House of Commons Hansard #38 of the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was crime.

Topics

Agriculture and Agri-FoodCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

5 p.m.

Liberal

Roger Valley Liberal Kenora, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is just Kenora. After many decades of being Kenora--Rainy River, it was hard to accept, through the redistribution, the loss of that part of the riding. The hon. member for Thunder Bay--Rainy River now has all the farms and I have all the rocks left in northern Ontario.

The hon. member spoke of negotiating right from the farm door and he spoke of the loss to the dairy industry. As he travels around the riding and is on the doorsteps of the farms, how much is the concern growing about the changes in the dairy industry? How much anguish is being created? What are the people saying when they are right on the doorsteps? They want to know about these changes. They want to know about the future of the dairy industry. What did he hear right at the farm level?

Agriculture and Agri-FoodCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

5 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Boshcoff Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

Mr. Speaker, when the farm groups come to us or when we go to them as individuals, they are imploring--I will not say they are begging. There is such a deep concern. I will try not to overemphasize that or embellish it in any way but each and every dairy farmer talks about this issue. They work so hard as it is. I do not know where they get the time to do the lobbying but they are worried about the future of providing a quality industry. They are in it because they believe in Canada and they believe that providing a first class safe product is what is the best thing for Canadians.

When we meet them we realize they are great families that keep this country solid. I cannot help but be impressed each and every time by the depth of their sincerity and the need for us to respond in an immediate and positive way. That is what compelled me and, I am certain, everyone else on the committee, except for the government, to support them.

Agriculture and Agri-FoodCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake, MB

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. It is quite clear that the opposition parties are in favour of the motion and the government is not and therefore I ask that you seek unanimous consent to carry the motion on division and then we can get on with orders of the day.

Agriculture and Agri-FoodCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

5:05 p.m.

NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie

Is there unanimous consent for the request by the member for Selkirk--Interlake?

Agriculture and Agri-FoodCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

5:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

No.

Agriculture and Agri-FoodCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Alex Atamanenko NDP British Columbia Southern Interior, BC

Mr. Speaker, the main issue facing us today is that dairy producers are being hurt by the importation of milk protein concentrates. The reason for this is that they are classified as proteins and not milk products. Eighty-five per cent of these milk protein concentrates are over the protein content and in this case 87.5% are pure protein which allows them to enter without tariffs. If the protein content were lower, there would be certain tariffs.

The committee recommended that:

--all milk protein concentrates, regardless of their protein content, under tariff line 0404, or a tariff quota to be negotiated.

One kilogram of this milk protein concentrate, which I believe is coming in from New Zealand and the European Union, equals 2.5 kilograms of displaced milk concentrate. This means it is more efficient for our processors to import this protein thereby giving producers two and a half times as much milk protein concentrate but they are not sure what to do with it. I think this is the key.

I am encouraged by the fact that the Minister of Agriculture asked producers and processors to get together to try to come to an acceptable solution that would benefit both of them. However, if we allow unlimited milk protein content, or MPCs, to enter Canada, this could in the long run destroy our whole supply management system.

The government says that it wants to protect the supply management system. It must have the means and the solutions to do so. Our nation's identity is at stake. We developed and implemented the supply management system. It is a part of the agricultural sector that gives producers the opportunity to earn a bit of money. If we don't protect it, we will see the slow death of the supply management system.

I have noted the following. It seems to me that Canada sometimes hesitates to protect our particular programs at the WTO and under NAFTA. We are told that we must not create precedents, but it is possible that we are alone in not attempting to do so. There are already precedents. There are governments that do their utmost to protect their agriculture industry and above all their producers. That is our duty.

If we do not stand up for our dairy producers in this case we will see a slow erosion of supply management. I am encouraged once again by the government's stance that it wants to protect supply management. If we bow to international pressures and we modify it a little bit then what is the stop them? What is to stop other trading partners, such as the Americans, through the WTO to make an effort to get rid, for example, of our Canadian Wheat Board?

Any changes to the Canadian Wheat Board should be made by the farmers and not by governments, whether this one or any other government, and especially not by international organizations such as the WTO.

The three western provincial governments recently stated that we must modify supply management to increase our market access. Interestingly, I was just at a meeting of the trade committee and we were talking about market access and how it affects supply management. Specifically, they want us to increase our TRQs from the current 5%.

Apparently, if this were done this would somehow gain more market access in spite of the fact that there are heavy government subsidies in agriculture in the European Union and the United States. What we should be doing at the WTO is getting other countries to increase their TRQs to the 5% that was agreed upon in the Uruguay round. The TRQs in the European Union, for example, for pork, which is their sensitive category, is 0.5%.

That does not help our pork producers who want to export to the European Union. Somehow we are being asked, if we do not protect our supply management at the World Trade Organization, to increase the quotas for other countries to export their produce to our country and that somehow this will help us get more access to world markets. I do not think the two are tied in.

