second. The defence counsel probably has someone who is a pretty bad person, probably has evidenced behaviour so much so that he or she has been convicted of at least two offences. That person is now looking at an indeterminate sentence, not a determinate sentence. In other words, throw the person away.

Now the defence counsel is going to say to himself or herself, “Well, we are going to fight this and we are going to fight this hard”. There are no deals and no convictions.

What will happen then? The defence counsel is in effect going to force the crown attorney to accept the plea to something lesser than possibly is appropriate under the circumstances. Now we are looking at an indeterminate sentence rather than a determinate sentence. Instead of the individual going away for an appropriate period of time on the apprehension that they may go away for a much longer period of time, the defence counsel will try and plead it down to something less.

Purists in the chamber may think that this is not very good at all. On the other hand, that is the way the court system works. I do not see that changing any time soon.

We will have a perverse consequence. In fact, the courts are going to get clogged, the crown attorneys are going to have to make deals that they do not want to make, and the courts, ending up clogged, are going to actually process fewer people who have been charged with offences.

The reaction of the crown attorney is either twofold. The crown attorney can either say, “Okay, let us bring it on and let us have the fight” or it is going to be, “Let us make a deal time”. Those are the two choices that the crown attorney will be faced with. The likelihood is that the crown attorney is going to accept something of a lesser plea because in fact the provinces are not going to be greatly more resourced in order to be able to deal with this legislation.

We can ignore that kind of advice on the part of the experts that come before or will come before the committee, or we can take it into consideration when drafting a piece of legislation.

The risk is that it puts the entire section 752 in jeopardy. One can go to the bank on it. It will be absolutely certain that if in fact this section were to pass, if in fact an individual were to be convicted under this section, this legislation would be challenged by defence counsel in court under a charter application. There is an absolute certainty of that.

We put at risk the entire section 752. The court might either strike this bill or it might strike the entire section. We again have an ironic consequence that we would lose the entire dangerous offender section and have nothing, which I do not think any party in this House would support that kind of consequence.

We are playing a high stakes game here with things that clearly are of serious consequence. I do not think hon. members need to take my word for it or anybody else in this chamber. They might actually listen to what other people who have expertise in this area actually say about it.

If I may take some time, I would like to reference David Paciocco, a professor of law at the University of Ottawa. He begins his speech by saying that the best that could be said about this bill is that it is an amalgam of unenforceable and constitutionally suspect provisions. It puts the burden of three strikes on the accused to prove that he or she does not pose that kind of danger that the dangerous offenders do.

In other words, it reverses the burden. We are reversing the burden on somebody who has to prove that they will not likely do this action. When we do that we, in effect, are having to prove a negative. If we are having to prove a negative, the courts that are constitutionally charged with reviewing this under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms will find it very difficult to accept that this is constitutionally acceptable.

The individual accused and convicted has to prove that he or she is incapable of restraining himself or herself, likely to cause death or injury in the future, have a substantial or general degree of indifference to the consequences of his or her behaviour, and be marked with an incorrigible brutality.

The professor goes on to say that, in effect, judges are forced to find that offenders pose the kinds of risks I just described not only in cases where there is a reasonable doubt but even in cases where it is equally probable that the offender poses no such risk. Therein lies the difficulty that this bill poses for those members in this party who actually have to read the bill in the context of the Constitution and in the context of how courts actually behave.

I listened to some of the rhetoric from the other side and I wondered whether in fact those members ever actually go to courts and actually see how they operate. Do they see what the dockets are like for these judges, some 200 or 300 cases on a docket at any given time? Do they realize that plea bargaining is in fact a way of life in courts and that we would have no justice system at all, that it would grind to a halt if in fact every section of the Criminal Code was constitutionally challenged? All we have done is raised a huge flag for defence counsel to challenge this constitutionally.

The professor goes on to say that if this were true, the provision would not only fail to meet the rational connection test, it would also fail to meet the ultimate balancing that is done under the proportionality test. The provision costs to the liberty interest of the convict would outweigh the benefits the provision would produce. In either event, section 1 would not justify the reverse onus.