What we are talking about today is one small aspect of supply management, one small aspect of agriculture that we as Canadians have developed. This is one system that actually works and where people actually make money. It is very important in this case for us to be very careful before we fool around with the system.

I want to emphasize that we can fight for better access to world markets at the WTO table but this should not be at the expense of one segment of our farmers, those who are part of the supply management system. We know that farming is in a state of crisis and we are looking at different ways of solving the crisis. We need steps to remedy the situation.

The answer to helping our farmers is not by slowly eroding one part of the agriculture industry that works for us. While it may seem sort of far away somewhere in Geneva, this one point with regard to milk protein concentrates could be what starts this snowball rolling. I think we need to be very careful at how we approach the situation.

Once again, I am encouraged by the Minister of Agriculture and the fact that we are standing up for this system at the World Trade Organization. It is a system that works and it does not cost the taxpayer any money. Other countries are aggressively protecting their agriculture.

Thus, our initial position should be very strong. Our country has distinctive elements, such as supply management and our Canadian Wheat Board. It is up to us to decide the future of our agrifood industry.

In my opinion, what is most important is that we are responsible for protecting Quebec and Canadian producers at all costs. That is our duty.

Today, the supply management system is at risk. Tomorrow, it could be the Canadian Wheat Board. In the end, it may be our Canadian identity.

By standing up and working together with our primary producers in this instance, and by our friends all across Canada, we are not only protecting agriculture but we are standing up for our rural way of life which is under threat, through the World Trade Organization, by multinational companies which are under threat by other trading partners, such as our friends to the south who want us to disband different programs that we have.

Therefore, it is our duty to work together with the producers and the processors to protect supply management by ensuring that milk protein concentrates do not hurt the livelihoods of those producers, specifically in Quebec and Ontario.

It is our duty to stand firm.

Agriculture and Agri-FoodCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, I have listened to the entire debate. I find it interesting. The members from the Conservative side continue to drift back and forth into a discussion about support for supply management, but I am pretty sure, from the members' comments, that it was a show of a lack of confidence in the supply management system and that the real agenda is changes to the supply management system.

Having said that, I formerly was the parliamentary secretary to the minister of public works and government services, who also had responsibility for the Canadian Wheat Board, and I know quite a bit about that. I find it very interesting to note that the member very clearly has stated that the intent of the government is to put on pressure to basically eliminate the Canadian Wheat Board.

This causes me great concern, because that tends to favour some at the expense of others. If producers are close to the border, chances are they have opportunities to market their products across the border at the expense of those who have significant transport issues with regard to marketing their grains and seeds.

Since he raised it and he knows very well that the board of directors is made up of the producers, and the board of directors is not calling for the dissolution of the Canadian Wheat Board, It is probably incumbent upon the member to explain why he feels the Canadian Wheat Board is going to benefit our farmers.

Agriculture and Agri-FoodCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

5:15 p.m.

NDP

Alex Atamanenko NDP British Columbia Southern Interior, BC

Mr. Speaker, so far we have seen, and the survey has said, that 88% of producers/farmers want to retain the Canadian Wheat Board. They want to have a say in the future of the Canadian Wheat Board. We have to listen to them and make sure that they are the ones who will decide what the future of the Wheat Board will be.

So far it has worked to keep the prices our producers get at a fairly high level. The Canadian Wheat Board, as a single marketing agency, has been able to seek out markets throughout the world, as we know. It has worked in the best interests of farmers, and the idea of somehow instituting a dual marketing system probably will not work. It will turn into an open marketing system.

Agriculture and Agri-FoodCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

5:15 p.m.

Bloc

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to commend my colleague on his speech. I appreciate working with him, because he was appointed as his party's critic for agriculture and agri-food.

I would like to come back to what I have heard Conservative members saying today and also what we heard in committee about invoking article XXVIII of GATT. The Conservatives tell us that invoking this article would create a problem with the United States and Mexico because NAFTA would take precedence.

However, Canada's milk producers received a legal opinion that mentions—and this is easy to check—that in 1996, two years after Canada succeeded in negotiating the power to limit milk protein imports at the WTO, the United States called for a NAFTA panel to contest what Canada was trying to do with regard to milk proteins. Canada won. That is completely in line with that we have always said. Canada has always defended this issue because, historically, we have always been able to limit milk protein imports.

I would like to ask my colleague what he thinks about this situation and particularly this argument that, in the end, does not hold up because, since 1996, Canada has won over the United States. If the United States or Mexico ever wanted to contest anything, we would come back and say that for 10 years we have had this panel decision that protects us.

Agriculture and Agri-FoodCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

5:15 p.m.

NDP

Alex Atamanenko NDP British Columbia Southern Interior, BC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his question.

Generally speaking, from what I can see, Canada is sometimes too timid. We have to be bold and have political will if we want to protect the supply management system. We must do so at all costs.

I agree with my hon. colleague about the producers and the legal opinion they received. We have to be strong and protect our own sector, regardless of what happens to other countries. We have to protect our own producers, not the producers in the United States or the European Union.