The court is continually balancing the rights of the accused versus the safety and security of society. It is called the proportionality test, and it is a constant factor in any judge's mind. Does the sentence or the proposal for an indeterminate sentence weigh against the legitimate concerns for the safety and security of the larger society?

I hear the rhetoric about getting tough on crime. I respectfully submit to members opposite that they should get a little smarter on crime. They should not put legislation on the floor which will almost inevitably be challenged in the courts or which will almost inevitably see charter challenges from defence counsel.

I submit from our side of the aisle that there is no way we can support this legislation. It does not meet the proportionality test. It does not meet the constitutional test. We cannot reverse the onus in a situation of this kind. We are, in effect, saying to the courts that the person should be put away indeterminately and that person would have to prove they would not offend in the future. This is very poorly drafted legislation. It deserves to fail.

I would be interested in any questions that members opposite may want to propose.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

4:25 p.m.

Oxford Ontario

Conservative

Dave MacKenzie ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Safety

Mr. Speaker, I have listened to a great deal of what my colleague across the floor had to say. I may have spent more time in courtrooms than most lawyers have. One of the things I noticed during that 30 year career was the fact that lawyers continually challenged the law. I do not think we should be concerned about that.

He is fully aware that reverse onus provisions in the code already have been challenged and upheld as constitutionally strong.

The member talked about plugging up the courts. The courts do not continually deal with these people, but they deal with them enough times that we need to do something. We are talking about the worst of the worst offenders. They are not shoplifters or people who break windows. These people have run afoul of the law in the most heinous way. We should not, as a society, necessarily have to wait for them for a fourth, fifth or sixth time. This is a law that only makes sense to ordinary Canadians.

What do we have to fear if someone does challenge it in the courts, being that a lawyer's role is to continually challenge the law? We should not prejudge what the courts would say.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Mr. Speaker, I agree with the member. We are dealing with the worst of the worst and, therefore, a very small minority of people. At any given time, there are only 21,000 people under Correctional Service supervision. Of those, about 8,000 are in some form of non-custodial supervision. We are dealing with a very small subset of a group of people. The commitment on the part of the Conservative Party during the election was to crack down on crime. In fact, it is cracking down on a very micro-subset of the worst of the worst.

I point out that section 752 has already been constitutionally challenged and has already been upheld in the courts. By putting this overreach into the courts is in fact opening up section 752 for an entire constitutional challenge. The risk he runs does not in any way commensurate with the harm that he wishes to address.

First, we are dealing with a micro-subset of a subset of a micro-subset. Second, he is putting at risk the entire constitutionality of section 752.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Mr. Speaker, during these remarks and prior remarks there was a suggestion that this legislation attempted to deal with the worst of the worst.

I have looked at the schedule of offences listed in the bill. While they are all criminal offences, they might not be classed as the worst of the worst. There are some 56 separate offences listed, not just the rape scenario mentioned by one of the members opposite. I agree a rape situation is an extremely serious offence and three of them in a row leads one to an obvious conclusion. However, the offences listed can include ordinary assault, an abduction of a child from Canada, which could be a parent leaving with the child without authorization, and robbery. I am not saying they are not criminal offences, but the members opposite described these offences as the worst of the worst.

Would my colleague care to comment on the list, given that we are dealing with a “three strikes and you're out” presumptive scenario in the bill?

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Mr. Speaker, I think California has something of a parallel legislation and it is finding that it does not work. It catches a bunch of unintended consequences. My hon. colleague addresses one of the unintended consequences.

The members opposite think this is like three brutal assaults, therefore this person is unable to control himself or herself. This constitutes a danger to society and, therefore, the individual should be put away as a dangerous offender. However, by lowering the standard of the offence, effectively we are opening up the entire Criminal Code, within a certain realm, to people who probably the members opposite do no intend to have convicted as serious offenders. By reversing the onus, for instance two assaults and now a third assault, one may or may not be the worst of the worst. One may have other problems that get one there.