Agriculture and Agri-FoodCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the member's speech and his comments on this issue. It is quite a big issue in my riding of Tobique—Mactaquac, where we have a number of dairy producers.

The concern I have with the motion as it is presented right now goes to one of the points the member made in terms of standing up for the entire industry, which we are trying to do at the WTO. When we talk about putting this strictly around the concentrates, are we getting ourselves to a point where we are going to be raising motions and negotiating this one motion at a time over a period of two to three weeks? What kind of mess is that going to get us into? Or is it? I would ask the hon. member for his comment.

Agriculture and Agri-FoodCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I have heard this at least three or four times today. My understanding is that the motion we are debating is a motion to concur in a report of the Standing Committee of Agriculture and Agri-Food of the House of Commons, and that it is in fact the first report. If that is the case, maybe the member would like to rephrase the question about what exactly the House is debating today.

Agriculture and Agri-FoodCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

5:20 p.m.

NDP

Alex Atamanenko NDP British Columbia Southern Interior, BC

Mr. Speaker, it may seem that it is not worthwhile doing this, but when we start attacking a system that is in place, it does not take much to get it going, to start poking away here and to leave it to the WTO or other discussions. I will repeat that I think we have to show that we have a will to fight for all of our agricultural producers. In this case, it happens to be those in the dairy industry, which is part of the supply management system.

Agriculture and Agri-FoodCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

Mr. Speaker, again, I think it is clear that all members in the House are behind supply management and I thank all members for their comments. I am wondering as we go through this discussion if in fact the motion, as was raised on this side, actually has support at this time. In terms of supply management, have the farmers of Ontario actually given their support to this motion in respect of its timing on one issue? I ask that question of my colleague.

Agriculture and Agri-FoodCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

5:20 p.m.

NDP

Alex Atamanenko NDP British Columbia Southern Interior, BC

Mr. Speaker, it is my understanding that the producers in Ontario and Quebec support the motion.

Agriculture and Agri-FoodCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

5:20 p.m.

Bloc

Pierre Paquette Bloc Joliette, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to start by congratulating the hon. member for Richmond—Arthabaska on his work, on introducing this motion in the House, and especially on asking me to second it. I am proud to do so.

Contrary to what a Conservative member was saying a little while ago, this is the right time for the motion. For too long and on too many occasions, the government—whether that of the previous Liberals or the current Conservatives—has claimed that it could not defend managed supply, have assistance programs in the apparel and textile sector, and do something to save the bicycle industry because the time was not right. They claim that something is happening now at the World Trade Organization and we cannot frustrate our trading partners. If we did, they would take a dim view of Canada, and that would weaken our negotiating position.

Let us look at the facts. They did not have any plan to help the apparel and textile sector. The Hong Kong meeting was, at best, a continuation of the work. No major progress was made. In the meantime, we have lost a tremendous number of jobs in these sectors and are still doing so. Still there is no assistance program.

It is the same in the bicycle industry. They do not want to antagonize China and Vietnam, with the result that nothing is done. They are prepared to sacrifice our industries for some alleged progress in trade agreements. We know that the WTO is currently deadlocked, not only in agriculture but in other areas as well. Nevertheless, they still say that the time is not ripe yet to help an economic sector or an employment sector in Canada.

I have been listening to this argument for as long as I have been here: it is never the right time to introduce a motion defending anyone in Canada and Quebec.

In actual fact, passing this motion, like the one last November 22, would send a clear message at a time when the director general of the World Trade Organization, Mr. Pascal Lamy, is talking about a deadline of maybe July 31 to reach an agreement on agriculture.

It is important for the House to reaffirm its support for supply management, especially in relation to something new. It is obviously not directly a question of supply management in this debate but rather of a flaw in the Canadian customs system that makes it possible for milk substitutes to enter freely and undermine managed supply.

If this motion were adopted by this House—I hope and think it will be—not only would we be sending a clear message about this very specific issue of milk proteins, but we would also be sending a very clear message to the entire international community that our supply management system is very important to us. There is room for negotiation on various aspects. However, there is no room for compromise on the pillars of this system. We will try to sort out the necessary adjustments with the others.

I want to remind hon. members that the World Trade Organization is responsible for controlling international trade relations. It is not there just to outright lift restrictions on all trade relations. That is true for agriculture, culture and for other areas. In that respect, too often people think—I get the feeling this is the case for the Conservative party—that the equation is as follows: the World Trade Organization equals excessive easing of restrictions on trade. That is not it. The World Trade Organization is there to civilize trade and ensure that disputes are resolved without applying the might is right rule. That does not mean we necessarily have to end up with agreements that further ease restrictions on trade. This is particularly true when it comes to agriculture.

We would not be having this debate if, on January 31, the Federal Court had not confirmed the decision of the Canadian International Trade Tribunal opening the Canadian market to imports of milk protein concentrates. As hon. members know, for supply management to work, imports have to be highly regulated. Under this system, supply meets demand and price is agreed upon with processors and producers to ensure suitable income for agricultural producers. However, in order to be able to adjust supply to demand, we must ensure that the Canadian and Quebec market is not invaded through the back by foreign imports.

There was a real weakness there, which has been exposed in this House several times.

We are all well aware that new technology has made it possible to break milk down into several parts. Instead of importing milk into Canada, we are importing milk proteins. We can import butter fat and completely reconstitute milk from a number of products not currently covered under tariff lines.

Dairy producers have asked, and rightly so, that milk protein concentrates be considered as dairy products, just like milk, and be subject to tariff lines and quotas. This is not yet the case. In this respect, I must say that the federal government has not fulfilled its part of the social contract because—it must be said—supply management is a social contract wherein each party has certain responsibilities.

As we all know, when there is a surplus, producers are required to absorb it. Currently, given that there are no import quotas for milk proteins, these surpluses are growing and posing a real threat to supply management.

For example, we are told that in cheese production, milk protein concentrates could replace up to 25% of Canadian milk proteins. That will make for a very significant shortfall.

I remember that in a previous debate, someone stated that this type of import could cause losses amounting to $175 million for Canada and about $70 million for Quebec producers.

There is another aspect I think deserves some emphasis. Not only has this loophole weakened the supply management system, it has also undermined an agricultural development model, which is far more serious. If this system falls apart, we can say goodbye to family farms. Proof of this can be found in Australia and New Zealand. When they dropped the existing regulatory structure, which was not exactly like supply management, but quite similar, the number of farms shrank. Apparently, only industrial-scale farms were able to survive in that market.

For example, whereas the number of farms was declining by 1% to 2.4% in the years before deregulation in 2000-01, the rate of decrease in the number of dairy farms—I am still talking about Australia—went from 8.2% to 6.7%, 3.6%, 9.8% and 3.7% in the five years that followed deregulation. From nearly 14,000 in 1994-95, the number of dairy farms declined to just over 9,000 in 2004-05.

This is a societal choice that is being compromised by the federal government's inertia. This was true in the case of the Liberals, and it appears, unfortunately, that it is still true in the case of the Conservatives.

Judging by some members' remarks, we cannot say that we are going to drop supply management. Those members have voted on several occasions, as we have, to maintain supply management.

During the election campaign, the current Prime Minister promised to maintain this system. As I said when I began my remarks, the government will simply say that this is not the right time. But I think it is the right time. Management of the World Trade Organization is exerting an enormous amount of pressure on all the countries—not only Canada, but the European Union and the United States as well—to reach some kind of agreement by July 31.

In my opinion, passing this motion would send a strong message from all members of this House to the international community that we have a system that works well. Everyone agrees. We have a system that requires border control, first of quotas, then of quota-free tariff lines, and we have to maintain that system because it is our model of agricultural development.

For some time now, I have heard members referring to isolation, and that bothers me.

When he appeared before a committee, the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food, in answer to a question from the member for Richmond—Arthabaska, said that we were isolated. Are we that isolated? Of course, economically, Canada does not have the same dimensions as the European Union or the United States. When the Americans defend the Farm Bill, are they isolated? No, they seek to obtain the best for all their farmers, as we do during negotiations. When the European Union defends its subsidies and its domestic support, do we say that Europeans are isolated? No, we say that they defend their model of agricultural development that is the Common Agricultural Policy, the CAP. It is totally normal.

When it is Canada's turn to defend its farmers, then it is awful, because it seems that Canada will get isolated. I think that the government is playing on words. Wanting to defend agriculture and producers, particularly when it comes to the supply management system, will not lead to isolation. It is simply doing the work that it has to do as a responsible government. In this case, it is defending Canada's national interests. Indeed, Canada is not a nation; as you know, the Canadian territory is comprised of several nations. However, it defends what it has to defend and it will find the compromises that are necessary. However, shady deals are not acceptable.

It seems that the Conservative government clearly refuses to support the motion. That is the impression I get. I hope that at the end of the day, after our debate, the Conservatives will change their minds. It seems to me that there is nothing contentious about the motion. I will read the motion adopted by the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food because I think it is important:

1. That, since all the parties support supply management, the government take immediate action to strengthen import control measures, which are crucial to supply management, by limiting the importation of milk protein concentrates and any product specifically designed to circumvent the supply management rules.

If we really want to keep the supply management system, we should come quite easily to an agreement.

2. That the government adopt regulations that would classify all milk protein concentrates, regardless of their protein content, under tariff line 0404, or a tariff quota to be negotiated.

I remind you that as far as I know, the Americans use that process. If the government does not want to do that and prefers to involve the whole House, very well. Then, legislation like that mentioned in the third part of the motion would be needed:

3. That the government invoke Article XXVIII of the GATT where necessary in order to cap imports of milk protein concentrates by immediately launching negotiations with its trade partners and by amending its tariff schedule through a legislative measure adopted by Parliament.