The times when I was in court, which I do not think were nearly as frequent as he was in court, a lot of the people convicted were people who had all kinds of other problems. Something in the order of about 70% of the offender population is functionally illiterate. A lot of them have serious mental health issues. What we are doing is designating a lot of these people as dangerous offenders, putting them away in an indeterminate fashion and letting them rot.

I do not see the argument that they hon. members opposite are making to support the bill. It is literally taking a howitzer to kill a gnat.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Mr. Speaker, coming from Winnipeg Centre, one of the most shocking things, when dealing with criminal justice issues or sentencing, is acknowledging the overrepresentation of aboriginal people in our prison system to date.

When I looked at the schedule of offences being contemplated for inclusion under the bill, it struck me right away that it will exacerbate the appalling social situation where aboriginal people are locked up at an alarming rate disproportionate to their size in the population.

Has my colleague given any thought to whether there was any cultural analysis given to the bill when it was crafted in that light?

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Mr. Speaker, the discouraging part is I do not think much analysis has gone into the bill. It is simply election rhetoric and reaction to that rhetoric.

The hon. member rightly points out that, particularly in Manitoba and Saskatchewan, aboriginal offenders are seriously overrepresented in the criminal court system. Frequently they have problems outside of simply criminal issues, whether it is mental health issues or other social issues. The hon. member would know all these things better than I would.

That was my point on the previous issue. The bill will catch a whole bunch of people whom not one person in the chamber thought would get caught. It is easy. An individual has two assaults. This individual is on the streets. The person has an alcohol problem or a mental health issue problem, et cetera. The Crown gives notice, the defence counsel, who is usually duty counsel and does not really know the offender, will try to do his or her best to do a defence on a reverse onus and our friend, on the streets of Winnipeg, is in an indeterminate sentence, which essentially is a life sentence, for what otherwise would have been maybe a two year or a four year conviction.

That is how it will play out. I think there is a significant chance of injustice as a consequence of that.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Batters Conservative Palliser, SK

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Scarborough—Guildwood has stood in the House and referred to the bill as being stupid. I must thank him for this astute legal analysis. As proof of this point, the hon. member offers up the assertion that the bill might be found unconstitutional by our courts because it contains what is called the reverse onus.

Briefly, there is a list of provisions in the Criminal Code containing the reverse onus. They have either been unchallenged through the years or held to be constitutional. Examples of these are: section 515, bail provision; section 490, a sex offender registry provision; section 16, not criminally responsible provision; and section 487, DNA orders. I could go on. In other words, there are multiple precedents in the Criminal Code for a reverse onus provision.

Would the member for Scarborough—Guildwood would rise in his place and retract that statement?

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Not a chance, Mr. Speaker. The hon. member is correct to say that there are reverse onus provisions in the Criminal Code. He is incorrect to say that it is reverse onus for indeterminate sentences. An indeterminate sentence is essentially a life sentence. A person is away at the pleasure of Her Majesty. That is it, end of the story.

It will be a red flag in front of the court which inevitably will be challenged. The hon. member and his government have put the entire dangerous offender section of the Criminal Code at risk by doing so.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Batters Conservative Palliser, SK

Mr. Speaker, to finish up on that last point before I begin my remarks, there are multiple precedents in the Criminal Code for reverse onus provisions. Moreover, the burden is on the accused, an accused who has already been found guilty of the crime. That is key. The person has already been found guilty.

The bill is not stupid. It is the legal analysis of the hon. member opposite that more readily meets this description.

It is humorous to watch the member anticipate, almost with glee, the efforts of defence lawyers. He talks about the amount of time he spent in court, but who we really need to be listening to are the citizens of Canada who send us to this place, who sit and watch this on television and who may have spent no time in the courtroom, but who know, because common sense tells them, that this is the right thing to do for people who commit multiple, heinous crimes. We are talking about the worst of the worst here. We are talking about the Peter Whitmores of this world.