That goes to show that there are options. What may be lacking is the political will. As I indicated earlier, we are probably going to be told that the problem is not that the government does not want to ensure that all the conditions are in place for the supply management system to be maintained, but that the timing is not right. Those of us who have participated in negotiations in the past know that the timing is right to send a message, if we do not want to give the impression, as we did on the softwood lumber issue, that we are prepared to settle for a bargain basement deal.

The Americans heard clearly. Today still, we know that negotiations are conducted based on the framework agreement and that a deadline has been set. The matter has to be resolved by a given time on a given date. Canada is the one setting this deadline for itself. So, what happens? The Americans sit and wait. As the deadline nears, the “bananisation”, to use the word coined by Mr. Parizeau to describe the action of causing oneself to slip on a banana peel, intensifies, as we put pressure on ourselves. That is precisely what we are doing right now by saying that Canada is isolated.

I think that it is important to remember something else. Before the election, the Bloc Québécois held, here in Ottawa, a working meeting between the Union des producteurs agricoles and all the embassy and consulate representatives to explain what supply management is all about. It is a fact that some do not understand what it is about. They think that it is a subsidized system. They heard about it from the Americans, who said it was not a very good system, or from the Australians or New-Zealanders.

If they were presented with the nuts and bolts of this system, I am convinced that a fair number of developing countries which want to have their own agricultural model could find in it a system they could adopt to have human-scale farms.

Naturally, we were once again told that New Zealand and Australia once had similar systems, which they abandoned, and that was for the best.

I will read a small excerpt from a document written by Daniel-Mercier Gouin, an economics professor at Université Laval. He said, in the conclusion of one of his studies on supply management, that:

New Zealand's experience can be enlightening. The deregulation gradually implemented in this sector in New Zealand between 1985 and 1993, which has since become total, does not seem, at first glance, to have benefited consumers with regard to prices...

We hear that type of comment often. Furthermore, Mr. Gouin said:

Not only did consumer prices increase more than anywhere else [Australia, the United States, the Netherlands, France and Canada, over an extended period], but the increase was the most dramatic for fluid milk, which in 2002 was priced at four times its 1981 level.

The consumer would not come out as a winner in deregulation.

I know the Conservative government does not want to deregulate, but allowing these substitutes, the milk proteins, to enter is causing us to deregulate this sector.

Mr. Gouin goes on to say:

Nor did deregulation in this sector benefit New Zealand dairy producers, who lost the market powers they held through the regulatory mechanisms that administered the farmgate price of fluid milk deliveries.

Who benefited? The distributors did—not the consumers.

We can even come back to another Canadian example that has been cause for much debate in this House. During the mad cow crisis, when we were forced to dispose of surplus cull meat, I never saw the price of beef go down. At home I do the grocery shopping. There are some people who pocketed the profits, but it was not the agricultural producers or the consumers. It was the middleman.

Behind this desire to deregulate, there is the reality that this would benefit neither consumers nor agricultural producers. Consequently, it seems to me that our parliamentary responsibility is to defend the interests of the majority, that is of both consumers and agricultural producers. To that end, and in order to find the right system, we must do more than just pay lip service to the protection of our supply management system—we must take appropriate action. We must take action at the WTO, we must take action in Canada, we must take action in this House.

I believe that the government should give a very considered response to the committee's question and, as I stated, review the possibility of adopting a regulation to again classify protein concentrates under tariff item 0404, or returning to this chamber and invoking article XXVIII of the WTO. It is allowed, as you know. As the member for Richmond—Arthabaska mentioned earlier, a special NAFTA group has already examined the validity of this step.

Thus, there are no technical barriers; it is simply a question of political will. There are solutions. I would like the government to change its position somewhat.

I will close by mentioning the surveys. Some may say that agricultural producers will obviously defend their system because it provides them with a reasonable income. It is also true that the opposition parties will support it because 40% of Quebec's agricultural income is derived from supply management. For us, it is an important sector and, in addition, people have placed their trust in us and hope that we will defend them. But a survey of 1,500 Canadians conducted between May 15 and May 21, 2006, by Léger Marketing revealed that the majority were in favour of the results of supply management or of the system itself.

In closing, I have a statistic that I find fascinating. Fifty per cent agreed with keeping supply management and 35% said they were somewhat in favour of it. We know that the concept of supply management is not always readily understood and that, as I mentioned, it should be explained more. So, just imagine if the Conservative government were to take to the road to explain the benefits of supply management to the international community and to Canadians. The approval rates for supply management would easily be in the neighbourhood of 90%.

Agriculture and Agri-FoodCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Robert Thibault Liberal West Nova, NS

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for his excellent speech. He stood up for supply management and for this motion, which I will support with great pleasure. I imagine that all members will support this motion.

The member now hears government members say that they support the supply management system. However, he should not forget, and nor do I, that that has not always been the case. One could not count on the members from the old Reform Party to stand up for supply management. Now, they support the motion. I thank them and commend them. All members and all Canadians must be on the same side to ensure that supply management is maintained.

He spoke very well about the elements or the messages sent. We are sending a strong message to the international community saying that all Canadians support this system, which is very beneficial for consumers, as he mentioned.

We are also sending a message to our government. The government says that it wants to respect the will of the members of Parliament. The committee is sending the government a very strong message, and we support this message. Better still, this is a message for the farm families and the communities who rely on agriculture.

In my riding, the supply managed sectors of agriculture are doing particularly well, be it poultry or dairy products. But the young generation is concerned. People are asking what will happen at these negotiations. I think that it is important to use article XXVIII to support the three pillars. All members must send a strong message to the international community.

Agriculture and Agri-FoodCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

5:45 p.m.

Bloc

Pierre Paquette Bloc Joliette, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am very glad to know that the Liberal party will support this motion. The hon. member is entirely correct: not only is this a message from Parliament to the international community and to the entire Canadian population, but it is also a message to reassure our farmers.

I will quickly read the first paragraph of an article by the president of the Fédération des producteurs de lait du Québec, Mr. Marcel Groleau. This week, the title of his column is “A disturbing situation”. Here is an excerpt:

While we were waiting for the Doha round of the World Trade Organization (WTO) negotiations to conclude, the issue of limiting the importation of subsidized milk ingredients, without tariffs, became more serious earlier this year. In fact it became so serious that it can be called an unprecedented crisis, and it can only be remedied by legislative or regulatory action by the Canadian government.

The president of the Fédération des producteurs de lait du Québec would not alarm its members without good reason. In my opinion, his appeal is very clear. I imagine that this is also true across Canada. As such, this appeal requires immediate action.

Agriculture and Agri-FoodCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

5:45 p.m.

Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière Québec

Conservative

Jacques Gourde ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food and Minister for the Canadian Wheat Board

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased that the Bloc Québécois wants to defend supply management. Our government also defends supply management. Defending supply management inevitably means defending the Canadian federation.

I do not know how my hon. colleague could explain to Quebec dairy producers, in the event that their dream one day comes true, that they are not part of the Canadian federation, that they have 37.6% of Canadian quotas and will lose a third of their quotas. How would he explain that to Quebec producers? It is unthinkable.

We need Canadian unity in this file and we need unity within this House. Canadian agriculture is going through a very critical time. The Bloc Québécois will have to bear the responsibility for what happens.

Agriculture and Agri-FoodCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

5:45 p.m.

Bloc

Pierre Paquette Bloc Joliette, QC

Mr. Speaker, this will give me the opportunity to explain the approach of the Quebec sovereignist movement to the parliamentary secretary. Obviously, he does not know what it is.

Now that we have organizations such as the World Trade Organization and agreements such as the North American Free Trade Agreement, political spaces no longer have to correspond to economic spaces.

Why was Canada created? Because the British Empire wanted to ensure that all its colonies would be both a pool of natural resources and a market outlet. It built a railway and ensured that development would occur from the east to the west, while Quebec's natural development would have occurred from the north to the south.

Now that we have these international agreements, now that there will be more of them and now that we agree on negotiating them properly—we do not want to negotiate at any cost—political spaces can correspond to national solidarity spaces. There is a reason why, since the creation of the United Nations and the World Trade Organization, the number of sovereign states has been constantly rising on the planet.

It is no longer necessary to have a market that corresponds to our political space. We can have a political space that corresponds to our aspirations and we can trade with the whole planet.

Agriculture and Agri-FoodCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

5:50 p.m.

NDP

Alex Atamanenko NDP British Columbia Southern Interior, BC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his speech. Let us put aside the political issue and get back to agriculture.

Does the member think that we could have access or continue to have access to the WTO market without changing the supply management system? We always talk about market access and the supply management system. Could we have both at the same time? I would like him to explain this to me.

Agriculture and Agri-FoodCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

5:50 p.m.

Bloc

Pierre Paquette Bloc Joliette, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question, which seems to me very important.

In my view, there is no contradiction between Canada’s position on preserving its supply management development model and the fact of calling for the abolition of export subsidies.

The supply management system creates no distortion on the international agricultural market. We decide to produce for our domestic market; we do not export. As we know, until just recently dairy producers exported about 5% of their production.

The WTO decided that this was not acceptable because prices were not quite the same as those at the international level. So the dairy producers themselves decided to stop exporting to foreign markets.

Thus we create no international distortion. The American subsidies, on the other hand, create major distortions, and the Europeans subsidize their agriculture and export all over the world. That is not what we are talking about.

I do not think there is any incompatibility between the Canadian position of abolishing export subsidies and the position of maintaining supply management.

As I was saying in my speech, one thing has to be very clear: agriculture is central for every society. That is true of Canada as it is of Latin America, Africa and Europe. It must be possible to maintain an agricultural system that corresponds to one’s vision of things.