This is part of what sparked this type of courageous bill from the Minister of Justice. We are talking about locking up indeterminately, for at least seven years, the worst of the worst. Canadians coast to coast to coast know it is the right thing to do. It is only the Liberals, the Bloc Québécois and the NDP members who do not know that it is the right thing to do.

It is my privilege today to speak in favour of Bill C-27, which proposes to strengthen and clarify certain provisions relating to dangerous and long term offenders as well as two types of peace bonds. This bill seeks to accomplish the following reforms.

First, it proposes a number of changes to the dangerous offender provisions of the Criminal Code. These changes are designed to address concerns that since 2003 there have been problems encountered in securing dangerous offender designations. These changes include a new reverse onus provision, a new provision that codifies the determination of fitness of sentence, a new declaration provision and some procedural changes regarding the psychiatric assessment.

Second, this bill will introduce a number of amendments to toughen the sections 810.1 and 810.2 peace bonds that allow police and crown prosecutors to impose extensive conditions on individuals in our communities who have a high risk of committing serious sexual or violent offences.

Certainly these reforms are significant in the overall context of offender management, which is the federal responsibility of Correctional Service Canada, or CSC, within the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness. My speech today will focus on the Correctional Service, Canada's management of high risk offenders, and how the proposed provisions will assist these officials to monitor and supervise criminals who are at risk to commit violent and/or sexual offences.

The role of CSC is very important to highlight in the context of the amendments to the sentencing legislation. CSC is generally responsible for the management of all offenders who receive federal sentences of detention, that is, sentences of two years or more in a penitentiary.

Once an offender is sentenced, the role of CSC commences, in balancing assisting offenders in their rehabilitation with measures of control. This role continues throughout the duration of the sentence. Public safety is the paramount consideration.

Upon intake, each offender is assessed to determine appropriate interventions or programs. The assessment is multi-faceted and incorporates risk-based historical factors as well as the need for correctional intervention.

Risk-based historical factors are derived from tools such as criminal records and any sex offence history, as well as guidelines established by the Correctional Service to assess serious harm. The need for correctional intervention is determined through an analysis of factors such as employment, marital and family status, substance abuse, community functioning and the attitude of the offender.

The factors used to determine intervention are dynamic. As such, they require continuous monitoring to establish risks for reoffending posed by the offender at any given time. When all the factors are considered, offenders can be identified as high risk, the level of intervention required to achieve safe and timely reintegration into society can be determined, and a correctional plan can be established for the offender.

The correctional plan provides information about the management of an offender's sentence from beginning to end. It may include correctional interventions such as the referral to one of a range of accredited correctional programs, including the violence prevention program or the national substance abuse program, in order to meet the varying needs of offenders.

Other interventions may include increased levels of contact between an offender and a parole officer, psychological counselling, and community based substance abuse programs. These interventions are crucial in assisting the successful reintegration of offenders.

I have briefly outlined the role of the Correctional Service at intake. I will now speak about parole offenders generally and how this relates to the legislation before the House today.

Generally, an offender may or may not be granted parole eligibility by a judge in accordance with the Criminal Code. Offenders who are granted parole eligibility must serve one-third of their sentence before they are eligible to be released on parole. For certain violent offenders a judge may impose parole eligibility at one-half of the sentence or 10 years, whichever is less. For dangerous offenders, there is no parole eligibility for the first seven years and then every two years thereafter.

The offences that carry a parole eligibility requirement of one-half of the offender's sentence must be pursued by way of indictment and may not be a minimum punishment, and the offender must receive a sentence of imprisonment of two years or more. These offences include some of the most egregious crimes, such as sexual interference and sexual exploitation involving victims under 14 years of age.

The paroled release of an offender has a graduated approach rather than a cold release into the community. For instance, conditions may be recommended to the National Parole Board, such as imposing a curfew on the offender, to reduce the risk that the parolee will reoffend.

Offenders who have not been granted parole eligibility under the Criminal Code are eligible for statutory release. This is an inmate's legal entitlement, with exceptions for inmates serving life or indeterminate sentences to be released into the community after serving two-thirds of their sentences.