A solution must be found. For example, I have been told that if 6% to 8% of our tariff lines were for the purpose of protecting sensitive products—which would be supply management products—we might have a way out. Calling for 7% to 8% of tariff lines to protect our supply management does not seem unrealistic to me. The Americans are asking this for cotton, sugar and other products. They have the right to do so, it is completely normal, and no one says they are isolated, because they are big.

On the other hand, if we are able to enter into alliances with others who will also protect distinct characteristics in agriculture, I think we will be able to arrive at a very good outcome in the Doha round, one that respects supply management and our own domestic agricultural development. This is true for Canada and it is true for Quebec. It is also to the benefit of all developing countries, since they are in fact the ones that are paying the costs of these export subsidies.

Agriculture and Agri-FoodCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

5:50 p.m.

Bloc

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am extremely grateful to my colleague from Joliette for his support for this motion, but more importantly for the excellent lesson he has given us today so that we are able to understand the situation properly. We have been listening to one of our most valuable spokespeople, who is in fact the international trade critic. In that capacity, he went to Hong Kong in the middle of the election campaign to defend the interests of the agricultural producers of Quebec.

I would like to put this question to my colleague from Joliette, who talked about being isolated. On November 22 of last year, when the Bloc Québécois motion affirming that no compromise should be made regarding supply management was passed, I think that Canada was isolated. In Hong Kong, in front of all the other WTO member countries, Canada was the only one to offer a vigorous defence of supply management, thanks to the Bloc Québécois motion. My colleague was there and I would like him to tell me about it. I can say that during the election campaign we received very positive messages from our agricultural producers in this regard.

How is being isolated, being the only one taking a position, a position of weakness? Today, as we speak, right now in June, that motion is still in effect and carries weight with the other countries. All we did was put our foot down and say that we were adamant about protecting our system. In fact, as my colleague said, the other countries do this when it comes to other issues, or on agricultural questions, but based on how they operate.

The Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food should not be expressing any concern about the possibility that we will some day find ourselves the only ones who want to protect a system. On the contrary, we must not react to this with fear. We must put our foot down, show some backbone and defend the supply management system as the dairy producers of Quebec are asking be done.

Agriculture and Agri-FoodCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

5:50 p.m.

Bloc

Pierre Paquette Bloc Joliette, QC

Mr. Speaker, I again want to congratulate the member for Richmond—Arthabaska. I think he was not here when I congratulated him at the beginning of my first speech. So once again, I congratulate him on this motion and on all the work that has been done.

I think that we would be doing the government a favour if we passed this motion. When they were in Hong Kong, and this was indeed bargained hard, and a compromise was sought at all costs because no one wanted the conference to be a failure, our two Liberal ministers at that time—one has been defeated, the other is still with us—were able to say that the House of Commons had passed that motion unanimously. It had to be understood. As well, we were in an election campaign. This put pressure on them, but also on all of the others to understand that they could not go against a unanimous position taken by the House.

In my view, when the motion was passed unanimously by the House, it strengthened Canada’s bargaining position and that made the job of the Minister of International Trade and the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food easier. I therefore call on the Conservative members to use their common sense and help themselves by voting for the motion.

Agriculture and Agri-FoodCommittees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

5:55 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am very happy to speak to this motion today and I thank the member for Richmond—Arthabaska for raising this question in the House.

As a member of Parliament, I represent a riding with an important agriculture industry, particularly in the dairy sector. In the whole south coast region of Quebec, in Montmagny, L'Islet, Kamouraska and Rivière-du-Loup, there is an important dairy production. There are also chicken and egg producers. Thanks to supply management, a stable and strong economy was established. This is the most important regional economy stabilizing factor we have. It has allowed us to develop a market for hardware stores, to maintain our villages alive and to help the next generation to take over, although it is difficult in agriculture. This is an important part of the economy.

Today, we are living a replay of last fall. At that time, the Bloc Québécois had introduced a motion in the House to ensure that our negotiators, before and after the elections, would protect our management supply system. The position of Canada had to be in favour of maintaining the supply management system. As my colleague from Joliette just said in his speech and during the questions and comments period, we were successful in our attempt. We were able to obtain the unanimous support of the House on this matter.

Up to now, there is an important difference. We will probably vote on this motion at the end of the debate. The three hours of debate will end soon, then we will have a vote. I invite the people from all agricultural areas of Quebec and Canada to check how their member of Parliament will vote. It will be a good test to determine if their member of Parliament is trying to represent their riding in Ottawa or if he or she is trying to represent Ottawa in their riding.

I know people in my riding who will be listening and watching to see whether the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food, for example, defends the farmers in his riding or the federal negotiators instead. We will see when he has to meet with grassroots unions or the UPA members in his riding. Undoubtedly there will be unanimity about the need to ensure that our system is properly protected.

This motion that was made by the member for Richmond—Arthabaska and is now before us was also adopted by a parliamentary committee. A majority of members of the committee voted in favour of it. As far as I know, only the Conservative members opposed the motion and took another position. I do not know exactly which members were present. There may have been more members from the west or perhaps members who are less aware of the issue of supply management and the need to protect products, as mentioned in the motion.

Here, all members will be able to vote. We will all be sufficiently informed. All the Conservative members from Quebec will vote on this motion, and that will have a huge impact. Not only would they be going against the position all the producers support, but they would also be diluting the message this House sent last fall. Voting against the motion will amount to saying that supply management can perhaps be watered down, that Canada can agree to put this issue on the table.

Canada does not have to take such a position in the negotiations that are under way. This House must send a clear message to the government that a committee report was adopted by the House and that the members now want the government to act on the recommendations in that report. That is how we would like to see today's vote go.

In order for people to have a clear understanding of what is involved, let us set aside the mechanics of the motion. Ingredients used in milk production, ingredients in the product, the milk, are currently being imported in large quantities, because we did not make the right decisions in the past. We have a tool—article XXVIII of GATT—that we can use to correct that error. That is the message we are sending with this motion. I will read an excerpt from the parliamentary committee report:

1. That, since all parties have expressed support for supply management—

You see the link. I will continue to read from the recommendation:

—the government intervene immediately in order to maintain the control measures, which are a main pillar of supply management, by limiting imports of milk protein concentrates and all products designed specifically to circumvent the rules of supply management.

When the Conservatives voted against this motion in committee, is it because they repudiated the position of all parties concerning supply management? Is it because they thought the situation was not all that serious and that it was not important? If that was their attitude, today's debate here in this House has shown Conservative members that their attitude in committee was wrong. This situation must be rectified via the present debate.

I remain hopeful, given that, last fall, when we voted on supply management, the Bloc Québécois introduced the motion at the beginning of the day, the other parties rallied together over the course of the day and, in the end, we achieved unanimity, which allowed for negotiations with a firm, solid position and concrete results. I hope to achieve that result here again today.

It is important to understand that this responsibility must be shared equally by people who live in urban areas and those who live in rural settings. Milk is produced, chickens are produced and eggs are produced, all in rural settings. Lastly, production allows for a pricing system that is reasonable, acceptable and that provides sufficient revenue for farmers.

I call upon all representatives in this House, whether they represent an urban or a rural riding. It is important to make the government understand that people do not want the opinions of negotiation experts or bureaucrats. They want the people who represent them to vote to protect their interests. Let us do it so that next weekend, when we go back to our ridings, our voters can say that they are proud of the result of the vote on the motion and of the proposal and they can say that the person they elected voted in favour of the Bloc's motion and the position of the Standing Committee of Agriculture and Agri-Food to close the door to the importation of products that disrupt the milk market.

Everybody must understand that so that we can adopt a motion that will give the expected results. The message we sent last fall has been well understood: we all wanted the supply management system to be protected. However, if we choose the opposite direction and if the Conservative members vote against the motion, we can be sure that that message will not fall on deaf ears at the negotiating table. It would almost be like following up on the visit the chief executive officer of the WTO, Mr. Pascal Lamy, made last week, when he told the Canadian government, Quebeckers and Canadians that they will have to accept some changes to the supply management. By voting against the motion, the government would look as if it were saying to Mr. Lamy that, after his visit, it decided to follow suit and weaken its own position, and that it is opening the door and that the next time, it will yield. That is the message the Conservative government is sending. I personally think that we must avoid, at all cost, sending such a message.

This has an impact in our regions: agricultural producers earn a bit less, so people are forced into disputes with each other because imports are shrinking their market share. Agriculture is already in a difficult position, what with the mad cow crisis, debt and rising interest rates. This is an added difficulty.

Last weekend, I went to talk to people at a supper in an agricultural area. I had a heated discussion with people on the one hand, who love agriculture and have dedicated their lives to it, and those on the other hand, who have dedicated their lives to it and found it very difficult. The latter found that conditions for agricultural producers left much to be desired.

Last week, I also went to the Montmagny agricultural exhibition. While talking to the people there, I sensed their pride in having a strong agricultural community. I also recognized the need for their elected representatives in the House of Commons, the Quebec National Assembly and elsewhere to stand up for agriculture and, especially, to ensure that the regions are in good financial health. In rural areas, when agriculture begins to suffer, the whole environment starts to fall apart.

People are leaving the region. Families are losing control of their farms, and we are moving toward the industrialization of agriculture, which is not necessarily the best path to take.

By introducing this motion in the House today, the member for Richmond—Arthabaska has succeeded in bringing about this debate. At the end of the debate, there will be a vote. I hope that the Conservative members will have taken the time to read the text of the motion so that they have a good understanding of what is before us. It is vital that we close the door on anything that could weaken supply management. This is our first test. I urge the members of this House to vote for the second motion the Bloc has presented on this issue in less than a year.

We are the ones who introduced in the House a motion that is essential to the development and maintenance of a good, solid, rural and agricultural economy. I thank the member for Richmond—Arthabaska, who has enabled us to fight this battle that, in the end, will benefit all of our regions.