All federal offenders are to be reviewed for parole by the National Parole Board, if eligible, unless they waive this right. The board, in determining parole, is guided by a list of principles, including that the protection of society is the paramount consideration in all cases. The board must also consider certain criteria to grant parole. It must be of the opinion that an offender will not reoffend.

The National Parole Board must consider whether there is an undue risk to society before the expiration of the offender's sentence. It must also be satisfied that the release of an offender will contribute to the protection of society by facilitating the reintegration of the offender into society as a law-abiding citizen.

For dangerous offenders, the onus is on the offender to prove that he or she poses no risk to the public if parole is granted. Dangerous offenders are very rarely granted even limited parole. According to the National Parole Board, about 99% of all dangerous offender parole applications are rejected outright. This compares to, for example, parole applications for offenders convicted of first degree and second degree murder, whose parole applications are denied about 65% of the time.

As a result, the dangerous offender indeterminate sentence is often referred to as the toughest penalty in Canadian criminal law. Three main areas are considered during the board's review: an assessment of an offender's criminal and social history; the offender's institutional behaviour and results of interventions; and the release plan and community management strategy.

With respect to an offender's criminal and social history, many factors are assessed, such as the details of the offence, criminal history, substance abuse, and physical and mental health. Institutional behaviour and intervention assessment considers any evidence of a change in the offender as a result of the benefit of any treatment or program participation while incarcerated, as well as the offender's understanding of the current offence and previous criminal behaviour.

When assessing the release plan and community management strategy, National Parole Board members will consider the availability of programs or counselling, supervision controls, and whether special conditions are required to manage risk factors in the community.

Given all of these considerations and criteria, along with internal board policies, parole may not be granted to those offenders who are viewed as high risk and represent an undue risk to reoffend.

Canadians across the country have told us that they want to take action on crime. With this landmark legislation, we are delivering, but we cannot do the job alone. We need the support of the opposition MPs to help us pass this important legislation that we have introduced to tackle crime.

Despite grand overtures and rhetoric, the opposition has done little to actually get tough on crime in this Parliament. The opposition talked a lot about getting tough on crime during the election campaign, but this is really about what happens after the election. It is about how members stand in the House and represent their constituents and how they vote.

There is only one party that is sticking up for safe streets and safe communities and sticking up for the safety of our children and our seniors, and that is the Conservative Party of Canada and this government. I call upon the opposition to stop watering down crime legislation and do as it promised in the election campaign. Let us get on with the job of making our streets safe for all Canadians.

I would like to mention a few members in the House who are on board. They know the importance of getting tough on crime. First of all, they are led by the Minister of Justice, but we also have the member for Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, the member for Regina—Qu'Appelle, the member for Wild Rose, the member for Cambridge, the member for Northumberland—Quinte West, the member for Oxford, the member for Okanagan—Shuswap, and the list goes on with every single member on this side of the House. I see the member for Macleod looking at me. I see the member for Vegreville—Wainwright. They all want credit and they are all working extremely hard on this file to get tough on crime. I wish the members opposite would join us in that venture.

I thought I was going to have 10 minutes, but it turns out that I have 20 minutes so I want to talk to the House a little about how crime affects people in my riding of Palliser and across the entire province of Saskatchewan.

In case members do not know, Saskatchewan continues to be the crime capital of Canada under an NDP government. For the information of the House and the members opposite, I would like to let Canadians know what life is like under an NDP government.

Per capita, Saskatchewan's overall crime rate is higher than Ontario's. Saskatchewan is the murder capital of Canada. That is shocking. Saskatchewan has the highest rate of violent offences of any province in Canada. Saskatchewan continues to have the highest property crime rate in Canada. Crime rates for robbery in my home city of Regina are the third highest of any city in the country. Regina has the highest number of car thefts in Canada, again per capita.

All of us in this chamber and everyone watching at home recognize that this is a disgrace. The people of Palliser and the people of Saskatchewan have a right to feel safe in their homes and on their streets. Instead, every year they find that they live in the most dangerous province in Canada, thanks to years of provincial NDP and federal Liberal governments.

One would think that members of the opposition, when presented with a bill like Bill C-27, would support our government's tough new measures to crack down on dangerous offenders. Again, we are talking about the worst of the worst. We are talking about two dozen individuals a year. That is what we are talking about.

The members opposite and the members in the NDP refuse to support this bill, a bill that puts the onus on offenders who have already been convicted of three violent or sexual offences to justify why they should be released into a community. This is perfectly reasonable.

People at home recognize that it is perfectly reasonable. In fact, many of my constituents have contacted me wondering why we give people three chances. This is the Canadian way. We have a heart and we try to rehabilitate people, but there is a certain point at which we have to say enough is enough. Canadians are with us. To me and to the citizens of Palliser, the approach of this government makes a lot of sense.

That is not what we are hearing from the opposition benches today. I cannot believe that those members are not going to support this bill. Canada's new government is ready to take immediate action to get tough on dangerous offenders. I ask the members opposite, particularly the members of the NDP, to stand up today and join our efforts.

I ask that they do the right thing and support our efforts to make our neighbourhoods safe, but perhaps that is wishful thinking. After all, let us look at the record of the NDP when it comes to crime and criminal justice bills. The NDP joined with the Liberals to gut an important piece of our government's legislation, Bill C-9, which would have eliminated house arrest for arsonists, car thieves and criminals who break into the homes of our citizens.

It sounds perfectly reasonable to me that if someone burns down a building, steals a car or breaks into someone's home, they should probably go to jail. The members in the opposition parties do not think so. They think these offenders should be eligible to serve their sentences perhaps in the comfort of their own living rooms. Canadians know that is wrong.

I know the NDP members like to advocate softer sentences for criminals and make excuses for why we should not get tough on crime but Canadians understand that gutting important crime bills and failing to stand behind legislation, like Bill C-27, is simply wrong.

When it comes to Bill C-27, the NDP justice critic did not do the right thing and voice his support for our bill. Instead, he criticized the Conservative government for bringing forward legislation to target dangerous offenders. He suggested that the bill, including its reverse onus provisions, violates the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

However, during the last election campaign the NDP said that it supported a reverse onus on bail for all gun related crimes. The NDP members cannot have it all ways. They cannot say one thing during an election campaign and then do a flip-flop once they come to this chamber. While I am on this topic, I should mention that the former Liberal justice minister also dismissed this bill outright. It is shameful.

It is clear that the NDP are content to say anything to get elected but when it comes to standing behind their words and doing the right thing they simply cannot be trusted. I think the facts speak for themselves. There is only one party in Canada today that is standing up for safer communities, safer neighbourhoods and safer streets and that is the Conservative Party of Canada and this new government.

I am so proud to support Bill C-27 on behalf of the citizens of Palliser. It is the right thing to do. It is the tough action on crime that Palliser residents have called for. What I hear all the time is that enough is enough, and this is the right thing to do.

I would like to take this opportunity during Remembrance Week and with Remembrance Day on Saturday to urge all Canadians to share the story of remembrance and to take the time to remember our veterans and those who currently serve in the Canadian Forces around the world, including our brave men and women in Afghanistan. The veterans and the members of the Canadian Forces are people to whom we owe everything that we enjoy today. We owe everything to those individuals. I urge members to take the time to remember, as I am sure all Canadians will.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

It is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Laval, Health; the hon. member for Nanaimo—Cowichan, Aboriginal Affairs.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Mr. Speaker, I want to try to correct the record, if I may. The member who just spoke referred to Bill C-9, a bill that just passed through this place. While it arguably may not be bang on relevant, it was mentioned by the member in his speech.

The member and the Minister of Justice have publicly stated that arson was removed from Bill C-9. Is the member aware that arson of a dwelling house still remains within Bill C-9? What those members are saying to Canadians, almost every day, is, I could be polite and say that it is wrong, but it is misleading to the point of being deceitful.

Is the member aware that arson of an inhabited dwelling house is a personal injury offence? It is quite unfair to Canadians for him and the justice minister to continue to repeat those remarks. It is misleading and most unfair.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Batters Conservative Palliser, SK

Mr. Speaker, I will certainly look into that. Perhaps he is picking on a technicality in the bill. My understanding is that under the Liberal and NDP versions of justice in this country, people who burn down property should be eligible for a conditional sentence.

I noticed that the member did not mention anything about the fact that for people who break into other people's homes, for theft over $5,000 or auto theft, he had no problem with those individuals perhaps serving those sentences in the comfort of their own living rooms.

The Liberals and NDP just do not get it when it comes to crime. Canadians have had enough and they have said as much. One of the major reasons they elected a new government on January 23 was because they knew it was time to get tough on crime. Canadians want the Liberals and the NDP to stop dragging their feet and pass these important bills, bills that will improve the safety of our streets and communities.

I would like everyone who is listening at home to notice there was no mention whatsoever that persons who commit break and enters and car thieves should not be allowed to serve their sentences in the comfort of their own living rooms. That is the hon. member's view. It is not the view of this government.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Bloc

Luc Malo Bloc Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC

Mr. Speaker, at the beginning of his speech, the hon. member for Palliser waved his arms about and told us that the Liberals, NDP and Bloc Québécois are making a mistake by not supporting this bill. I believe that the majority of the members of this House do not support this bill simply because it is a bad bill.

Most certainly, the Bloc Québécois does not support it because we base our position on what is happening in Quebec. When it come to justice in Quebec, we consider rehabilitation to be the most important thing, and this works. Proof lies in the fact that the crime rate in Quebec is lower than in Canada or the United States.

I wonder if the hon. member for Palliser believes in rehabilitation. Even more so, I wonder and I will put the question to the hon. member, although he says he wants our streets to be safer, why does the government, the Conservative Party wish to allow weapons to circulate freely and with no control on our streets?

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Batters Conservative Palliser, SK

Mr. Speaker, my friend opposite knows that is not the case. This government has actually introduced mandatory minimum penalties for crimes committed with firearms. We believe in effective gun control measures. What we do not believe in is a $2 billion boondoggle registry that did not prevent one crime or save one life.

The member opposite talked about the majority of this House. For the people watching this debate at home, that will be one of the reasons that more Conservative members will be coming to this place. We, on this side of the House, believe in rehabilitation of offenders as well, but in Bill C-27, we are talking about two dozen people in the country, the absolute worst of the worst, people convicted of multiple heinous crimes, people like Peter Whitmore in Saskatchewan who has multiple sexual offences against children. We are talking about putting the onus on those individuals and giving them an indeterminate sentence of seven years.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

NDP

Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

Mr. Speaker, the bluster from the member is quite something when we all know that right now it is possible to declare somebody a dangerous offender the first time they commit a heinous crime of the kind he is describing. The bill does not really add anything to protect Canadians. If someone is a dangerous offender, that is possible.

In my riding there is a group of dedicated, grass roots organizers and volunteers who believe in restorative justice programs. They have organized a youth restorative justice program. They are called the Burnaby Restorative Action Group, BRAG. They cannot get money from any level of government to assist them in that important work.

We all know that restorative justice programs work, that they reduce crime, that they bring offenders and victims together, that they resolve the problems and that they take the responsibility of solving the kinds of problems that led to crime in our cities, communities and neighbours very seriously. Here is a group of dedicated volunteers that cannot get one penny of assistance from the federal government to set that kind of program up, to run it and operate it effectively. I would ask the member if that is appropriate.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Batters Conservative Palliser, SK

Mr. Speaker, this is certainly not bluster. This legislation has received the support of victims' rights groups across the country, as well as the Canadian Professional Police Association. Our new government's stance is in step with the opinion of the vast majority of Canadians that serious crime must equal serious time. It is high time we started looking at crime and punishment through the eyes of victims instead of criminals.

The member mentioned an association in his riding called BRAG. He should take that up with the Minister of Justice on another day. Today we are talking about locking up indefinitely the 24 most dangerous people in this country.